Gush Control (Constructive Criticism Requested)

[cvarosky80]

Well, after finally figuring out how to join this site (Had a lot of problems getting the activation email), I wanted to throw out a list I've been working on out here to see what anyone thinks. I had been out of the game for over 5 years, but got coerced back into it by my friends and put together a Gush Control list. I played it at BBGD 16 (Had to miss 17 due to a lot of last-minute chaos and confusion) and did well considering I've been out of the game for so long. Since then I've been tweaking it and have been leaning in this direction :

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Artifact Creatures
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Enchantments
1 Fastbond

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
1 Hurkyl's Recall (or 1 Mindbreak Trap)
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancient Grudge (or 1 Hurkyl's Recall)
2 Nature's Claim
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Pyroclasm

It's pretty straightforward as to it's aims, but I don't get to playtest a lot as I live in an area where Vintage is pretty much non-existent and most of all my friends that do play are Standard-only players, so I turn to those who ACTUALLY play the format enough to provide good advice. Any thoughts on the build and how to improve it are welcome.

[honestabe]

You definitely want Hurkyl's AND Mindbreak Trap.  They do different things, so I don't think you can justify running one over another.  I also think Gifts is probably better than TfK or Jace #3.  I've found Gifts to be really, really, really good in Gush Decks, as the piles you can make are just too broken.

[Ten-Ten]

I've found Gifts to be really, really, really good in Gush Decks, as the piles you can make are just too broken.

I used to think the same but after some testing Jace,TMS is just better in a deck like this. I would cut the Hurk's Recall for 4th Jace,TMS. You already have a catch-all in Echoing Truth and 2 Ancient grudge as a more effective way to deal with artifacts than Hurk's.

as far as the SB, the only cards that stick out are the 2x Pyroclasm and 1x ETW.
 
What do you bring these in for that you cant already handle maindeck?

[cvarosky80]

You definitely want Hurkyl's AND Mindbreak Trap.  They do different things, so I don't think you can justify running one over another.  I also think Gifts is probably better than TfK or Jace #3.  I've found Gifts to be really, really, really good in Gush Decks, as the piles you can make are just too broken.

I like Gifts ALOT as well, don't get me wrong. It IS definitely a game-winning play. The problem I keep running into with it is that it's a very vulnerable play, because you usually only have one shot with it. Learning to use Gifts has been very interesting (This card didn't exist the last time I was in MTG, so I've had some serious catching up to do, fortunately Menendian's Gush book came out right around the time I got back into the game and has been a great resource to me in understanding not only the Gush arch-type, but also what I've been missing while I was away from the game. Plus , DeMars' columns on SCG were very helpful too in learning all the craziness that has happened to Vintage over the past 5 years) and it is a card that still gnaws heavily at me when I look at this list. Cutting the Thirst would be the more likely option over the Jace. Thirst was put in as somewhat of an ancillary move to getting Blightsteel out of my hand whenever I draw him (And with how much this deck thins itself out and draws cards, it happens wayyy more often than I would prefer, but TfK may be more of a knee-jerk reaction by myself).

The Hurkyl's Recall/Mindbreak Trap matter is different though. I would like to run them both, because of course you're right, they do different things, and with so many different Blue decks making up a good chunk of the recent Top 8s that I've seen online, and the fact that having strong anti-Shop tactics is what is making that happen, having both cards maindeck means you have 2 VERY good weapons against both decks in Game 1. The problem becomes what to cut for the other. I have a lot of faith in the current "control" cards I already have in the maindeck as they each accomplish the things I want. Echoing Truth, for example, is the most versatile bounce spell in the game. It handles multiple Spheres, Golems, Revokers, ect. which Hurkyl's Recall of course does as well (Even better than E-Truth, obviously), but it also handles Empty the Warrens tokens, Zombie tokens that Dredge pumps out, Oath finishers not named Emrakul, Tinkerbots not named Inkwell Leviathan, and Marit Lage tokens. Thoughtseize is more of the same, there are other cards that can do the same things that Thoughtseize does fundamentally (Removing a threat), but not as "compact" as Thoughtseize is in the maindeck. Ancient Grudge.....as long as Time Vault remains in the form it's erratta-ed wording is in, and Mishra's Workshop and Null Rod remain un-restricted, 2 maindeck Grudges seems just as much of an "auto-include" as a set of Force of Wills in a Blue control deck. That leaves the cut to come from elsewhere in the deck, which is where I just don't know what to cut to run both. The mana base is solid in pretty much every match-up, the draw/search engine (with or without Gifts) is right where I want it (3 Jaces may look excessive in a Gush deck, but having 3 gives me a great chance at resolving one quickly, and being able to abuse it to it's fullest extent in the testing I have been able to get with this list), and being able to transition from Blightsteel to EtW via the sideboard in the matchups where EtW can be fully exploited has been good so far for me as well in the limited testing that I've had (The reason I don't run both in the maindeck is simply because of Shop decks where EtW is nearly impossible to make worthwhile through all the Sphere effects unless you can go broken with it on the play). But I also know that I could be overthinking things here, and that's why I'm using this forum as a way for gaining new perspectives.

