project goldfish --- speed at all cost

[kibbe]

OK so here is my project i have been working on: project goldfish. so when i started this project i had what i thought was a very simple goal: build a deck that goldfished as quickly and consistently as possible. as a goal i set the target turn as turn 2 as turn 3 kills in vintage are not that uncommon. this meant that if the deck had not won by the end of turn 2 i wrote it up as a loss. because of this it means i try to "go off" on turn 2 or before every game no matter what the cards are or my odds of top decking into "the goods" and pulling out the win. in trying to accomplish this goal i knew that conventional deck building with plans A, B, C and protection A, B, and C were all pretty much out the door. if i wanted to get the job done on turn 2 or before there would be no room for "disruption" or counters or anything like that. i was going for it in true goldfishing fashion so anything that wasn't there to make the deck faster/better was out. this in turn  opened up more slots for what i wanted: speed.

so at this point i hope you all understand i am not claiming its a good deck by any means. infact reaching the goal i wanted is turning out to be much more elusive than i thought it would. i thought that stripping away the counter/disruption and replacing it with more draw/acceleration would be the key to going stupid. as it turns out going stupid by turn 2 is stupid hard to do. even in a deck tuned just to do that very thing its just tough to pull it off in a consistant manner. at least for me and my skills anyway.

i will say that because of the shortness of the games(every game is no longer than 2 turns) that i have been able to play a ridiculous amount of games with this deck. and that is why i am now here. i want to see if it can be pushed farther than i have been able to get it. at best i would say i am able to push a win out by turn 2 around 30% of the time. in my head i feel like the deck is closer to 40% but when i try to crunch the numbers its around 30% maybe even a bit under that.

i will now give list of what it looks like now. i will also talk a bit about things that are not in right now and  what else i have tried and liked or disliked in the deck. i will also list a few card that i have not tried at all as well to see what people think of them

project goldfish V x.1

land 12
4 city of brass
4 forbidden city
3 ancient tomb
1 tolarian academy

other mana 17
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox saphire
1 mox opal
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
4 dark ritual
3 elvish spirit guide
1 cabal ritual

mana fixers 9
2 frantic search
3 crop rotation
4 helm of awakening

draw/tutor/win 22
4 meditate
4 preordain
3 impulse
3 see beyond
1 mind's desire
1 ancestral recall
2 grim tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 yagmoths will
2 tendrils of agony

so there it is. it really is as simple as it gets. a 58 card engine and 2 cards to seal the deal. meditate is the real draw power behind the deck but everything sort of plays off each other in little neat ways. helm of awakening is a shot of jet fuel in a combo deck. its not a must see to win but its awfully close and makes like 50% deck better. hopefully all this power and acceleration adds up to enough to win. right now its not happening as consistently as i think is possible. originally i though something in the 60% range was possible without protection but at this point i would love to even see 40%. 50% or higher would be great but honestly i think that 40% might be the limit and i may not even get to that(stupid proability curves ... lol).


and now for all of you thinking why is this or that not in it, well now i will explain a few biggies right away

not in list:
off color moxen - the deck is too "on color" hungry i feel to run these. i have not tested them yet but they don't seem like enough of a punch to really be good. most often they wily be just a colorless mana. that doesn't help me very often when i am close to winning. if they could be on color they would be in there trust me.

chrome mox- yeah it's on color, but not always. plus it is card disadvantage and i need all the help i can get. only cards that do something else that can be game breaking are worth losing ca over. crop rotation getting academy or frantic search untapping TA but give up a card  are 2 examples of game changers. CM just doesn't do it consistently enough. if you would run these then no more than 2 of at most. its just not THAT strong.

vamp, mystical, imp seal and nercopotence- all of these cards are nutty good, but in my deck they are only good when in your opening hand. remember the game ends on turn 2  so getting necro down on turn 2 is not good enough. it has to be turn 1. all but mystical i have tried and taken out they just aren't fast enough if they are not in my hand turn 1. so they are dead cards more times than not. i would run merchant scroll over all of these with necro being the possible exception. it IS busted after all.

