Is it significant if TMD doesn't crack 1000 new posts for November

[Zherbus]

Yeah, AmbivalentDuck. I'm not going to pretend that I'm entertaining your post seriously.

[vassago]

But yeah seriously, can we start the deck database?

[nataz]

why? excellent ones already exist.

if someone wants to do something with them thats one thing, but the data itself is already collected on at least one major site.

For workable ideas, I'd suggest having two types of discussion forums. 1 for established decks with proven records, and one for decks that aren't. The "creative" forum is stupid the way its currently set up. Basically its a throw away forum for ideas certain people think aren't very good. it's especially insulting considering how many other places your discussion could go (see the issue with 28 sub forums).

It creates semi-arbitrary categories that divides the community. Hey, I get it - certain ideas DO look stupid, but I'm not arrogant to assume that I'm always right. I can think of a number of historic examples where an accepted vintage theory or card evaluation was simply wrong. We all use our experience as a crutch to determine how and were we spend our time testing/practicing whatever. Thats fine, but we should remember it is a crutch. If you don't want to test something thats fine, ignore the thread. But don't relegate it to the backwaters of an already low populated forum were it is sure to not receive any attention.    

The background "noise" that we seem to want to squash on this forum is the genesis of eventual successful ideas. Why not foster that type of community? Think about how you design decks. Generally speaking decks start with an idea or a concept, and then are continuously improved until either they are junked or they are successful.

Most deck design that I've either been a part of, or observed, follow this path. Rarely do I see an idea good enough that it needs little modification. Normally deck lists start terrible (or mediocre at best), and then constantly evolve. Why not let that happen here?

Out of curiosity, who is the "we" that is involved in changing the forum? Is there a reason why the discussion can't be public. I'm curious to see the logic behind the redesign decisions.   

[Prospero]

I have to be honest, I would post more if I felt like I was not going to end up in a prolonged argument over irrelevant minutiae.  I have made a conscious decision to post only when necessary due to past 'discussions' with certain members.

[LotusHead]

I have to be honest, I would post more if I felt like I was not going to end up in a prolonged argument over irrelevant minutiae.  I have made a conscious decision to post only when necessary due to past 'discussions' with certain members.

I have had the same experience with Salvagers long ago (before Bomberman made it's impact on the meta).

But I did gain something from those "discussions" and that helped me. And for that I am thankfull.

[Zherbus]

This discussion is public. You're taking part in it right now. What I will pull the trigger on is something I'm getting candid feedback from the rest of the staff.

EDIT: Going with the minimalist moderation approach which I've adopted in the old days, what do you all think of that? How well do you think the community self-regulated itself?

[beder]

This low participation may be related to different factors :
1 - TMD interest by itself
  a - The content proposed
  b - The website by itself
2 - Interest of the format,
3 - Number of players playing the format,
4 - Existence of a competitor (online or not)

When it comes to point 4, I don't know any site (or real like event) which could take people out of TheManaDrain.

When it comes to point 3, I cannot say. But I don't feel like this changed significantly over the last 6-8 months. And unfortunately, I can't really see any option for TMD to work on that point. Except perhaps being a Tournament organizer by itself, perhaps organizing online tournament for fun (mws for instance), with a ranking which would just be for the glory.

When it comes to point 2, I can think of one or two factors which make vintage very constrained for the time being : Shop and Ichorid. Those are so consistant and powerfull main that they reduce strongly deck building design option (Shop for main deck and for side, Ichorid for side). Those two archetypes don't really care about opponent deck. If opponent deck does not play 4-8 dedicated hate cards (between main and side), then it will lose.

When it comes to point 1a, I still think that the content is interesting. Some writers provide us with excellent articles (even free ones), most of the discussions are interesting. Again, I don't feel like this changed dramatically in the last 6-8 months.

When it comes to point 1b, TMD admins should have the real answer. Did you notice a decrease in the postings since the change of the website design?

I wouldn't be surprised if so. Like most of other posters, I really don't like that new design. On a usability point of view, the multiplicity of categories requires a huge number of click to access information.
But even more important, on a community point of view,all those categories are like sub communities, which surely does not help exchange and discussion. I definitely think that the old design was much more "exchange/discussion" oriented, when this new one looks like it intends to be a "structured database for vintage information".