I guess the better way of stating things is: What would you cut?

Thanks again for the input!

[cvarosky80]

I've found Gifts to be really, really, really good in Gush Decks, as the piles you can make are just too broken.

I used to think the same but after some testing Jace,TMS is just better in a deck like this. I would cut the Hurk's Recall for 4th Jace,TMS. You already have a catch-all in Echoing Truth and 2 Ancient grudge as a more effective way to deal with artifacts than Hurk's.

as far as the SB, the only cards that stick out are the 2x Pyroclasm and 1x ETW.
 
What do you bring these in for that you cant already handle maindeck?

I explained the EtW sideboard choice in the post above (It seems you posted your reply as I was typing out my reply to the previous poster). EtW is better to have against things like TPS, which, from what I've seen at least, run plenty of Hurkyl's Recall-like artifact bounce spells, which are money against Blightsteel, but dead against EtW tokens. Pyroclasm is there to deal with decks like Plateaus, G/W Beats, and Fish where something like Gaddock Teeg can preclude me from using Gushes, Jaces, and FoW and annoyances like Aven Mindcensor-like cards slow me down from stripping out my deck via fetches and tutors, or, just flat-out getting swarmed by an early rush of small creatures. I just like to have options in fighting the variety that Vintage has now when compared to 5 years ago. It's also not a bad option to use against something rogue like Dark Times where, while yes E-Truth handles the Marit Lage token, Bobs and other Hexmages can quickly team up to drag my life total down. EtW is really good in that matchup as well over Blightsteel because of the multiple Edicts that deck seems to run post-board.

Thanks for the input!

[desolutionist]

-Ancient Grudge
-Hurkyl's Recall
-Thoughtseize
-Thoughtseize
-Echoing Truth
-Underground Sea
-Mystical Tutor
-Thirst for Knowledge
+Mental Misstep
+Mental Misstep
+Steel Sabotage
+Imperial Seal
+Preordain
+Perordain
+Duress
+Gifts Ungiven

I have a 23-5-5 record with the deck in tournament play and my experience tells me you'll win more games this way

[Cunningbeaver]

-Ancient Grudge
-Hurkyl's Recall
-Thoughtseize
-Thoughtseize
-Echoing Truth
-Underground Sea
-Mystical Tutor
-Thirst for Knowledge
+Mental Misstep
+Mental Misstep
+Steel Sabotage
+Imperial Seal
+Preordain
+Perordain
+Duress
+Gifts Ungiven

I have a 23-5-5 record with the deck in tournament play and my experience tells me you'll win more games this way

I'd cut pearl before mystical but then I've never really been a fan of pearl.

[desolutionist]

I didn't start with Mox Pearl, but I added it when I realized that the card is broken on its own.  I side it out ALL THE TIME.  Do you really like Mystical Tutor though?  I'm sort of afraid of having too many topdeck tutors.  Can you imagine having all three in your hand?

[XxtSundaybxX]

Desolutionist and myself have been playing a list with the changes he listed above, like he mentioned, to great success. We have made a few changes one being the 3rd misstep. If you haven't realized by now, there is really only one card this deck is weak to. Mystic remora. But we think we have that figured out.

