Screw Sphere of Resistance! Workshop Aggro at its Finest

[Prospero]

What are your thoughts on omen machine? I think it can be great if resolved.

Not a big fan of Omen Machine, but if you want to run it, run it.

Yeah I know forgemaster shops or whatever they call it now. should I run mana vault with 4 wurmcoils main?

I would probably look to find a slot for it, yes.

[msg67183]

If I bring my crucibles from sb to main then I wont need to sb for landstill and ill have more space for fish and shops

[vaughnbros]

Can anyone think of any possible changes for this list? I just want to see more communication on here.

Your deck is very heavy at the top end of its curve.  You don't have many strong tempo plays at the bottom end of your curve.  This means that if your mana is put under pressure, or your opponent lands a Sphere effect against you, or your opener didn't have the requisite five to six mana (before your opponent goes to work on you), that you're going to be working from behind for the whole game.  If you hit your mana, you'll be able to drop bombs.  If you don't, or if your mana is punished, you're going to be in a world of hurt.

I disagree.  He only has 7 spells that cost 5 or more, he has 28 mana sources, and is not running sphere of resistance.  The most recent grudge match victor was running 7 spells that cost 5 or more, 27 mana sources, and 3 sphere of resistance.  I'd consider this deck to be in a much better position as far as mana is concerned.  

So are u saying like 4 legionnare 3 revoker? I like legionnare and have wanted to try it.

I agree that you should be cutting precursors and slash panthers, but I don't necessarily think legionnaire is what you are looking for.  That is a card that you play more to beat fish than anything.  I think a couple of equipment, like of fire and ice and 4 revokers along with a singleton crucible or karn would be optimal.  Revokers are quick pressure as well as being able to deny mana.  Then Karn and the equipment are great for providing board impact immediately when you have enough mana.

The spells that he wants to cast, in order to win the game, start at four.  Many of his game winning spells are at six.  Splitting a Shop deck into mana sources and spells (divided equally) isn't the best of strategies, in my opinion.  The extra two, three, or four slots that he can open up with a tighter build are all very, very important.  Shop decks already straddle that line.  I think it's better to have an early game plan, and a deck that reflects that decision, than to have a deck that relies on the top end of its curve, almost exclusively, to win the game.  Shop Aggro decks have a clock in every game where, if they haven't hit their 20 points of damage, their odds of winning start dropping precipitously.  When the opposing pilot is able to cast their spells, and effectively interact with you, they start playing spells that have a lot more impact on the game than a hasted 4/2's.

The beautiful thing about this site, Lance, is that you're more than welcome to disagree with me.  I think I'm right, but the only opinion that matters in this one is the one of the person making the final cuts to their deck.  This is the case with most things in life.

Yes I know that is the beautiful thing about blogs i was just stating my opinion so my message was clear.  And I think you and I agree about this deck on 57 slots, however I personally like singletons in decks without tutors and you do not which is where we differ in our deck building.

Yeah I know forgemaster shops or whatever they call it now. should I run mana vault with 4 wurmcoils main?

If you are going to run Mana Vault, which I think you should, I would probably cut another mana source, namely 1 of your cities.

What are your thoughts on omen machine? I think it can be great if resolved.

I discussed this card with you before Matt and with how the current meta game is I don't think it a wise choice, maybe if there were more gush decks around.

If I bring my crucibles from sb to main then I wont need to sb for landstill and ill have more space for fish and shops

You will need sb slots for combo then.  In an aggro build like this crucibles are not as big of a weapon

[msg67183]

Should I just cut crucibles altogether? Maybe run jester's caps?

[vaughnbros]

Should I just cut crucibles altogether? Maybe run jester's caps?

I think they should definitely stay in the side board, from my experience its the best card to prevent a mana lock.

[msg67183]

The biggest reason I dont like swords is because they do nothing on their own.

[vaughnbros]

The biggest reason I dont like swords is because they do nothing on their own.

Yeh that is a problem with them, but you would have 17 creatures + 4 factories with my proposed changes.  Also generally connecting a single time with them you get more than enough value out of it and they make revokers and factories much bigger threats.  The two best swords I would explore would be fire/ice and light/shadow.  

If you don't like them Batterskull is usually pretty brutal against fish and shops, which can operate as a creature in its own or make your lodestones nearly unstoppable. However, the clock it generates is not nearly as fast as a 5 drop should produce.

[msg67183]

What about body and mind? Pro fish deck? Pro jace? Claim? Steel sabotage? Plus it makes 2/2s....

