Hermit Druid with Green Sun's Zenith- viable?

[Stormanimagus]

if you are worried about the blue count, there is always the possibility of dropping FOW and adding Unmask.

Yeah, I don't think this deck necessarily wants FoW. What about Xantid Swarm + 2-3 Cabal Therapy? That seems fine to me. I'm currently testing a list that is doing great for me with 3 Tarmogoyf MD instead of the FoW and Lord Of Extinction package. I'll post it a bit later.

-Storm

[Purple Hat]

I think it comes down to what the best time to play hermit druid is.  If the best time is turn 1 then you're going to be throwing out a lot of unprotected hermit druids with either xantid or duress in your deck.  If the best time is turn 2 then those cards get a lot better.

I think turn 1 is best which makes me unwilling to play either xantids or duress effects.

[nataz]

nothing prevents you from using unmask on t1 before you cast druid. I might even be easier depending on your color counts/final deck build.

[voltron00x]

I'd be terrified of Shops playing without Force of Will.  The match-up is already risky. 

I just tested the list I posted earlier today.  It's really not bad, if you want a fast combo deck that isn't very good vs. Shops (which most of them aren't...).

I think GSZ is very good.  And, Preordain is another key printing that supports this deck, which did not exist before.

[nataz]

@voltron

why use a fetch base? Games are supposed to be short w/ this deck, and who wants to get colored screwed? 5 color base seems like the obvious choice. After goldfishing a little, i found a couple of instances where a 5 color base would have given me better options for casting my spells over a period of two turns. This is magnified by running the full fast mana instead of on color mana sources = sometimes playing off one land for 2 turns. It sucks that you need G for the combo twice, and most of the search/tutor package is u/b.

Also, do you have enough blue to run force? I count 8 not including the narco which seems dangerous to pitch. If so, would you feel comfortable subbing unmask for thoughtseize? I count 9 black cards not including combo pieces.

unmask would allow you to up your pitch magic count, and maybe drop the misdirection for bounce spell (chain of vapor/etruth/h-recall?)

[voltron00x]

Regarding UnmasK:  Unmask is a non-starter in my opinion, I'm sorry.  The card is terrible against Shops, and doesn't prevent opponents from stealing your gas with Thoughtseize on the draw.  This deck has 17 blue cards, and only 11 black spells, however, many of these could not be exiled without breaking your combo (including Lord, Ghoul, and DR).  There are no blue spells you can't exile in the deck, so supporting Unmask is far more difficult than supporting Force, and the card is considerably worse in a meta where MUD is either one of the best decks, or the best deck, depending on how you view things.

Regarding the mana base:  fetches are there to support Dryad Arbor.  The card is actually quite good.  A number of times in testing, I was able to Thoughtseize, then Cabal Therapy, then sac my Arbor to Cabal again, clearing out all opponents ability to fight back or taking their gas.  In post-board games, Arbor supports the use of Natural Order.  Also, one could use fetches to get basics against workshops, and leading with a fetch to stop Wasteland, if you have Force back-up, is a nice way to start against Shops. 

One thing, the deck is definitely weak against Shops as listed.  I'm trying to figure out how to fix that.  Probably would need to add at least 1 basic, if not 2,  to the board, if one was expecting lots of Shops.  

[nataz]

hm, for some reason I miscounted the number of blue spells. That certainly makes FOW easier to support. That said, all of the neg aspects of unmask as applied to the shop match-up also applies to thoughtseize. Additionally, unmask has the opportunity to come online earlier (w/out needing to fetch an underground over a tropical), and is easier to cast through spheres.

I'm not convinced its a non-starter, but I agree that the black count would have to come up.

I agree that Dryad is good, but I haven't been fetching him out. Generally I've been either using GSZ or drawing him naturally, and saving fetching for mana production on that turn.  