I'm not a big fan of thirst for knowledge, as i often find myself without any artifacts. Gifts however is insane like it looks like it would be. Mental misstep is absurd much better than the spell pierces we started with.

Empty the warrens is probably pretty weak right now. Everyone is playing remora and mindbreak traps, so playing a card that gets back broken by either of those two cards just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Which is why we cut etw from the list, as good as it can be.

[Smmenen]

Your deck looks strong, but you should seriously consider Preordains.   Preordain performs so many useful and important functions in a deck like this.   Have you tested them?

[XxtSundaybxX]

As much as I don't want to, I have to agree with Smmenen here. I've played the deck with and without preordains and it's so much smoother with them. Another big benefit to preordain is Often you will open with only 1 land in your hand and otherwise the hand is very keepable, preordain let's you find that second land so you can gush. Right now I'm playing 2 preordain, 1 ponder.

[cvarosky80]

Your deck looks strong, but you should seriously consider Preordains.   Preordain performs so many useful and important functions in a deck like this.   Have you tested them?

As much as I don't want to, I have to agree with Smmenen here. I've played the deck with and without preordains and it's so much smoother with them. Another big benefit to preordain is Often you will open with only 1 land in your hand and otherwise the hand is very keepable, preordain let's you find that second land so you can gush. Right now I'm playing 2 preordain, 1 ponder.

I did run 4 Preordains initially, and I do agree that they serve a very useful purpose. The reason I cut them was to make more room for the 2 additional Jaces (Which have been outstanding in testing) and the extra Ancient Grudge (Another very good item for me so far). Cutting the TfK seems to be a popular opinion that has been presented by you all, and replacing it with a Preordain would serve to fill that slot. 2 Preordains seems enough with 1 Ponder, so what would any of you cut to fit the 2nd Preordain?

-Ancient Grudge
-Hurkyl's Recall
-Thoughtseize
-Thoughtseize
-Echoing Truth
-Underground Sea
-Mystical Tutor
-Thirst for Knowledge
+Mental Misstep
+Mental Misstep
+Steel Sabotage
+Imperial Seal
+Preordain
+Perordain
+Duress
+Gifts Ungiven

I have a 23-5-5 record with the deck in tournament play and my experience tells me you'll win more games this way

Mental Misstep is certainly a very good idea. I like the mainboard Seizes b/c of the versatility it gives vs. the field in Game 1 as it can snatch out creatures, but making room in the board for the Missteps should be no problem at all, and probably would be the smart move on my part seeing as Blue decks are running rampant again, especially ones with Remora, but I'll definitely test them mainboard in place of the Seizes.

I didn't start with Mox Pearl, but I added it when I realized that the card is broken on its own.  I side it out ALL THE TIME.  Do you really like Mystical Tutor though?  I'm sort of afraid of having too many topdeck tutors.  Can you imagine having all three in your hand?

I really like having Mystical Tutor in my hand, as it enables me to fetch out Grudge ,a bounce spell, or even a back-up Force when I need it most at instant speed, especially with a Gush or a Top available (I initially didn't have Top in the list, but then I added it after BBGD 16 and couldn't believe I didn't have it in the list in the 1st place!).

Just for reference, here is the list I ran at that tourney:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Artifact Creatures
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Enchantments
1 Fastbond

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Gush
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Preordain
2 Thoughtseize
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
1 Pyroblast
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Forest
1 Mountain

It went 4-2 and nearly Top 8-ed until I ran into a Gush deck in the last round of Swiss (I think it was against one of you, XxtSundaybxX or Desolutionist), the other loss coming at the hands of Shawn Griffiths and his DeMars' Control deck. So, with both losses coming at the hands of Blue and not Shops (Which I 2-0'd on the day), Misstep may be the right move in a mainboard change, along with at least 2 Preordains.

Thanks for the input and advice! If any of you have any more, keep 'em coming!

[XxtSundaybxX]

Your round 6 loss was to me(Allen Fulmer).

As far as Thoughtseize vs misstep, we tested duress in the main and it was unimpressive. It was okay, but I havent looked back since adding the missteps. They're just ridiculous. A few other people showed up to bluebell with misstep in they're deck but it doesn't serve the same purpose in they're deck.

