My oath of hermit druids

[TheWhiteDragon]

So...here's something I've never done and never thought I'd do.  I'm posting my decklist before I ever launch it at a tourney.  Why?  Because I need critique?  Because it isn't performing?  No - because I will never make it to another tournament.  Ding, dong, thewhitedragon is dead - as far as Vintage goes.  To state in brief, this deck has kicked many an ass on MWS and wrecks most builds out there.  It has crazy game vs shops, is quite good vs fish, is at the very least on par with control (but testing has shown it to have the edge), and it's worst matchup is all-in ANT or belcher when I don't have FoW or mistep on turn 0...but then again, what deck is good against decks going off on turn 0 when you have no 0 mana counters?  Without further ado - Oath of Hermit Druids:

// Lands
    1  Bayou
    3  Misty Rainforest (or -1 and +1 ponder)
    2  Tropical Island
    1  Underground Sea
    4  Forbidden Orchard
    2  Island
    2  Polluted Delta
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    1  Blightsteel Colossus
    1  Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
    1  Tinker
    2  Dragon Breath
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Thoughtseize
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Daze
    3  Cabal Therapy
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Careful Study
    1  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Time Walk
    2  Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4  Oath of Druids
    1  Yawgmoth's Will (or -1 and +1 noxious revival)
    1  Sol Ring
    2  Beast Within
    1  Mental Misstep
    1  Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 2  Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [JGC] Hermit Druid
SB: 2  Narcomoeba
SB: 1  Sutured Ghoul
SB: 1 [ARB] Lord of Extinction
SB: 1  Dread Return
SB: 2  Bridge from Below
SB: 1  Perish
(Or -1 claim, -1 etruth, -1 perish, and +3 pithing needle)

The maindeck might look fairly standard for dragon breath oath - the differences being the therapies and careful study mainly.  The 4 daze is probably a shocker to some who prefer mana drain or spell pierce.  So, I'll explain a few choices.

Daze - This counter is insane, but seems to have lost favor in the face of spell pierce.  It stops welder, meddling mage, pridemage, and other critters that are obviously a problem for oath, but it goes beyond just hitting creatures.  Most decks tend to A) cast spells with 2+ mana open to dodge pierce, or B) tap out to cast the biggest spell possible with their mana.  Often decks will go balls out to win faster because the likelihood of your next draw being that drain/pierce/force that they fear in the first place is too great.  Also, when they see you tapped out, they have false security that their 3UU will land that tezzeret or whatnot.  Also, you can get a seize or therapy off and then have additional disruption with your tapped out sea.  Ever thoughtseize your opponent with pierce in hand and see that they have island, crypt, tinker, and ancestral?  Sucks to pick one and then let them get off the other brokenness...but nice if you can yank that ancestral only to sandbag their island, crypt, tinker play with daze.  The biggest thing though is being able to push through your own bomb with backup.  Island, crypt (mox, mox), tinker with daze backup is awesome.  A turn 1 oath and then a turn 2 beast within on their land with daze backup is great when they spend their 1 mana to dig with preordain or use it to try to stop your beast within with spell pierce.  Tapping out to go balls out with fast bombs and running effectively 8 force of wills when they have no open mana or they are on the draw is just fantastic.

Cabal therapy - beyond being necessary for hermit druid to clear the road after transformation, it 1) is an easy blind call on FoW if you are dropping a fast oath and are on the play, 2) it is often like extra thoughtseizes, which it pairs nicely with, 3) it can pitch either of my "shuffle into library" critters when i draw them, 4) it acts as a gaeas blessing or krosan rec should I unluckily flip a critter with my second critter as my last card to draw, 5) it is awesome in the mirror, which is a bitch for oath.

Strip mine - it kills LoA and bazaar mainly.  Vs those two cards, I'll burn a tutor for strip so i don't lose to dredge or get buried in CA.  It also kills maze of ith for BSC and karakas for Emrakul - yes, this has happened.  It also cuts off opposing orchards.  It's also nice synergy with daze in the early game.

Careful study - not only does it work wonders at dumping combo pieces from hermit, it pitches drawn oathbots and dragon breaths - and cheaper than thirst.  This card is highly underrated in a deck that can utilize the discard like this one.

Mental mistep - used to be MisD for the turn 1 protection, but since it hits plow, path, darkblast, key, and duress/seize it is very good.  I go up and down on the number I prefer...sometimes I like up to 3...never 4...I think 1 or 2 is ideal.  It's extra turn 1 protection and I can drop mox, orchard, oath and free counter that spell pierce - solid.

dragon breath - I run 2 because it is fairly common to flip 1 with 2 breaths and 2 critters...also it is hardcastable on BSC, even after tinker.  Careful study away my dragon breath and draw into tinker?  Sounds like a nice trade.  It is also useful with hasting a hermit, though I usually yank one after sb.

The sideboard - why hermit?

I use this sideboard for many reasons.  First off, it's f*ing fast.  It can easily race dredge or storm.  It is bonkers with mental mistep, 4 fow, 4 daze.  Turn 1 mox, tropical, hermit...I have 9 free counters....gg.