Yagmoths bargin- this is a tough one and one that i find myself wanting to put back into the deck. the fact remains this though. if i tap out to cast a bomb like bargin i would like that bomb to win the game. mind's desire does that for me on a much more consistant basis as the free cost of the spells is a huge deal. even if bargin hits the table, if I'm tapped out(which happens a lot actually) bargin is not an insta win. i have died drawing off it looking for a final piece of the puzzle a few times. on that flip side though is the fact that most of my turn 1 wins have been because of bargin(when it has been in the deck) so it definitely has appeal and is probably the card i most often want to try to make room for. for now it is out though

Lions eye diamond- this card is a case of extremes. if its good its crazy good. when bad its awful though. i don't run a full compliment of draw 7's so this is mainly used off a meditate. not on par with bargin but one that if i change other parts of the deck i can see this being more viable and powerful.

memory jar- two words: no tinker. lol it really is that simple. the cc is too high to be worth it in the same sense as bargin. to invest this much mana i need to win. desire just does it more often than bargin or this does as its way easier to continue playing spells after the fact.

time twister, wheel and other draw 7's- i have tested twister and it has been OK. really only good if i can ramp up mana before i twist and in that case i usually can just win before i need to twist anyway. it has won me otherwise unwinnable games but not very often. wheel and others i am looking at right now as draw 7's are the area i have explored the least. these with some other tweaks might push this deck over the edge.

timewalk and vault/key- just plain and simple the biggest engine i have in the deck is meditate and it has no synergy at all with taking extra turns. i think a different deck built around the premise of taking extra turns could work. i have found making things work in a very short timeframe on a consistant basis is really tough but I'm sure doing a "turn" based deck could be done, i just don't know if it would be faster than what i am trying to do. if you push the clock to 3 turns I'm sure this deck's numbers would improve astronomically as would any combo deck, but pushing back anyone else 's clock to where mine is (turn 2) I'm not sure anything is as close as they think. a true turn 2 win is very difficult (scoops don't count BTW). the turn thing might work. I'd love to see list going in that direction, would be pretty interesting i think.

gemstone mine- this was in a previous version as a 4 of. forbidden city in my crazy f'd up game state works much better. city of brass is still the land u want to see first but because i at max will be getting 1 untap step i will only ever lose 1 card to FC. gemstone dies to frantic searching a few times as well. in fact if it comes out and gets used turn 1 and 2 then  you only have one untap with search available. losing land is bad for this deck. now that i am down to only 2 FS i could see using this again, then again 2 FS plus yagwill is 4 FS so even now its debatable. maybe a mix of FC and gemstone?

brainstorm and ponder- ponder i still wonder about but BS is probably out for good. the main reason BS is out is that it puts cards back on top of my library. that maybe great when you are trying to dodge a duress or trying to do neat oath tricks but when you are trying to win on the spot it can be disheartening. what if you have junk in your hand and draw a spell that won't get you past the 2 bad cards you just put back on top of you library? it just isn't as strong a pure draw/accelerate as it might seem. ponder is still worth looking at. I'm not sure i tested enough with it. Preordain is better for this deck than both of these on turn 1 to help set up the winning turn 2. it just is plus as of now its unrestricted and its not half bad as a digging tool as well. kind of a mini impulse

OK i hope that answered a lot of questions. now onto what i have tested as well. i will just do as list with the card and number of copies. if anyone has any specific questions about these cards and my results i will gladly do my best to explain if i can. some of these cards will seem very bad and they probably are. this deck has seen a lot of changes over time. it started as mono black as i though that was the best way to keep the deck consistant. unfortunately it was just consistently not good. then it went to BU without tolarian and then to BUG that it is now. here is the list, its not completely complete but its most of it.

tested(not in):
brainstorm
ponder
lions eye diamond
timewalk
vamp tutor
imperail seal
merchant scroll
yagmoths bargin
necropotence
fastbond
time twister
regrowth
thirst for knowledge
chrome mox(1-4)
nights whisper(2-4)
ambitions cost(2-3)
foresee(1-3)
tolarian winds(1-4)
skeletal scrying(1-3)
tainted pact(0-4)
street wraith(4)
manamorphose(2-4)


tested (in now)
mox opal (1-2)
dark ritual (3-4)
ESG (2-4)
cabal ritual (1-4)
frantic search (2-4)
crop rotation (2-3)
helm of awakening (2-4)
preordain (3-4)
impulse (2-4)
see beyond (2-4)
grim tutor (1-3)
tendrils (2-3)


untested but interested in:
hurk recall
channel
wheel of fortune
dream halls
vault/key or extra turns period
memory jar
undiscovered paradise
forbidden orchard
off color moxen
mind over matter


