Multi-color Suicide

[Guli]

The concept

To use mana sources like city of brass and Tarnished citadel. To use life points in order to get access to all colours.

This access should give the deck more quality because the possibilities are expanded. Colour is no longer an obstacle.

To turn this status of 'low health' into an advantage on itself by using Death's Shadow for a quick finishing blow.


Card pool

Tarnished citadel
City of brass
Death's Shadow
Spellsplitter


Let's brainstorm about this concept and generate some draft lists.

[TopSecret]

omg yes

if you want a more controlling version with the most stable manabase,
you can go with some Reflecting Pool to compliment the massive amount of rainbow lands
Tendo Ice Bridge also does not suck at all

don't know how good the controlling version is but the above buys you one mana base of amazing colors

Also I theorize that Spellsplitter is unimpressive and should be something else
but whatevs
the important part is that you're playing death's shadow and tarnished citadel in the same deck

[Wagner]

I did try Multicolor suicide some years ago, and it was very meh.

I used the following

4 Tarmo
4 FleshReaver
2 Jothun Grunt
4 Confidant
2-3 Reckless Charge
4 Duress/REB
4 Pyro Pillar

It was indeed very very suicidal, but the deck was fun.

[Dr.KnowMaD]

The first thing that came to mind was a Rector build.  Academy Rector, Cabal Therapy, Yawgmoth's Bargain, (form of the dragon) Death's Shadow as the Beats.  From there you got Street Wraith, necro, Skeletal Scrying, Sign in Blood, and a hole slue of cards I can't get of the tongue.  With the rainbows you open this wide up. (yes hate is one of them but when is it not at least a factor)

Maybe just that Oath of Ghouls that you like and Street Wraiths as an engine?

quick thoughts, DrKnowMaD

[brokenbacon]

When you have low life totals it becomes easy for MUD to stall you and kill you via fat men, or for Tendrils to finish you off quickly.

[Guli]

When you have low life totals it becomes easy for MUD to stall you and kill you via fat men, or for Tendrils to finish you off quickly.

Good point, so this problem should be covered main deck. Any idea's?

[Dr.KnowMaD]

Did you read Form of the Dragon?   MMmm.. Bargain is house.

Tendrils on the other hand is deadly regardless.  Four Cabal Therapy, xThoughtseize, xDuress, xMind Twist ex.. is a good start.  Plus a fast bargain and possibly your own tendrils as a back up.  

Not saying this would work, just throw'n out something and pointing that there is more credibility than a quick assessment that MuD Will Crush (which is a good bet seeing that MuD Does Crush a lot)   Still.

With the Ghouls there may be a way to soft lock.  Something like Children of the Korlis.

DrKnowMaD

I was thinking that the new cards allow you to pay life and there could be a good print, the new Hex creature.  Also there is the Tutor and I think Wish that lose a lot of life.  Something like half.  

Hatred?  

[nineisnoone]

calling this suicide is misleading, suicide black was about aggro control not lowering your life total.

might as well play things like death wish or that other black card that draws cards for half your life, then splash green for berserk.

[Guli]

Isn't it possible to lower your life total WHILE you are playing the aggro role? First you use those rainbow lands to get down your important hosers. Turn 1, turn 2 and turn 3 should be dedicated to disruption and tempo anyway. There is not point in playing your clock card in those turns anyway.

My thoughts about tendrills. Letting them chain spells and then storm you to death is not prefarble anyway. You either stop their win condition or disrupt their mana so they can't stack spells. In fact I think this is the most confortable match up when playing with rainbow lands. You either stop them or you don't, taking your own life points to cast your key hosers won't change anything. In this match up the most important thing is to establish a strong board lock with things like teeg/canonist/believer/mage/whatever... When your Death's Shadow comes in he can act as your Tarm squeezing them out of the game.

Against any form of aggro (MUD, fish, ...) your Death's Shadow becomes a huge monster they have to get through it at some point.