I played hermit as a deck all its own, but dredge hate would kill it....I then ran oath as a sb plan and found g2/3 I usually stuck with oath, and vs stax/fish, I usually wanted oath g1....so I swapped the order, and it is amazing.  Hermit dodges almost all of the oath hate.  Claims, rays, etc are all dead vs hermit (good luck claiming the dragon breath after 3 therapies).  Oath hate is usually disenchantish nature while hermit hate is usually anti-dredge.  The dredge hate slows oath a turn, sometimes, but is LARGELY dead slots.  Oath hate does almost nothing to hermit (and if they see emrakul, they almost never board in plows).  My theory on transformational sideboard is that one plan should address the weak matches of the main plan and that both plans should minimize hate-overlap as much as possible.  Hermit is fast enough to race combo and dredge, oath is stable and resilient enough to fight shops and fish.  Both avoid the hate that hoses the other.

G3, the opponent has no clue what to bring in.  Sometimes Oath can ride g1/2 on its own, but if they have massive oath hate g2, then a hermit game 3 will just crush.  The nice thing is that there are enough slots to bring in extra etruth, claims, etc if need be to strengthen oath for g2.  Perish is an experiment, but seems to help vs noblefish with qasalis, true believers, etc (and hermit too is a decent game vs that).

The key is to play either build aggressively.  You have counters, but they are early game counters and for punching through your 2 mana win cards.  Go balls to the wall.  This has been tested considerably and does very well.

Questions?  Comments?

[Leooooh]

Great primer bro!

I always hate to face this deck playing RG Stax. The transformational sb wrecks my sb options. If I bring in Nature's Claim, you swap to Hermit Druid. If I bring in the grave hate you keep the oath plan. It is a good deck. A very unusual Oath of Druids build.

Great reading!

[voltron00x]

Interesting, this is kind of the reverse of what I tried, starting Oath and swapping into Druid.  Love to know how this works out!

[Ten-Ten]

Excellent read.

I was actually thinking of putting together a Druid tranformational SB for my Gush control deck but my SB was more torwards a turn two full yard yawg will/Krosan Rec. into Tendrils via Druid 
Seemed hella fragile so I left it alone and then I came across your primer

I'm not a big fan of Oath but will definitely give this one a try.
 

[evouga]

Is there any way of carving out more sideboard space by making the creature package less awkward? It sucks that two slots have to be burned swapping finishers in and out. Is there anything better than Bogardan Hellkite that could be used as a finisher in both decks?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Good questions all.  The strength of THIS transformation sb is exactly as leoooh says - hate vs one plan is 95% blank vs the other version.  There is minimal overlap in gameplans, which is what a transform sb should do.  It basically gives you a brand new deck vs a tough match, with their deck becoming even more diluted with blanks.  Oath is the most resilient of the two and has stronger matches vs most archetypes, so it is in the main.  The fact that you can turn 1 oath with orchard and turn 2 get a hasty BSC means it is fast enough to kill tendrils and dredge too...hermit just needs less combo pieces vs non-creature decks to kill on turn 2.  Because of the strength and versatility in oath, it is better to start with oath and go into the hermit sb.  Another reason for the order is that oath takes some splash damage vs hermit (leyline/swords) that hit the dragon breaths and BSC.  This is still only a one turn stall, but those come in vs hermit a lot.  Nobody boards them in vs oath though, esp if you flip emrakul.  That means you will be facing true believer, meddling mage (naming oath), nature's claims, and ray of rev when you go into hermit...and suffer 0 splash damage.  Also, the fact that shops are rampant at the moment is a reason for the order.  Oath needs 2 mana once, and can often get this on turn 1.  Then it can just sit and wait to build a mana base or draw orchard.  It needs no other mana afterwards to just win.  Vs shops, hermit needs mana on turn 2, runs 0 basics, and is -2 lands for cutting the islands.  While overall less mana intensive, hermit needs mana on turn 2 to go off, and wastelands can hurt.  Additionally, spheres make dread return cost mana, and therapies cost mana if combo pieces are in hand.  It is a much tougher match to beat shops with hermit than with oath.

The reason I feel hermit is not a good complement to tezz or gush is because shops are equally big problems for those decks and the sb slots required make tezz/gush unable to adequately boost their main plan vs shops, too.  This version of oath already runs dragon breath, therapies, thirst, careful study, jace, BSC (to activate under tangles or use mana eot if needed)...making the cards you need to board in minimal for the combo.  The basic lands also make it tough to transform with tezz, since they usually run 3 or more and you don't want to cut out TOO much mana for hermit.  Other transformational sb plans for oath either are missing overlapping pieces or they suffer splash damage (dragon/tezz...both hurt by nature's claims).  Also, decks like tezz seem to be slower than cannons like hermit (which is why hermit is a good supplement to a slower, yet more stable, oath plan).  Decks like dragon take a ton of splash damage.  Most other transformations require all 15 sb slots.

There is no cheaper (slot amount) hermit combo available that will kill on turn 2.  I've looked.  Running krosan/yawg will requires 3 mana over 3 turns, or 6 mana over 2 turns.  In a deck with no basics, that is a very tall order.  This package requires only 1 mana on turn 2 to win.  Not so tough.  Also, running 2 narco, 2 bridge maximizes your odds of having 3 creatures to dread return, while utilizing all therapies and clearing the path/your hand of pieces, regardless of what pieces are in hand.  Decks that run 3 narco tend to pitch 1 to FoW, and can often get stuck unable to go off.also, if a narco is killed in response to the first therapy, you are screwed...this way if one gets killed, you get tokens to replace it.  Overall, hermit is much more fragile, but very explosive and can steal wins when an opponent boards in the oath hate.  Also, g3, as I said, your opponent is baffled on how to sb.  There is always the tinker/bsc with counter backup plan B in both deck plans too.  The cheap, free counters make this insane as well (land, crypt, tinker, daze backup).

