Renting cards.

[BC]

This may be off topic, but at a tournament like the Vintage Champs, do they do deck checks and inspect Power for authenticity?  What is to stop someone from competing with counterfeit Power now? 

They definitely check all the decks before the top 8.  They pull the cards out of sleeves and inspect them.  I don't know if they do the same thing if you get deck checked during the tournament, but I think they probably do.  That being said, I've never gotten deck checked at Vintage Champs, nor have I made top 8, so if I was playing with fake power all these years probably nobody would have noticed.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Great idea.  Get BTH power card, stamp your logo on the top, and rent them like crazy.

Where are you going to rent power, other than Gencon?  What other US sanctioned events are there?  Sure, in Europe you could conceivably find more events, but in the US, you're basically stuck.

[Smmenen]

P.S.:  I don't think buying and reselling power is comparable to buying and reselling a car or hotel room.  Magic cards are very liquid, low value, and rarely depreciate.  

A set of power nine is probably less liquid than a car. Just look on craigslist

A few weeks ago I had occasion to rent a car from one of the car rental companies, and they put me into an almost brand new car with probably 5000 miles on it.  I rented it for $25, all paid by my insurance, and the car probably cost $20,000+ new.

They did a thorough inspection after renting it for damage.   Same thing could happen here.   

[Blue Lotus]

The difference is the volume of people renting a car compared to the volume of people renting power. As has been said before, if a car gets ripped its a drop in the bucket. If power gets stolen its much more than that. Also, you can't counterfeit a car and return it as easily as power.

Basically its a terrible comparison.

If you want to rent your power and take on the risk and possibly make some cash then that is your decision. But its easy to understand why a dealer wouldn't want to.

[Smmenen]

Actually, it's an amazing comparison.  The comparison is very strong; what isn't strong is the size of the market. 

The fact that there are differences doesn't mean its not comparable.  As between any two things, there will always be differences.  In terms of the type of product at issue, one that is not easily fungible, rather expensive to purchase or sell, the comparisons are very strong.   What's different is that the market size for the hotels, cars versus type I magic cards is very different.

It should be relatively easy to set up power rental.   All you need is a credit card, and long authorization form. 

I would rent Power Nine at something like $50-$75 per day, and set it up like this:

* You fill out a very long authorization form just like you do for car rentals, detailing the condition of the cards.

* You have to provide a credit card with an appropriate credit limit to ensure compensation in case the cards are lost or stolen. 

* You do a post-rental appraisal for condition, and any nicks or wears are charged to the card based upon the depreciation in value.   Just like you would do with a rental car or for damage to a hotel room.

As long as the renter has a credit card with an authorization limit of several grand, like most people do, it should be easy to set up.   

[TheWhiteDragon]

There's too much risk in it, honestly.  I contracted a guy to put in a patio for example...the guy did half the job and left.  I only paid him for the work he did, but it left me with a shabby, unfinished patio.  The cost to remove it alone was more than I paid him.  We sued, had a contract he was clearly in breech of, even had the county inspector as a witness...he failed to show in court and lost the case.  He has yet to be heard from and hasn't paid me a dime.  The police couldn't care less, because they don't go after people for civil cases.  I could pay $500 for a writ of seizure done to have his assets seized and sold, IF they should find him...but he has no working contacts and is no longer at his listed residence.

If a vendor gives out $2000 in P9, there's a great chance they could just get some wrong info from the guy and he could just leave.  In the time constraints of a tourney, they can't verify your info.  Court time is lost money, then you need to front out more cash to have police try to get the money.  None of that is guaranteed you'd see a penny back.  It is just too easy for people to borrow a huge amount of cash and just stroll out into exile.  Most people would be legit, but it would only take one to make the whole system would be removed.

[jcb193]

Actually, it's an amazing comparison.  The comparison is very strong; what isn't strong is the size of the market.  

Sorry Steve.  I often agree with what you have to say, but I fail to see the brilliance of your comparison.  You think it's a very simply comparison, but you are failing to factor in the following:
- car rental companies assets (mitigation)
- car rental companies streamlined processes (designed to do one thing: rent cars to large numbers of people in large numbers of venues)
- demand for Vintage cards (very low, sporadic)
- counterfeit risk (can't fake a VIN)
- stolen credit card risk
- credit card chargeback risk
- legal costs
- pursuing costs
- time/annoyance factor
- lost opportunity cost  Does a dealer want his P9 cards being played during Gencon, when he could be selling them instead (possibly their best chance of selling them all year?)
(most of these risks are not viable for a small business person).