Tezzeret is okay in the deck but if I had to take a guess as to how many games i won with key vault in the tourneys and in testing, it's very few. Also if your casting gush your setting yourself back lands making it harder to cast expensive spells like tezzeret.

Thirst for knowledge is a feel card. If you like it play it, I would personally play preordain over it. I'm playing 2 preordain and 1 ponder.

This is my current list just for your reference.

1 black lotus
5 mox
1sol ring
1 mana crypt
4 tarn
3 misty
2 sea
2 trop
2 volc
2 island
4 fow
3 mana drain
3 misstep
4 gush
2 preordain
1 ponder
1 a recall
1 brainstorm
1 gifts
1 Imp seal
1 DT
1 vamp
1 scroll
1 timewalk
1 tinker
3 jace
1 yawgwill
1 key
1 timevault
1 senseis top
1 blightsteel
1 fastbond
1 ancient grudge
1 hurkyls

[Stormanimagus]

Your round 6 loss was to me(Allen Fulmer).

As far as Thoughtseize vs misstep, we tested duress in the main and it was unimpressive. It was okay, but I havent looked back since adding the missteps. They're just ridiculous. A few other people showed up to bluebell with misstep in they're deck but it doesn't serve the same purpose in they're deck.

Tezzeret is okay in the deck but if I had to take a guess as to how many games i won with key vault in the tourneys and in testing, it's very few. Also if your casting gush your setting yourself back lands making it harder to cast expensive spells like tezzeret.

Thirst for knowledge is a feel card. If you like it play it, I would personally play preordain over it. I'm playing 2 preordain and 1 ponder.

This is my current list just for your reference.

1 black lotus
5 mox
1sol ring
1 mana crypt
4 tarn
3 misty
2 sea
2 trop
2 volc
2 island
4 fow
3 mana drain
3 misstep
4 gush
2 preordain
1 ponder
1 a recall
1 brainstorm
1 gifts
1 Imp seal
1 DT
1 vamp
1 scroll
1 timewalk
1 tinker
3 jace
1 yawgwill
1 key
1 timevault
1 senseis top
1 blightsteel
1 fastbond
1 ancient grudge
1 hurkyls

How is Mental Misstep a good main deck card in an environment that sees high percentages of Shop decks, all of which run almost no 1 CMC cards? I don't doubt the power of the card elsewhere, but shouldn't it be in the SB at the very least?

-Storm

[XxtSundaybxX]

There were exactly 0 shop decks in the top 8 of the blue bell were referring to. And there were 0 shop decks in the most recent blue bell. Seeing the pattern here? There are no shop decks. And if there were shop decks spell pierce(the card we replaced) is not much better vs shops game 1. The deck has a perfectly fine shops matchup. Shops are at an extreme low right now, hence why people are playing mystic remora.

[cvarosky80]

Well to this point, I've cut the TfK and the Hurkyl's Recall from the main 2 to put in the 2 Preordains while cutting the EtW from the board to place the Hurkyl's Recall. With E-Truth in the main, I feel it's effective enough vs. the field. To try out the Missteps, I can outright cut the Seizes for the time being, but here's my question: How effective has Misstep against the Aggro builds like Fish and Plateaus been to this point?

One other question: I am thinking of cutting an Underground Sea for a Mindbreak Trap, but don't know what, if anything, I would possibly cut from the board to fit in an extra land for Shops and Aggro. Thoughts?

And thanks to you all for your critiques to this point. Being away from the game for so long plus the lack of a good testing group really does make it difficult to try out a lot of options live, so those of you who do get to play consistently are a valuable resource.

