Welder...yes or no

[GNU]

When playing workshop decks, I've only ever played the mono red staxs variety. Alot of that has to do with the consistance of the deck and loving the strength of Goblin Welder, being able to fit through control decks conterspells and deal with tinkered botz. However, since the printing of Inkwell & Sphinx I've found myself trying to find other ways to deal with these botz. Usually having to either rely on them not resolving, smokestax with a tanglewire keeping it busy or a duplicant.

Now with the printing of Blightsteel Collossus, i think that welder has never looked so good. It allows the deck to have an additional out against the current popular tinkered bot, whilst also playing havoc in workshop match ups. Not to mention annoying the hell out of those damn pesty trygon's. I understand that mud gains access to more consistant mana base with anceint tombs and city of traitors, but is that worthwile when considering the benefits of playing cards like welder, rack and ruin & greater garadon???

Seeing that I haven't played any of the other workshop variants, I was curious to hear others opinions on what they believe to be the stronger deck in the current metagames and why???

[brokenbacon]

Welder is pretty underwhelming against Oath. Many recent tournaments have shown that MUD and Oath are neck in neck for contention of most played, with Oath taking the lead in some circumstances. Point being: yes, Welder is incredibly powerful. But against Oath, one of the mainstays of the current meta, it falls far behind.
If you can answer Oath preemptively (or wait till later with a Duplicant in hand) and lay down a Welder, by all means go for it. However, Oath of Druids no longer needs Forbidden Orchard to function when you have Welder in play, and if the opponent drops Oath when you can't answer it a soft lock is created.
Consider this scenario:
You: Play Tangle Wire, get it Mana Drained. Drop a Welder, pass.
Opponent: Play Oath of Druids, play Jace, bounce the Welder.
Now you are left with a Welder in hand (essentially dead), a Jace on the opponent's side, and a soft lock piece on your creatures. This is why Welder is underwhelming v. Oath.
To restate my point, however, if you can answer Oath then go for it.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Highly played cards at the moment include:

BSC - tinkerbot of choice as it is 1 turn kill
trygon - so blue can deal with MUD
MUD - the whole damn deck
natures claim - the most versatile, cheap hate commonly maindecked
FoW - obvious blue staple
spell pierce - cheap but cant hit critters

All of these either get wrecked by, negated by, or dodged by welder

Cards NOT being played:

darkblast, fire/ice, lightning bolt, triskelion - these used to hurt welder bad

The one bitch to look out for is the shit-ton of revokers....but a 1/1 and 2/1 trade and if revoker hits welder, it's not hitting your metalworkers, hellkites, etc.  I run 3 in my MUD deck personally.

[BC]

I'm a big fan of Welder.  I've tried MUD a bunch of times, but it always seems pretty boring and underpowered compared to Red Stax (just a personal opinion).  MUD does have a better mana base, but Welder gives you so many more options.  It's just a really really powerful card.

Against Oath it's true that Welder can open you up to some bad noise, but in other situations he can save the game for you.  Recurring Tangle Wire and Duplicant, keeping Ensnaring Bridge on the table, etc.

Also, from my experience, against Fish Welder is the most important card you can draw.  He just controls that matchup. 

Yeah, I'm a fan.

[Leooooh]

Hey there!!

You pointed out a good question GNU. Even knowing that MUD decks have a stronger mana base due to the use of Anciento Tombs and City of Traitors I prefer too to play with Welders. Theyr are so useful, and can help you in every match up. But after a lot of testing, and due to the fact that Vintage is using more and more creatures, I think the right path to go is Aggro. Smokestacks are too slow if you don't play a full set of 13 sphere effects like any MUD list or at least the combination of 4 Spheres, 2 Thorns and 4 Golens of the Expresso stax lists. Well, you can play all those spheres, but then you will loose a lot of gas due to the fact that you do not run a full set of Tombs, and even City of Traitors. As you can see from recent reports, a Mono Red Stax won a big tournament (Ed Carey, in Blue Bell). His deck had the 13 spheres effects, and also Null Rod. But unlike other builds, he ran 4 Ancient Tombs and only 2 Welders. Ahhh, and another thing. His deck pointed a little bit to Aggro too, using 4 Golens, 2 Dupes, Karn and 2 Wurmcoils.

