5c Staxless Stax

[Bomberman!]

  Here it is, the 5c staxless stax thread!   
I wanted to open this thread since i see this deck as a real competitor for the current meta (gush,oath,tezz,ichorid,Mud).

 Let's go with the Decklist and my card choosing:
STAXLESS STAX

4 Mishra's workshop
4 Wateland
4 City Of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian accademy
1 Strip-Mine
1 Bazaar Of Baghdad

17 Lands

4 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Gorilla Shaman

Creatures 10

5 Mox
2 Mox opal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere Of Resistence
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere
1 Memory Jar
2 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Chalice Of The Void

Side:

3 Sylvon Replica
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Chalice Of The Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic Of Pregenitus

   I like my Stax not 2-3 or 4...but 5 colored...why? well because playing 5 colors i can have an answer for pretty much anything that comes at my way, the only thing though is... you have to be preprared. i have a silver bullet for everything, i tried at some point or another to remove one of those cards listed above but found myself sometimes stranded since i could not find the right answer even having a tutor in hand to get any card i wanted.I like to have this concept with Stax.."Having threats that can be also asnwears to win the Game"    But WAIT!!!!  I know... i'm sure you are missing the SmOkEsTaKe  and want an explanation before i right anymore... ok, so here we go.  Like "iamfish" once wrote...

"There is a new card coming out in Coldsnap.  I’ll tell you what it does and then you can tell me if it is good in type 1.

It costs 4 mana(More than Yawgmoth’s Will, Necro, Tinker, or Thirst for Knowledge)

When you play it, here’s what it does:
NOTHING.

You pass the turn.  On your opponent’s turn it does:
NOTHING

You take your next turn.  You put a counter on it.  Then, guess what it does:
NOTHING

You pass the turn.  On your opponent’s turn(now four turns later) it does:
The worst Misguided Rage ever. (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=24852)

Okay, big deal.  You spent 4 mana, four turns, and a card to make your opponent sacrifice his worst permanent.  It can’t get worse, can it.

On your next turn, you sacrifice a permanent as well.  Ladies and gentleman, this card is worse than Misguided Rage.

Are you ready for the real surprise.  As the more astute of you have already noticed, this is not a card from Coldsnap.  On the contrary, it is a card you all have already been using without questioning its merit: Smokestack.

Yes, I am using this forum to suggest that Smokestack is a hands-down terrible card in type 1.  I will continue my argument and submit for critique a deck discussion about a Staxless build I have been tearing up type 1 tournaments with.

First, and foremost, let me seemingly go back on my word and so that Smokestack is not unusable, but rather just too much of a situation specific card.  Consider that you are on the play versus a Control Slaver deck and you keep a hand including Mox, Mishra’s Workshop, Crucible of Worlds, and Smokestack.   This should put you in a very agreeable situation, assuming the Smokestack is not Force of Willed.  One would argue that this is the primary reason why the card is good.  Here are the flaws in the argument.

1.)   The matchup has to do with the quality of Smokestack.  If the deck you were playing against were Ichorid, Fish(or some other deck with Wasteland to hit your Workshop and keep Crucible off the board), GrimLong or some other Combo deck, or another Stax deck, you might have an advantage, but certainly not a lock.
2.)   Decks like Control Slaver or Gifts, the two decks that this first turn play is best against, can still very commonly handle this draw with a Force of Will, a first turn Welder from CS or a Mox heavy hand from Gifts.
3.)   Thoughtlessly claiming that a card is good because it can be part of an early lock makes the following other cards “good”: Nether Void, Possessed Portal, Rule of Law(against Combo), Stasis, and Land Equilibrium.
4.)   Thoughtlessly claiming that a card is good because it can combo with other cards, like Stax with Crucible or Goblin Welder, is true, but weak.  When you combine two cards in Type 1 they should do things like, Tinker into Colossus, or Weld in a Mindslaver.  Basically, I am surprised that people get excited about being able to turn Smokestack, from “each player sacrifices” permanents to “your opponent sacrifice one thing each turn.”
5.)   Without a card to combo with Smokestack, in most matchups the card is nothing spectacular, falling just above the line of symmetrical.  Type 1 cards need to be a little bit better that “just above symmetrical.”
6.)   Most importantly, Smokestack is a very suboptimal draw mid to late game.  The card offers an out if played early, but after a few turns, its effects are not felt unless the game runs for many, many more turns.