How do basics work in the deck? Do you just remove the druid combo and go NO + tinker? Or do you hope to activate druid 2-3 times? Rather then basics I think I'd rather have a bunch of ESG + bounce spells. Post board end up with something more like Hale's list w/ 26 mana soruces and cram in h-recall. If you ran 5 color you could run serenity. If you were worried about chalice you could run nature's claim/ancient grudge.  
  

[Purple Hat]

I tested 11 games against my gush storm deck tonight.  It was pretty even.  Gush won 6-5, 2 games by ancestraling the druid after activation.  Druid won one game with a hard cast LoE with protection on turn 2.  LoE is a total beating for gush decks. 

I haven't tested the workshop matchup but I suspect that my list would be strong against shops because of ESG's and playing 2 extra lands.  Even if they're nonbasics, you can just replace a wasted land with another one and go off.

[Rico Suave]

Has anyone identified the reasons Hermit Druid hasn't been successful in the past?  Is this an anomaly, or was there some legitimate problem that can now be solved with new cards?

I'm sure there area  number of subtle reasons.

In order for a Hermit Druid deck to win on a Druid activation, it requires green mana and no basics in the entire deck which is already asking a lot.  On top of this we end up with a 1/1 creature that can also be hit by things like Needle.  And assuming this all works properly, the deck still needs to contain something like this:

-3 Narcomoeba
-Bridge from Below
-3 Cabal Therapy
-Dragon Breath
-Sutured Ghoul
-Lord of Extinction

As such, there are so many blanks in the deck that if the early combo attempt fails it's probably not going to have a whole lot to fall back on.  This isn't to say that cards like Cabal Therapy can't be used effectively, but it's also not hard to draw a Dragon Breath or a Bridge and fall apart faster than other similar combo decks.

With grave hate thrown in, it becomes a lot more challenging.

If there were a card that could help revitalize Hermit Druid, I would think that GSZ would be that kind of card.  It helps facilitate the primary combo, but it also opens up a lot of doors for alternate routes should that primary combo not be an option for whatever reason.

Whether this makes it a deck worth playing I'll leave up to the reader.

[Eastman]

Wow so I just got back from a 7 day cruise, and am delighted that this thread hasn't died.  I haven't done much work on the deck (vacation and all) but am eager to get back into this.  One thing though:

Has anyone identified the reasons Hermit Druid hasn't been successful in the past?  Is this an anomaly, or was there some legitimate problem that can now be solved with new cards?

I think we have to consider the fact that almost no one has played powered hermit druid decks.  So it might be 50% anamoly, 50% that the deck has a serious problem to overcome with the amount of GY hate in the format.  I'm still with those hopeful that it can be made tier 2 workable with the new printings.

Voltron mentioned that preordain is a good printing for the deck.  I agree. Last time I worked on druid (I ran out of time and had to abandon it to prep tezz for gencon--also the older thread got completely derailed by wheel of sun and moon), I was running opts because I found that the deck seriously needed filtering.  Preordain is a major upgrade. 

[vassago]

 ...Probably would need to add at least 1 basic ... 

I understand that Druid doesn't work with basic lands in the deck, but I was wondering how much of an issue would it be if we opted for a singleton basic forest? I mean if all 6 or 7 fetches got forest(Misty Rainforest and Verdant Catacomb), would it really be an issue? If we did this, I am sure that all the duals had to make black at that point for turn one seize/therapy, which would make the mana base look something like this: 3 sea, 2 bayou, 1 forest 6/7 fetches and lots of artifacts. I guess this idea really rides on it not being that big of a deal.

Is this any good?

[Stormanimagus]

 ...Probably would need to add at least 1 basic ... 

I understand that Druid doesn't work with basic lands in the deck, but I was wondering how much of an issue would it be if we opted for a singleton basic forest? I mean if all 6 or 7 fetches got forest(Misty Rainforest and Verdant Catacomb), would it really be an issue? If we did this, I am sure that all the duals had to make black at that point for turn one seize/therapy, which would make the mana base look something like this: 3 sea, 2 bayou, 1 forest 6/7 fetches and lots of artifacts. I guess this idea really rides on it not being that big of a deal.