Can anyone see a less slot intensive hermit combo that I am missing? It still has to kill on turn 2 with no more than 1 mana (the purpose of running a bazooka).

The only considerations I can see are:  1) only 6 draw...but there are 3 tutors + 5 bombs + sensei already.  2) lots of slots required for hermit...but any "combo" that can kill so fast and consistently against a grave-hateless deck requires at least as many slots.  3) lots of dead cards hermit can draw.  I think adding a frantic search or second careful study (or even a ponder) could alleviate concerns 1 and 3 simultaneously.  The deck runs, instead of lots of draw, lots of cheap disruption to push through two-mana bombs that only really need to get into play in order to win.

The "extra" sb may need tweaking.  The claims/etruth are meant to bounce/kill hate or disruptive bears.  Perish helps oath vs a pridemage/trygon deck, but really it is just cute, not optimal.  Perhaps a show and tell would be better as a way to dodge all the oath hate cards.  Also, I have tinkered (pun) with inkwell in the sb as a house vs fish.  I've even cut the etruth for 2 show and tell at times, but that is a meta call.  I tried needle, but it is almost always unneeded.  At one point I had claims, truth, needle, and strip in the main.  Now I just have 2 beast withins, though...so only the strip is necessary.

Any suggestions on the extra sb slots?

[marcb]

This might a bit off topic, but how do you see this deck relating to Minus Six which starts out as Dragon and SB's into Oath to ignore most of the graveyard hate in g2 and 3? Do you feel this has an advantage over Minus six's plan of evading hate in sideboarded games?

Marc

Edit: Shax, thanks for pointing that out. I guess in retrospect they weren't calling it Minus Six when it was Dragon SB into Oath, so that's a good point. Feel free to ignore the post then.

[Shax]

Actually as of late Minus Six players switch Dragon into Tezzrett, which is even better than any thing Oath could ever do.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The biggest difference I see is the splash damage of nature's claim/pithing needle.  Both those cards greatly affect both dragon and tezz's plans.  Hermit and oath have very little splash crossover.  Also, stax decks are a hurt for both dragon and tezz.  Dragon can get its bazaar stripped easily, while tezz has to play 2-5cc colored spells, and usually a few of them, through spheres.  Oath can drop one 2cc spell and be in a good state vs shops with that one card.  Also, dragon is typically the faster of the two, and then switches to a slower control plan to play tezz.  Oath of Hermit Druids plays an already fast and aggressive oath deck and then boards into an even faster hermit to fight combo/storm decks.  Dragon also is a lot more fragile than oath.  Oath, especially with haste critters and emrakul being self-protected, really just has the oath to protect and is only killed by natures claim/pridemage.  Dragon on the other hand gets disrupted by things that kill the enchantment, things that kill the land, things that kill the creature, or things that kill the grave.  Just about ANY hate card will hurt dragon.  The fact that spheres slow it and any of 5+ strip effects kill its engine/wincon is bad to me.  Shop's spheres slow oath equally, but they can't just sit on a wasteland to stop oath from winning.  Pithing needle and main grave hate are also both wiffs vs oath for the most part.
Fundamentally the difference is Oath of Hermit Druids goes from a resilient fast combo to a more fragile, but VERY fast combo.  Minus 6 goes from a fast combo (probably not as consistently fast as hermit), to a much slower control deck.  This may just be a matter of playstyle, but I prefer aggressive.  As a friend once said, "there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers."  G3 vs minus 6, I would certainly go to 4 nature's claims to do double duty on the hate.  Vs Oath/Hermit, there's really nothing that will splash onto both.

[evouga]

I think I've found a way to free one sideboard slot:

- Sutured Ghoul
- Lord of Extinction
+ Clone Shell

I haven't given up looking for creatures that work for both Oath and Druid, but 1 slot is better than 2...

[TheWhiteDragon]

I'm not sure how clone shell would work.  If you're thinking that you clone BSC, sac clone to therapy, then get BSC with dragon breath - that works, but all they need is a 2/2 or 2 orchard tokens to survive the turn and then you have 0 library.  Also, you'ld have to use a therapy AFTER casting dread return, which means you may still have a combo piece in hand, or the path might not be clear.

With sutured ghoul, you swing with a 50/50 hasted trampler.  With BSC in the library, even if they do something funky like angel's grace, you still get 1 extra attack.  Sometimes you can easily hardcast LoE too for a 10/10 than can beat in a couple turns (seizes and therapies are like giant growths on him too).  If they kill the LoE, they just put a combo piece in the grave for you.  If ther RFG LoE, then you have the hasty BSC plan as backup.

I don't think going all in with BSC, expecting there to be no blockers when you run orchards, is a solid plan.

[evouga]

Well, you can bring in your choice of BSC or Emrakul: if the way is clear, choose BSC (don't forget to take into account any sources of R you might have). If not, bring in Emrakul. Sure, you'll usually need another turn (which you'll have since BSC is still in you library) but it's highly unlikely your opponent can do anything to stop you after having been Annihilated 6 and repeatedly Therapied.