OK well that's pretty much it. short of going into every card and every line of play that's all i got. i do have a few games written down play for play (all be it with a different version) if anyone is interested in that. it went 6 of 10 for wins during that stretch. actually with a turn 1 kill to boot. most i have ever ripped off is like 6 or seven games in a row winning. gone near 10 in the other direction though. it has its moments of brilliance but its too inconsistent overall.

i originally was going to make this and then try to add a some more playable features into it to maybe make it a playable deck. now i don't think it will ever get to that point. its just not consistently fast enough to be consistently faster than decks that are already out there (ANT belcher tps etc) and those already have backup plans.

so to answer the original question: can a deck be tuned to go off and win turn 2 consistently? right now i have to say no, but that's why its now on here. maybe i am missing something. maybe the logic is wrong. maybe it is doable just not in the manner i am trying to do so. i want to see what some of the best minds in vintage think. let's see if it is possible and then if it is make it practical. lets face it a slowed down Ferrari is still awfully damn fast. lol and i like Ferrari's!

thanks enjoy its a fun deck to mess with,

Kibbe

[Ten-Ten]

Interesting idea except its been tried before. Steve's was capable of turn one goldfish with his Meandeck Tendrils though 
Here are sum interesting reads I highly recommend:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/8884_Meandeck_Tendrils_Primer_Part_2_The_Card_Choices.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/8825_The_Meandeck_Tendrils_Primer.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/12009_The_Fastest_Deck_Ever_By_Far_Meandeck_Tendrils_Revisited.html

[Ozymandias]

Is this actually faster than Ad Nauseam Tendrils?

[kibbe]

ozy- probably not at this moment, no. if u look a % of turn 2 kills i think it would be pretty close with my deck maybe edging ANT out by just a bit but probably not by much at all. i didn't claim it was as fast as ANT but it is fast and looking at turn 2 as the only criteria maybe it is. that being said with the meditates running rampant in it, the deck tends to be all or nothing all the time. if you fizzle then u just die as your opponent will then usually  have 2-4+ uncontested turns in a row. lol not good. anyway MDT makes my current list irrelevant as I'm nothing close to that level of efficiency

ten-ten- thanks for the links. i guess turn 2 is too slow. stephen's list are always impressive as are his articles in general. the funny thing is that my deck suffers from the opposite problem he stated(mana issues). i tend to run out of business spells and fizzle because just run out of things to do. apparently i am running too much land and not enough goods.

even seeing those lists i think meditate, helm of awakening and crop rotation/tolarian can be spliced together into a pretty killer list. i am not going to scrap project goldfish completely but those list just offer so much tech that a redesign is in order. would like to push PGF and MDT into a single hybrid monster. will do some more testing with some of MDT's approaches to the problem and see if i can solve some of the issues that deck see with some of the raw draw power PGF abuses.  anyway thanks for the interest in the deck. i told you Ferrari's were fun!

[kibbe]

lol ok yeah .... wow ... so, um, yeah the Meandeck Tendrils shell is studid fast. i am running a modified version of it but still it's just outright scary fast. i will post the list tomorrow but yes project goldfish just got a whole lot faster. i did stay true to my deck and got all the things in that make it mine but the MDT lists were a great help. they where pretty much spot on as far as what needs to be in there to make something like this even possible. it is very consistant and it is fast, very, very, VERY, fast.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I'm not sure what you're running now, but Meandeck Tendrils was really fast when Ponder and Brainstorm were both unrestricted.  The list I had was pretty straightforward:

4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Repeal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Spoils of the Vault
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Chromatic Star (Darkwater Egg?)
4x Tendrils of Agony
4x Land Grant

5x Moxes
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Timetwister
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Polluted Delta
1x Imperial Seal

I'm trying to remember if I used Chromatic Stars or Darkwater Eggs.  The drawback to Chromatic Star is that it doesn't work under Yawgmoth's Will (because it doesn't go to the graveyard).  I'm sure now you could update it with -3 Ponder, -3 Brainstorm, +4 Preordain, +2 Night's Whisper or something.

