Ultimate Vintage Team 2010

[CHaPuZaS]

We've been celebrating for two years an anual event consisting on the asssistance of the 24-32 best Spanish players of the last's years results.

You can find all the information in this link to my blog, where you'll find how we gave points to each Top 8 player based in its final position and the assistance to the event, the final standings, and all the tournaments (We just allow 32+ players events).

[Iron_Chef]

It's not about me because I don't play that much (and would never expect any votes), so there's no hostility at all my friend. I just think it's pretty dumb to have a USA team (even as a fun exercise that this would be) based on something other than results people have put up in 2010, which means they're actively playing. People like TK, LSV, Bob Maher and others are listed who played Vintage like once or twice this year. That's kind of dumb and a vote as currently constructed is basically just playing to name power and ignores what actually transpired in 2010. People like Jeff Huang (8 top 8's) and Jake Gans (7 top 8's) aren't even listed in the vote. You see where there's a disconnect?

I appreciate the response.  I'll grant you, Jeff Huang flew under the radar for me, since the tournaments he played in had an average of 19 players and for the most part I disregard those events.  It takes 2-2-1 or 3-2 to Top 8 those events, where in an event with 50+ people (looking at PA/NY here) it's a hell of a lot harder to Top 8.  I purposefully left Jake Gans off the list because, while he tears it up with Dredge pretty consistently, his game outside of that deck needs improvement.  Jake, if you read this, don't pop Memory Jar on my turn when we're playing the TPS mirror!!!     I'm not sure if there's a scientific way to measure people's overall performance, though I'd certainly be up for trying to bend Excel to my will and come up with something that analyzes Swiss information along with Top 8 performances along with the size of the tournament etc etc.

As far as LSV, Bob Maher, and other pros who don't regularly play Vintage, I think they would make excellent additions to a "Vintage Team" because they are much better then Magic then anyone who reads this thread.  Anyone who thinks that knowing the metagame counts for anything vs. technical play is just wrong, because I can teach someone the metagame in an afternoon (especially someone who is SMRT).  I def voted for Bob/LSV along with a few others.

-Nick

[voltron00x]

LSV, Owen, Sperling, and Ochoa are not only pros, they're pros that play Vintage.  If you don't think a list of the top 10 Vintage players in the US should start with these guys, well..... I don't really know what to say.

[honestabe]

LSV, Owen, Sperling, and Ochoa are not only pros, they're pros that play Vintage.  If you don't think a list of the top 10 Vintage players in the US should start with these guys, well..... I don't really know what to say.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

anyone else think 10 votes is too many?

[forests failed you]

anyone else think 10 votes is too many?

I think the entire TMD fixation on voting for who is good is too much. 

Besides, the majority of the people voting are hardly qualified to actually know who is actually good and who isn't. 

I've never had the chance to play against Bob Maher--but, I watched one of his top eight matches from champs where he plays Sol Ring into Chalice for 1, and then the very next games Demonic Tutors for Time Vault just in time to play Voltaic Key, AGAIN, into Chalice for one...  He also straight up forgets to attack with Dark Confidant a few times in a game where he has blind Bob flipping up cards on the battlefield.  Not to mention, other contributing factors for his winning the match include him having Lotus in his opening hand both games, and his opponent playing arguably worse than he does.  I'm not hating on Bob, he's a legend and the fact that he went deep just proves that he's so good at Magic that even when he's unfamiliar with the format he can just intuitively play and win. 

You blind pro worshipers are ridiculous. 

I'd take any combination of Owen, Probasco, Shay, Mastriano, and myself and be confident that the team was head and shoulders above any other combination of players that could possibly be put together.  Those four are the only Vintage players I've ever battled that I would consider to be straight up masters of actually playing Vintage.

I haven't actually played against Matt Elias yet, but I'm looking forward to it happening one of these days.  His recent successes, and the fact that he's emerging himself so deeply in the format, I don't doubt that he's destined to become a straight up ringer.

Being "great at Magic" helps, but there is so much specific format knowledge required to be outstanding at Vintage, that if you don't play it regularly and haven't been at it for a long time you can't actually be the best. 

Also, I wasn't on Iron Chefs top eights list, but I have four top eights in the 5 Vintage tournaments I've played this year.  Not so much hot Vintage action up here in Michigan.

the ten most impressive skilled vintage players I've personally ever played against.

probasco
shay
turtenwald
mastriano
sperling
smennen
chapin
kolowith
scott vargas
jimmy mccarthy

















 

[voltron00x]

Just to play devil's advocate, you'd put money down that you, Owen, Andy, Paul, and Rich would beat, say, LSV, Ochoa, Sperling, Chris Pikula, and Chapin?