[cvarosky80]

So, taking in the differing opinions, here's an updated list:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Artifact Creatures
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Enchantments
1 Fastbond

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
3 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
   
Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Preordain
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
2 Island

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Nature's Claim
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Mountain

I'm not quite sure about cutting the 3rd Jace, seeing how powerful he is once he resolves, but with all of this protection surrounding him (And the fact that I slide one out against Shops), it's certainly worth trying out. The Preordains are certainly a great addition, and with 2 + 1 Ponder, it is at a more "balanced" ratio than the list I ran at BB. The only aspect of the board I don't like is cutting a Dredge-Hate card to make room for a land, however, I have yet to actually play against a Dredge deck live (I didn't see any at BB, and no one I know actually runs one for me to test up against). I have run one on MWS in solo mode just to get a "feel" for how the deck operates (In fact, that's how I initially scouted most Vintage deck-types. It doesn't replace live testing, but it is a decent enough option to see how each deck works fundamentally), but this is one deck that I REALLY want to play against live, as it's an arch-type that didn't even exist the last time I played this game. Pairing up the Missteps with the Thoughtseizes looks really interesting on paper, and I am very intrigued to see if it works. Either way, the list I opened this thread with and this list here are certainly stronger than what I ran at the last tourney, but I try to be a perfectionist of sorts, and I know there is no such thing as the perfect list, but it never stopped me from trying before, and it never will as long as I am playing

[XxtSundaybxX]

I personally wouldn't cut hurkyls from the maindeck. Shops is still out there and there are times when you don't have 4 mana for jace but you might have mystical or the hurks itself. It's a rare occurance(hasn't come up for me yet in 5 or so tourneys or testing. The jaces have bounced bsc everytime, just something to think about. Its also great vs shops.

In regards to your control package I personally think your playing too much. Mental misstep will be way better than Thoughtseize. I promise. Its not a card we just threw in and hoped it would be good. We tested it extensively and it didn't disappoint. It just gets better and better. Also the loss of life with Thoughtseize and misstep and fastbond will get you.

I'm on the fence about jace #3. Like you mentioned when he sticks he's amazing. But there's been plenty of times I've drawn him later in the game where my opponent will have a creature or 2 out and its like paying 4 mana to brainstorm. I'm not saying jace #3 should be cut just saying depending on the meta, it's not an auto include just because it's "jace". I'm currently not playing mystical but considering playing it over jace 3.

Empty is another card I'm very unsure of. There are games I wish I had it and then there are games i don't mind not drawing a dead card. I'm really torn on this. Also like I said with so many traps and remoras running around it's iffy. Also people are now playing etruth as well.

We are still working on the sideboard currently but if your playing 15 lands in the main you might want to consider 2 more lands in the sb. Our original list ran 16 lands main and 1 in the sb and we never lost a match to shops.

You could cut the spell bomb or the jailer from the sb. For 1 dredge deck showing up to every tourney 5 pieces will be fine. You can also be just as fast as them.

[cvarosky80]

I personally wouldn't cut hurkyls from the maindeck. Shops is still out there and there are times when you don't have 4 mana for jace but you might have mystical or the hurks itself. It's a rare occurance(hasn't come up for me yet in 5 or so tourneys or testing. The jaces have bounced bsc everytime, just something to think about. Its also great vs shops.

In regards to your control package I personally think your playing too much. Mental misstep will be way better than Thoughtseize. I promise. Its not a card we just threw in and hoped it would be good. We tested it extensively and it didn't disappoint. It just gets better and better. Also the loss of life with Thoughtseize and misstep and fastbond will get you.

I'm on the fence about jace #3. Like you mentioned when he sticks he's amazing. But there's been plenty of times I've drawn him later in the game where my opponent will have a creature or 2 out and its like paying 4 mana to brainstorm. I'm not saying jace #3 should be cut just saying depending on the meta, it's not an auto include just because it's "jace". I'm currently not playing mystical but considering playing it over jace 3.

Empty is another card I'm very unsure of. There are games I wish I had it and then there are games i don't mind not drawing a dead card. I'm really torn on this. Also like I said with so many traps and remoras running around it's iffy. Also people are now playing etruth as well.

We are still working on the sideboard currently but if your playing 15 lands in the main you might want to consider 2 more lands in the sb. Our original list ran 16 lands main and 1 in the sb and we never lost a match to shops.

You could cut the spell bomb or the jailer from the sb. For 1 dredge deck showing up to every tourney 5 pieces will be fine. You can also be just as fast as them.

