Renting cards.

[Shax]

I was recently told on Cockatrice that I would be able to rent cards while I was up at Gencon. If this is true then what would be the prices of the rental? It made sense to post here since this is going to be my first Gencon anyways. It would make me feel good to win some die rolls all day. 

[honestabe]

I've always wondered why people don't rent out cards.  It seems like a good idea, assuming the vendor can claim some sort of collateral if you run off with what you've rented.

[Ten-Ten]

... just make them sign a legally binding document stating what was rented out and that they understand the value of said items,etc. etc.
you wouldn't need collateral, just ca$h per card rented out and an up-to date ID/credit card to leave with the vendor along with the signed agreement. Items would then be returned at end of event.

as far as knowing if this is already being done, don't think so. Too many risks for both parties, mostly the vendor.
 Like, what if the card(s) aren't returned in same condition or better yet, how would you know if the cards aren't exchanged for counterfeits or worse condition cards..and so on.

[Smmenen]

Wow, that's a great idea.  who set that up?

[Tha Gunslinga]

I was recently told on Cockatrice that I would be able to rent cards while I was up at Gencon. If this is true then what would be the prices of the rental?

I have not heard of this, and I sincerely doubt it would happen.  You may be able to find some sympathetic TMD member to borrow a set from, but I don't think there's any sort of official power rental going on.

[Smmenen]

I was recently told on Cockatrice that I would be able to rent cards while I was up at Gencon. If this is true then what would be the prices of the rental?

I have not heard of this, and I sincerely doubt it would happen.  You may be able to find some sympathetic TMD member to borrow a set from, but I don't think there's any sort of official power rental going on.

There should be.  That's a great idea for events like the Vintage champs. 

[Suicideking]

I dont think anyone does it because its a huge pain in the ass to the vender if the stuff isnt returned.  Even if they could take you to court it was be extremely time consuming.  That said some dealers will do it but theyre rare.

[Smmenen]

I dont think anyone does it because its a huge pain in the ass to the vender if the stuff isnt returned.  Even if they could take you to court it was be extremely time consuming.  That said some dealers will do it but theyre rare.

Credit cards are the solution to that.   Have a temporary hold or charge, just like hotels often do. 

[metalhead666]

Most dealer will "rent" cards out by allowing players to buy the cards at the beginning of the day and then sell them back at the end of the day, that is the only way I have ever heard of this working out.

[LordHomerCat]

Putting up a $4k hold charge on a credit card is not really something a lot of magic players can afford, especially the ones without power.  And as a dealer, I would be pretty worried about actually collecting.

[Troy_Costisick]

I dont think anyone does it because its a huge pain in the ass to the vender if the stuff isnt returned.  Even if they could take you to court it was be extremely time consuming.  That said some dealers will do it but theyre rare.

Credit cards are the solution to that.   Have a temporary hold or charge, just like hotels often do. 

Car rental agencies are another example of a business that uses the same process.  The whole thing seems like a dicey prospect to me, but a temporary hold on a credit card does seem like a viable option.  It seems scary to both loan and borrow that much at a convention, but if it could work, it would be huge boon for Vintage.  From a borrower's perspective, I would want assurances that when I rent cards from one worker at a booth and return them to a completely different worker eight hours later that there wouldn't be any mix-ups in removing the temporary hold from my credit card.  It would have to be someone very reputable for me to be interested.

[Smmenen]

Putting up a $4k hold charge on a credit card is not really something a lot of magic players can afford, especially the ones without power.  And as a dealer, I would be pretty worried about actually collecting.

How do car companies address this problem? When you go to avis and rent a car, there is always the risk of totalling it. 

[jcb193]

Putting up a $4k hold charge on a credit card is not really something a lot of magic players can afford, especially the ones without power.  And as a dealer, I would be pretty worried about actually collecting.

How do car companies address this problem? When you go to avis and rent a car, there is always the risk of totalling it. 

I think the rate of incidence for a multi-billion dollar company is something they can mitigate.  Average dealer can't risk a $2000 hit, nor can the average magic player find a $2000 credit card hold.  You could total an Avis car and it wouldn't even show up on their balance sheet. 

But I think others are right.  Everything comes down to risk/return.  Is it worth $50-$100 to risk theft/fake credit card/legal recourse/damage/counterfeit.  Or better yet, is there really enough demand to make it worthwhile? 

[Smmenen]

Putting up a $4k hold charge on a credit card is not really something a lot of magic players can afford, especially the ones without power.  And as a dealer, I would be pretty worried about actually collecting.

How do car companies address this problem? When you go to avis and rent a car, there is always the risk of totalling it. 

