The great debate: Darth Vader vs Batman

[Klep]

Also batman does not have the funds and resources to obtain a ysalimkr.

He has his preptime. That's all he needs.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Also apparently the suit is not based on electricity, but sith alchemy. so the bat emp defense is null.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Also batman does not have the funds and resources to obtain a ysalimkr.

He has his preptime. That's all he needs.

Correct, to plan his own funeral for after he gets crushed by vader.

[honestabe]

You guys trying to tell me some whiney little prick who can't even decide if he's a good or bad guy is supposed to take down the Dark Knight?

Batman wouldn't even have to fight, he'd just mind fuck Skywalker until his head imploded

[Norm4eva]

Guys guys guys, the Internet already decided this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdgVnwo-Szk

[mike_bergeron]

We all know that Wesley Willis can defeated Batman, and in fact has done so. The real question is whether Wesley Willis could defeat Vader or not.

This topic was decided when someone dropped the wesley willis bomb (he played in boston at tt the bear's in the year 2000, and I can tell you for a fact he headbutts people instead of shaking hands)

Willis destroys Vader, thread decided

[ELD]

Batman, not close. 

[Norm4eva]

Why would Wesley Willis' prowess against Batman be telling of his potential skill level against Darth Vader?  Aren't we Magic players, is there no sense of Rock-Paper-Scissors here?  It's not like Batman is Ken, Darth Vader is Chun-Li and Wesley Willis is Old Sagat.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Why would Wesley Willis' prowess against Batman be telling of his potential skill level against Darth Vader?  Aren't we Magic players, is there no sense of Rock-Paper-Scissors here?  It's not like Batman is Ken, Darth Vader is Chun-Li and Wesley Willis is Old Sagat.

not to open up another can of worm, but chung-li is on the top of the sf pyramid, at list when i was playing her.

anyways... all logic has been abandoned by anyone who votes for the spoiled rich boy over the MORE RICH MAGICAL SPACE WIZARD WITH PRECOGNITION AND THE SUPERIOR UNDERSTANDING AND CONTROLL OF THE THE STUFF THE CONTROLS AND GUIDES THE UNIVERSE.
All argument int he bats favor equate to "well, but man can do anything cuz he's cool"  or with an extremely flawed flow chart that states that if you can change some facts, ignore most facts, and make some assumptions, the bat has the bennifit of the transitive property, maybe.

"the internet has already decided this" just means that the bat has more fanboys... or at least more motivated ones.

vader has more killing power.

[Norm4eva]

Why would Wesley Willis' prowess against Batman be telling of his potential skill level against Darth Vader?  Aren't we Magic players, is there no sense of Rock-Paper-Scissors here?  It's not like Batman is Ken, Darth Vader is Chun-Li and Wesley Willis is Old Sagat.

not to open up another can of worm, but chung-li is on the top of the sf pyramid, at list when i was playing her.

I think you misunderstand.  "Old Sagat" is a reference to the Sagat which was playable in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo.  To put it simply his tactics just nullified - for competitive purposes - a number of the other selectable characters.  It's sort of like saying, "Ok yeah, Dumbo Drop is strictly speaking a Vintage-legal deck, but shit man, I got TVault.dec."  So to prevent the SSF2T "metagame" from degenerating into Sagat vs Sagat, he's pretty much banhammered.  It's like how most people who play Tekken 3 have a gentleman's agreement not to pick Eddy Gordo - it's considered pretty gauche to play SSF2T and select Sagat.

Anyway anyway, back OT.  Arguments like this just kill me because both characters have a rich background to draw from and convoluted histories (especially Bats) in regard to the things they can actually conquer head-on.  It makes a plausible discussion about these things difficult.  Like, okay, there's a lizard in Star Wars which isn't affected by the Force.  Batman may not have the means to acquire it realistically - but then again, what the fuck are the odds that Bats and Vader would ever meet to begin with? 

What level of story line entanglement are we actually willing to submit to here, because if you say "Batman is operating on Tatooine in the year 3 ABY and meets Vader in Mos Eisley", because given Batman's MO he would obviously - obviously! - already have a "force resistant lizard-skin" silver bullet for Force-sensitive guys.  That's what he does.  He metagames.