But we're all missing the point here.
1.) Will people pay $50-$75 to rent P9?  Is that amount worth the risk/hassle to a dealer?  If there are people that would, obviously there are dealers that might find value in it.
2.) There has to be a reason this hasn't caught on (even in Standard).  Dealers either find it low value or high hassle.

Not starting a flame war, but just because you said "it's an amazing comparison" doesn't mean it is.  (disclaimer: I don't know anything about Vintage magic anymore, but I do know plenty about risk/finance/small business)

[Smmenen]

If a vendor gives out $2000 in P9, there's a great chance they could just get some wrong info from the guy and he could just leave.  In the time constraints of a tourney, they can't verify your info.  Court time is lost money, then you need to front out more cash to have police try to get the money.  None of that is guaranteed you'd see a penny back.  It is just too easy for people to borrow a huge amount of cash and just stroll out into exile.  Most people would be legit, but it would only take one to make the whole system would be removed.

It's called a credit card.  Hotels do it, car rentals do it, hell even big box retailers do it.  

You run a card check to make sure that their is a sufficient credit limit the day of the rental.   You have them sign a very detailed rental agreement, get multiple forms of ID, etc.  It's really that not that hard.  

Sorry Steve.  I often agree with what you have to say, but I fail to see the brilliance of your comparison.  You think it's a very simply comparison, but you are failing to factor in the following:

None of the things you mentioned are real obstacles.

If you are planning to rent out $3000 in cards, you run a card credit check the day of the rental to make sure they that a $3000 charge goes through.   It's pretty simple really.  No court costs, no lawyers, no complaints or filings.  Just a simple transction with a detailed risk agreement signed before hand, and plenty of detailed identification information.

Hell, if you want, you could even ask to see a birth certificate and social security card, in addition to driver's license.  

Every single one of the risk factors you mentioned arises in other contexts.

Incidentally, I know someone else who was scammed by a contractor.   Generally, you can set it up so the bank that provided the home improvement loan is liable if they scam you.  

Of course a dealer doesn't have to do this.  No one is forcing anyone to do anything, but why is there so much hostility to the idea of attempting it?   It could easily work.  Is anyone threatened by the idea of setting up a loaning network of power nine?  

[TheWhiteDragon]

You should do it steve.  You have P9.  Loan it out  Mine's in a binder gathering dust.  I'd do it if I weren't certain I'd collect $50 in rental fees and be out a set of P9 in the same day...bargain cost for a P9 to anyone.

On a more serious note - if a tourney is $30 to enter, and then costs $50+ to rent the cards, that's a crapload of money to spend on playing in a tourney (other costs aside).  After a few tourney's, you may as well buy the cards.  And if a dealer were willing to rent a set of cards, it wouldn't be for less than that, otherwise it's not worth the risk/paperwork.  The fact that even renting a Tundra still requires the same legwork, it would mean charging a minimum loan fee.  Like $25 minimum charge at least.  That makes it unrealistic for anyone trying to just fill a few holes.  If you rent out a set of shops and the P9, it'd cost probably $70+.  If people rent on a budget, then why rent at all?

[Smmenen]

You should do it steve.  You have P9.  Loan it out  Mine's in a binder gathering dust.  I'd do it if I weren't certain I'd collect $50 in rental fees and be out a set of P9 in the same day...bargain cost for a P9 to anyone.

On a more serious note - if a tourney is $30 to enter, and then costs $50+ to rent the cards, that's a crapload of money to spend on playing in a tourney (other costs aside).  After a few tourney's, you may as well buy the cards.  And if a dealer were willing to rent a set of cards, it wouldn't be for less than that, otherwise it's not worth the risk/paperwork.  The fact that even renting a Tundra still requires the same legwork, it would mean charging a minimum loan fee.  Like $25 minimum charge at least.  That makes it unrealistic for anyone trying to just fill a few holes.  If you rent out a set of shops and the P9, it'd cost probably $70+.  If people rent on a budget, then why rent at all?