So considering that you wanna play a full set or at least 3 Welders in your build, you will need to increase the red sources. By doind this you will make your manabase slower and kind of more dependant on Shops. This will also make smokestack less effective. You see, I  AM NOT SAYING THAT SMOKESTACK SUCKS, but only that it is slow in the current meta, while in the past it was stronger because more control decks were played. Another point that I would like to pointer in the use of Smokestack, is that against Aggro MUD versions it becomes even more dead, with Metalworkers and Hellkites being played a lot, and they normall can deploy more permanents than you due their fast mana. One last thing, Smokestack is horrible when dealing with Trygons too, even with welder on the board.

Also, like brokenbacon said, Oath is a big problem right now, being a good answer too any kind of Aggro lists. So if you wanna play with welders, you will need a good sb against them while other MUD decks packs big guys in the place of Welders, with a more stable manabase, like said before.

So right now I am testing a RG Aggro build with maindeck welders. Why RG? Well, a good friend of mine and a very good player (TheWhiteDragon), told me to add a color to those red variants, and the best color for defense and ofensive answers is green right now. You can add Greater Gargadon on the sb, but they only work well if combined with a smokestack to clear the board or to get rid of Oath. Otherwise I really don't know how you are going to handle an Emrakul or a Blightsteel Colossus with a 9/7.

So I decided to add green, for sb answers. What is best to get rid of Oath then Natures Claim? Only G, and you can still answer it on the first turn. Ahhhh, and it not only gets rid of oath, but also hits the Vault Key combo that most lists run. Rack, and Ruin and Shattering Spree are good cards, but I think that Ancient Grudge is better. It hits a potential target and will hit another one of your choice any time. Not to mention that I works good with Bazaars.

With this in mind, I am testing this version.

THE GOLDEN ARMY (RG Stax)

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
(22)

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Precursor Golem
3 Goblin Welder
1 Duplicant
(12)

5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
(8)

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
(18)

SB:

4 Nature's Claim
4 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Duplicant
2 Pithing Needle
(15)


Some explanations about my choices.

Bazaar and Null Rods:  Whenever a play Null Rods, I always like to add 3-4 Bazaars because the deck will have an increase of dead draws. So they not only help filter your deck and find more answers, but also works amazingly well with welders. Also, I added Null Rod due to previous builds having some troubles with a resolved Hellkite as well as an early Metalworker that can ignore the Welders. Not to mention that it is a huge card to buy tempo against control decks that rely on a lot of artifact mana, shuts Key vault, and doesnt increase the casting cost of your spells like another par of Spheres would. This card has won so many games for me, that I lost my count. Not to mention that it is a huge card on the draw after oponent playing a lot of mana artifacts. I would really like to add 4, but I have no space.

Precursor Golem: I never thought this guy could be playeble, but after seeing how fast it can end the game, i decided to add 4. Another reason of adding it, is because of welder and the fact that it isn't affected by rod. If they get destroyed you have welder to recur them back, as well as to make an army of 3/3s (Thats why the deck has this name.... A lot of Golens and a Goblin to make them alive, like in Hellboy 2). Basiccaly it reads as 5 mana 9/9. If the tokens are destroyed you lost a single card like a Lodestone (In a certain way). Beware when playing them both. Its kind of risky, even more in games 2 and 3, but 9 dmg for 5 shop mana is no joke. Another good thing that I would like to point is that this guy, can be a huge threat to a trygon deck, when combined with welder. Unlike Smokestack, it adds a clock as well as a constant source of welder targets, that if not completely destroyed can win games easily. I would like to mention that this guy is also an answer to jace as well as a huge boost of permanents in the MUD mirror. Just beware with it in g2 and g3.

Nature's Claim : Ths card is gold against MUD, Oath and even fish builds. This card is the reason I added green to the build and the reason I will build any welder build with it as an answer.

Duplicants: Since we are using Null Rods, this guy is the critter killer of choice if not the best right now. When combined with welders, they can wreck any aggro build, and has become even more stronger with Blightsteel and Steel Hellkites being played a lot. It is a good answers to oath builds, if you can reach 6 mana quick.


There are some cards i would like to add in the maindeck, and they would be the 2nd Dupe and maybe the 4th Null Rod. Maybe I cut down one bazaar, but I am still testing this idea, since i think this deck might need another answer for aggro decks in the first game. I might even try adding a fourth welder, due to its strengh. I also think that the sb against Ichorid might be weak, and require more testings.

To end this big post,I think that if you want to play Welders nowadays, you should go aggro, and definitely add green. This extra color help you so much in so many matches that are difficult for this kind of deck.

I will keep on testing this build, and if something is added, taken or discovered I will post it here. Any discussion or opinions about it, even if negative would be really apreciated.