Likewise if Batman is just doing his thing in Gotham, fighting thugs and criminals and the occasional supervillian - and then out of nowhere Vader steps up and gives one of his raspy little monologues - well, then what?  Does the Force work outside the galaxy of SW?  If it does, Batman should probably hope like hell Vader isn't coming after him, because he's absolutely unprepared.  If he survives the first round, things might be different.  But Vader doesn't exactly have a penchant for underestimating his opponents - in the end it's not even Luke Skywalker who bests him, he just shows him 'the path', Darth Vader pwns Sidious which is a selfpwn in the process, and he becomes an hero.  In the end the only guy who could kill Vader was, in fact, Vader.

The backstory entirely makes or breaks this argument for all parties involved.

[hitman]

anyways... all logic has been abandoned by anyone who votes for the spoiled rich boy over the MORE RICH MAGICAL SPACE WIZARD WITH PRECOGNITION AND THE SUPERIOR UNDERSTANDING AND CONTROLL OF THE THE STUFF THE CONTROLS AND GUIDES THE UNIVERSE.
All argument int he bats favor equate to "well, but man can do anything cuz he's cool"  or with an extremely flawed flow chart that states that if you can change some facts, ignore most facts, and make some assumptions, the bat has the bennifit of the transitive property, maybe.

It's all about results.  Maybe Darth Vader has the potential to beat Batman but he probably wouldn't given his record of success.  As I recall, he's only good at killing Jedi children, helpless people on planets with no Death Star defenses, old men who retract their lightsaber "blades" and master Jedi who have their backed turn since they think you're a friend.  Batman has a track record of success and even when he fails, he's a hard man to keep down.  Apparantly, death hasn't even kept him at bay recently.  Even with all Darth Vader's amazing abilities, he's an epic failure personally and professionally.

[Yare]

Why would Wesley Willis' prowess against Batman be telling of his potential skill level against Darth Vader?  Aren't we Magic players, is there no sense of Rock-Paper-Scissors here?  It's not like Batman is Ken, Darth Vader is Chun-Li and Wesley Willis is Old Sagat.

not to open up another can of worm, but chung-li is on the top of the sf pyramid, at list when i was playing her.

I think you misunderstand.  "Old Sagat" is a reference to the Sagat which was playable in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo.  To put it simply his tactics just nullified - for competitive purposes - a number of the other selectable characters.  It's sort of like saying, "Ok yeah, Dumbo Drop is strictly speaking a Vintage-legal deck, but shit man, I got TVault.dec."  So to prevent the SSF2T "metagame" from degenerating into Sagat vs Sagat, he's pretty much banhammered.  It's like how most people who play Tekken 3 have a gentleman's agreement not to pick Eddy Gordo - it's considered pretty gauche to play SSF2T and select Sagat.

Anyway anyway, back OT.  Arguments like this just kill me because both characters have a rich background to draw from and convoluted histories (especially Bats) in regard to the things they can actually conquer head-on.  It makes a plausible discussion about these things difficult.  Like, okay, there's a lizard in Star Wars which isn't affected by the Force.  Batman may not have the means to acquire it realistically - but then again, what the fuck are the odds that Bats and Vader would ever meet to begin with?  

What level of story line entanglement are we actually willing to submit to here, because if you say "Batman is operating on Tatooine in the year 3 ABY and meets Vader in Mos Eisley", because given Batman's MO he would obviously - obviously! - already have a "force resistant lizard-skin" silver bullet for Force-sensitive guys.  That's what he does.  He metagames.

Likewise if Batman is just doing his thing in Gotham, fighting thugs and criminals and the occasional supervillian - and then out of nowhere Vader steps up and gives one of his raspy little monologues - well, then what?  Does the Force work outside the galaxy of SW?  If it does, Batman should probably hope like hell Vader isn't coming after him, because he's absolutely unprepared.  If he survives the first round, things might be different.  But Vader doesn't exactly have a penchant for underestimating his opponents - in the end it's not even Luke Skywalker who bests him, he just shows him 'the path', Darth Vader pwns Sidious which is a selfpwn in the process, and he becomes an hero.  In the end the only guy who could kill Vader was, in fact, Vader.

The backstory entirely makes or breaks this argument for all parties involved.

Outstanding post! This thread has delivered in ways I did not anticipate.

[Delha]

In the end the only guy who could kill Vader was, in fact, Vader.

So cutting off someone's legs then leaving him to die in a fire (literally) doesn't qualify as "could kill"?

