My oath of hermit druids

[nataz]

beast within isn't dredge hate, its something you get lucky with. seriously, it costs 3 mana. I have no idea why you are including it in your list as dredge hate. Strip effects aren't as useful against fateS+titan builds. Really, you have 4 leyline of the void, which isn't enough to shore up a particularly bad match for you. You need more dredge hate, or you can concede the match-up, not sure what else to tell you.

I read your game logs and all I see is you essentially giving dredge a free pass for like 2 turns by trying to race. You aren't faster, especially when you factor in therp which you have trouble countering, so why try and race? In one game you tutored for crypt so you could cast tinker- if you had tutored for a good castable gy hate card like crypt you could have bought yourself significant time. Heck, if you would have vamped for twister you could have done some serious dmg as well.

I'd say before you give up on the match try and change your play style. Add in a crypt (or some other cheap dredge gy hate that you can cast) to tutor for. Use your counters to protect the hate cards. Play the control role, survive for the first couple of turns, and then when you have a window win quickly.

I was never a huge fan, but you can always try extripate as well.

WS gets there against dredge b/c its a lot harder for dredge to use their reactive spells and return under any sphere effect. Most of those lines of play you described involved multiple "free" spells which often isn't possible against a deck packing 8-12 sphere effects.

other blue decks get to play jailer, which is huge. that means a dredge player has to board both claim AND chain/contagion/firestorm and hit the right one at the right time, with the right mana. All your hate gets hit by the same card.

hope something works out for you, I'd love to see hermit druid in vintage.

[hitman]

I want to know what blue decks are winning turn 1 without passing the turn consistently.  Oath or hermit on turn 1 is highly consistent.  it's 2 mana and 1 card, and vs dredge, they almost always have a creature (if I don't just give them one with orchard).  Blue decks usually play some sort of control and then win off yawg will into tendrils.  Even still, leyline of sanctity is going to block that too.  I am not sure how a blue deck that is not running hermit or oath is going to be faster.  I suppose they can assemble vault/key on turn 1 or storm 10 (if the dredge deck doesn't have any leyline) on turn 1...but when even turn 1 tinker->bsc, pass is too slow to win, then I'm just floored with the idea that my deck just isn't fast enough.  Win did turn 2 become so slow?  What decks are consistently "goldfishing" at turn 1?  And even through leylines/chalices at that?

No, I'm not saying blue decks are winning on turn one.  I'm saying the window that their disruption gives them to win in is much more likely to win them the game because they don't have to pass the turn.  Playing against Dredge involves two parts, 1) interacting with them on their level and 2) doing whatever it is the deck you're playing is trying to do.  If you skip 1 and move to 2, there aren't really any decks in Vintage that can race Dredge.  All I'm saying is that you can't race them because playing Hermit or Oath and passing the turn isn't fast enough to kill Dredge.  You're handicapping yourself by using a transformational sideboard in this matchup and you're not able to play all the cards necessary to interact with Dredge on a meaningful level. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

Good comments by all.  I agree that I can't race fatestitcher dredge.  Oath isn't fast enough.  It seems even a turn 1 tinker/bsc or hermit isn't fast enough.  LotV is surely the best hate card.  It seems to me that CoV is an easy answer for dredge though.  Jailer, Leyline, or needle all get cleared for U.  No matter what anti-hate they run, it all costs 1 mana and they have rainbow lands.

Beast within isn't true dredge hate.  It just hits bazaar when I have 3 mana, which is usually by turn 1 or 2.  It's like extra strip mines.  But, I have found with my fish decks that even double wasteland doesn't slow dredge but a turn or 2.  

I understand that several blue decks don't need to pass the turn, i.e. they win in one swoop, but that usually requires a chain of the right spells, and they still have to get through Leyline of Sanctity and Chalice to do it.  I don't think that oath or hermit needing to pass the turn is making it slower than other blue decks, because most other blue decks aren't winning until turn 3+, where hermit typically wins on turn 2 when sticking a hermit.  13 counter/duress makes my deck on par with "blue's" counters, but counters don't matter in this matchup anyway.  I usually get hit by 3 therapies prior to the dread return anyway.  With 4 CoV + 4 nature's claim, it seems dredge can remove whatever hate I drop anyway.  That's 8 1cc spells and up to 8 rainbow lands post board.  Odds are good they will have 1 land and 1 anti-hate.  The fact I usually have to mull to 4 or whatever to get a leyline means I will usually not have a counter.  Leyline of Sanctity cuts off all crypt effects anyway, so they are of no use.  Even using a nihil or crypt basically sets them back one turn.