It is for these reason and more that I would suggest that Smokestack is simply a great sideboard card against Control decks.  Unfortunately, this is not much of a claim, as there are plenty of control deck hosers out there to choose from."

Card Choices:
 
  This was wrote back in 2006, but i still see that it can still apply in this current meta. Especially NOW since MUD has shown up in dominance, and people are packing allot..I mean ALLOT of artifact hate. I started thinking to myself how i wanted cards that could react to things like ancient grudge and nature's claim... cards that had impact on the game as soon as they touched ground.


 Every Stax deck I have ever seen (besides UBA stax with the bazaar engine or B/R confidant engine) has the big problem of not having a solid draw engine. I i went to work to solve this problem. I tried everything! every color spell i could think of..but nothing worked. Then one day i had the brilliant idea to add the Sensei's so i could smooth out the top decks, but realized i missed the shuffle effects... then came another brilliant idea to add more crop rotations to shuffle and at the same time use it as a fetch land and to play bazaar/strip to have the game sealed... In theory the concept sounded really good with 4 chalice and sphere to slow the game down, have 4 crucible to give it that strip consistency. It did not work since adding all this stuff also makes you loose some other cards that at times can save you from a tough spot.
   So i went back to basics...

4 Tangle wire's:   They play the role of "Time Walk"... add in an active welder and  those 4 turns can become almost 6-7 turns. I would never dream of playing less tha 4.When played it does something immediately,It keeps Fish’s creatures at bay, and also that horrible card "MANA DRAIN" and heck...even that pesky "Spell Pierce". when played with sphere it usually makes all you spells resolve easily 

2 Chalice of the Void:   Is it a maindeck, sideboard, or neither card? from testing...i see it as a card that has to be main and side...so it's obvious how i play only 2 maindeck. This is not MUD, most of my spells cost 1-3-and up. setting too many  chalice's hurt's you sometimes more than it hurt's them. Chalice is a solid card on the play, but on the draw on the draw you are purely reactionary...so if you are lucky enough to get it in hand good, otherwise at mid game set it at 2 to cut off hurkyl-thorn-fish creature's-mana drain... and the list goes on and on.

2 Mox Opal: Thank you GOD! 5c stax plays 5 color mana base, which at times gives you a shaky mana base involving shops and a thick five color assortment of spells. So back then i used to play 2 relics, but now this card takes it spot since we play enough artifact's to not worry about it's metalcraft ability. I play 2 since i would first need to figure out what else to take out to find room for other 2, but it's leggendary...so..   


2 Wurmcoil Engine: Oh yes! the big bad WURM!!!!  He is the MAN of the deck... that card that saves me from fish.  my main concern when playing this deck was the 50% chance of loosing to Fish deck's. but now adding in the Wurm i see my possibility's rise 60-70% once he resolves.  he gains life, kills the goyf...and most of all laughs at the quasali ability. Not to mention the horrible situation that Mana Crypt/city has put all of us where gaining some life is mandatory.



SIDE:
 At one point i almost gave up on this part. The advantage of playing a 5c deck is the ability to have a wide veriaty of cards to chose from to battle other decks, the problem though is having too many ideas and trying to fit them all in a 15 card slot.

My main concerns were Ichorid,Oath,Mud and Fish.

3 REPLICA:   Biggest concern was Oath, i liked the ray of revelation...but also love playing chalice at 2. ok, so next came nature's claim which could also be used to play against MUD, but only one problem occured...MUD loves playing chalice at 1 against me, or having that thorn in play followed by a lovely waste 
Then i read a Report by "Punki" and saw the Replica, i never gave it a thought, actually i really did not like it...until i tried it and saw the result's. I'ts artifact,can be played first turn with workshop, a 1/3 body, can do nice tricks with welder, chalice at 2 or 1 does not hurt,can be put in an oath as well as a Mud match-up... oh did i mention it's an artifact that cost 3?