I think the rate of incidence for a multi-billion dollar company is something they can mitigate.  Average dealer can't risk a $2000 hit, nor can the average magic player find a $2000 credit card hold.  You could total an Avis car and it wouldn't even show up on their balance sheet. 

But I think others are right.  Everything comes down to risk/return.  Is it worth $50-$100 to risk theft/fake credit card/legal recourse/damage/counterfeit.  Or better yet, is there really enough demand to make it worthwhile? 

I think there is another important question: what function would such a service serve for the community?  I think an important one. 

[Suicideking]

But how much would someone be willing to pay?  Youre in for $30 to enter the event and if you spend $30 on power you need to win to make any real earnings.  It would have to be $5 or $10 otherwise youre just throwing cash away. 

[cvarosky80]

You know, there's a way this whole thing can be circumvented and get more people in to Vintage. Reprints. But noooooo why do that when we can just watch the price of things like Power and Duals just reach absurd heights to where no one can reasonably afford them anymore?

[jcb193]

Is renting cards fundamentally any different than proxies?

Wizards could reprint official proxy-only cards (so that at least they look nice), but obviously that affects the secondary market too.

[Shax]

Please don't try to hijack my thread and come up with the idea of Reprints and Proxy's. There have been many threads on those subjects so please do not troll this thread about Renting cards any further. Please do not post if you have nothing to contribute.
I was planning on carring a wad o cash with me to Gencon and seeing if the dealer would accept holding my cash and collection instead that would circumvent the value on the power/whatever since I can get any of the other cards from a friend I am going with. I think it would increase the turnout for sure at Vintage Champs and give incentive for other matters on Power/Shopish cards to be taken.

[cvarosky80]

Please don't try to hijack my thread and come up with the idea of Reprints and Proxy's. There have been many threads on those subjects so please do not troll this thread about Renting cards any further. Please do not post if you have nothing to contribute.
I was planning on carring a wad o cash with me to Gencon and seeing if the dealer would accept holding my cash and collection instead that would circumvent the value on the power/whatever since I can get any of the other cards from a friend I am going with. I think it would increase the turnout for sure at Vintage Champs and give incentive for other matters on Power/Shopish cards to be taken.

My apologies on that. I wasn't trying to hijack this thread intentionally. As far as renting cards, it's a good idea if it can be done moderately and respectively to both parties involved (i.e. The Dealer and the Player). The one problem though is that there has to be enough to go around for the tournament field. That seems like a bigger issue than the logistics (i.e. The renting fee, insurance of safe return, etc.). How much Power is there really to go around?

[Shax]

 How much Power is there really to go around?

Enough to satisfy my needs. That is all that needs to go around. 

No seriously, that has already been talked about before on these boards as well. Steve always comes up with some logistics and hard to follow algebra equations to show how many Black Lotus and Power 8 remain. Meaning if theres enough time to do math on how much is left, there should be enough to rent out to enough people that want to do that.

[Delha]

The one problem though is that there has to be enough to go around for the tournament field. That seems like a bigger issue than the logistics (i.e. The renting fee, insurance of safe return, etc.). How much Power is there really to go around?

Way to ignore the bigger question. As asked earlier, how do you propose the dealer protect his investment without demanding a ridiculous outlay from the player?

[madmanmike25]

As asked earlier, how do you propose the dealer protect his investment without demanding a ridiculous outlay from the player?

Hold onto a valid Driver's License/Passport?   

There is also the possibility of COLLATERAL.  For example, someone wants to play in a large Vintage tournament but they are missing four Bazaar's for their Dredge deck.  They do however have dual lands that aren't going to be of any use since they dont have any moxen to back them up for a worthwhile deck.  If I were a dealer, I wouldn't mind accepting the minimum hold on a credit card AND/OR holding on to a set amount of EASILY liquifiable cards in lieu of said credit card hold. 

You could easily mitigate the potential to lose your cards if you had replacements in addition to a card payment.

The best cards to rent are ones that are already heavily played, but they should still be graded and that should be written into the contract.  Any dealer would be foolish to rent minty cards and expect them to return minty.  This could be quite lucrative for a dealer as he basically loses no product!

I think this idea has a  lot of merit.  Most players would want to get their best cards back.  Put those Foil or foreign cards to use!

[Delha]

I forsee a few potential issues with that suggestion, but nothing that strikes me as particular damning. The key point of my prior post was that supply really isn't the primary roadblock to this idea becoming reality.

[jcb193]

Well if you have wads of cash, why not just buy the power and then resell it?  You'll lose 10% on ebay if you do this straight up, or make money if you are shrewd.  Other than that, obviously any deal can be worked out with any person, it just has to benefit you both.  Why not ask a reputable seller and then tell us what you find out? They've obvoiusly considered it at some point?