I could drop the transformational sb, but then I lose my speed and hate dodging vs creatureless blue decks.  Fatestitcher Dredge seems to be the only really rough matchup.  I CAN race regular dredge that typically needs 3 turns to kill.  FS dredge, esp with 4 LoS, just makes it really tough.  

Perhaps I am looking with onyx-colored glasses, but out of the 40 something games I played, 80%+ were over by turn 2, they were able to kill my leyline, needle, or get past strip mine every game I played them within a turn, slowing them only a turn or 2 tops.  I was like 3 for 40, even landing a would-be turn 2 kill many games.  The hate I did play was almost ineffectual, and the LoS/Chalice blocked spellbombs, crypts, oath, traps, etc all day.  FSD just ran over me like I was a bitch.  i even tried a few games of doomsday/storm vs them, running leylines and jailers, and they just claimed/vapored the hate, blocked my tendrils with chalice/LoS, and smacked me around every game.  I didn't even win 1 game playing storm.

[baalzamon35]

I run a Hermit Druid with 4X Crop Rotation and 3X Noxious Revival.  I can Crop Rotation for a Hall of the Bandit Lord which lets me keep my Druid in hand till I'm ready to combo OR I can Crop for Bojuka Bog to remove their yard after their first use of Bazaar of Baghdad.  Crop Rotation also lets me silver bullet Strip Mine, Maze of Ith (great in the mirror match), Karakas (this card is just dirty), Pendlehaven, Tabernacle, or any number of effective cards.  Similarly, I can Noxious Revival to recover a countered Druid ect, OR I can Noxious Revival the Flame Kin Zealot in response to Dread Return.  This gives me 7 instant speed 1 mana or less mainboard graveyard hate cards that also protect my deck.  Dredge can recover from those no doubt, but typically not by turn 2 and often not by turn 3.

Thanks again for the thread and I hope this helps

[TheWhiteDragon]

Can you post a list for comparison?  Do you run oath and hermit?  I can see crop rot helping orchards too.  What combo package do you run?

[LSD25]

sounds like you need to diversify your hate a bit, but you have a transformational sb, so you dont have many slots.  I would think boarding into druid over oath is better against dredge, then you are racing them and making their claims dead against your win condition.  Typically you need to have a leyline/crypt/spellbomb and a jailer to get control, because they typically will have a chain and a claim, but if they dont win then you get to play your jailer again next turn.  Unfortunatly, they will hold the chain until they can go for the win.  if you made room for LotV main then you might have a chance.

[baalzamon35]

Can you post a list for comparison?  Do you run oath and hermit?  I can see crop rot helping orchards too.  What combo package do you run?

I have run Oath in the board, but recently moved away from it in lieu of a secondary mainboard combo for Hermit.  I run the Sutured Ghoul combo currently, but have run the Sharuum combo in the past. 

Combo
1X Dragon Breath
1X Sutured Ghoul
1X Lord of Extinction
1x Dread Return
4X Hermit Druid
4X Worldly Tutor
1X Vampiric Tutor

Control
4X Crop Rotation
3X Duress
3X Cabal Therapy
3X Noxious Revival
4X Mental Misstep

Tech
4X Gitaxian Probe
1X Phantasmagorian
1X Vampire Hexmage
1X Dark Depths
1X Krosan Rec

Land
1X Strip Mine
2X Hall of the Bandit Lord
2X Bojuka Bog
1X Maze of Ith
1X Pendlehaven
4X Forbidden Orchard
2X City of Brass
4X Gemstone Mine
1X Dryad Arbor

Acceleration
4X Elvish Spirit Guide
3X Chrome Mox
1X Lotus Petal

Sideboard
3X Powder Keg
3X Chalice of the Void/Ravenous Trap/Surgica Extraction (I'm undecided)
3X Pithing Needle
3X Chain of Vapor
3X Nature's Claim