PS : and BTW, I agree with what has been said about the "Basic User/Full User/Adept/whatever" system. Even if I don't really think that it has something to do with the decrease in posting, I think this is not a good idea in general.

[Will]

As far as the self regulated minimalist moderation approach goes, I like it to a point.  For the most part it is beneficial but some posters seem to take discussions far beyond the seemingly logical endpoint and need to be told to stop by moderators so our community does not lose more people like Prospero.  Up until the stage where people are choosing not to use the forum for fear of being trolled, moderation does not seem entirely necessary except for when rules are explicitly broken obviously. 

But even more important, on a community point of view,all those categories are like sub communities, which surely does not help exchange and discussion. I definitely think that the old design was much more "exchange/discussion" oriented, when this new one looks like it intends to be a "structured database for vintage information".

This quote from beder pretty much sums up my dislike for the deck subforums.  The subforums seem useful and applicable when there is too much going on for one forum but when the site gets less posters it seems to isolate people.  I think going back to a 2 part (Proven/Developing etc.) would be better to at least try because having multiple subforums seems unnecessary and limiting on contribution. 

[median]

I haven't played vintage/posted much in a while because I've had a lot of legacy for good prizes on my doorstep. The other reason is that sanctioned tournaments are starting up in my area, I don't own power and doubt any discussion I would want would be helpful to anyone else. I still troll these forums and love to read them, one thing I think hasn't been touched on is whats happening with cockatrice and mws. Thats messing with a lot of testing.

[Bongo]

I can only speak for myself here, but these are the reasons why I'm not frequenting TMD as often as before:


1. TMD is boring

Pretty simple. No innovation, no in-depth discussion, seemingly dead boards - I don't have an incentive to read and post in TMD anymore, because there's no productive discussion. I suspect teamboards and secrecy are incentives for player not to post the truly interesting stuff. I have to admit I'm guilty here too, because I don't want my competitors in the next tournament to know my list and strategy.
Even if one posts something, the quality of the replies is not good enough. Really, the only interesting stuff for me in the last year were intelligent posts by Demonic Attorney, Rico Suave, TheAtogLord and Grand Inquisitor.

I know this is a downward spiral here, but I hope you can find something to break this trend. A while ago, TheSource organized a new deck contest, which incentivized players for sharing their tech. The forums were very vibrant because of it. Maybe do something similar on TMD? Maybe other stuff where every team shares its best team-intern post and the winner team will get something?


2. The format is boring

Despite the unrestriction of Gush, the metagame has been pretty stale for the past year. Even if it is not, people perceive it to be that way, which is what counts in the end. The only positive exception has been Brian DeMars with Snake City Vault. Partly because of this, numerous regular players in my area don't attend Vintage tournaments anymore. This results in decreasing tournament attendance, since the influx of new players is slow. Even if there are new Eternal players, Legacy is a lot more attractive for a variety of reasons. Yeah, players might be leaving because they have other responsibilities and things to do, but really, if a format is exciting, one will take the time to attend despite a busy schedule.
The lack of Vintage coverage is also a factor. Though I didn't agree with all of his stuff, Menendian had a pretty big influence in promoting the format. Though less known, I really digged the analytical stuff of Phil Stanton. DeMars and Probasco writing for SCG is a ray of hope, but I don't want to buy Premium (and I suspect most players, too). This leaves Matt Elias, who is the flagbearer of the format in my eyes. I like his articles, but he rarely seems to write about Vintage these days. I also like the articles of Jaco, but like Elias, he often writes about other stuff.

Since new editions traditionally have a low impact on Vintage, changes to the restricted list will probably affect the format more profoundly. So I hope the DCI unrestricts a few more cards in order to rekindle the interest in Vintage. They don't have a lot to lose anyway, since the range of people they affect is so small and an overpowered card can simply be re-restricted.
I also hope that Elias and Jaco writes more Vintage articles, and that the DeMars/Probasco stuff will be free. While SCG Premium has been worth its money in the past, that is not the case in the present, in my eyes (CFB overall just produces better content).