2 Chalice: For the  "On the play" against pretty much any deck.  does wonder's against the TPS match-up.

3 Relic's/2 Tormod's:  For the Ichorid match i figured the 2 tormod's/3 relics. leyline was not consistent, and if bounced i had no way to put it back in play right away..relic's/crypt are artifact,cheap, and reusable with welder.


Since i saw allot of threads on different Stax/Mud decks, i wanted to maybe get your interest in a deck that for the current Gush-Control-Mud ..meta has a very good shot at being a tier one deck.
 I'm sure for the people that will try to play this deck it will feel really different from other builds since this deck is allot less aggressive compared to other Stax deck's that are available, but i guarantee that with enough play and practice this does bring in result's.  (Modify it depending on Meta)



-BOMBERMAN-

 

[TheShop]

These are the same played out arguments against smokestack that have been refuted since 2004 by 6 years of tournament history.  Want to talk about a different deck: aggro is a different deck...using inferior lock spells doesn't constitute a new or exciting deck.  This is an old failed idea.  It existed when Chang used smokestack and won...it existed when Cron won...Vroman even commented on how he didn't understand how a deck with so few locks wins...then he made history while they didn't....

Even more bluntly:  I am not a fan of the new direction several people seem to be taking 5 color-these decks have no real lock or answers to combo and an insufficient clock...they only beat MUD/fish and only then by running redundant destruction spells.  These cards are dead in all too many situations.

These will prove to be a flash in pan like so many other decks that only work in a single meta.

EDIT:  that iamfish quote didn't prove true in 2006 any more than it does now...cutting crucible is even more egregious...play aggro with no components or play locks with components...but removing the core deck components for cards like ratchet bomb is clearly a poor choice(historically and otherwise-we had powder keg then too...)

EDIT2:  because I hate the "that's just wrong" without a reason response...smokestack does do something during all those turns-it lets your opponent know that the end of his world is approaching...never forget that stax functions in a decompressed game.  This card wrecks on first turn...or any other turn in which you are effectively doing your job and dragging out the game.  It is land destruction component 5-7 behind your 3 crucibles.  Anyone who wants to lock the opponent and not use stack or crucible is really not playing stax because they have given up on stopping their mana production.  This creates a brand new problem..you are now playing a deck that needs to react to all threats without a draw engine and with less tutor power than the typical opponent.  Inherently, the opponent has the upper hand here.

Admittedly, not all decks running a workshop need run smokestack(aggro or combo).  However, the idea that this card itself is poor is utter trash and completely impossible to support with historical results(and guess what, we have seen this meta before).

[Bomberman!]

  This is my new way (an upgrade) to view and play stax. I would lime to' know your results with staxless...maybe give me some advice on my weak spots... =)

  I go on my current results and not history... By this, i mean that when i play staxless i win far more than when i played with smokestack. I started a staxless stax thread so it was only obvious to explain why i don't play smoke..i have no problem with that card since i too have fun playing it. But i like i said i see results with staxless, can't do nothing about it..  Maybe i'm just lucky who knows.. Or the noob oppo?

My main reasons not to play smoke are written above, we just have different opinions.

 The reason 5c stax is still around is it's ability to adapt to any style of meta..whichlike i said at the current moment where i play it's filled with mud,fish, control.. And from the way things are going i'm gonna keep my ratchet bombs and wurmcoils...from the moment things start to change, ill most likely readapt and make other changes as well.

[punki]

Theshop has several good points. But it's a mistake assuming 5c beats MUD n fish and loses to blue n combo. I actually find my blue matchup better than the MUD match.

It does have a much worse combo matchup than MUD or monored, at least my version does, staxless might actually be better against fast combo because smokestack against ANT doesn't quite get there.

As for the arguments against smokestack: read that piece before, it sounds logical, but it fails to akknowledge that after those '4 turns' smokestack is so busted it wins you the game in most cases.