[TheWhiteDragon]

That doesn't work.  You have to board out Emrakul when going with hermit...when Emrakul goes to the grave from anywhere, you shuffle your entire graveyard into your library, negating hermit's effect.  

I think the best things that can be done to the deck are to free sb slots if a less-card-slot-costly hermit combo is out there.

I also toyed with cutting 1 fetch for 1 ponder.  It's just fine in oath...both "find" a land, but ponder trades off costing 1 mana for the ability to find things other than land when you don't need mana.  In hermit though, it brings you down to 21 mana when you cut the 2 islands.  Frantic search costs too much.  Careful study might be as good.  

I also swapped out yawg will for noxious revival.  So far I'm impressed.  Outside of black lotus, yawg will needs 5+ mana to be any better than revival.  Revival can recoup a countered oath and recast it next turn.  Also, if it is in hand, you can oath freely without fearing having no card to draw.  It even helps in that it can target the opponent at times.  In many cases, it's just better than yawg will when playing aggressively.  Black lotus is the only difference maker.

Any other suggestions?  What cards would you suggest to add/cut and what problems can you forsee?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Hey all - I've been trying to optimize the sb as of late.  I am at the moment just running 1 claim, 3 needles, and the 11 hermit cards.  Are there any better options for the 4 sb slots?  Remember strip mine and 2 beast withins are maindeck already.  2x Jace, tinker, and 4x oath are my only response to tinker>bsc.  Should I be gunning more to kill shops (already a good match), hedging against dredge (super fast), or what?  Any headway on trimming the 11 sb hermit slots to maybe 10?

[Ten-Ten]

I would say 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 sphinx of steel wind, 2 Pithing needles....

Ancient Grudge costs more than Natures claim but I believe it is far better than Beast Within against shops and to some degree vault/key.
Although, Beast Within already covers vault/key control match-up well enough it seems.

Sphinx of the steel wind in against dredge.. maybe even timetwister?

Needle hits so much, I really like it. Maybe keep in the third Needle and take out the second Bridge?

Also, have you tried a singleton Bridge from below? don't know if two are necessary.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The second bridge is definitely necessary with 2 narcomeba.  If you draw 1 bridge, you cant therapy before dread return.  If you draw 1 narco, you will never have 3 creatures.  With 2 bridges, if you draw 1 bridge, you can therapy yourself to drop the second bridge (1 token), therapy your opponent to hit the FoWs (3 tokens), then therapy anything else (5 tokens) and dread return.  If you draw a narco, you can simply double therapy the opponent or 1 for the counters and one on yourself to drop extra combo pieces, and have 4 tokens to therapy a third time and return with.  Even drawing a narco AND bridge, you can sac the one narco to therapy (1 token) to drop the 2nd bridge, then therapy the opponent sacrificing druid (3 tokens) and still dread return.  Cutting a narco or a bridge makes drawing a bridge cut you off therapies altogether, and drawing a narco means you cant hit 3 creatures unless you hardcast (and then a counterspell kills you).  Some mix of bridge/narco needs to amount to 4 in order to be safe from disruption.  Running a 2/2 split is the best configuration and maximize using all 3 therapies while still being able to go off with 2 pieces in hand.  I think the trimming will have to happen by shrinking the creature package (LoE, ghoul, breath) or the narco/bridge package altogether.  Is there anything with a flashback or narco effect that puts multiple creatures into play?  I considered bloodghasts with bridge, but then you need a land drop to cut 1 card slot, which is too risky.

The problem with grudge as opposed to claim (other than being able to hit leylines) is that it not only costs 1 more vs spheres, but it costs red to cast which can only be gotten off orchards/mox/lotus.  Green can be attained through bayou, 3 tropicals, or 4 fetches in addition to the 6 sources of red.  I agree that it is better vs shops as a whole, but when considering the extra 1 mana cost vs spheres and the -8 sources of red vs green, claim is for sure the better choice there.

Sphinx is interesting, though I don't know if racing the dredge deck is better than stopping its engine and then taking my time.  If I am resolving oath or tinker before they kill me, I'm probably not going to lose anyway.  A hasty BSC or emrakul seems to do a number on dredge.

[Ten-Ten]

The second bridge is definitely necessary with 2 narcomeba.  If you draw 1 bridge, you cant therapy before dread return.  If you draw 1 narco, you will never have 3 creatures.  With 2 bridges, if you draw 1 bridge, you can therapy yourself to drop the second bridge (1 token), therapy your opponent to hit the FoWs (3 tokens), then therapy anything else (5 tokens) and dread return.  If you draw a narco, you can simply double therapy the opponent or 1 for the counters and one on yourself to drop extra combo pieces, and have 4 tokens to therapy a third time and return with.  Even drawing a narco AND bridge, you can sac the one narco to therapy (1 token) to drop the 2nd bridge, then therapy the opponent sacrificing druid (3 tokens) and still dread return.  Cutting a narco or a bridge makes drawing a bridge cut you off therapies altogether, and drawing a narco means you cant hit 3 creatures unless you hardcast (and then a counterspell kills you).  Some mix of bridge/narco needs to amount to 4 in order to be safe from disruption.  Running a 2/2 split is the best configuration and maximize using all 3 therapies while still being able to go off with 2 pieces in hand.  I think the trimming will have to happen by shrinking the creature package (LoE, ghoul, breath) or the narco/bridge package altogether.  Is there anything with a flashback or narco effect that puts multiple creatures into play?  I considered bloodghasts with bridge, but then you need a land drop to cut 1 card slot, which is too risky.