[bun]

Death's Shadow can't be the only card that you want low life for, or the deck won't work; he doesn't have evasion or haste.

I do super like this idea though.  Suggestions:

Avatar of Hope
Second Chance
Death Wish
Cleansing
Dystopia
Phyrexian Tyranny

The real question has to be: do you want dark ritual/cabal ritual/yawgmoth's bargain?  It sounds like a stupid question, but if you're going for five colors, I don't think it is.  They're too mana-specific/-intensive, I think, unless you're going straight black.  Necropotence only costs three, so it gets a pass, but I'm not so sure about bargain.

[Guli]

My perspective (not saying it is the correct one) is to take advantage of the colour access and create a colour independent creature base. Maybe this way the meta can be answered more effectively. Two main questions pop up:

What is the current meta?
What creature base would be the best possible answer to it? (not worrying about colours)

If, after finding good solid answers to these questions, the conclusion is that the result creature base used cards from say only 3 colour pools, then their is no need for 5 colours or rainbow lands.

[bun]

My perspective (not saying it is the correct one) is to take advantage of the colour access and create a colour independent creature base. Maybe this way the meta can be answered more effectively. Two main questions pop up:

What is the current meta?
What creature base would be the best possible answer to it? (not worrying about colours)

If, after finding good solid answers to these questions, the conclusion is that the result creature base used cards from say only 3 colour pools, then their is no need for 5 colours or rainbow lands.

The real problems that I see with the current meta are these:

There are two major players that can easily shut down a multicolor manabase, and they are especially rough on this deck: sphere effects and wasteland.
This deck needs the threat density to effectively race decks based around oath, storm, and vault/key, all while getting through their walls of answers.

Death's Shadow could do this, but the deck is more than 4x Death's Shadow 4x Dark Ritual 4x Hatred.  Even if that was the deck, I'm not entirely sure it would be effective against the current field.

What you really need is business spells that do double duty, like the lovely interaction of Cabal Therapy and Abyssal Persecutor.

The new red artifact goyf dude looks effective, assuming those spoilers are accurate.  I'm not sure if the cards exist to support this idea, though.  The only thing to do is comb through cards and find those most effective at answering your opponent's answers while giving a favorable cost to power ratio.  Disciple of the Vault would probably fit into the deck well, but he doesn't do much in the way of messing up my plans.

Affinity provides a good way to dodge sphere effects, but it doesn't provide any real utility either.

I don't know if there is a viable solution.

[Dr.KnowMaD]

Sorry, I was looking at just Deaths Shadow and Basic Plays with it.  

I looked at your latest incarnation.  I'll get to that but first.

Against any form of aggro (MUD, fish, ...) your Death's Shadow becomes a huge monster they have to get through it at some point.

Maybe other Fish players, not MuD Though.  Most list I know and/use have Steel Hellkite which eats the shadow for breakfast then comes back for the rest of the snackies later.  I don't think that new creature is going to cut it.  You need Revoker, otherwise..

Actually, at this point I won't run my Phishy things without it, even if it sits in the board.  Phyrexian Revoker and Meddling Mage is good times.  Add in Vendilion Clique,  Aven Mindcensor,  some Trygon Predator , plus friends and it's a party.  My problem is when I play this deck I feel like I am trying to stop my opponents from playing spells while bringing the beats.  Why is that a problem?  Because I do the same thing when I play MuD but better.  If you do hit my Hellkite with a needle I go for my secondary option to nuke your board and continue to fly over for Five in the meanwhile.  Notice I play fliers, heavy blue, and I use Force of Will (why do I play with this card so much?) , no Teeg main.  He's still in my side.

Now with your list you have lots of nice tools to help this out until Chalice for One comes down.  This is a very common play.  For two can also be seen a lot.  This is why I simply suggest diversifying your converted mana cost a more.  I would likely mull for chalice and play it for one G2 before any other play.  And that's just chalice, what about when Sphere and Rod tech start hitting the board against you as well.  These are all things that can prevent vial from being active.