[Smmenen]

Well if you have wads of cash, why not just buy the power and then resell it?  You'll lose 10% on ebay if you do this straight up, or make money if you are shrewd.  Other than that, obviously any deal can be worked out with any person, it just has to benefit you both.  Why not ask a reputable seller and then tell us what you find out? They've obvoiusly considered it at some point?

If you need to rent a car for a weekend in a strange city, why would you go to a dealer and buy a new one when you can go to avis and rent one? 

Or, if you go to a strange city, you don't go to a real estate agent and buy a house -- you rent a room in a hotel.

Same principle. 

There shouldn't be so much opposition to the idea of setting up a rental card network.   Are people afraid that this will diminish the value of their cards?   

[cvarosky80]

I would think that the requirements that a valid credit card be presented (Just like when reserving a room at a hotel), a valid photo I.D. along with some kind of legal document being signed by the rent-ee (Not a "contract" in that sense, but something insuring the renter that he can pursue legal action against the rent-ee in case of theft in addition to charging the credit card) would be sufficient enough to make this idea a reality. It would certainly make sure to protect the renters of the cards from things like theft and/or excessive damage to the cards being rented.

[DubDub]

I think there is another important question: what function would such a service serve for the community?  I think an important one. 

If you think it's important, you're free to try.  Best of luck to you.

There shouldn't be so much opposition to the idea of setting up a rental card network.

I wouldn't characterize the responses here as opposition.  They're not "No, don't do that, it would be bad."  They're instead "Eh, that seems tricky to make work, I want no part of it."  Nothing written here is going to stop someone from attempting to set up a rental card network.

Recognizing that available rentals would be good for the community is one thing, actually making rentals available is another.

[jcb193]

What's a fair price?  I personally wouldn't rent out a P9 set for anything less than $100, and even then the risk/reward is hardly worth it (especially if you have to deal with legal possibilities, damage, credit card fraud/chargebacks, or counterfeits).  

And if you are using typical business models (low demand, high value product), true rental charges probably come closers to $200-$400.  

Would you pay $100+ and $30 to play in a vintage tournament?

I think the barter system makes sense ("hey, here's is my workshop +$20, can I borrow your bazaar), but there is no standardization for this, and most dealers want clean deals, not complicated ones (rentals).  But for anything more robust than that, it seems pretty impractical.  Rentals are a great concept, it's just hard not to play devil's advocate on.  Any dealers want to chime in?  

P.S.:  I don't think buying and reselling power is comparable to buying and reselling a car or hotel room.  Magic cards are very liquid, low value, and rarely depreciate.  
P.P.S.: Just the threat of counterfeits alone would prevent me from doing this as a dealer.  (As a person who's looked at hundreds of T1 players' binders, why is it that everyone has tons of power, but nobody ever has Liches, or Cyclopean Tombs, or Jade Statues....You can't tell me there aren't tons of counterfeits floating around).

Who here would rent?  What would you pay?  Is it more profitable for dealers to rent (and possibly undermine their sales model), or to stick with only selling?

[ReubenG]

I have been thinking about what you could do about the cards getting replaced with a counterfeit, and I think anyone doing this would want to find Heavily played Power since you would want to keep renting them out to garner more profit.   I would actually consider "stamping" the cards with your business logo/address on the white border, then when wanting to sell them have someone alter the art and paint over the stamp with a black border.

Renting them out a lot will cause them to wear out quite a bit due to re-sleeving. To reduce this, I would rent them out with new perfect fit sleeves and opaque sleeves with the logo of you business on the back.

P.P.S.: Just the threat of counterfeits alone would prevent me from doing this as a dealer.  (I've always wondered when looking at a T1 player's binder why everyone has tons of power, but nobody ever had Liches, or Cyclopean Tombs, or Jade Monoliths....You can't tell me there aren't tons of counterfeits floating around).

This may be off topic, but at a tournament like the Vintage Champs, do they do deck checks and inspect Power for authenticity?  What is to stop someone from competing with counterfeit Power now? 

[jcb193]

I have been thinking about what you could do about the cards getting replaced with a counterfeit, and I think anyone doing this would want to find Heavily played Power since you would want to keep renting them out to garner more profit.   I would actually consider "stamping" the cards with your business logo/address on the white border, then when wanting to sell them have someone alter the art and paint over the stamp with a black border.

Great idea.  Get BTH power card, stamp your logo on the top, and rent them like crazy.  Not only do you promote your brand, you prevent subsititions, and you minimize the damage to good condition cards.  The economies are what I have problems with.  If you charge $25 to rent a lotus, you need to rent that card out 50+ times without incident.  

And do dealers want to be renting out cards?  Because if this works, who's to stop them from renting Jittes or Metavaults for $2-3.  Is this the business they want to be in?  I'm curious, not condeming.