The problem with grudge as opposed to claim (other than being able to hit leylines) is that it not only costs 1 more vs spheres, but it costs red to cast which can only be gotten off orchards/mox/lotus.  Green can be attained through bayou, 3 tropicals, or 4 fetches in addition to the 6 sources of red.  I agree that it is better vs shops as a whole, but when considering the extra 1 mana cost vs spheres and the -8 sources of red vs green, claim is for sure the better choice there.

Sphinx is interesting, though I don't know if racing the dredge deck is better than stopping its engine and then taking my time.  If I am resolving oath or tinker before they kill me, I'm probably not going to lose anyway.  A hasty BSC or emrakul seems to do a number on dredge.

oh, ok. I see what you mean, all good points.

as far as putting multiple creatures with Flashback, you have Acorn Harvest (Torment).
Acorn Harvest would be the closest thing for your deck but seems worse than Narco/Bridge.

Other cards I was looking at that either disrupt or create tokens when sent to GY or return themselves from GY were:
Rotting rats
ashen ghoul
fatestitcher
nim devourer
grixis slave driver
nether traitor

most may be worse than Narco since they will cost you mana to bring back where Narco would be free but just a few thoughts, is all.

[TheWhiteDragon]

That's the kind of thinking I'm looking for.  I don't think any of those cards will work better than narco/bridge, but the thinking is on the right track.  I also made a change to the deck that is a definite change.  I swapped the 3rd beast within (sometimes marginal-dead) for a sensei top (always awesome).  We all know what sensei does for combo decks that want to avoid dead draws.  I made it a hard change in the list and modified all my posts to reflect it.  Also, i added suggested changes in parentheses (ponder-fetch, noxious revival-yawg will).  So far I am liking the change in oath, but losing the land hurts in hermit since you already cut 2 islands...and then are running off 21 mana after transformation.  I'm not sure if 21 mana and a ponder is so bad in hermit...23 mana seems to be perfect in oath.

Is there perhaps a new transformational sb altogether that will compliment hasty oath, maintain minimal to zero hate-splash damage, and use fewer sb slots while still being as fast as hermit?

[Eastman]

Also, running 2 narco, 2 bridge maximizes your odds of having 3 creatures to dread return, while utilizing all therapies and clearing the path/your hand of pieces, regardless of what pieces are in hand.  Decks that run 3 narco tend to pitch 1 to FoW, and can often get stuck unable to go off.also, if a narco is killed in response to the first therapy, you are screwed...this way if one gets killed, you get tokens to replace it.  

If they can kill a narco during your main phase (when you are going off), why didn't they kill the hermit with said kill spell?  REB aside, most everything that will take out a 'moeba will take out a druid.  I am a proponent of 4 Narcomoeba.  I love having extra Narcos around to pitch to FoW and Misdirection.  I am also wary of losing to tricks when my opponent has creatures, particularly when running Orchards.  For instance if they kill their own orchard token in response to your therapy (well more accurately in response to the Bridge trigger going on the stack), you are left with only two creatures and 0 bridges, so you are screwed.  

[TheWhiteDragon]

You are right on them being able to kill the narco and hermit equally.  I think the main reason I prefer the bridges is that if you draw them, you can therapy yourself for 0 mana and still get off all 3 therapies before DR.  If you draw narcos, you are usually having to hardcast them or just DR without access to therapies (typically you will need at least 1 therapy to knock a combo piece out of hand).  Really it is 6 of one or half a dozen of the other.  It's 4 slots either way and any configuration has its pros and cons.  With plow or exile hitting the narco, you aren't getting tokens anyway, so it isn't a for sure thing.  Sometimes the opponent will let you activate thinking they can stop you and sandbag a win by foiling your combo and making you deck yourself.  That's the only time they'd opt to kill narco over hermit.  The problem still remains that Hermit is taking 11 sb slots in a maindeck that already uses 4 combo slots (breath/3 therapy) and the engine/combo ditcher (thirst, study, 2 jace, brainstorm). 

We either need to A) find a new combo that suffers 0 splash damage and is as fast as hermit, or B) trim Hermit sb to 10 or less cards...or C) assume the combo is as good as it will get and focus on strengthening the main oath/remaining 4 sb slots.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Hey all,

I've been having a bit of trouble vs a particular deck with this build (and all my builds for that matter) - fatestitcher dredge. FD is regularly killing me on turn 2.  Even when I can strip the bazaar or lay a pithing needle, it just claims the needle or drops a second bazaar and goes apeshit.  The version I test against runs 4 LoS instead of LotV too, so it shuts off oath as well.  It boards into LotV, so it can shut off hermit too.  I tested the other day and it opened with Los/Bazaar after serum powdering.  I played strip/mox/needle.  He played undiscovered/claim.  I stripped his bazaar, played orchard/oath.  He therapied off the token and played a bazaar.  I did something and passed the turn to give him eot token.  He played undiscovered and used fatestitcher to dredge his whole deck.  GG.