Not to mention all the Artifact hate going around.  Hows all those vial counters with Hurkyl's , Claims, Grudges.

I love vial and it is very strong in bear beats.  Its mana (my favorite part), its creature speed, and counter protection plus much more subtleties.   I just feel there might be too much focus on it.  With out Teeg you might want Chalice yourself.  Chalice of the Void complements Revoker/Mage nicely.  Engineered Explosives could also be very, very good in a five color build.  Maybe more of a Tool box with needle, ex.. and use four Chalice.  Trinket mage would fit and be pitchable to FoW if needed.  There are so many options at that point.  I personally would keep it simple and mostly creature based if possible.  Like the new planeswalker killer and such.

On a note closely related, I never cared for the Arbiter.  If Its payed for you still get the search.

I do like Death's Shadow as a finisher.  Do you need four?

I would almost like to see Ancient Tomb for a bit more boost.

Path to Exile is much better in this.  You have four Ghost Quarters (highly underrated card) and you are trying to win via life lose (attacking with creatures) and the soft lock.  Swords makes this harder to do. The only thing is gaining a bundle off your own shadow can be helpful.

Otherwise it is a good deck idea and looks fun to play.

Lates, DrKnowMaD

[tony3]

I think if you should definitely look into including StP if you're going with the multi color/Death's Shadow route. 

Just be careful to make sure it's actually worth it.  Death's Shadow by itself is not worth losing 15 life for.


Off the top of my head, this is where I'd probably start:

4x City of Brass
4x other rainbow pain land
6 fetches
6x duals

5x mox
1x lotus
1x lotus petal

4x death's shadow
4x tarmogoyf
4x dark confidant
3x academy rector

4x therapy
4x stp
1x bargain
1x form of the dragon
4x berserk
4x sign in blood

SB:
4x pyrostatic pillar
3x tin street hooligan/shattering spree/viridian shaman?
4x chalice of the void
4x leyline of the void

[Guli]

What about this

+

Necro and Bargain are more combo deck cards in my opinion. Why bother with things like Shadow, just kill them with storm or TV or whatever that wins on the spot?

Sylvan library might be interesting and will offer a lot of top deck manipulation when you are out of life. I feel this deck might need true believer to stop any shenanigans against the pilot. I find Believer important in the context of Hurkyl's Recalls, Oath and duress effects. (Believer+ You don't want all your revokers, vials, clamps and whatever else is on the table bounced back.

Sylvan library is also interesting with any card draw. I am thinking about clamps, sensei top,

And I am thinking about Mox Opal because we named a lot of Artifacts.

Quick draft:

4x Aether Vial
4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
4x Mox opal
1x Black lotus
1x Lotus Petal
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

3x Spellsplitter
3x Hex Parasite
4x Revoker
4x Leonin Relic-Warder
3x Goblin welder

4x Skullclamp
4x Sylvan library

4x True believer
3x Death's shadow
3x Trygon Predator
2x Crucible

[Fraggle]

...if you are going to go for it you might as well GO FOR IT!

+

Optional...  

BROKEN!

Lich gets you to 0.

Spirit Link gets you draw (or nullifies opponents unshrouds) , Flickering Ward = Evasion / Protection.

[Fraggle]

...if you are going to go for it you might as well GO FOR IT!

+

Optional...  

BROKEN!

Lich gets you to 0.

Spirit Link (or Vampiric Link)gets you draw (or nullifies opponents unshrouds) , Flickering Ward = Evasion / Protection.

[Fraggle]

realistically though here is what I think a good basis would be:

4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 Tarnished Citidel
4 swamp
2 island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Other Fetch

4 lim duls vault
4 pox
4 Death's Shadow
1 Necropotence
4 Thoughtseize
4 Night's Whisper
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ancestrall
4 Sink Hole
2 Pithing Needle
4 chain of vapor
4 Echoing Truth

You can "combo" with Lim Duls Vault.  ...as in you can take as much damage as you want when the time is right.