[Norm4eva]

In the end the only guy who could kill Vader was, in fact, Vader.

So cutting off someone's legs then leaving him to die in a fire (literally) doesn't qualify as "could kill"?

Absolutely not.  He lacked the chutzpah to seal the deal.  He's killed before, he murdered the shit out of Darth Maul.  If he'd gone whole hog there'd be no need to even have this conversation.  They must not have many movies in the Star Wars galaxy, or else he'd know better than to monologue for a minute and dip.

[Delha]

I don't buy it. That fight was over, and with a clear result. If Palpy hadn't swung down, this conversation would be Batman vs Darth Charcoal Briquette.

Your argument here is pretty much that if you get into a gun fight and shoot the other guy in the face, a doctor stepping in and saving the guy after you leave makes is so you weren't really able to kill him. In my book, extenuating circumstance saving the loser doesn't diminish the winner.

[conboy31]

I would put my money on Vader.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Vader, only boobs don't know why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2-J_2Rqxd0

[thorme]

Not as fun a fight as the 50 midgets vs a lion, but I voted Vader.

[Norm4eva]

I don't buy it. That fight was over, and with a clear result. If Palpy hadn't swung down, this conversation would be Batman vs Darth Charcoal Briquette.

Your argument here is pretty much that if you get into a gun fight and shoot the other guy in the face, a doctor stepping in and saving the guy after you leave makes is so you weren't really able to kill him. In my book, extenuating circumstance saving the loser doesn't diminish the winner.

It's not even to do with that.  Vader's in touch with the Dark Side - the same aspect of the Force that let Palpatine have his own Force Lighting thrown back in his face and melt the Christ out of him only to shrug it off and go on to have a lightsaber duel with Crazygonuts Yoda.  Sidious even mentions the ability to hold back death as a power of the Dark Side.

The only death is dead death.  Not kinda dead, not mostly dead... completely totally heart not beating brain not firing synapses, toast shit ass dead.  He would have no way of knowing the extent of Sidious' tutelage in the ways of the Dark Side - better to just finish him off than let him even have a sliver of a chance at escape. 

I dunno, that's just what you do if you're dedicated.  He thought Skywalker would scoop, but he played it out.  Good for Skywalker.  Your opponent isn't dead till they're at 0 or out of cards.

[Delha]

I don't buy it. That fight was over, and with a clear result. If Palpy hadn't swung down, this conversation would be Batman vs Darth Charcoal Briquette.

Your argument here is pretty much that if you get into a gun fight and shoot the other guy in the face, a doctor stepping in and saving the guy after you leave makes is so you weren't really able to kill him. In my book, extenuating circumstance saving the loser doesn't diminish the winner.

It's not even to do with that.  Vader's in touch with the Dark Side - the same aspect of the Force that let Palpatine have his own Force Lighting thrown back in his face and melt the Christ out of him only to shrug it off and go on to have a lightsaber duel with Crazygonuts Yoda.  Sidious even mentions the ability to hold back death as a power of the Dark Side.

Actually, it is EXACTLY about "that". You said that nobody could kill Vader, and I just pointed out a counterexample.

The only death is dead death.  Not kinda dead, not mostly dead... completely totally heart not beating brain not firing synapses, toast shit ass dead.  He would have no way of knowing the extent of Sidious' tutelage in the ways of the Dark Side - better to just finish him off than let him even have a sliver of a chance at escape. 

I dunno, that's just what you do if you're dedicated.  He thought Skywalker would scoop, but he played it out.  Good for Skywalker.  Your opponent isn't dead till they're at 0 or out of cards.

Coulda-woulda-shoulda has nothing to do with capability. Let's say you've got lethal on board, then lose the flip and die to Crypt on your upkeep. That doesn't mean you couldn't have killed the opponent.

The issue here is that you're claiming that defeat isn't even a possibility for Vader (barring his consent), and that's clearly not true.

[latinjoker]

I didn't think this thread would be this awesome. I got coworkers looking at me like I'm crazy, since I've been laughing my ass off for the past 20 minutes...

FWIW, Batman wins. And he wins with....

Post-Hypnotic Suggestion.

Yup, Vader has been shown to be susceptible to suggestion when he's turned by Palpatine and when he's brought back by Luke. His "inner emotional struggles" leaves him wide open to this. And Batman? It's been proven that he has the ability to make GL think he's blind through post hypnotic suggestion, rendering the ring completely useless (can't project stuff if you can't see what you are projecting or where to project it). And he can also make Aquaman afraid of the water.