3. Site structure

This has been voiced by some people here, and I agree in large part with them, especially with nataz. The segregration into sub-forums makes sense for a highly frequented site like mtgsalvation, but for TMD, a more simple structure is the better fit. The member status thing is basically cock-measurement and not really a reason why people frequent TMD less. Whether it stays or it changes won't make a difference. I don't think TMD is over-moderated. A nice possibility would be to work together with morphling.de. It would be a lot more convenient if I didn't have to open two different sites each time.
Basically, these are cosmetic changes, which might generate activity, but the root of the issues are the two points I mentioned above (especially no.2 and the decreasing tournament attendance).

[Nehptis]

(3) Perhaps Vintage is moving from a fringe format to a dead format.

That's my feeling, based purely on the fact that the Vintage community like myself has gotten older, and real life responsiiblities have replaced MTG.

The only thing that would allow me to play again is Vintage On-line that is fully supported by WOTC: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41515.0.

So, for the foreseeable future my P9 paper cards will sit and collect dust.  But, hopefully not lose value as collectibles!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Yeah, AmbivalentDuck. I'm not going to pretend that I'm entertaining your post seriously.

I've similarly stopped taking TMD seriously.  It's not "for" anything but tourney reports.  Given the cultural focus on winning tournaments, the team forums guard most of the deck/strategy innovation.  While you could carve out a niche as the place for substantive discussion of vintage, it would require changes that many would find intolerable.  At the end of the day, we've all grown up but the forums have not.  A huge chunk of us have presented our opinions in court or in academic journals, but the discussion here doesn't reflect that level of sophistication.

It is hard to read your posts, much less make sense of them, when they appear to be at a graduate school level.

And this really highlights the core disagreement.  I'm saying "Moderate to make TMD better for scholarly debate" and that means different moderation goals and more "big words."

[TheBrassMan]

If we're talking specifically about the month of November, is everyone ignoring the server-outages?  About 75% of the time I tried to log into TMD this month I got 404'd, and I didn't sit around clicking refresh for an hour to see if it would work.  I can't imagine this not having a huge impact on post count.

As for the rest of the commentary in this thread.  I really don't think TMD is any different now than it has been for the 8 or so years I've been seriously playing vintage.  The quality of posting is about the same, the format is about the same, and site redesigns have happened many, many times, and never have any long-term impact.

Pretty sure Rico and Zherbus hit the nail on the head, "interesting" content just comes down to individuals doing it, there's no forum or moderation change that will change this.  The idea of adding more primer content is great, that's why it's been suggested multiple times in public forums (like this very thread), and the Adept lounge.  The incredibly few people who have stepped forward are easy to find.

[i_set_fire]

If we're talking specifically about the month of November, is everyone ignoring the server-outages?  About 75% of the time I tried to log into TMD this month I got 404'd, and I didn't sit around clicking refresh for an hour to see if it would work.  I can't imagine this not having a huge impact on post count.

Same has been happening to me.  I have pretty much given up checking TMD except at work when I am bored and have the time to do multiple "refreshes". 

I agree with the critiques on the new site format.  I find an interesting thread I want to read and then forget about it since it was buried under three parent categories.  One suggestion I can make is: Tourney announcements and Tourney results.  No need for all the sub categories with location breakdown. 

Kinda funny though that the most active thread on the forum is about lack of activity on the forum

[Sextiger]

At the end of the day, we've all grown up but the forums have not.  A huge chunk of us have presented our opinions in court or in academic journals, but the discussion here doesn't reflect that level of sophistication.

It's a card game made for children. Get over it.  

[nataz]

Kinda funny though that the most active thread on the forum is about lack of activity on the forum

its like raaaaaaaaiiiiinnnnnnn on your wedding day

[AmbivalentDuck]

At the end of the day, we've all grown up but the forums have not.  A huge chunk of us have presented our opinions in court or in academic journals, but the discussion here doesn't reflect that level of sophistication.

It's a card game made for children. Get over it.  

I'm sure that a lot of parents buy their children $5,000+ worth of cardboard to build a Vintage deck with...

[tito del monte]

Well as a perpetual lurker, I thought I would at least conrtibute to thid thread..