Is this any good?

No. Put simply, the deck has major issues when you hit a forest before milling everything. Time Walking your opponent for the inclusion of 1 basic Forest is not a good trade, and you cannot rely on your fetches to save you early. You may often have a hand with City of Brass or the dual itself + Spirit Guide or Mox. In this case you will hit the Forest, and unless you are really lucky some piece of the combo will be below it. If this is the case you have just Time Walked your opponent. There are very few tier 1 decks that cannot make you pay for time walking them.

-Storm

[Ripcord728]

Natural Order?  It's expensive, there aren't enough creatures (even with GSZ) to make it reliable, and it doesn't win for two turns after it hits.  Come on.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Hermit is a pet deck of mine, and I see that many builds differ here.  The card draw/filter seems different, disruption packages are different, and even the combo itself is not the same in these lists.  Hermit druids and narcomebas seem to be the only staples in a hermit list.  Needless to say sideboards vary widely as well.  I think since GSZ dodges meddling mage and chalice @2, a new focus of "things to play around" opens up for a hermit deck.  It seems that natural order has been brought up as tinker 2-5 to offer a plan B that becomes the main plan g2/3.  It might even be just a Plan B in case you face hate.  But I wonder, would a better route be to just hate the hate like dredge does?  It has no plan B really, but chains/claims the hate that stops the bazaar/dredge madness.  Assuming you have an infinite sideboard (as no solid 15 has come up), what cards would you bring in vs each deck type?  What would you sb out?  Since the main decks are not standard either, I guess saying "side out draw, filter, disruption, etc." would suffice.  These are the common tier 1 decks:

MUD
Stax
Tezz
Trygon/Jace
Oath
Dredge
Noble Fish
Keeper
ANT
Belcher
TPS
Drain Tendrils
Gush
Doomsday
Dragon
(anything else I forgot)

[o uncola o]

Ponder is usually my victim of cut decisions. Personally, I hate MisD, but I see the need for it. Other than that the only thing you could stand to lose for the 4th preordain is the 3rd cabal Therapy, which ups the blue count. 3 seize, 2 therapy and 5 pitch spells should be good enough, right?

What about dropping a thoughtseize and keeping the therapy?

[voltron00x]

Natural Order?  It's expensive, there aren't enough creatures (even with GSZ) to make it reliable, and it doesn't win for two turns after it hits.  Come on.

You realize that all the fetches are also effectively creatures, yes?  Not saying that means NO is definitely going to work, but there definitely are enough creatures.

Otherwise, you need a combination of normal hate cards... Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Pithing Needle, things like that.  The deck would in theory be able to dig for them reasonably enough, I just dont know what exactly you're supposed to be siding out to make that plan work.

[TopSecret]

If it's not possible to get the blue count high enough for Force or Unmask, has anyone considered playing Orim's Chant/Silence to make the shop matchup better? If I understand correctly, you just need a turn or two window to ramp up to Druid/activation. Chant/Silence could buy you a turn and it wouldn't force you to go toe to toe with their threat count like a counterspell or discard effect would.

Also, why is there no Insist in this deck? Insist was MADE for this deck!

[TheWhiteDragon]

In any build, with all the disruption, tutors and hermits themselves, forcing through a hermit is not usually a problem.  Keeping the hermit alive for the turn, having the mana to cast hermit/zenith, or activating it (due to gaddock teeg, yixlid jailer, leyline, needle, etc., etc.,) is the biggest problem.  This goes back to my original problem posed a few posts ago.  If you can land a hermit, but can't go off due to hate, is it better to use a plan B like tinker/Natural Order, or fight the hate with claims/darkblast/e-truth/etc.  Dredge tends to do the latter while other decks abandon their main attack for a backup plan.  Which would you do?  What cards would you use for either course of action?  What areas would you cut (disruption, tutor, filter/draw, etc. slots) to make room for sb cards?  I think finding the right plan vs each deck and then posing a possible sb+/main- plan for each deck type will be very beneficial to further discussion on any hermit list, as it will help solidify a sb and also maindeck considerations.