Alot of people spend alot of money to go to Gencon.  If they knew they could compete in the Vintage champs without having to shell out thousands for power, that could be a huge boon.  

I think $75 for a set of power nine for a day is probably in the fair range, and could generate at least a few if not more renters.   Alternatively, it oculd be nice to get $50 for renting a set of Shops or Bazaars on the day.

If I were a dealer, of course I'd be looking to sell, but if I had access to a credit card vendor and had the paperwork developed, I'd consider renting along the terms I outlined.

* Multiple forms of ID, and a copymachine to copy it

* A valid credit card with an appropriate credit limit tested, and it would have to be tested before the cards were loaned, with a hold or limit placed to minimize liability. 

* a fully signed risk and authorization form, much like one signs a car rental agreement.

* pre and post rental appraisal of cards to inspect for any damages, which might incur liability for depreciation.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The other problem not considered is that rental companies have insurance/sell insurance for when you turn your rented Prius into a monster truck on the freeway.  That premium is factored into their overhead.  A card vendor's insurance premiums would raise if it were covering loaners as well as straight out theft...and that increase probably mitigates any revenue.

[Delha]

I don't think that the tiny handful of transactions you'd be looking at make the effort worthwhile. Putting say $10,000 in cards on the line for under $300 in revenue is just bad business.

IIRC, $10k was the number I heard quoted to stock the wall of Games Workshop merch (from scratch) in the gaming store I used to work at. That's a hobby where every other weekend you'd see someone dropping $300 to kick off their latest army list (and we weren't even that big, as GW retailers go), without the risk of seeing it all go up in smoke.

To echo what DubDub said a while back, I think this is something people would love to see happen, but just don't consider a viable business model.

[madmanmike25]

WhiteDragon, I sympathize with your contractor example.  I rent out my properties and even though I have a signed lease and have taken them to court to sue for back rent, at the end of the day all I have left is a judgment in my favor.  Try cashing that in and see how far you get.  The best part is when the court asks me for their NEW address to go after them.  Hilarious....

I think this project would have to be undertaken by a large party (i.e. SSG).  They could specifically seek out busted up pieces of power and stamp them in a way as not to mark them, yet make it difficult to steal.  If you are renting power, you probably don't care if it's ugly.

Even with the credit card hold (which itself is a very valid idea)  I'm surprised no one has considered my idea of holding highly tradeable cards.  Again, if you take multiples of those foil foriegn hot legacy staples, that could even EXCEED the value of say a Workshop/Bazaar, who in his right mind would try to walk away from that deal???

Collateral, my friends, will be great insurance to keep things honest.  If someone doesn't have ANY other good cards......they probably don't have the Vintage staples necessary to compete anyways and/or can't afford to rent high dollar cards.

How's this for an example:

I’m at Gencon.  I’m going to play MUD but I don’t have Workshops (the horror).  I walk up to the vendor and decide to rent four beat-up Workshops valued at $150.00 each.  He runs a $600.00 hold on my credit card which I sign in addition to signing the lease agreement.  The RENTAL price for four Workshops is $60.00 (10% seems fair to me both to the dealer and renter).  In addition I put up enough dual lands to ensure I won’t walk away from the deal.  That number should be a % of the total value of the cards rented, in this case $600.  This dealer needs $200.00 worth of my duals.  I agree.  They might also ask to hold onto my driver’s license seeing as I will be at a tournament and not be driving anywhere until after it is over.

The tournament ends, and I won every single game without having to sideboard.  I walk back to the reputable dealer, he inspects his Workshops and I inspect my duals that were put in a secure binder.  I get my $600.00 hold taken off, and we both sign off on the lease stating everything was satisfactory.
 
If by chance any damage was done to the cards, that’s my responsibility as stated in the lease.  You could even offer insurance at $10.00 per card to increase your profit.  If one of the Workshops has a nick, you compare it the photo’s that should have been taken and assess the damages to be charged on the credit card.  The burden of financial liability falls on the renter of the cards.  This helps ensure they take good care of them.

So tell me why couldn’t this idea work again?

[Delha]

So tell me why couldn’t this idea work again?

I think the problem remains that you're doing a whole lot of work for not a lot of profit.