I have been reading his board for as long as I can remember - and Beyond Dominia before that. Vintage is (maybe was.. ) the only format I cared about, though I feel like I have been eternally frustrated in my efforts to play regulary by either always living somewhere where no-one else plays and/or only owning half the power. I think there are probably plenty of people in a similar situation to mine lurking on here, wanting to contribute because they care about Vintage deeply, but unable to do so because they can't actually play in a way that will provide meaningful insight to users here.

I've always respected the hardline of moderation on the site. As a journalist, I think taking a tough line on the quality of content is commendable - and I would certainly rather read TMD that the Source which I just find a big old mess... but I must say the redesign which seperated out the decks by archetype has been a turn-off, as has the end of Menendian's articles on SCG. I didn't renew my premium subscription when it recently expired.... and I don't mean any disrespect to Brassman and co. who have taken up the reins; I guess I just bought into what Menendian was doing.

The over-riding thing for me though, that seems to have finally put regular vintage play beyond my reach (and TMD participation with it) was Wizards' decision on the reserved list. I know that's been debated at length elsewhere, so I won't prattle on too much about it. But it just felt like the last nail in the coffin. I was utterly crestfallen when it happened and knew in my heart of hearts that day that Vintage was next to over...

Along with that, competition from another format has robbed me of my Vintage attention span. No, not Legacy, but EDH. I seriously think that the growth of the format and its effect on Vintage has been underestimated: many people saw Vintage (rightly or wrongly) as an almost casual format, where you could make broken plays, and use funky old cards... well, now there is another format to do that, which costs virtually zilch to get into, and has a vibrant community playing it for fun. I'm fairly certain that most Extended or Legacy players now looking for another format to play would turn to EDH, whereas a few years ago Vintage might still have snagged them...

I would be thoroughly gutted if the TMD went down the toilet - it is somewhere online I come to find solace. But I must admit, over the last few months, I have been checking the EDH forum first and TMD second... sad times. :/

A big thanks though to Zherbus and all the people behind the TMD who do keep it going - and to all the people who can and do contribute. We others lurk. But we do care.

[CorwinB]

I also started posting less when the site format changed. First because the articles section (where I loved posting, if only to show appreciation to the writers) was cursed with restricted posting rights for regular members, which was a change I disliked a lot. This change has been reversed since, but I've lost interest somewhere along the road.

Regarding health of the format, my personal feeling is that, somewhere along the road, many Vintage players encounter something they cannot stomach. It may be B&R Management, Vault/Key, the restriction of Brainstorm, having to dedicate too many sideboard slots to beat Dredge, Golems beating face, the Restricted list, proxies, lack of nearby tournaments... In a format with such a huge history and such a low rate of player acquisition, each loss is felt deeply and is becoming harder and harder to replace.

[Schonkreuz]

Regarding the error message if you look at th URL it gives it will randomly be have exta junk on it, just delete everything until you just get www.themanadrain.com. I'm not sure but I think it mostly happens when you hit down on your history instead of typing the URL out.



*also sorry on itouch can't quote

[jtwilkins]

The Basic User/Full User/Adept/whatever system is a bad idea.  Half the Vintage World Champions are basic users.  Half the Adepts are there for what appears to be no reason.  I would just reset everyone to "User" or "Moderator" or "Admin."

Agree, I could give a shit less about filling out an ancient application so I can comment on an article. Half of the articles are bullshit anyway. If the member levels were less full of themselves there would be more posts. Keep the heavy moderation just allow everyone to post.

[Schonkreuz]

I know I just posted but to address the topics question I believe that  November is an awkward month for tournamments. I got back into vintage with the unrestrictions and was saddened to see no tournaments less then 6 hours away fom me. I know Kentucky is a tad far from where most tournaments are held but still, usually I could convince my crew to drive 4 hours away. To sum up my answer don't jump to th worst conclusion, a slow month=less posts.

[Zherbus]

Regarding the error message if you look at th URL it gives it will randomly be have exta junk on it, just delete everything until you just get www.themanadrain.com. I'm not sure but I think it mostly happens when you hit down on your history instead of typing the URL out.