The rest just goes with the theme.  If they play a permanent you bounce it and force them to discard.

You use pox, sinkhole, and strip set to keep their choice colors to a minimum.  If this does not cut it try some chalices or something.

Granted I'm not a pro at vintage anymore I just applicate the fact that you humor me with allowing me to post my hair-brained ideas.

obviously you would pull their creature hate first.

Thanks

[Dr.KnowMaD]

What about this

+

Necro and Bargain are more combo deck cards in my opinion. Why bother with things like Shadow, just kill them with storm or TV or whatever that wins on the spot?

Sylvan library might be interesting and will offer a lot of top deck manipulation when you are out of life. I feel this deck might need true believer to stop any shenanigans against the pilot. I find Believer important in the context of Hurkyl's Recalls, Oath and duress effects. (Believer+ You don't want all your revokers, vials, clamps and whatever else is on the table bounced back.

Sylvan library is also interesting with any card draw. I am thinking about clamps, sensei top,  2x Crucible

Nice, this is very good.  I know it can be tweaked but I like the shell.  What about with confidants also?  

I can't say for anyone else but for me CoW has been a key effect to have in my builds.  I can't wait for this to be on a stick.  Hopefully it'll rock when it does happen, until then.  

Still not a fan of the Spellspliter but I know it has a roll to play, I am just not sold on it.  I am interested in how it turns out.

You don't run Pridemage, I haven't gotten to play with the Warder.  I like them and want to, just haven't yet.  How are they?

Yeah, when I first peeped the Shadow I thought, life lost, ok one of my favorites is Yawgmoth's Bargin, so then rector and yeah, I didn't really think things through an much less that someone would actually do it.  Hey thats cool though.  How does it work?  Reanimate is another idea if you want one.  (Thank you, I'll be here all night.)  

Lates, DrKnowMaD/

[Fraggle]

Yeah, when I first peeped the Shadow I thought, life lost, ok one of my favorites is Yawgmoth's Bargin, so then rector and yeah, I didn't think someone would actually do it.  Hey thats cool though.  How does it work?  Reanimate is another idea if you want one.  

I think this thread should seriously consider Lim-Dul's Vault.

It's good as is, and "faster" than Sylvian Library as you can do as much damage as you want when you want.

i.e. Cast Death's Shadow

opponents EOT --> Lim-Dul's Vault


Swing.

EDIT:...in that case he does not need his own archetype he can go in anything that runs vault, or anything that can run vault.

[Dr.KnowMaD]

Yeah, when I first peeped the Shadow I thought, life lost, ok one of my favorites is Yawgmoth's Bargin, so then rector and yeah, I didn't think someone would actually do it.  Hey thats cool though.  How does it work?  Reanimate is another idea if you want one.  

I think this thread should seriously consider Lim-Dul's Vault.

It's good as is, and "faster" than Sylvian Library as you can do as much damage as you want when you want.

i.e. Cast Death's Shadow

opponents EOT --> Lim-Dul's Vault


Swing.

EDIT:...in that case he does not need his own archetype he can go in anything that runs vault, or anything that can run vault.

What Fraggle said.  I.E second that.

We should consider all these possibilities.  Using the vault would also have force and the blue/black pack going. 4x D.Shadow as the win.  As Stated before, why not just use tendrils?

I like the Library in this, It is card draw and not just topdeck fun.  Maybe Library of Alexandria as a compliment to the draw pack.

DrKnowMaD

[Fraggle]

Yeah, when I first peeped the Shadow I thought, life lost, ok one of my favorites is Yawgmoth's Bargin, so then rector and yeah, I didn't think someone would actually do it.  Hey thats cool though.  How does it work?  Reanimate is another idea if you want one.  