Edit: Forgot about Manamorphose.  You could replace the Cromatic Stars/Darkwater Eggs with those.

[kibbe]

don't have time to explain some choices but i wanted to get the list up. will put some explanations up tomorrow but here is the list as of today

project goldfish+MeanDeck Tendrils = Blunt force trauma?

land 3
1 bayou
1 tropical island
1 tolarian academy

0 cc stuff
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox saphire
1 mox ruby
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
3 chrome mox
4 land grant

1cc stuff
4 dark ritual
2 crop rotations
1 ancestral recall
1 mana vault
4 preordain
4 darkwater egg
3 chromatic sphere

2 cc stuff
3 cabal ritual
3 manamorphose
3 helm of awakening
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor

3 cc stuff
4 meditate
1 yagmoth will
1 wheel of fortune

4 cc stuff
3 tendrils of agony

still testing some stuff. again more explanations tomorrow. it's really fun to play. to put it in a way that will put it in perspective you are more likely to lose because you mull into nothing then not go off and win by the end of turn 2. yeah its that fast

[serracollector]

land 3
1 bayou
1 tropical island
1 tolarian academy 1 Polluted Delta

0 cc stuff
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox saphire
1 mox ruby
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
3 chrome mox1 Chrome Mox, 2 Mox Opal
4 land grant

1cc stuff
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 dark ritual
2 crop rotations1 Mox Pearl
1 ancestral recall
1 mana vault
4 preordain
4 darkwater egg 4 Chromatic Star
3 chromatic sphere 4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

2 cc stuff
3 cabal ritual 4 Cabal Ritual
3 manamorphose 1 Vampiric Tutor, 1 Imperial Seal, 1 Demonic Consultation, 1 Mystical Tutor
3 helm of awakening4 Repeal
1 merchant scroll1 Sol Ring
1 demonic tutor

3 cc stuff
4 meditate4 Night's Whisper
1 yagmoth will
1 wheel of fortune 1 Timetwister

4 cc stuff
3 tendrils of agony 4 Tendrils of Agony

I believe you might find this version a little faster, and more consistent.  Repeal is amazing and should not be removed, thus Mox Opal over Chrome mox, and with 20+ artifacts, Opal's ability has yet been a drawback, think of them as mox jet and sapphire #2 and #3.

Ponder and Brainstorm and Sol Ring and LED are a must.

Night's whisper is easy to cast off ritual mana, doesn't require helm or an free turn from opponent like meditate does.  Meditate was good in an era when Mind Over Matter and Academy were still viable, and I don't think either really are now.  

Chromatic Star costs 1 less than the Egg, and produces for sure the mana you need.  For both of these reason i think it is better.

Spoils of the Vault, Demonic Consultation, Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Mystical tutor.....they all find wat you need, and all are cheaper and faster than Merchant scroll.  Thats great.  These should all be an auto include.

timetwister is better than wheel in the fact that it recurs your grave, thus giving more chances for more mana/draw, and it stops random decks like Ichorid and bazaar/welder.

[Tobi]

In a build that is focused on speed, Wheel is better than Twister. You basically don't care about your opponent, wether it is Ichorid or whatever. And having your graveyard filled is important if you run into Yawgmoth's Will, and to get the most out of your Cabal Rituals.

With all the artifacts, Academy should also be included since it just too good. A start with 2 Moxen, 2 Speres and Academy is awesome.
One Mox Diamond could be added, too. With a lot of Cantrips you sould run into a second Land/LandGrant. It helps to discard the land that is preventing you from playing those Land Grants for free.

Something that may also work is to play Infernal Contract. Problem is the mana requirement, but the card draw is very good, essentially turning Ritual and Contract into Night's Whispers.

[Stormanimagus]

For what it's worth, this is the deck I'd play for turn-one-tendrils right now and I think it'd be a fine deck if it weren't for Lodestone Golem making Stax so good. I'm surprised that no one has decided to include Manamorphose as it is exactly the free cantrip this deck needs.


Turn-One-Tendrils

Mana (3):
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Mana Accel (22):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Land Grant
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
2 Crop Rotation

Draw (26):
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Street Wraith
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Manamorphose
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Timetwister

Combo (5):
4 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Protection/Bounce (4):
4 Repeal


Side-Board
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Tinker
1 Myr Battlesphere

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm not sure that Xantid Swarm is better than Duress.  You can potentially go off immediately after casting Duress and Null Rod/Chalice/Meddling Mage/etc aren't prevented by Xantid.