[Eastman]

In any build, with all the disruption, tutors and hermits themselves, forcing through a hermit is not usually a problem.  Keeping the hermit alive for the turn, having the mana to cast hermit/zenith, or activating it (due to gaddock teeg, yixlid jailer, leyline, needle, etc., etc.,) is the biggest problem.  This goes back to my original problem posed a few posts ago.  If you can land a hermit, but can't go off due to hate, is it better to use a plan B like tinker/Natural Order, or fight the hate with claims/darkblast/e-truth/etc.  Dredge tends to do the latter while other decks abandon their main attack for a backup plan.  Which would you do?  What cards would you use for either course of action?  What areas would you cut (disruption, tutor, filter/draw, etc. slots) to make room for sb cards?  I think finding the right plan vs each deck and then posing a possible sb+/main- plan for each deck type will be very beneficial to further discussion on any hermit list, as it will help solidify a sb and also maindeck considerations.

As powerful as this deck is pre-board, the post board hate that shuts it down is just incredible.  It isn't just graveyard hate (jailer, leyline, crypt, spellbomb, pact) that hurt, but also creature destruction (swords, mogg fanatic, darkblast), enchant hate (killing the dragon breath turns off haste and slows a turn), and a multitude of random hate stuff like Gaddock Teeg, pithing needle, echoing truth, and more.  Oh and not to mention Ancestral Recall, which is run in about every deck, is one of the best pieces of hate against the druid plan.  What can you bring in?  I've tried nature's claim, but it doesn't hit enough.  I guess chain of vapor? (although they can respond to the bounce to sac a land and bounce your hermit, you can activate hermit in response).  The task of responding to all of the hate preboard seems daunting, I think that some kind of conversion plan is appropriate.  But what?  I have been toying with a TPS conversion, but haven't tested enough to see if the graveyard hate splashing onto Yawgmoth's will hurts too much.  In any event, this is an uphill battle and I am running out of ideas. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

In my build, I have 1 E-truth main and bring in 3 more sb.  It is the only spell to remove any piece of hate and multiple copies (like when they lucksack into double LotV).  Vs most decks that are only running grave hate like jailer and possibly darkblast, e-truths seem to be sufficient.  As far as darkblast, lightning bolt, plows, etc. that are only useful if cast the turn you cast hermit, that is where your disruption comes in and you need to lead with seize or protect with counters.  Darkblast is certainly the biggest pain as they can EoT attempt to kill and if that fails, dredge it up and try again on their turn.  Any permanent disrutpion that can be dropped proactively (needle, revoker, teeg, etc.) you have the remove all bounce of e-truth.  Maze of ith is a whole other beast that is a terrible problem, but is luckily not played (unless this deck proves good).  I find that vs most decks relying on a few win conditions (tezz, oath, etc.), bringing in claims/etruth but maintaining heavy disruption is the key. Vs Workshops, adding extra mana, especially LED/ESG helps, and spells like hurkylls will remove all hate in one shot.  Claims also are good just for generic utility vs shops.  Sometimes even pithing needle is good to stave off nihil, crypt, or wasteland.  Vs a deck like fish that brings in extra plows, needles, crypts and already runs meddling mage, teeg, pridemage, I find it is good to run a transformational plan all together (like NO/Progenitus or tinker/inkwell).  Every deck demands a different sb strategy, thus why I suggested listing each deck type and the strategy/sb options used vs each deck.  It will prove invaluable to anyone really wanting to make a go of hermit.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