[vaughnbros]

What about body and mind? Pro fish deck? Pro jace? Claim? Steel sabotage? Plus it makes 2/2s....

The problem I see with body and mind is that it needs to stay on the table and hit multiple times to have a strong impact on the game.  The wolves are pretty good, but a 2/2 isn't all that impressive.  Also the milling can pose to be a problem with body and mind, while in some situations it can be good in others very bad.  Whereas fire/ice and light/shadow generally have a tremendous impact on the game from a single hit.

[msg67183]

Im just talking about this meta where there are alot of noble fish and bant decks. Body and mind seems best for its protection.

[vaughnbros]

Im just talking about this meta where there are alot of noble fish and bant decks. Body and mind seems best for its protection.

Light and shadow provides protection from swords to plowshares and path, which i see as being much more important.  Then you have fire and ice which pretty much forces a block.  So they all have certain advantages against fish.  If you like the advantages of body and mind the most then go with that one my initial point was that your idea of adding equipment to this deck was a good one.

[msg67183]

I think I found my 7 cards: 4 revokers, mana vault and 2 sword of BAM

[msg67183]

I really enjoy discussing about my deck. So I shall pose another question. What should my sb look like? With the new changes to the main the sb needs some change too.

[msg67183]

I guess the things I should point out are that sword of BAM is terrible against dredge and revoker is not too great in that matchup either. So if I take out my usual plus 4 revokers and 2 swords thats 14 slots for "dredge hate" im thinking either steel hellkites or ratchet bombs or something along those lines. Just want to hear peoples thoughts.

[msg67183]

What do u guys think of this sb:
4 cage
4 relic
4 hellkite
2 crucible
1 tormods

[msg67183]

I think I am going to cut the cities and run as my 9 cards: 4 revoker 4 legionnare and vault

And as for a sb:
3 relic
3 cage
3 crucible
3 duplicant
3 hellkite

Thoughts?

[msg67183]

Im curious if I could slip 3 forgemasters into my deck to increase consistency? Im not sure yet but if I do that do I necessarily have to run sundering titan also? Just want peoples thoughts.

[Prospero]

Im curious if I could slip 3 forgemasters into my deck to increase consistency? Im not sure yet but if I do that do I necessarily have to run sundering titan also? Just want peoples thoughts.

Forgemaster, like Smokestack or Slash Panther, is a strategy.  If you're going to build your deck around the Forgemaster, you can probably build something pretty strong.  When you start taking cards from one strategy, and adding them to another, it may not be what you hoped for.  Cards like Slash Panther and Smokestack (for example), don't work well together. 

Also, we come back to the issue of your curve.  Spheres and Wastelands are very, very good against your deck.

[msg67183]

Well the deck im playing and testing currently has, instead of 4 panthers and 3 precursors, vault 4 revokers and 2 crucibles. I was also considering ankh of mishra instead of crucible.

[msg67183]

Im just not sure if ankh is playable right now due to all the aggro creatures roaming around. Plus crucible prevents me from losing to wasteland which seems to be a downfall.

[msg67183]

I haven't put an updated list of my deck out for awhile, so here's the most updated version of my aggro mud list:

4 shop
4 factory
4 tomb
4 wasteland
2 city of traitors
Strip mine
Tolarian
1 buried ruin

4 lodestone
4 wurmcoil
4 metamorph
3 revoker

4 thorn
4 wire
4 cotv
Trini
2 CoW
Crypt
Sol ring
Vault
Lotus
5 moxen

Sb:
4 relic
4 cage
4 dismember
3 hellkite

[ModflyDesign]

I just spit Soda when I read that last one Gottshall. Slash Panthers are being put to sleep. I agree with Nick though for the changes, i'm not a fan of the swords in Stax.  And currently, you are going to want an easy way to deal with flyers.  Lots of Trygons and Delvers running around these days.  If you don't like Dismembers, then maybe Razormane, Triskelion, or Hellkite.

OR (now this might be a bit crazy of an idea) you could take a deck that has been tested and tuned and use that. Martello Shops is a great deck.  Nick's Espresso list is a great deck. These lists are very easy to find.  Copy/Paste/Practice.  Instead of constantly buying and selling your stuff, get the cards to play 3 Shops lists, have them all sleeved the same, and that way you can pick and choose depending on the current Meta.

Not exactly sure why you think you are going to break the format with your Omen Machine or Ankh of Mishra ideas.  If it was going to work, it would have been done by someone already. (And don't say it works on Cockatrice...)