Aquaman... afraid of water... you know, that stuff he needs to live?

What good is the power of the dark side if you forget that you even have it?

[Diakonov]

Episodes 1-3 have done some serious damage here.  In 1990 this argument would have ended immediately.

[Delha]

Episodes 1-3 have done some serious damage here.  In 1990 this argument would have ended immediately.

Yeah, Lucas is dead to me.

Godder: I didn't realise Saw was so good as to warrant a sequel
[Klep]: it wasn't
[Klep]: but that's not stopped hollywood before
Apollyon-: look at Star Wars Episode 4, 5, and 6
Apollyon-: they were sequels to some really shitty movies

[Norm4eva]

God dammit.  I'm letting myself fall into a nerd singularity, something I try to avoid.  Not only that, but I've actually found some kind of space-time plateau just past the event horizon.  Question: Who would win in a fight, Batman vs Darth Vader, SUBQUESTION - Did anyone besides Darth Vader in fact have the capacity to kill Darth Vader??

Capability as I used it for the purpose of this conversation also necessitates the will to act on the raw ability.  If Obi-Wan was so capable of just killing Anakin, he'd have simply cut him in half from head to ass when he tried to do that ridiculous front flip over him. 

I will concede the notion that I could have laid out my statement in different and clearer terms; however, I stand by the insinuation on the grounds that, while functioning as both Anakin and Vader, his primary combatants chose to disable him rather than execute him.

[The Atog Lord]

his primary combatants chose to disable him rather than execute him.

Batman tends to disable/stop/capture his opponents rather than killing them. But the question isn't which of Batman and Vader would kill the other in combat. The question is which would defeat the other, for some reasonable definition of defeat. Even in Magic, according to the Unlimited rule book, we aren't killing each other; we're just defeating each other and forcing the other into retreat.

[Norm4eva]

his primary combatants chose to disable him rather than execute him.

Batman tends to disable/stop/capture his opponents rather than killing them. But the question isn't which of Batman and Vader would kill the other in combat. The question is which would defeat the other, for some reasonable definition of defeat. Even in Magic, according to the Unlimited rule book, we aren't killing each other; we're just defeating each other and forcing the other into retreat.

No see you're missing it; Delha objected to my insinuation that no one had the sack to actually off Vader except for Vader himself, which led down a completely different tangential line of discussion.  In the OT it doesn't specify what the nature of the victory actually is, so it's fine if Batman can't or won't kill Vader.  It's virtually irrelevant; Delha did that thing that people on the Interwebs do, where they find one word/phrase in a line of conversation and use it to derail the thread :)

I'm totes over the "who could realistically kill Darth Vader" thing.  Q could do it.  Goku could do it.  I think Vivi probably did it in a past life.  But onscreen only one dude made the choice to off him - that's Anakin "Don't Call Me Dark Helmet" Skywalker.

As for the OP, the relevant conundrum - I think I offered my two bits.

[Delha]

It's virtually irrelevant; Delha did that thing that people on the Interwebs do, where they find one word/phrase in a line of conversation and use it to derail the thread

In fairness, if you just conceded the point, the tangent would have died outright. ^_^

NOW I'm doing that Interwebs thing where people argue over arguing. Yeah, it's petty, I know. Guess I'm just bored.

[Meddling Mike]

I think this question is tough to answer without context, mostly referring to the environment the fight is taking place in and the amount of notice given to the combatants. With no notice in a perfectly sealed racquetball court I'd probably give it to Vader. Force powers + lightsaber > gadgets + hand to hand combat proficiency. I see it going down pretty fast with Vader just choking him to death. Now, on the other hand with time to prepare and the opportunity to use environmental conditions to his advantage I might be more inclined to go with Batman. Somehow even with notice I don't think Vader would be able to make good use of that information. His arrogance might lead him to believe that a mere human should be of no concern to him. Batman on the other hand? EMP wave to shut off Vader's breathing device and artificial limbs and it's game over. Even if we're talking about pre-accident Vader just get the high ground...worked before.

[Twaun007]

.....EMP wave to shut off Vader's breathing device and artificial limbs and it's game over......

Also apparently the suit is not based on electricity, but sith alchemy. so the bat emp defense is null.

Sith alchemy FTW!