I mean, clearly those are two all-star teams, but to say that your 5 is "head and shoulders" above a team with those guys is awfully arrogant IMO, regardless of the huge respect I have for everyone in that group. 

And leaving Ochoa off your list is just silly. 

[Rico Suave]

You blind pro worshipers are ridiculous. 

I'd take any combination of Owen, Probasco, Shay, Mastriano, and myself and be confident that the team was head and shoulders above any other combination of players that could possibly be put together. 

You do realize that your list contains more pros than not, right? =p

Anyway, I understand where you are coming from with the bulk of your post.  And while I do not treat polls like this seriously, I do find it very interesting to see how people react to them. 

[Ummmyeh13]

To be fair Brad, Demars' lists contains only one "pro" if we're using the Pro Tour to define such a word...

[forests failed you]

Just to play devil's advocate, you'd put money down that you, Owen, Andy, Paul, and Rich would beat, say, LSV, Ochoa, Sperling, Chris Pikula, and Chapin?

I mean, clearly those are two all-star teams, but to say that your 5 is "head and shoulders" above a team with those guys is awfully arrogant IMO, regardless of the huge respect I have for everyone in that group. 

And leaving Ochoa off your list is just silly. 

My list was of the most impressive player's I've personally played against.  I have not played against David Ochoa or Chris Pikula, therefore I didn't put them on my list. 

I've also never personally played against you, Matt Elias, which is why I didn't put you on my list either. 

I have watched Ochoa play against Sperling and DW and he seems to be very good--but once again, its so hard to judge without actually having to play against him.  I've played against Webster twice at GPs, (extended and standard) and lost to him once and beat him once.  He is certainly an awesome Magic player, and I'm very much hoping to battle some Vintage games against him at GP Altlanta.

Technically every single player on my list has some number of pro points. 

However, the majority of the players were primarily Vintage specialists who are good enough to cross over and have some success on the pro level.  Even Owen, if I am correct was having good success on the Vintage scene before he really established himself as one of the top level pros.  My point was that there is no reason to just assume that because somebody is a face pro, that they are better at Vintage than the players who have literally been playing competitive Vintage for upwards of a decade. 


Head and shoulders is for sure too strong of language, and I shouldn't have stated it that way.  Against the "dream team" you set up I think that all of the players involved are too good to actually say "yeah we'd for sure win."  Obviously, when players are that good the actual cards are going to play a big role in the outcome.  however, I do stand by the spirit of the initial post, just not the language in which I used to say it, in that I do think that if there was an advantage on one side or the other it would be to the Vintage specialists--rather than team super pros.  I don't really enjoy betting on Magic, but given the two teams, if I had to bet on one it would be on team Vintage guys.  So, long answer yes. 

[Rico Suave]

To be fair Brad, Demars' lists contains only one "pro" if we're using the Pro Tour to define such a word...

Owen is fairly obvious.

Shay has been on the PT more than once.

Andy made it on the back of a 2nd place GP finish, though I don't know if he has done more than once.

I don't know too much about the other two. 

Maybe these guys aren't as regular on that scene as a level 8 or anything, but then again I don't think either one has been trying lately either.  I guess that means they're not pros!

I understand what you mean though.  I was just having a bit of fun. ;p

[forests failed you]

Yeah, specifically when I'm saying "Pro" I mean on the train.   To reiterate, everybody on my list has pro points.

[honestabe]

Pretty sure Brassman and Feinstein won a Team PTQ together

[voltron00x]

Brian, I didn't put myself on the list either.  I've seen me play a lot and I probably shouldn't be on the top 10 if we're talking about technical play.

[Juggernaut GO]

Luck plays a bigger part in vintage than any other format.  These "best player" lists are absurd.

[Smmenen]

I honestly don't understand the question.   It sounds like people are interpreting the poll in very different ways, which could generate very different results.   I don't even know what Team USA 2010 would mean.  Is the pollster suggesting that there would be a hypothetical end of the year team World Vintage tournament?   What would the criteria be for selecting such a team in the normal circumstances?   

I've never played against the California Vintage players (Ochoa, LSV, Sperling).   My tournament record against Rich Shay is 4-1.   

[Will]

Before I created the poll with the help of Iron Chef I wanted to make it be a sort of "Who are the best Vintage Players in the USA" sort of thing but Nick and I agreed that this would undoubtedly create problems.  Instead, I tried to phrase it so that it would create less arguments and include less bias from the friends of the people on the ballot.  I will admit that it wasn't perfectly phrased and did not really serve a purpose, but I was more interested in seeing how other people perceived and valued different players especially when there were so many very talented players on the list.