I have a problem with theshop's remark that 5c does not have a real lock. Against every deck: tez, oath, mud, fish, aggro, ... I manage to get them without permanents and then tutor up a (trini)sphere and I have a hardlock. Having tutors ensures you get a hardlock, where with monored and MUD you relie on a good openinghand, not getting to much key pieces countered or destroyed and a few good topdecks to stay in the game. With those decks you need a fast and good start and keep ahead, where 5c can affort to fall behind a bit and still come back much easier than MUD and monored.

I do agree MUD (and monored) have more ways of having a broken start, more redundancy in lock pieces. But the fact I win consistently against blue control and against combo without chalices and with only 3 resistors and a trini proves to me you do not need that many lockpieces.

I do think 3 crucible are needed at minimum to maximize chances of striplock (my no1 wincondition in playing the deck) SMokestack in my opinion is neede to make up for the lack of so many spheres. You can get mostly 2 and often only 1 sphere into play with this deck. If you let the opponent build up mana, you might as wel play no sphere. You denie them mana with strip-crucible for land, monkey or ratchet bomb or null rod for the moxes and you need the smokestack to help you here.

played correct smokestack takes out any permanent, if you have no removal for a certain creature, enchantment or planeswalker, destroy the lands and moxes and let smokestack take care of the rest. I let Bombermn convince me to run 3 smokestack in stead of 4 (seen that in other succesfull lists too) and ratchet bomb is a very nice addition to the deck (in my meta empty the warrens is making a comeback) I have cut mox opal because it takes the place of a lockpiece and I find I do not need it to have a solid manabase.

I would replace the maindeck monkeys with ancient grudge, ratchet bomb takes out th moxes, grudge takes out bigger artifacts and takes out null rod so ratchet bomb can destroy the decks running null rod

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

By that logic, dark confidant is functionally a 2/1 wall until the third turn, and oath is literally nothing for the same time duration. The way I look at smokestack is: your opponent has one turn unmolested by it. Then it is eating their resources or when they’ve expended their valuable resources to do. Obviously vs shop your resources and what you do with them is more valuable than normal. If you’re looking at smokestack as a component of a hard lock, from my experience, you’re doing it wrong.  Although it certainly has the ability to do that, it is just fine at causing major tempo headaches putting major spells out of read and eating those waste proof fetch lands.
You have to also keep in mind that when you're playing prison, your opponent’s turns are ideally worth less. From this point you could make the argument that smokestack is win more, but in a lot of games I’ve played with it, it’s been “literally the only card that can win me the game.”

Also on your ray of revelation vs chalice at two. You’re talking specifically about oath, you’re not going to want to play it until your cotv @ 2 is gone anyways for that match up so I wouldn’t consider that a factor. Being able to nail artifacts with replica is relevant, so you might nail a time vault here and there and swing at jace which is fine I guess. However, I still don’t like your match up against the other shop decks out there with more robots, more lock pieces, and a better mana base. You might steal game one off a welder, but game two after the dupes, trikes, and robo-dragons confidence is low.


I'd also like to echo the shop's comment about literally reading the anti-smokestack argument years ago. People kept playing smokestack because it proved mechanically useful despite the theoretical arguments. In this case theory, being to tool to achieve mechanics, must yield to results. From what smokestack is by no means an auto include but I see most winning list running it.

[Bomberman!]

   Beside's that old article on smokestack, i had to put my reasons why i don't play smoke. Especially since i now that with out this card i would make allot of people skeptic on the deck.  If you guys say that this deck does not work without smoke, i can tell you right now it's not the case. I opened this thread since playing with this deck i see result's and so wanted to share with any stax player a new way (let's call it this) to see and play 5c Stax.
   
 My main reasons why i took out that card was for the current meta. Back in 2007 when gush,merchant, and brain ruled everything i took Iamfish advice and tried this new architype....and infact worked and i took home a nice mox sapphire. Now that the meta is kind of same but slower, i thought to myself why not try it again? and my result's look the same as back in 2007.
the printing of nature's claim and the main deck inclusion of trygon,ancient grudge made me want to quite with the smoke play since they would have a whole turn to do there buisness and when finally i would put a counter...i would see it in the grave  -.-''

Now, do i hate smoke? nooooo! do i feel like playing it now? no.     it's just a meta call.