[Duncan]

Is this faster than 0-land Belcher?

[kibbe]

OK first off thanks to all for taking an interest in this project.

as a quick side note i was wrong in the statement i made about the mull/turn 2 thing. i was playing dw egg incorrectly. in my haste to build and test the deck i proxied them up quickly but wrote had the cost/activation wrong. i had thought it was 1 and 1, but infact it is 1 and 2. that makes huge deal. at 1 and 1 its as good if not better than manamophose. at 1 and 2 chromatic sphere is better/cheaper. at 1/1 dw egg the deck was pretty close to 70% turn 1 kills. lol it was gross, but alas i was mistaken. well, i just have to move forward with the deck anyway with what i can.

i understand how good MDT was/is. having a deck to base my mana base off was extremely helpful. that being said, i do think that there is some merit to helm/meditate over repeal/spoils. repeal draws one card and makes 1 or 2 extra mana(sometimes losing mana) at most. helm makes almost every single card in the deck faster. how can a deck trying to win turn 1 not love that? i have not tested repeal yet as i have been trying to make this deck more my own but i have found helm to be extremely powerful. i would encourage anyone who is actually trying this style deck to at least try it. maybe it is strongest in a deck more like mine. i think it could be just as strong in something closer to the original MDT build as well. another not so small side benefit to helm is that it actually could be pretty handy against shops if you wanted to make try to this deck viable

as far as meditate vs spoils its more changing one potentail suicide for another. my deck lists tend to not run as many 4 of's as MDT so the spoils are more risky. in my deck you won't lose because you run out of life and you won't lose because you exile all your win cons. both of these are real possabilities with MDT/spoils but not with my deck. if you lose you lose because you stall and that is the only reason you lose ever. in turn 1 tendrils if your opponent sees the extra turn you lose. whether hey see 1 extra turn or 4 it doesn't matter. so to me meditates upside is better than spoils. think about it: would LONG have run 4 wheel of fortune if it could? yes, yes it would have. meditate is as close as you can get so why not run them. in my current build i am down to 3 with a twister in there as  the 4th 3cc bomb. wheel is better but twister is on color and yes that is an issue sometimes. for now its twister but storm is right, in a vacuum wheel is a lot better. some combo if these 3 cards will end up in the deck but i am still testing to figure out which combination is best.

having played(all be it wrongly) the deck while it was running at 70% turn 1 kills i felt drunk with giddiness(lol even a word?). coming down from that has been rough but i am committed to trying to get this back to close to that number. maybe i can't do it with my mediate/helm engine. i would like to try however and so i shall.

here is my current list FWIW. running around 30% turn 1, and 60 turn 2 (not that turn 2 matters if we can make it fast enough)

blunt force trauma v1.2

4 land grant
1 tolarian acc
1 bayou
1 trop island

1 lotus
4 mox (no pearl)
1 petal
1 crypt
1 mox opal
3 chrome mox
2 ESG
1 mana vault
4 d. rits
3 c. rits
1 crop rotation

4 helm of awakening
2 chromatic sphere
4 manamorphose

4 n. whisper
4 preordain
1 a. recall
1 brainstorm
1 yag will
3 meditate
2 tendrils
2 grim tutor
1 d. tutor
1 t. twister
 

a few notes to anyone interested on potential cards.

top deck tutors aren't good in this deck at all. it needs to be in your hand to be good. i tired running 2-4 STD to help but its not fast enough. merchant scroll while not really a true tutor is still better that the top deck tutors.

mox opal is actually proving to be quite strong, but i would not run more than 2 and probably 1 is the better number.

tolarian is what it is. if you can get it into play it is usually helpful but it isn't as strong in the early developing stages. you need colored mana fast. it's better than tapping for 1 but a lot of the time it is tapped before it can really become gamebreaking. i still think its worthy of inclusion but i am looking for alterate ways to get it into play. explore is a card i am looking to maybe take the place of crop rotation as it cantrips and it's effect doesn't have to be used on the spot. it is one more mana though and that is always an issue

chrome mox is stronger than i originally gave it credit for especially in a deck looking to play 3 colors. instead of 4 i am running 3 with an opal as chrome #4. seems to be working OK. casting chrome with no imprint is a good storm boost. getting 4 in you hand sucks so 3 it is

false dawn is a card i tried as well. it got pearl into the deck but going to five colors is really stretching the mana base(too much for my taste). it's an interesting concept that might work if you put more effort into making FD the focal point of the deck. maybe replace helm with FD?