*also sorry on itouch can't quote

Yes, those are bad session IDs. Clear your history/cookies every time a site changes hosts.

[Klep]

If we're talking specifically about the month of November, is everyone ignoring the server-outages?  About 75% of the time I tried to log into TMD this month I got 404'd, and I didn't sit around clicking refresh for an hour to see if it would work.  I can't imagine this not having a huge impact on post count.

I actually haven't been having this problem at all.  Is this something that's widespread?

[Marske]

@Klep,
I noticed it as well, it's easily solved though.

[Zherbus]

If it's a DNS thing, you could always force it into your host file. But these things shake out in a matter of days anyway. Unless your ISP sucks and is slow to update.

[sassfactor4]

1. When the new child boards were added, I stopped checking the site regularly if at all.  This feeling seems to be echoed in a few other posts in the thread.

2. The user system is intimidating to new members, who can't even post in some forums.  Trying to have some elite status in a small community forum seems counter productive to having fresh content.

[TheBrassMan]

500 error, I assumed it wasn't an ISP thing because it happened to me consistently at both work and home.  Even if there's a simple solution (for people who are good at that kind of thing), that doesn't mean everyone is going to go through the steps to fix it - i.e. I'm sure I wasn't the only person who just didn't log into TMD this month, because it was easier not to.

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm open to suggestions. Bring them on, just don't make it a bitchfest.

Also, keep in mind that doing what I used to do isn't terribly likely. We have to make SCG happy and all. I never really had to make anyone happy before.

I have a few.  First, I think that the forums are almost exactly upside down.  At the very top should be Tournament Reports.  Actually, at the very top should be Play Reports- where people post what they actually did at the tournaments, on MWS, or person-to-person playtesting.  Actual Play is the most important part of Vintage.  Pie-in-the-sky pontification about strategy or deck design is useless unless in grounded in actual play.  Actual Play should be the thing we stress the most since that's what helps Vintage's popularity and innovation.

Under an Actual Play/Play Reports forum should go a Deck Design forum.  Decks should not be submitted unless the person submitting it has played it somewhere- tournament, MWS, person-to-person, etc.   This way, we can cut out a lot of the random post-the-idea-off-the-top-of-my-head crap that all too often fills the deck design forums.   In fact, it could be that there is a requirement to link to an Actual Play report in the initial post.  But the decks here should be decks that are meant to be disected and discussed.  The OP should be open to constructive feedback from the other users.  It shouldn't be a place for primers.  They suck all the air out of useful discussion.

Under that can go the Strategy forum.  Links to articles about Vintage and Adept Q&A can be put there.  The two article forums at the top now are redundant and clutter up the site.  One of them is never even used.  If you're going to do theoretical work, this is the place for it.  Untested decks, single card discussions, articles, and so on should be discussed here.

Under Strategy can go the Global Tournament/Conventions/Meet-Ups Anouncements board.  T.O.'s should post the results of tournaments here, not in the Actual Play/Play Reports forum.  This will be helpful because other TO's can look at what successful tournaments did to attract attendance that there is a continuity between announcement and results.  Including them in an Actual Play forum would dilute the play reports and clutter up the space.  Keeping them in the announcement board keeps everything better organized.

Finally, there should be a resources forum.  This is where Wiley's encyclopedia should go along with actual deck primers.  Deck primers in this section should not be open to discussion on deck design.  Primers should only be updated as new sets, unrestrictions, or new innovations come about.  It's not the place for experimentation or feedback on the design itself.  Feedback should be limited to the completeness of the primer or accuracy of claims made in the primer.

I think the Community, General, Issues, Rules, and Other Formats boards are just fine where they are.

Peace,

-Troy

[meadbert]

I actually agree with Troy here.  One of the best ways to get new users is to make the tournament reports accessible and let newbs post about their experience going 2-4.
This could lead to them getting a little help with either their list or play.

A lot of new users are intimidated thinking they need to create some high quality deck before they post at all.

My usage of TMD has been down because I have been playing too much Starcraft II.

Also while attendance seems to be dropping across the county, Raleigh recently hosted a 30+ person tournament which so far as I know is a record around here.