  Ok now on the chalice and Ray...like everybody we only have 15 cards in the side. So i wanted to fit not only cards that can effect just one card or one particulare situation, but in other ways. so ray only answears oath, but maybe that oath player has a voltaic key,black or vault and so ray becomes useless.   Replica hit's almost anything, spell pierce can't touch it and you don't need to save up that 2 mana for ray since you can play it, attack and just wait and be reused with welder. Not to mention thae whole prob of chalice at 2 interfirence. If i added the rays, then i would only have 2 grudge against the Mud match.

i though at first the samething, but i can assure you that it's not the case.   this deck holds it's on against the MUD match.

[TheShop]

From a list analysis standpoint- winning 5 color lists hve traditionally run 16+ lock pieces on average while MUD or red looks more like 20-24.  The list above runs around 15, so winning would not be out of the norm here.  That said, the list has less reccurable or permanent locks, and that is my foremost issue with it.

@punki : I haven't had the chance to look at your list recently.  If you are playing against a lot of MUD, then maindecking hate that would normally be in the board makes sense. If I remember correctly though, your deck had a lower chance of playing an early lock than usual.  I played Mud vs 5 color last weekend with a friend and spheres were predictably terrible so I understand why you run so few.  I still have issues with playing consistent locks early vs a blue opponent.

[punki]

@punki : I haven't had the chance to look at your list recently.  If you are playing against a lot of MUD, then maindecking hate that would normally be in the board makes sense. If I remember correctly though, your deck had a lower chance of playing an early lock than usual.  I played Mud vs 5 color last weekend with a friend and spheres were predictably terrible so I understand why you run so few.  I still have issues with playing consistent locks early vs a blue opponent.

Well my list just gets worse and worse 
reference: with this one I went 5-2 at German Magic:

5mox
lotus
manacrypt, vault, sol ring
4 shop
4 waste
1 stripmine
1 tolarian
4 city brass
3 gemstone mine
0 mox opal

1 bazaar of baghdad

4 welder
1 sylvok replica
1 sundering titan
1 wurmcoil engine
 

2 Uba mask
2 ancient grudge
demonic
2 crop rotation
vampiric
ancestral
tinker
4 tangle wire
3 smokestack
Trini
3 sphere resistance
3 crucible
2 ratchet bomb

SB
2 duplicant
2 sylvok replica
2 REB
2 nihil spelbomb
1 ancient grudge
2 T crypt
1 In the eye of chaos
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 bojuka bog
1 arcane lab

It's obvious I still face a lot of MUD, So I keep running maindeck ancient grudge. It also takes out null rod against fish so ratchet bomb can take out the rest of their board and it's nice against time vault decks as a surprise removal spell.
I'm with Bomberman in that you do not need that many lock pieces for a stax deck to work well, But in that case it's more played like 5color control (especially the staxless one I think)

I completely agree with you that from an analysis of the deck you would conclude it is crap against blue decks and against combo. I have been playing stax with a lot of lockpieces in the past, I've read all of Vromans and the jester's posts about stax a few years ago and I learned to play shops by their golden rules of minimum number of lock pieces and mulliganing if you do not have a relevant play in the first turn and can follow it up with more pressure.

However since then shops have become much more played: Golem and more proxy-tournaments made the archetype bloom and I find myself playing too many mirrormatches with too much randomness. So I made the deck so that it would have less dead draws in the mirror. In the last tournaments I won the matches against blue and combo, but I have to aknowledge I played more games against MUD, fish, ichorid than against typical blue decks or combo decks. And I do believe I win those matches because of the original build and mistakes made by my opponents that have been too conditioned playing against 10+sphere.deck.