I played against the same version with noble fish.  He played bazaar and bazaared away 3 dredgers.  I wasted his bazaar and played mox/noble.  He dredged and got a narco and 2 ghasts off an undiscovered.  I cast tinker for sphinx of steel wind.  He dredges an imp, then dread returns sun titan for bazaar...proceeds to dredge 40 cards and wins.

This has been an issue with My oath/hermit deck, but also any deck.  I am convinced that strip/beast within/needles are not enough.  Therapies clear the road of counters and they can just keep getting a fresh bazaar and multiple uses after waste/strip.  My noble fish deck even had 4 waste, 1 strip...no good.  One game i had double waste, and he drew all 4 bazaars - which is just luck, but still.  Sphinx is too slow to make a difference vs hasty 90 damage...needle just gets claimed or they can activate once in response and ride the 2-3 dredgers they pitch on the draw step into a win.  Same goes for waste/strip.  I do think LoS is stronger in dredge than LotV since it shuts oath, belcher, and tendrils, the 3 decks that can be faster than dredge. 

I've come to the realization that it's not enough to shut down the bazzar....you need to stop the grave.  In this deck, jailer won't work (stops dragon breath and hermit combo - and oathing up a 2/1 sucks).  Planar void won't work as it attacks my deck as well and cuts off hermit combo.  Crypt/Nihil/Rav trap won't work due to LoS (and they are all a 1 shot pause button).  LotV seems like the only option, but then I am running the hermit combo with 4 LotV and 0 other sb cards (though 2 beast within main).  Would it be better to run hermit vs dredge and 4 claims sb to hit their own LotV, or should I run my own LotV and hope they can't claim it?  Vs oath main, they will bring in 4 claims for sure to hit LotV/needle/planar or the oath itself.  Do I try to race it, or stop it?  Claims at least help vs shops and time vault and oath, whereas LotV is only good vs dredge.  I just find it impossible to race vs a deck that consistently blows me out on turn 2/3 even through a strip/needle.  Ridiculous.   What can I do with the sb?  For reference, it is currently:


// Sideboard
SB: 1  Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [JGC] Hermit Druid
SB: 2  Narcomoeba
SB: 1  Sutured Ghoul
SB: 1 [ARB] Lord of Extinction
SB: 1  Dread Return
SB: 2  Bridge from Below
SB: 3  Pithing Needle

cutting hermit slots to 10 or 9 would greatly help too.

[hitman]

Leyline of the Void has long been considered the best way to interact with Dredge.  Many players have also found that it is necessary to have upwards of seven cards to adequately deal with Dredge.  If Dredge is that much of a problem, you may want to incorporate more mainboard answers, find a different plan post-board or play a different deck.  Dredge is a beast and it takes a lot of cards to deal with it if you're not on the same level of brokenness. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yeah...I just found racing isn't an answer either.  Turn 1, I'm on the play...land, careful study into an awesome hand with 2nd mana, hermit, fow.  Opponent plays bazaar, no hate, pass.  I play land, hermit with fow backup, pass.  Eot, he bazaars pitching ghast, imp, fatestitcher.  Untap, he dredges 5 and flips a troll, dredges 6 and flips a therapy and a 2nd ghast, draw - dredge 6, plays undiscovered recurring 2 ghast, unearths fatestitcher, dredges 12 more, getting 2 narcomebas, therapies away my fow, dread returns sun titan for bazaar, dredges 12 more, with fresh ghasts, dread returns flamekin for about 50 damage.

How in the F**K can I beat that?  This was even g2 where he brought in 4 claims and showed me he had 1 in hand.

[nataz]

Tormods ccrypt would have bought you at least 1 turn. Too bad you can't use jailer, that would have worked as well. What about that artifact that cost 1, can remove 1 card a turn from the gy, or you can sac it to remove the whole yard.

[TheWhiteDragon]

You're speaking of relic of progenitus.  The problem with relic is it is similar to planar void in hitting my own grave.  The targeting also doesn't allow you to hit 1 card a turn using the tap ability when they have LoS.  Even with the tap ability, they just remove their serum powder or whatever and then keep the dredgers.

Latest game, I start - they play LotV - I play tropical, natures claim the leyline.  They play bazaar, pass.  I play bayou, hermit...daze in hand.  Eot they draw 2, pitch a troll, bridge, and ghast.  They dredge into an imp, dredge 11 off the bazaar on upkeep and flip a narco.  Draw - dredge 6.  Then drop a second bazaar, returning ghast, dredge 12, flipping a 2nd narco.  Therapy me once calling FoW (whiff), therapy twice naming daze (2 zombie tokens and a bloodghast), dread return sun titan -> paradise -> fatestitcher -> bridges, ghasts, returns, therapy -> sac titan to therapy, dread return titan -> paradise, 3 new ghasts, fatestitcher, dredge the rest of the deck ->FKZ for 80 damage while I sit tapped out with a summoning sick hermit on my turn 2 and no hand after triple therapy...gg

And he had natures claim in hand, in case you were wondering.

g2 - I mull for leyline, but cant find it.  I end up with sea, vamp, tinker, dragon breath.  I start and play sea, vamp for crypt, pass.  After 2 serum powders, they have removed a sun titan 2 bridges, and a bloodghast, and a dread return.  They play bazaar, pass.  I play crypt, tinker, bsc, pass.  Eot they bazaar pitching two stinkweeds and a bridge...they dredge 10, flipping a troll, dredge 6 on their draw, drop a 2nd bazaar and dredge 12 (flipping a 2nd bridge and 2 narco), they therapy naming daze (see i only have dragon breath in hand), sac both tokens and the 2nd narco (2 narcos are in his hand i find out) to dread return sun titan and net 2 tokens.  He proceeds to go fatestitcher - therapy - return titan again - gets 3 bloodghasts - dredges 59 of 60 cards - fatestitchers a final time to tap my BSC just for shits and giggles, then returns FKZ and swings for 60.  Of note, he had claim in hand, but no colored mana to start.