I think this thread should seriously consider Lim-Dul's Vault.

It's good as is, and "faster" than Sylvian Library as you can do as much damage as you want when you want.

i.e. Cast Death's Shadow

opponents EOT --> Lim-Dul's Vault


Swing.

EDIT:...in that case he does not need his own archetype he can go in anything that runs vault, or anything that can run vault.

What Fraggle said.  I.E second that.

Additionally, when others are busy with their less efficient wins we could build a deck but nothing of the best 5 color disruption/draw mana (all be it cheap mana) can buy, and win with that "combo"!

EDIT: a 3 mana 2 card combo is approaching the awesomeness that was flash ...but not quite.

[tony3]

One thing people need to keep in mind is that good deck > good theme.  Don't plug in self damage stuff just for the sake of damaging yourself.  What you want is to take guys that would normally be bad because of excessive damage they deal to you, and find a way to abuse that and turn it into a positive, so not only do you get a powerful effect, but the 'drawback' is suddenly helping you as well.   Just don't focus on the theme, focus on making the deck run well.  Adding jank, just to fit the theme is going to result in the deck just being inconsistent and ineffective.

[serracollector]

4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Surgical Extraction ( http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42123.0 )
4 x Force of Will
4 x Death's Shadow
4 x Gush
1 x Fastbond
2 x Sylvan Library
1 x Concordant Crossroads
1 x Regrowth
1 x Ancestral
1 x Time Walk
1 x Brainstorm
1 x Mystical Tutor
1 x Merchant Scroll
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Imperial Seal
1 x yawgmoths win
5 x moxen
1 x lotus
1 x petal
1 x mox opal
2 x Preordain
1 x (insert bounce spell)
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
3 polluted delta
3 misty rainforest
2 island


Because its more fun to hit your opponents with hasty fatties than cast Tendrils  

[Guli]

I think this thread should seriously consider Lim-Dul's Vault.
It's good as is, and "faster" than Sylvian Library as you can do as much damage as you want when you want.

i.e. Cast Death's Shadow
opponents EOT --> Lim-Dul's Vault
Swing.

EDIT:...in that case he does not need his own archetype he can go in anything that runs vault, or anything that can run vault.

I like it, I really do. Might want to have S.Top so you can make it interesting with vial. Just hate the fact that it is top deck and not hand.

With vial@1 on the board Shadow is a potential monster with Lim-Dul's Vault. Killing a creature while top decking a bomb would be nice.

@Dr.KnowMaD About Spellsplitter, maybe protection is not needed and there are indeed stronger ways to pump Shadow.

I don't know what the best draw engine is. But considering, Sylvan and Confidant look both very strong.

[bun]

I like running 4x Library and 4x Confidant.  I feel that it is very strong to run both.

[Guli]

How is this for a start to make this thread more concrete: (we can explore other directions later)

Lands:
4x Tarnished Citadel
4x City of Brass

Clock:
4x Death's Shadow

Draw engine:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Sylvan Library

Tutor:
4x Lim-Dul's Vault

[serracollector]

Im not understanding why you wouldn't just run the Fastbond+Gush combo over Confidant.  Yes you want your life to be low, but you also want to be able to control it.  Unless you have top or sylvan +2 lands on top, you will die. Fastbond + Gush will get you to a descently low life total asap, and probably draw you into more than 1 Death's shadow.  This knocks out the cities and tarnished citidels, but you can just play a tons of fetchs. 

[bun]

I suppose that's true.  And you can find fastbond with tons of stuff in this deck.  That is probably superior to having cityofbrass.manabase lol.

Confidant is still great though, at least as a 3-of, because he beats and comes down turn 1 often for immediate pressure, and he soaks up answers.

[vassago]

Adding jank, just to fit the theme is going to result in the deck just being inconsistent and ineffective.

SMASHING PEOPLE WITH JANK IS FUN! picture related.