There's also a lot of ground there for people to dispute card condition. The incentive is clearly present for people on either side to falsify (or even just exaggerate) any damage, however small. Even assuming no foul play, there are bound to be cases where one party (honestly but incorrectly) believes that their card is coming back in worse condition than before. There's no clean resolution to that.

The most reliable way to handle disputes is to have a neutral third party involved from the start (with agreements from both the vendor and customer to abide by the judgement of said third party), but that doesn't change the fact that one side of the other is going to walk away with a bad taste in their mouth if something comes up. Also, finding someone both sides trust and getting them involved is an extra pain in the ass (and quite possibly means a cost increase).

[jcb193]

I think the condition of the cards has to be taken out of the equation (ie, only rent out beat to hell).  There is just WAY TOO much room for argument and interpretation.

[madmanmike25]

Why would you take something so important out of the equation?  It's crazy to think a dealer would rent out a mint condition card.  I've seen cards so beat up, you can barely read them.  For an example, when I rent out a house I EXPECT a certain amount of damage to be done.  It's called normal wear and tear. 

I think the problem remains that you're doing a whole lot of work for not a lot of profit.

This is what I don't get.  You are selling nothing.  You still have your cards.  Running a credit card and signing a contract doesn't sound like too much work to make money.  Btw, this idea is mainly for an EXISTING business that might already have the cards needed.  I don't think someone buying cards to rent is going to make like a bandit in the tourny scene...

The dealer has to be reputable.  To assume anyone would rent cards for the purpose of claiming false damages is pointless.......the same could be said for the hotel or car rental examples.  People still rent hotels and cars that are much higher in value and have a much higher replacement cost.  In the contract, which both parties should have a copy of, you state the condition of the cards to rent.  (heavily played, slight crease top right, whitening around edges, minor indentations on back, etc. etc.)  If this point isn't clear let me spell it out;  the junkier the card, the less cause for people to try and claim false damages.

The card will always be a card.  I doubt there is any point in our lives where it disintegrates when played in a sleeve.  When all is said and done the dealer could still sell the beat up card if rentals proved not to be profitable.

I estimate the entire procedure could be done within 30 minutes.  Just show up a little earlier to that tournament.

Btw, the more I think about my collateral example it leads me to think that it might be more suited to people who can't afford the credit card deposit.

Clearly there are obstacles, but the idea could make someone money and encourage more people to attend vintage tournaments since they can play decks they previously could not.

[jcb193]

Where did I say only rent out mint condition cards?  I said only rent out Beat to Hell cards (BTH).  Cards that are well played.  These are very well suited for renting, and help take condition out of the equation.  Or wear and tear.

[Smmenen]

I think the condition of the cards has to be taken out of the equation (ie, only rent out beat to hell).  There is just WAY TOO much room for argument and interpretation.

That's just nonsense.   Rental car companies do a detailed look at a car pre and post rental.  You can even take photos before and after, and have the renter sign them. 

So tell me why couldn’t this idea work again?

I think the problem remains that you're doing a whole lot of work for not a lot of profit.

Why is that for you to decide?  Let a potential card renter decide that for themself.

[jcb193]

Well, if it's a great idea, some opportunist will take advantage of it and make hundreds (dozens?) of dollar as Gencon.  Good luck, would be good for the format. 

I still don't see how this is fundamentally different than proxies.....Doesn't help the issue with Vintage: the more $$, the more competitive you can be at vintage.

[Delha]

I think the problem remains that you're doing a whole lot of work for not a lot of profit.

This is what I don't get.  You are selling nothing.  You still have your cards.

I think the problem remains that you're doing a whole lot of work for not a lot of profit.

Why is that for you to decide?  Let a potential card renter decide that for themself.

Selling is less work than renting. If the player were just buying Shops, they'd hand you money, you'd hand them cards, end of story. There's no rental paperwork, documentation of quality, or collateral. People seem to believe that I'm claiming that this will put dealers in the red, which is was not my intent. A venture doesn't necessarily have to be in the red in order to be considered a failure. Even service/product lines that are making a company money can easily be cut. It's just a question of if they're making enough money for it to be considered worth the trouble.

At the end of the day, I'd like to repeat that I don't have anything against the idea. I honestly hope that someone tries it and succeeds against my expectations. I just don't think this will pan out as a business endeavor. I expect that if this does work out, it will be a case of someone (or some group) doing it to help the format rather than to make a couple extra bucks.