regrowth i have tried as well. its kind of blah. OK sometimes rather underwhelming most of the time. if you have wheel in the deck it might be a better inclusion in that build

grim tutor i am still undecided about. its a full blown tutor but the cost is rough. really only great when I'm ready to win, otherwise its over costed in this style deck. still worth testing

wheel of fortune should be in the deck, but that makes the deck a full 4 colors and that is really stretching the mana base. if you can figure out how to get the manabase to handle it by all means play this card. I'm struggling on the mana thing as once you go over 3 color things get tricky real quick

perilous research and see beyond i have given a shot as well. see beyond has good synergy with tolarian and crop rotation but it is only replaces itself in your hand. perilous research was OK. didn't test it a ton but it does have a true 2 card draw for 2 mana. has to be worth testing as the sacking can make yagwill pretty ridiculous too

LED is one i am always unsure of. the upside is huge but the down is just as bad. if i ran twist and wheel would definitely include it and may try to get it in anyway. more testing needed here

anyway thanks for the insight from all of you. i am constantly adjusting this deck list to try other approaches and will continue to update as i change/improve the deck.

now a few questions of my own:

leyline of anticipation? i would think this card would be an obvious SB card. lol winning on turn .5 would be something really cool especially against shops. i know it is used in some belcher builds so maybe it belongs here as well

serum powder? hear me out ... if you built this deck around the idea of running these you could probably run a few Anticipation md. might require a complete retool of the deck but maybe .... just a thought

[kibbe]

amduck- umask might be better than both as it is a freebie in this deck as it runs enough black to pull it off

ducan- in the right build yes i think it goldfishes more turn 1's than belcher but belcher is waaaaay more playable right now. to get the resliency that belcher(lol how many times has THAT been said) this deck would loose its speed. this is truely a 56-58 card engine and all parts are needed. take anyway and it slows down. i never started this saying it was better just wanted to see what was possible to see if it was wirth looking at

[Delha]

If you wanted to run the Egg path more viable, you could probably run 4x Helm of Awakening, 4x Etherium Sculptor. Off the top of my head...

4x Land Grant
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Duals (Trop, Bayou, Taiga)
1x Basic Island
1x Academy?
6x LoMoxen
1x Lotus Petal
4x SSG (+ESG?)

8x Helm of Awakening/Etherium Sculptor

8x Chromatic Sphere/Star
6x Darkwater/Shadowblood Egg
3x Manamorphose

4x Ancestral/BS/Ponder/Preordain
4x Scroll/DT/VT/Seal
1x Yawg Will
?x Repeal/Chain of Vapor
?x OTHER DRAW SPELLS

1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils

It's pretty much all about landing a Helm/Sculptor and then chaining Spheres/Stars/Eggs. Something like a third of the deck cantrips, making VT/Seal faster. The mana is probably not explosive enough to get you many T1 kills, but in regards to the original stated goal of a high T2 percentage, I figure a refined version of this might be doable.

Of your starting 7, you will probably burn three cards on landing your Helm/Sculptor. The remaining 4 cards keep cantripping, and as you draw, replace themselves with mana to land Grape/Tendrils.

As with most all-in decks, odds are good you crumble to disruption.

[kibbe]

wow, someone who didn't want to rip the helms out, nice. the eggs are neat but unless you can find away to a way to reduce the activation cost of them they are just too slow. manamophose is far better and the sphere is cheaper to get basically the same effect if not a better.

the idea was to make a deck that was as fast as possible. i did not know about Meandeck Tendrils at the time so i thought that turn 2 was pretty quick. as it turns out turn 1 is more the number you need to look at. having played several variations now using some of MDT tech to help me along i think that looking at a turn one deck is still slightly out of reach, but not nearly as far as i had though when i first started this. these decks are very fast, and fun if you just want something to mess around with.