Yeah, I don't like the idea of cutting a land from the mainboard either, and have placed another Island into the maindeck. I don't like cutting the Thoughtseize (I'm old and stubborn dammit! I like my Duress effects!), but have done so and used those 2 open slots to re-insert the Hurkyl's Recall along with the Island (I initially had 3 Underground Seas in that slot, but without the Seizes, it seems unnecessary to have 3 when I have 7 fetchlands to get one if I need it. Plus, basic land is certainly better against Wasteland than anything else). Worst case scenario, the Missteps don't work out for me and the Seizes go back in, so I'm going to go ahead and take your word for it, since you and desolutionist both have had a lot of tourney success with your methods, and go with the Missteps.

As far as the Sideboard goes, I've been toying around with that for some time and after making the decision to cut the Seizes, I'm leaning towards something like this:

1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Mountain

It still gives me 6 options for Dredge, and amps up the Shop Hate as well with the 4th Ancient Grudge (I initially had been running 3 between the main and the board). Now, even though I don't get to do a lot of live testing, I have tested HEAVILY against Shops. One of my friends has a particularly nasty Revoker-MUD build that is specifically aimed at crushing Blue decks of all shapes and sizes (But then again, what Shop build isn't built to do that?), and I do extremely well against it, especially post-board, and this is just an attempt to increase that success in the face of the Slash Panther builds that I've seen. I'd actually rather have Ingot Chewers instead of the Claims, but I do like having a good weapon vs. Oath. The only thing I might want to change with this is the Mountain. You are right that having an extra basic or 2 is very good vs. Shops, but what I'm beginning to see from my testing against them is that with 7 fetches, you can get around most, if not all of the Strip-Waste-Ghost effects with 16 maindeck lands, and cutting the Mountain will give me a slot for a 3rd Misstep to bring in vs. Blue and Gush mirrors.

The 3rd Jace, yeah we're in the same boat on that, it seems. I like having 3, especially vs. Blue Control, but, just as you said, there are plenty of moments where he floods your hand at inopportune moments. After BB, the 1st thing I did was cut Tezz from that list for the 2nd Jace, the 3rd came into the list after seeing how Blue was beginning to overtake the meta big time (Just like the good old days) and I was just trying to adjust. But, after looking a bit deeper into the other Blue lists out there, I've seen that the ones, like Vintage Control, that do run 3 Jaces are, for lack of a better term, "slower" than Gush. Now granted, the only live testing I've had against Blue is the 2 losses I had against yourself and Griffiths at BB, so it's tough for me to judge if 3 Jaces are needed instead of 2.

As far as EtW goes, I don't really miss it. The only time I got to play it at that tourney was Game 1 against you.....and we know how that ended..... That aside, there's not many other matchups against the field that I find myself really "wanting" to have it in my hand. Shops: Hell no! Fish/Beats/Plateaus: Eh, Tinker with counter backup for StP/Bounce is the way I'd prefer to go. Dredge: Haven't played against it, but it doesn't matter what your win-con is there, just as long as you have one. Oath: See Shops. Blue is the only time I would really want to have it in my hand, but you've made the point, and a damn good one too, that Remora + Mindbreak = Dead EtW and probably a next turn win for the opponent.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Yeah I'm going back to my original mana base after losing to shops multiple times today to that revoker,precursor list. But with the new sb and the old rock solid manabase with the mountain on the sb(17th land) that deck is rather weak to spot removal. Ancient grudge/claim kills not only the precursor golem but if they have a lodestone out as well it kills that too. 4 for 1. I'll take that anyday. If I were you I would consider going back to 2 grudge and playing 2 claim in the sb. It's way more versatile. It's obv good vs shops, it's great vs oath and you can bring it in vs fish to either kill null rod or claim your mox to gain 4 life. Basically vs fish it's a timewalk. Sometimes that's all you need.

As far as the sideboard goes I'm not going to post mine yet because I'm not totally sure what it's going to be for now but your on the right track.

[cvarosky80]

Yeah I'm going back to my original mana base after losing to shops multiple times today to that revoker,precursor list. But with the new sb and the old rock solid manabase with the mountain on the sb(17th land) that deck is rather weak to spot removal. Ancient grudge/claim kills not only the precursor golem but if they have a lodestone out as well it kills that too. 4 for 1. I'll take that anyday. If I were you I would consider going back to 2 grudge and playing 2 claim in the sb. It's way more versatile. It's obv good vs shops, it's great vs oath and you can bring it in vs fish to either kill null rod or claim your mox to gain 4 life. Basically vs fish it's a timewalk. Sometimes that's all you need.