Thanksss
 

[madmanmike25]

Leooooh, be careful with your manabase.  I played a ton of UbaStax with the 4 mountain and 4 B-ring combination and STILL sometimes didn't see red mana to cast a Welder.  You have only 6 lands that produce r/g.  Even with the on-color moxen and Lotus it can be tricky.

[Leooooh]

Leooooh, be careful with your manabase.  I played a ton of UbaStax with the 4 mountain and 4 B-ring combination and STILL sometimes didn't see red mana to cast a Welder.  You have only 6 lands that produce r/g.  Even with the on-color moxen and Lotus it can be tricky.

Hey!! I agree 200% with you madmanmike25. Sometimes I get stuck with a colored spell on my hand, with no rg sources on the board. I would really like to increase the number of those sources, but I don't feel that cutting Ancient Tombs, is a good idea. I simply don't know ehat to cut. Can you please give me a sugestion?

[madmanmike25]

Heh, part of me wants to say "make up your mind" since you are playing MUD + 3 cards.  This is a tough one; Mox Opal seems like it would help but conflicts with Null Rod.  Do you NEED four Bazaars?  That could net you 1-2 more on color lands.

And think about this:  You are running zero basic lands.  Those Taigas and fetches could easily become 5c lands.

Btw, running only 3 Welders makes it seem like you aren't really sold on the little guy.  I think you have to ask yourself if he is really as good now as you think he is.  He's still the best 1cc creature ever printed, but I think he got lost in the MUDslide.

[Leooooh]

Hey Madmanmike, thanks for giving some ideas....here are my thoughts!!!

Heh, part of me wants to say "make up your mind" since you are playing MUD + 3 cards.  This is a tough one; Mox Opal seems like it would help but conflicts with Null Rod.  Do you NEED four Bazaars?  That could net you 1-2 more on color lands.

And think about this:  You are running zero basic lands.  Those Taigas and fetches could easily become 5c lands.

Indeed, this is a MUD list with 3 welders, 4 bazaars and colored lands, but the first seven cards (bazaars and weders) make it play a little bit different from the usual MUDs lists. Welder provides you the ability to recurr critters as well as another defense. Bazaar helps smooth the dead draws this deck tends to have due to the use of Null Rods. After casting Null Rods, Every other moxen you draw or aditional lands are used to increase your hand size, so you can constantly use bazaar. The key part is always keeping one card in hand so you can have 4 cards in hand after a bazaar use and keep the best of the 4. If you didn't find the card you were looking for, you keep this card in hand, in order to have hand size for another use of bazaar. This is an advantage that MUD decks don't have, while MUD decks tends to have a more faster mana base. Each deck has its props and cons.
About the 5c lands, I prefer using the old duals to the fact that those 2 colors are the best for this kind of deck. I need red for welders and green comes for addition defense and offense as well.
The mana base of the 5c builds are very weak in my point of view. Gemstones are horrible and cities are mid temr. Taigas don't cause you loss of life and crucible plus fetch can be a really good combo sometimes. You see, I just added the second color because green has earned a really powerful card, that is Nature's Claim.

Btw, running only 3 Welders makes it seem like you aren't really sold on the little guy.  I think you have to ask yourself if he is really as good now as you think he is.  He's still the best 1cc creature ever printed, but I think he got lost in the MUDslide.

Believe me, I am sold on this little pesky heheheh!! I just few that 3 was the correct number right now. Like I said in the previous posts, I am still testing this list. There are games that I wish I had anoter Welder and others a wish it was a critter to keep the pressure up. The cards I am really testing and that i am not sure about the number are: Null Rod, Welder, Dupes and Bazaars. Nul rod, in some matches area beating, but horrible in fish matchups, while welder shines in the fish and against anything that has counters. SO its kind of difficult, but i Will try to tune this deck to the right portion.
One of the things I am trying to achieve in this build is a kind of MUD list with welders and bazaars, since I love the sinergy that those 2 cards provide together.

Thanks for pointing those things. THey help me to clarify some ideas. Any other ideas will be great man!!!
 

[vaughnbros]

Leooooh, be careful with your manabase.  I played a ton of UbaStax with the 4 mountain and 4 B-ring combination and STILL sometimes didn't see red mana to cast a Welder.  You have only 6 lands that produce r/g.  Even with the on-color moxen and Lotus it can be tricky.

Hey!! I agree 200% with you madmanmike25. Sometimes I get stuck with a colored spell on my hand, with no rg sources on the board. I would really like to increase the number of those sources, but I don't feel that cutting Ancient Tombs, is a good idea. I simply don't know ehat to cut. Can you please give me a sugestion?