In any build, with all the disruption, tutors and hermits themselves, forcing through a hermit is not usually a problem.  Keeping the hermit alive for the turn, having the mana to cast hermit/zenith, or activating it (due to gaddock teeg, yixlid jailer, leyline, needle, etc., etc.,) is the biggest problem.  This goes back to my original problem posed a few posts ago.  If you can land a hermit, but can't go off due to hate, is it better to use a plan B like tinker/Natural Order, or fight the hate with claims/darkblast/e-truth/etc.  Dredge tends to do the latter while other decks abandon their main attack for a backup plan.  Which would you do?  What cards would you use for either course of action?  What areas would you cut (disruption, tutor, filter/draw, etc. slots) to make room for sb cards?  I think finding the right plan vs each deck and then posing a possible sb+/main- plan for each deck type will be very beneficial to further discussion on any hermit list, as it will help solidify a sb and also maindeck considerations.

As powerful as this deck is pre-board, the post board hate that shuts it down is just incredible.  It isn't just graveyard hate (jailer, leyline, crypt, spellbomb, pact) that hurt, but also creature destruction (swords, mogg fanatic, darkblast), enchant hate (killing the dragon breath turns off haste and slows a turn), and a multitude of random hate stuff like Gaddock Teeg, pithing needle, echoing truth, and more.  Oh and not to mention Ancestral Recall, which is run in about every deck, is one of the best pieces of hate against the druid plan.  What can you bring in?  I've tried nature's claim, but it doesn't hit enough.  I guess chain of vapor? (although they can respond to the bounce to sac a land and bounce your hermit, you can activate hermit in response).  The task of responding to all of the hate preboard seems daunting, I think that some kind of conversion plan is appropriate.  But what?  I have been toying with a TPS conversion, but haven't tested enough to see if the graveyard hate splashing onto Yawgmoth's will hurts too much.  In any event, this is an uphill battle and I am running out of ideas. 

I like sideboarding trygon predator and good vs shop and grave hate at the same time

[Purple Hat]

These are the common tier 1 decks:

MUD - druid plan
Stax - Druid plan
Tezz - transform
Trygon/Jace - Transform
Oath - Transform
Dredge - druid plan
Noble Fish - Transform
Keeper - transform
ANT - druid plan
Belcher - druid plan
TPS - not sure
Drain Tendrils - transform
Gush - probably transform
Doomsday - probably transform
Dragon - probably druid plan
(anything else I forgot)

basically I think you transform vs anything that's controly because they're gonna be throwing all kinds of hate from jace to swords to yard hate at you.  Against anything linear you're gonna want the druid plan because it's really freakin fast and they're unlikely to have too much creature hate so you're just fighting yard hate which is very doable.  Pithing needle is a great board card for this deck.  I think I would build something like this for a board:
4 NO
1 progenitus
3 pithing needle
3 bounce spells
4 claim - maybe these last two need to be other dredge hate though

When I transform I would probably go -ghoul, - dragon's breath, -dread return, -2 druids (druid is still a cheap green creature, but I might take out therapy instead)

when I stay druid I'd probably tend to side out tinker/BSC but I'm not sure what else.  Against stax, mud and dredge probably disruption, against other linear combo probably deck manipulation.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I have found transformational to suck.  They are going to bring in grave hate regardless, but if you swap the combo for no/prog, now they just have to stop a single NO to block your spell and kill your green creature.  Now you need 2 cards to get 1 progenitus.  Hermit is easy to get through, because eventually they run out of counters with 3-4 zeniths and 4 hermits.  Every one that you topdeck is an instant threat.  After transforming, neither hermit or NO are a threat without the other.  Things like gaddock teeg also stop both threats at once.  Also g2/3 sometimes you open with land, mox, hermit, fow, blue card and they had not dropped a leyline...now your turn 1 combo is just a 1/1 with no abilities.  You neuter your own deck for fear of the hate which effectively gives them 60 hate cards.