The basic idea is to hold a tutor or Crop Rotation turn 1 to play EOT and fix your hand/board, I especially love Crop Rotating for Hall so's I can hold onto the Druid cause turn 2 with an accel you can go off and never show them what's happening.  Instant speed Tutors also protect you against discard.  I chose Mental Misstep for my counter because so many of the best disruptions for this deck cost 1 mana and because it'll stop Mental Misstep from stopping your own 1 mana spells.  Against a slower deck, I'll tutor for Hexmage and Dark Depths game 1 and then Druid game 2

[baalzamon35]

Wow, I grabbed the wrong decklist for my last post and I can't figure out how to delete it for a redo.  Here's the real decklist.

Combo
1X Dragon Breath
1X Sutured Ghoul
1X Lord of Extinction
1x Dread Return
1X Bridge from Below
3X Narcomoeba
4X Hermit Druid
4X Worldly Tutor
1X Vampiric Tutor

Control
4X Crop Rotation
3X Cabal Therapy
3X Noxious Revival
4X Mental Misstep

Tech
4X Gitaxian Probe
1X Phantasmagorian
1X Vampire Hexmage
1X Dark Depths

Land
1X Strip Mine
1X Hall of the Bandit Lord
2X Bojuka Bog
1X Maze of Ith
4X Forbidden Orchard
2X City of Brass
4X Gemstone Mine

Acceleration
4X Elvish Spirit Guide
2X Chrome Mox
1X Lotus Petal

Sideboard
3X Powder Keg
3X Chalice of the Void/Ravenous Trap/Surgica Extraction (I'm undecided)
3X Pithing Needle
3X Chain of Vapor
3X Nature's Claim

[TheWhiteDragon]

so basically, a hermit list with no transformation....and why not demonic, tinker, BSC?  Much faster and simpler than dark depths, even with crop rot.

[baalzamon35]

4 Worldly Tutors and Vamp for the Druid serve me as there's little else that I search for.  Demonic has been in and out and back in and out again.  I only run 3 artifacts making Tinker difficult to rely on, but is faster and simpler than Depths.  Honestly, I've thought about running more arts for Tinker/BCS and a 4X Leyline of the Void with 1X Helm of Obedience for the mill combo.  But to put in these alternate combos I'd have to sacrifice control and whatnot and spend a bunch more money.

[baalzamon35]

I am truly a fool.  I can easily fit Tinker into my deck as I can crop rotation for Tree of Tales thus ramping up my art content.  Here is an updated list.

This isn't Oath boarding into Hermit like you want feedback on, but it is a very fast and consistent Hermit main build.  I hope this gives you some ideas

Main Combo
4X Hermit Druid
1X Sutured Ghoul
1X Lord of Extinction
1X Dragon Breath
1X Dread Return
3X Narcomoeba
1X Bridge from Below
3X Worldly Tutor
1X Vampiric Tutor
1X Demonic Tutor

Control
4X Gitaxian Probe
4X Cabal Therapy
4X Mental Misstep
3X Crop Rotation
1X Maze of Ith
2X Bojuka Bog

Alt Kill Condition
1X Blightsteel Colossus
1X Tinker
1X Vampire Hexmage
1X Dark Depths

Mana/Accel
4X Forbidden Orchard
3X Gemstone Mine
2X Tree of Tales
1X Dryad Arbor
1X Strip Mine
1X Karakas
1X Hall of the Bandit Lord
3X Chrome Mox
1X Lotus Petal
3X Elvish Spirit Guide

Crop Rotation stays my swiss army knife.  It instant speeds Land D, Yard hate, creature control, an extra dude with the Arbor, combo pieces with Dark Depths and an artifact provider for Tinker, and protection for my Druid with Hall.  I like my turn 1 to be a Probe and a Therapy if I'm holding a kill con, or a Tutor and a Misstep if I'm not.  I often manage to put out enough disruption to play my slightly slower alt kill cons which saves the Druid for game 2.  Karakas is my favorite new piece here, not often useful, but completely effective when it is.

[arj]

ESG in oath?

[TheWhiteDragon]

He's not running oath - just hermit.  Not what my list is like at all.  Different plan altogether