To try and stabilize this mana base you can try cutting the 2 ancient tomb for more fetches and then cutting 2 or 3 Bazaar for crop rotation.  This will give you extra colored mana sources while also the crop rotations will allow you to fetch up Workshop or Bazaar or even strip mine if you have a crucible.  The only other option I can really see is a couple of mox opals.

Also have you considered running uba mask? since you are running both welder, shops and bazaars it seems like it would be pretty powerful

[BruiZar]

I played this to a top 8 finish last weekend. I'm not sold on Null Rod. I had no troubles beating Oath. Goblin Welder was an all star all day long and I wouldn't have won without Welder. Tangle Wire was sweet as well.

3 Tangle Wire
3 Smokestack
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Goblin Welder
1 Kuldotha Phoenix
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Ancient Tomb

I would replace the Null Rods for Revokers and make room for a Keldon Megaliths to deal with Goblin Welder/Dark Confidant/Phyrexian Revoker/Fish. I really want to play with Chalice of the Void but it interferes with my own deck and makes me more reliant on the diceroll. Phoenix was a tool with smokestack that I could mill into with bazaar and to speed up the clock a bit. (9 damage with golem and phoenix per turn)

[LotusHead]

Why aren't all shop decks playing Phyrexian Metamorph?

For 3 shop mana (and 2 life) it copies any dude or artifact.

Against legendary creatures, it's a win!
Against non-legendary creatures, it's a win!
Against a deck with no artifacts, it copies your own goodies. A win!

[BruiZar]

Why aren't all shop decks playing Phyrexian Metamorph?

For 3 shop mana (and 2 life) it copies any dude or artifact.

Against legendary creatures, it's a win!
Against non-legendary creatures, it's a win!
Against a deck with no artifacts, it copies your own goodies. A win!

I know I've recommended Sculpting Steel a ton in the past, but I personally didn't like Phyrexian Metamorph at all. I had 3 in the sideboard and it was just never relevant. In theory, the card should be great, but it was disappointing to me. Perhaps I need to test it more

The card is even a 0/0 artifact creature so it's not affected by Thorn of Amethyst and Lodestone Golem. Not sure why this card was so unimpressive.

[Leooooh]

Hey

Great work bruizar. Its always amazing to see a Welder Stax making top 8. I am a HUGE fan of Welder, and the Welder + Bazaar engine. Broken things can be done,and the recursion that Welder provides is huge. I know exactly what do you mean when you said it won you a lot of games.

I think you should keep the Null Rods on the deck. A lot of people are playing more and more artifacts mana and artifacts that have an activation cost. The ability to shut 2+ moxen with a single card is f.... huge man. Revoker is good, no doubts, but the idea of your deck is better suited for Null Rods.

I would cut the Spheres or the Thorns (I prefer cuting the Spheres of Resistance) for Chalices, and also make Tangle Wire a 4 off. This card is so huge.

Another thing. Don't you ever miss a creature removal, besides the extra slow barbarian ring recursion and Smokestack? I think you might need some Dupes in this build

[ironcladlou]

Why aren't all shop decks playing Phyrexian Metamorph?

For 3 shop mana (and 2 life) it copies any dude or artifact.

Against legendary creatures, it's a win!
Against non-legendary creatures, it's a win!
Against a deck with no artifacts, it copies your own goodies. A win!

I know I've recommended Sculpting Steel a ton in the past, but I personally didn't like Phyrexian Metamorph at all. I had 3 in the sideboard and it was just never relevant. In theory, the card should be great, but it was disappointing to me. Perhaps I need to test it more

The card is even a 0/0 artifact creature so it's not affected by Thorn of Amethyst and Lodestone Golem. Not sure why this card was so unimpressive.

I've been really impressed with Phyrexian Metamorph recently while running two in an espresso stax build. I'm finding that I use Metamorph a lot more than I ever used duplicants. Duplicant had a bad habit of hiding in my hand because I'd be a mana short when I needed him (worsened by sphere effects), or I'd hold on to Duplicant in anticipation of a big threat that may never come. Metamorph, on the other hand, stays consistently within my mana curve and is a lot more flexible while orchestrating threats. I can defensively hold Metamorph when I fear BSC, or use him offensively to copy a target like Lodestone when all I need to do is keep an opponent on the run. While the exile feature of Duplicant is unmatched by Metamorph, Metamorph's flexibility really does make him a practical (and cheaper) alternative.

Also, in my experience using Duplicant – his greatest successes have been in Welder decks.