i did get explore into the deck and have actually been pretty pleased with it so far. i also gave in and have added repeal to the deck. it has its moments but i don't think its an auto 4 of. i think 2 or 3 is more reasonable. maybe its because i have gotten merchant scroll back into the deck and if that is in my hand i would rather search out hurk's recall and really do something really broken rather than just a single trick. i also tried demonic consultation for a whopping 1 game. consult for dark rit and 35 cards later that experiment was over. just too risky for my taste.

well here is the latest version. as you will see i made a few changes, most of which have helped. this version seems to be running pretty smoothly at the moment and i have hopes that getting to 60% turn 1 might just be possible. this is close to if not over 40% right now and i still think it can be better. anyway ...

project goldfish(like PGF name better) Vx.3

4 land grant
1 trop island
1 bayou
1 tolarian
1 city of brass

1 lotus
4 mox (no pearl)
1 petal
1 crypt
3 chrome mox
1 mox opal
1 mana vault

3 helm of awakening
4 manamorphose
3 cro sphere

4 dark rits
2 cabal rits
1 explore

3 meditate
1 mind desire
1 an recall
4 preordain
4 repeal
1 merchant scroll

1 yag will
1 demonic tutor
4 nights whisper
3 tendrils

[Darkenslight]

Would you ever consider [card]Second Sunrise[/card] as a one-of, to get back your eggs, before the EoT for more draw/storm?

[kibbe]

darkenslight- neat trick but seems to be a win more card at best. this deck ususally isn't worried about getting more. what it wants is for the spells it does use to be very specific in their roles. draw/tutor, mana and that's pretty much it. if i can make SS be useful i can probably just win right there on the spot so why would i bother with SS. if not then i have yag will or mind's desire that are already more powerful than SS anyway. plus it's white and that is a tough sell especially with WW in the cost. at w1 i might have taken interest but not at WW1. I'd rather play false dawn and i already tired that and it wasn't all that good. again interesting but not much help

for anyone intersted in have also tried a belchered out list of this deck. i will post it as it is pretty quick and actually in a way more consistant as it is only 3 colors (ugr). before i made the belcher list i was toying with a card that really helps the belch builds but seemed to be working in the tendrils list as well though as a 3 of instead of a full 4. the card: ancient stirrings. i never wrote down a full tendrils list with the stirrings in it but i will get back to the tendrils build at some point soon. when i do i will post a tendrils w/stirrings list

anyway

PGF type b

1 tropical island
1 tolarian academy
4 land grant

1 lotus
5 solo mox
1 petal
1 crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
4 chrome mox
1 mox opal (could easily replace ESG #4 for a second one of these)

4 ESG
3 SSG
4 manamorphose
1 crop rotation
4 ancient stirring

3 helm awakening (this is a PGF deck after all)
4 voltaic key

1 time Vault
2 g belcher
1 emrakul

1 a recall
1 time walk
1 time twister
1 wheel of fortune
1 tinker
3 dream cache
4 preordain


i have also be thinking of running the single burning wish and putting yag and desire in the sb as well as some other wishable targets. haven't really tested this at all yet just an idea at this point. somethink like this as a tool box

1 mind desire
1 yagwin
1 tendrils
1 twister/wheel etc, etc, etc

might not be a bad way to go as the deck doesn't NEED yag will to win but it can help. just a though ....

[Ripcord728]

Why not 4 crop rotation, and make it really Academy?  Lots of good unrestricted cards for Academy these days: Time Spiral, Frantic Search, Ideas Unbound, Candelabra of Tawnos, Mox Opal...

[kibbe]

ripcord- because honestly academy is not that important to the deck. it runs enough acceleration through rituals/artifacts that putting in the necessary cards to make it really academy themed would actually slow the deck down. I'm shooting for turn 1 and that means only one tap of a land and that might mean only 1-2 mana off tolarian. it could be for 8 but counting on that isn't realistic. i think tolarian blue could be strong right now(ug especially) but not as a turn 1 deck and that's what I'm shooting for currently. in my belcher build i could see going to a 3 crop rotation set up as the deck is more streamlined and focused. in that version with so many more artifacts running around academy does get much more powerful so its worth trying to fit a few more tricks in to work with it.