So that's 2 in a row where I had a great play on turn 2 and I died before I got the turn 3 with me STARTING both games.  Basically he activates bazaar twice (via stitcher or 2nd bazaar) and mills 60 cards every game.  I'm now 0-18 no matter how absurd a hand I have or how many counters or if I drop turn 0 leyline or turn 1 strip/needle.  I just can't beat this deck.  Any tips?

I'm thinking LotV is my only option, but then mulling into leyline usually means i have a questionable hand alongside it.  I can speed bump them a turn and make them not kill me until turn 3....otherwise, i'm dying on turn 2, even when I'm on the play.  That's just absurd.  For those who want to know, I'm like 0-18 vs fatestitcher dredge with oath, hermit, and fish - even when I am dropping strips, needles, or LotV.  I'm at a loss for strategy or words.

[hitman]

If you're looking for a Crypt effect, Nihil Spellbomb is the best. 

And he had natures claim in hand, in case you were wondering.

The fact that he had Nature's Claim in his hand means close to nothing without the mana to cast it.  In your description, he had to Sun Titan to get back an Undiscovered Paradise.  He couldn't have even done that with a Leyline in play.  You could also try Mental Misstep to stop pretty much every sideboard card they bring in against you. 

The fact of the matter is, anything that's not a Gush/Confidant/Ritual blue deck or Workshops has a bad matchup against Dredge.  The reason you're losing is you're playing Oath, Hermit and Fish.  Dredge has a consistent turn two against you, nullifying the cards you're using to interact with them.  If they goldfish you on two, you have to interact with them on one, regardless of who goes first.  Leyline of the Void and probably three other cards are going to be necessary for you to really play with Dredge.  That's the cost of using a transformational sideboard.  If you plan on running into a lot of a bad matchup, don't use a deck with a transformational sideboard that doesn't allow you to adequately shore up troublesome matches.  There's only really four good ways of interacting with Dredge: Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Yixlid Jailer and Wheel of Sun and Moon.  The rest of the chaff are just speedbumps to Dredge.  Speedbumps are fine as long as you can capitalize on the tempo gained by the speedbump.  The slower/less powerful your deck is, the more powerful and plentiful your answer(s) to Dredge need to be. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

This is sort of true.

The fact of the matter is, anything that's not a Gush/Confidant/Ritual blue deck or Workshops has a bad matchup against Dredge.  The reason you're losing is you're playing Oath, Hermit and Fish.  Dredge has a consistent turn two against you, nullifying the cards you're using to interact with them.  If they goldfish you on two, you have to interact with them on one, regardless of who goes first. 

This is probably true, but I am not getting how shops or gush/confidant/ritual is fairing any better.  I'd imagine spheres help stop the dread returns, but if the deck gets dredged by turn 2, then you are looking at an army of ghasts, zombies, and ichorids (and narcos) by turn 3 without mana needed.  I don't get how shops beat that.  The blue/ritual decks...I don't get how it is better than either hermit or oath (with hasty bsc/emrakul).  Both my deck versions have the potential to kill on turn 2.  Both decks run 4 seize/therapy, 1 mental mistep, 4 daze, 4 fow.  That's more than most ritual/gush decks run.  I also have main strip mine and 2 beast within that can kill bazaar....ritual decks don't have that.  Leyline of sanctity nullifies tendrils just as bad as my oath.  The problem is, even setting up a turn 2 or 3 kill with counter backup, i die on their turn 2...regardless of my hand or hate I've dropped.  Even hitting their bazaar with needle/strip basically buys me until turn 4 at best.  Chain of Vapor answers leyline, needle, jailer, and whatever else super efficiently.  They just remove the hate and dredge 60.  I don't know how to beat it.  Even on the games I opened with leyline, they'd drop paradise/claim, I'd get a turn 2, they'd drop bazaar, and if I didn't kill on turn 3, they'd dredge their deck on the next turn.  When they plop LoS, it makes it even more impossible.  That just lets them stop me, clear away my hate (and even blocks all crypt/trap effects), and then dredge the deck with a bazaar and an undiscovered paradise.

Its not just that I'm losing to stitcher dredge...it's that I'm losing to stitcher dredge regardless of the hate I'm using (LotV or needle) and even if I can set up my own turn 2 kill with up to 2 counters.  Stitcher dredge just seems to be able to dredge 50 cards in 2 turns, and withe 6+ rainbow lands and 8x 1cc hate removal, it's just unstoppable.  LotV or needle basically makes them play rainbow land + claim on turn 1 instead of bazaar.  It effectively buys me 1 turn at the cost of 1 card (or more if i mulligan) or trading my own turn by tapping my mana to cast the needle.  Is nobody having this kind of trouble but me?  I don't understand how dredge isn't just owning.  I even tested a few against FD with a ritual doomsday deck.  I got slaughtered.  LoS stops the tendrils and a turn 1 bsc wasn't even enough when he started with bazaar, pass - turn 2, dredge everything, swing for 70.