So I completely agree that Bomberman and I are playing bad decks. In a vacuum and based on the lists there are so many sub-optimal choices. So I kinda gave up on posting lists and arguments for or against certain cards, because the nay-sayers are right. But in the system that a magic tournament is, the deck becomes playable and sometimes even quite good. There is a lot of raw power in the deck with all the restricted cards, you can still have openings with a sphere followed by striplock, tangle wires that just keep coming with welders, uba-lock, ... in the early game and you have more of a mid game if the early game doesn't turn out like you hoped (like opponent starting with 3+ mana turn one and/or with counters for your first two lock pieces.

This does need a certain meta that is slowed down by MUD being very present, making blue players play more mana and answers to MUD instead of more threats and winning turn 1/2 and combo-players running decks like gush or TPS instead of ANT.

I also don't think Bomberman or I are trying to convince peaople 5cstax of staxless are the best decks. Because obviously they are not. I will never play staxless in a mid-game deck like this, but I will not argue against it, because I used to believe I needed a first turn play, where I now found I win a lot of games starting with mana - go, welder - go or crucible - go, where in the past I would mulligan those hands because of no relevant first turn play. So maybe I'm wrong about still playing smokestack?

My final point is: don't evaluate this kind of deck as a pure stax deck, see it as 5C control with a good stax matchup  So suited for certain meta's (But I do not mean no proxy meta! I mean a meta where MUD is an important factor and fast combo like ANT is very unpopular)

[TheShop]

I did not use the term bad(or at least i don't think I did).

I am not sayin the deck is bad, I am saying that it looks extremely reliant on the MUD soaked metagame.  Objective power really shouldn't be an issue, but I am always fearful of sitting down against an unexpected opponent rocking drains or the like.  I don't enjoy playing TheDeck.  I think it was Mark Twain who has the quote that every word of a short story should contribute to the main theme. (rough rough quote).  The theme of this 60 cards is the interaction between your permanents that culminates in a game of solitaire.  If a card doesn't aid that end, discussion should happen about that card.

I can speak for you though, by saying:  in the mud meta, my cards do aid my lock. 

But I can also speak against by saying that cards like Wurmcoil or choices to cut locks detract from the goal of the deck.  5 color is a combo deck that seeks to put 3sphere + smoke/crucible in play and make them stick to win the game.

I see both sides, honestly, your deck is similar to great past builds in many ways, like:
+1 sylvok
-1 seal of cleans
+1 grudge
-1 swords
+2 ratchet
-2 gorilla shaman

Nothing new under the sun, and probably good in the meta in which it functions.  If 6 months from now we are overwhelmed by GAT...this deck will be much less effective than a similar deck packing more mana denial.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I didn't say not to run replica, I even admitted that it can hit key vault, and swings and junk, just pointing out that the chalice of the void/oath/ray thing didn't quite make sense (you don’t need your oath hate if oath is going to get countered by cotv anyways).
You also said you were looking for some draw/card quality solution and mentioned top. Then said you missed the shuffle effect. Years ago I top 8'd an icbm open with a shop build that was pretty wacky for the time. It ran two serum powders main (the other two with llotv sb because I figured I can play the dredge mulligan game back at them), no cotv, double ghosts, and top/bazaar (I think at a 3/4 maybe 3/3 split). Between spinning, bazaar filter, and spinning (5 cards right there) you got to find some high quality cards (it made digging for the quad duplicant pretty easy for the oath match up). There were some very specific meta conditions at the time that made it possible, like the complete absence of null rod due to gush dominance, but it worked so well its always on my radar. The whole time vault null rod thing would worry me obviously. However, if you’re considering top and testing it, like you mentioned, you want to add bazaars. Just a warning you end up cutting some lands for the 7 or 6 cards and then the deck becomes pretty decision heavy with the engine, but once practiced the two people playing the list had a lot of success with it. I’d play it over bottled cloister any day, but mostly because I hate that card.

[Bomberman!]

 Yes, i thought of allot of ways to have a draw engine...or something that would help in the top deck mode.  The closest thing i got was 3 crop and 2 senseis, add demonic,vampiric, and tinker you have 6 cards for shuffle effects, and the double welder free draw with sensei.  
adding more bazzars is also a good idea.

[TheShop]

There is a 1 year old Thread about draw engines under the workshop decks forum.  I started it and I wish I could erase many of my comments there