OK so i went back to the standard tendrils approach and i do think tendrils is better at ripping turn 1 kills. its still not that impressive a number currently but i will continue to work at it. i tried ancient stirrings again in the tendrils version and its not that impressive(though it really shines in the belcher version) so i have moved back to something closer to what i had before i tried belcher.

anyway

PGF type toa Vx.5

1 trop
1 bayou
1 tolarian (lol it is good just not worth basing this deck around with the 4 crop rotations)
4 land grant

1 lotus
5 solo mox (i still think pearl could be something else but it was working well with 5 so i left it that way)
1 petal
1 crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
3 chrome mox
2 mox opal
4 dark ritual
1 cabal ritual
4 manamorpose

4 chro sphere
4 helm of awakening
3 repeal

4 street wraith (i go between these and preordain. they don't work together at all so it has to be one or the other. right now its the wraiths. free is a good thing  right?)

1 a recall
3 meditate
1 wheel of fortune

1 demonic tutor
1 yag will
4 nights whisper

3 tendrils

anyway there it is. don't have a ton of testing on it but it feels pretty good. still trying to work on this deck as it is a fun project

[kibbe]

OK so been awhile since i posted on this deck, so just thought i would updated on the progress I'm making. to be honest i felt like i had pushed it about as far as i think it was going to go with the card choices i was making so i decided to set the deck down for a bit and try to find some inspiration from some different sources. so where did i turn? legacy. after noticing that legacy was not restricting LED or lotus petal i figured there had to be some pretty mean combo builds out the just blatantly abusing this type of acceleration and i was right. combo may be stronger and faster in legacy vs vintage and that is just down right scary. the deck i was drawn to was Spanish inquisition, more specifically the pact versions which are faster but more risky(this is still a project goldfish deck right?). of course me being me i had to change a few things to see if i could make it more fitting to my style of play. i ended up gutting one of inquisitions key elements in the long run. it really abuses culling of the weak to help the acceleration of the deck. for me that always seemed to situational as the deck also only ran as few as 6 creatures. even with the pacts that just doesn't seem consistant to me. so i took it out but kept the draw 4 package(4 infernal contract, 4 cruel bargins) along with some other staples of the deck. anyway the end result is that these types of decks in legacy are legit hitting 60%+ first turn wins some claiming as high as 80%. i know that seems really high but after playing my version for a while now i believe it to be possible as mine is over 50% right now and I'm still tinkering with it.

so whats the point? i know its not vintage but it does get me thinking if a vintage Inquisition deck might be faster than the legacy builds. i look all over and couldn't find a good vintage build anywhere. people seem to think that infernal tutor isn't that great if you don't have the 4 LED to empty in response. well after playing my version i know for a fact that the deck empties its hand pretty easily without the LED in play at all. so i will post my legacy list up here for anyone interested in that list and also to get some ideas flowing for what a vintage Inquisition deck might look like. at some point over the next few days i will sit down and make an attempt to build a vintage build but for now i still trying to learn the subtleties of this type of deck in legacy so i am better prepared to know what i am looking for in the vintage build as well.

as a side note to anyone who has played SI in legacy how do you guys not run more slithermuses(freaking busted BTW def gonna be in the vintage build)? i find it to be what i tutor for almost 100% of the time unless i need tendrils to win. it nets you the most cards and can either be used as fodder for culling or just evoked to do the job anyway like my version does.

Spanish goldfish

1 bayou
1 city of brass

4 LED
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox

4 land grant
4 summoners pact

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 ESG

4 infernal tutor
1 living wish

4 infernal contract
3 cruel bargin
3 slithermuse
4 street wraith

4 duress
3 tendril

well there it is. probably not what you were expecting if you have played SI before but it is awfully fast in this version. i think its over 50% maybe more as i am still new to the deck. anyway as far as vintage goes will it be a huddle to get past not having 4 LED and 4 petals? most definitely but there are just so many busted cards in vintage that i can't see it not happening. will it be faster than we were before? my hunch says yes but I'm not sure by how much. might just be a % point or two faster. it could be 20% faster, time will tell but the cards that this deck has exposed me to make me feel getting a turn 1 deck in vintage might still be possible after all.

just to put it out there i have not tested the cullling builds. i went straight into my own versions. before i make the change back to vintage builds i will test the creatured versions of SI to see if they are better/faster. I'm all for making decks faster and i have been wrong (lol a lot) before so it would surprise me to see i was going about it wrong.

anyway happy comboing!