I know this is getting a bit off topic and more on dredge here, but to tie it back...how is it possible to beat dredge with a transformational sb option?  Even sb 4 LotV + main strip + 2 beast within is not even getting me close.

To tie it back to the "blue/ritual is faster", I can usually beat those decks faster and easier with this deck.  Hermit with counter backup is stupid fast, and oath with a hasty critter is a turn 2 gg most times too.  By trying to combo me out, they have to fight through my 9 free counters and 4 duress effects.  Dredge just laughs at counters.  It is essentially an uncounterable turn 2 tendrils for 80.

[hitman]

Workshops play cards that don't allow Dredge to attack or cast spells to get through that lock.  The other blue decks don't have to pass the turn.  Obviously, either deck can lose to Dredge but their hate is more effective because a speedbump can be all those decks need to lock up the game.  If you have to pass the turn, which is usually the case with Hermit, Oath and Fish, you need more factors to fall into line for your hate to be effective enough to win the game.  The way blue decks interact and the way Dredge decks interact are different, as I'm sure you know.  Just because you have what seems like a fast win against blue decks, doesn't mean it's fast enough against Dredge decks.  The other blue decks can goldfish much faster than Oath/Hermit/Fish.  Because of the interactions blue decks have to win in blue mirrors, the games take much longer.  Against Dredge, the blue decks can just goldfish and win on the spot.  Oath, Hermit and Fish need to pass the turn far more often than a normal blue deck needs to win the game.  That's why their ways of interacting tend to be more effective.  They can just Crypt you and then goldfish on their turn and win.  You need to Crypt, play the winning combination, pass the turn and not die on your opponent's turn.  Vintage decks are really powerful, especially ones that can work around the normal ways of interaction in the format. 

Because the nature of your deck requires you to win slower than a normal blue deck's goldfish, you'll need more powerful ways to interact and they have to fit inside the fundamental turn in the matchup you're playing.  Wheel of Sun and Moon is never played because it's too hard to get white/white or green/green before it doesn't matter anymore.  Because you play Oath, you've kind of invalidated the Yixlid Jailer plan.  I'm not sure I wouldn't still play Yixlid Jailer if the matchup is as bad as you're saying.  There are worse things than Oathing up a lock to your opponent's gameplan.  As you know though, Jailer shuts off some of things you're trying to do.  Same with Planar Void.  That just kind of leaves you with Leyline of the Void and various speedbumps.  Since you're not going to be fast enough to lock up the game in a turn, the speedbumps lose effectiveness.  I think that's where you're having most of your problems.  If you want to shore up that matchup, I think you have to give up the transformational sideboard and play more effective cards in your sideboard for that matchup.  It may not even be worth it to devote that many slots to the match.  I guess it depends on what you expect to show up.  If there was a deck that could go head to head with any matchup, we'd all probably be playing the deck.  This deck is just soft to Dredge.  In any case, I would definitely start at 4 Leyline of the Void.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I've decided on 4 leyline of the void...plus the 2 beast withins and strip mine.  I'm still averaging about 1 in 5 games after sb, and 0% pre sb.

I want to know what blue decks are winning turn 1 without passing the turn consistently.  Oath or hermit on turn 1 is highly consistent.  it's 2 mana and 1 card, and vs dredge, they almost always have a creature (if I don't just give them one with orchard).  Blue decks usually play some sort of control and then win off yawg will into tendrils.  Even still, leyline of sanctity is going to block that too.  I am not sure how a blue deck that is not running hermit or oath is going to be faster.  I suppose they can assemble vault/key on turn 1 or storm 10 (if the dredge deck doesn't have any leyline) on turn 1...but when even turn 1 tinker->bsc, pass is too slow to win, then I'm just floored with the idea that my deck just isn't fast enough.  Win did turn 2 become so slow?  What decks are consistently "goldfishing" at turn 1?  And even through leylines/chalices at that?

[Archae]

I have played Fatestitcher dredge a fair bit, and it's is very potent; it gets there turn 2 an overwhelming percent of the time.  In general, I find that the single best piece of hate against dredge is LotV.  Your goal in fighting dredge should be to land that card and protect it.  As a transformational deck, that should be your mentality.  And remember that any conditional counter (Daze, Spell Pierce, etc.) is nearly always a hard counter against dredge.

There are additional hate cards you could play as well, but in playing against every dredge deck I have seen, LotV+Needle/Waste effects and countermagic should be sufficient.  My biggest piece of advice is to actually play a fair number of games with Fatestitcher dredge, pre- and post-board.  That is the best way to learn the decks ins-and-outs and see firsthand what dredge doesn't want to see across the table, then adapt that strategy for your deck.  It also teaches you when to crack one-shots against dredge like Crypt/Needle/Spellbomb and how the dredge player will play around it.  Last, it will help with your rose-colored glasses view (or in this case, whatever the opposite of rose-colored is) vis-a-vis dredge - you seem to think it will always have all of the answers and it can't be beaten, which is very far from the truth.