As far as the sideboard goes I'm not going to post mine yet because I'm not totally sure what it's going to be for now but your on the right track.

Do you mean only running 2 Grudges and 2 Claims outright? Or 2 Grudges and 2 Claims in the sideboard? I have 2 Grudges in the maindeck and 2 in the board along with the 2 Claims in the board as well. Just want to make sure I didn't misunderstand what you meant is all.

[XxtSundaybxX]

2 grudge overall, 2 claim overall.

[cvarosky80]

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I'll have to try that out and see what I can bring in to fill those 2 slots in the board where the Grudges currently are. I'm thinking Mindbreak Trap and the 3rd Misstep , or the Trap and the maindeck E-Truth, moving the 3rd Misstep to the maindeck (I'm beginning to see the reasoning behind the Missteps after looking over the field lists....Very interesting). I like the E-Truth somewhere in the 75 simply because it deals with mass threats like EtW tokens and multiples of things like Bob/Pridemages/ect. as well as Marit Lage in the event of running into a Dark Times deck (I know it isn't a very popular deck numbers-wise, but I have played against it live and it is a very troublesome deck for Gush). Truth be told, Marit Lage is probably the number one reason I have it in the 75 as Jace cannot deal with it since the Hexmage trick is normally done on their turn....that's where E-Truth steps in. And I know things like Chain are cheaper, but E-Truth is only 1 colorless more than Chain AND it can wipe away swarms as well as bounce Blightsteel without sending the rest of their Moxes back to their hand so they can just replay them for Storm Counts if they're running Tendrils or EtW. Plus is not too terrible against Shops as it can wipe out multiple Spheres, Thorns, or Chalices when I'm ready to "go off". Not as good as Hurkyl's or even Rebuild, but it's versatility against the field makes it a good card to run as far as I have been able to see. Very good stuff here by the way. Very helpful. Thanks.

[desolutionist]

primer for playing this deck:

1. main for blue, side for stax
2. jace, jace, jace.
3. gush, gush, gush, gush > Bob (Bob sucks, but still counter it if it seems reasonable)
4. don't talk about this deck on public forums

[XxtSundaybxX]

primer for playing this deck:

1. main for blue, side for stax
2. jace, jace, jace.
3. gush, gush, gush, gush > Bob (Bob sucks, but still counter it if it seems reasonable)
4. don't talk about this deck on public forums

Hahaha I'm pretty sure I saw you talking about the new sideboard strategy in a different thread

And also "gush control" is kinda lame. We (Shawn) named the deck "East Coast Wins"

[PhilipJFry]

So, when sideboarding this deck vs. Shops, what do you take out?  Obviously, the big gobs of Artifact hate and maybe extra basics slides on it, but what is coming out besides Misstep?

[XxtSundaybxX]

It all depends on what shops list your referring to.

Against a deck like expresso with tangle wires and stacks timewalk can come out. Also a jace could come out as well as gifts. Jace is really good in this matchup because they don't have a lot of creature threats to attack your jace, however it can be hard to cast him through wire,spheres and ports.

Against the newer panther lists they're boarding jesters caps, so I leave all the jaces in because it's a win condition.

On the draw you can board out a mox.

I always board out imperial seal against shops in general. A preordain can also come out.

[cvarosky80]

And also "gush control" is kinda lame. We (Shawn) named the deck "East Coast Wins"

Yeah, I didn't have a name for the deck at the time, but after reading Shawn's primer, I'm naming it "Fight Club"

[desolutionist]

And also "gush control" is kinda lame. We (Shawn) named the deck "East Coast Wins"

Yeah, I didn't have a name for the deck at the time, but after reading Shawn's primer, I'm naming it "Fight Club"

Project Mayhem would sound pretty cool but unfortunately Mr. Coss will only post the list as "East Coast Wins".  He says we shouldn't change the name every weekend.

[cvarosky80]

Just wanted to take a moment and say: MENTAL MISSTEP IS THE SHIZZNIT! That is all.