[Wagner]

If it was going to work, it would have been done by someone already.

Right, let us never try to innovate! If a better way existed, someone else would have found, things should never progress. Come on...

This board is full of people coming up with new ideas that work all the time. Of course, they don't always work, but your attitude toward innovation is just sad.

[msg67183]

I approve this message

[Prospero]

If it was going to work, it would have been done by someone already.

Right, let us never try to innovate! If a better way existed, someone else would have found, things should never progress. Come on...

This board is full of people coming up with new ideas that work all the time. Of course, they don't always work, but your attitude toward innovation is just sad.

Everybody learns differently, but it definitely helped that when I was first picking up Shops I was able to get quality lists, and play them.  Sure, there's no innovation, to start, but you learn important things; why a card is played in a deck, what's strong in various matches, what's not, etc.  Those lessons are necessary in order to make informed decisions regarding changes that you might want to make with decks moving forward.

Innovation is really important, but it's also important to know what your goals are.  If you're just throwing stuff up on a wall to see what sticks then you're doing it wrong.  Know what the problem is, determine a solution, and execute.  If you're new to a pillar, or a deck (though I'm not speaking of anyone in particular) then you could do far worse things than copy a list and jam a bunch of games with it.  It definitely helps to have a sensei, but not everybody is lucky enough to have that.

[ModflyDesign]

@ Wagner, You are absolutely correct.  My comment however was directed towards him personally as I know him and he plays at my store. I was advising him to do something that I feel would help him in the grand scheme of things instead of him wasting his time and money.  Obviously the game needs innovation.  Next time I will send him a text or something. 

Keeping with the topic however,
Matt I found this list for you that is something like what Lance was saying.
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1582

It still has slash panthers but they can be replaced.

[msg67183]

The only real "innovation" for this deck is that I dont play sphere of resistance and im not regretting it. Everything else in my list has been seen in other shop decks of the recent varieties. No orb of dreams, no omen machine, no ankh of mishra.

[TheShop]

Uba stax didn't run spheres.  It is possible, but past stax builds didn't have to worry about trygon and ancient grudge.  At least sphere prevents these for 1 more turn.  The concept isn't really innovative. 

My concern with less disruptive aggro or forms of tempo stax (waste + dude) is that we have to jump through so many more hoops to win than other aggro lists.  Legacy zoo can drop a 3/3 for 1 mana, vintage fish can drop a 4/5 for 2 mana,  we get 4/2 at 4 mana, 5/3 at 4 mana, 5/5 at 5 mana, and 6/6 at 6 mana.  While workshops do accelerate faster to those higher costs, the costs are paid using more cards than other decks.   Land, Mox, goyf is 3 cards.  Land, Mox, pridemage is 3 cards.  Any of our creatures require at least 3 mana sources to cast if workshop isn't on the table.  I don't like the inherent card disadvantage we have when compared to other forms of aggro.  Tempo aggro seems to fit in other archetypes better inherently for this reason.  A single wasteland or counterspell is so much more damaging to a shop deck than other types of aggro.  Our costs of casting 2 creatures in a single turn using our manabase are not equivalent to any other aggro deck in vintage dropping similar threats.

I am not saying aggro shops aren't viable, it has just always bothered me that our creatures are so much less efficient- so while I have sleeved up aggro before, I have never liked it.  I feel that prison or forgemaster with multiple prison elements is a better fit for our card pool.

[msg67183]

The meta right now is mostly creature decks or shops. Alot less broken decks than last summer. I play 4x wurmcoils main deck and I dont regret it. He is just an amazing card for the deck. Trumps the mirror with ease. And against creatures he laughs. Even if they STP him uh gain the 6 life equivalent to 1 swing. Then u just drop more threats. I love my deck and despise sphere of resistance. Just my opinion.

[msg67183]

I know everyone is totally against me for playing shops aggro without sphere of resistanc4 e, but now I have decided to try this list, it goes all in on the "aggro" portion of shops aggro:

4 workshop
4 tomb
4 factory
4 wasteland
Tolarian
Strip

Lotus
5 mox
Ring
Vault
Crypt

4 thorn
4 wire
4 chalice
Trini

4 lodestone
4 revoker
4 metamorph
4 legionnare
4 wurmcoil

Sb:

4 relic
4 cage
4 dismember
3 hellkite

I would like anyone who reads this to leave feedback on their thoughts