Elves! - Again

[xouman]

Hi to all,

I was wondering what would be the current approach for an elf deck just now. MUD is a terrible pairing, but nowadays people is getting tired and moving to cooler decks like gush or turbotezz, so maybe it's not the worst time to play Elves! again.

My main concern is DSC of course. There are solid answers apart from blocking it one turn and so being 2 turns alive to win? Maybe those 2 turns are usually enough even trough countermagic, but I'm not an expert with this deck.

Another concern is about playing or not Priest of Titania. Skullclamp is mana greedy comparing it with glimpse, and playing priest in T2 usually makes a heavy T3, specially with quirions and wirewood symbiotes. In Legacy few people play Titania, but they don't have skullclamp. I also put Titania over Archdruid because 1 mana should make it easier to play it on T2. It's better to play only with heritages and birchlores?

Besides, I'm planning to play Emrakul > grapeshot. Pithing or revoker on birchlore mades grapeshot dead, Emrakul does not need Eternal Witness and by turn 5 or 6 could be playable even if you cannot go with glimpse or skullclamp with Titania and quirions... The list I was thinking was something like this:

1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of titania
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Emrakul
1 Regal Force
1 Fastbond
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
4 Pact of Summoning
14 Forest

That list has 4 empty slots. Maybe 3 more fyndhorns? If T1->mana elf is the best we can play, maybe would be advisable. I only suggest a couple of birchlores in order to complement heritages, but probably fyndhorns are better.

My meta is high controlling, and I feel more confortable with emrakul because it can be somewhat playable, and so I rely on mana producing creatures.

For the side I was planning to play some pumpers (for fish and mud matchups), claim, grave hate and xantids. Xantid is not widely played, but I feel that against heavy control decks it's the key to safely win by turn 3. Althought it does not work with titania or heritage, it triggers glimpse and skullclamp. Will you focus on MUD with lots of cards or it is better to try to win those matchups that are closer?

Thank you all!

[Troy_Costisick]

That list has 4 empty slots. Maybe 3 more fyndhorns? If T1->mana elf is the best we can play, maybe would be advisable. I only suggest a couple of birchlores in order to complement heritages, but probably fyndhorns are better.


3 more Fyndhorns and probably one of the following: Gensis Wave, Doubling Chant, or Green Sun's Zenieth.  Also, I recomend playing 6 or 7 Fetchlands.  You really only need one or two forests in in play with this deck and hitting a patch of land under a Glimpse of Nature sucks, so any land thinning you can do is good.

[xouman]

Thanks Troy!

I've tested against the wall with 4 fyndhorns and I found it more reliable. This is a combo deck which can play a secondary beatdown role in some scenarios, but it's a combo deck nevertheless. And it really needs to go off in the third turn (less than 10% of the time I manage to go off on T2). In order to achieve that you have to main paths:

1) Play glimpse, and chain lots of cheap creatures finding along the way 1 heritage druid and 1 of more nettles. In this scenario it's needed to have a small amount of mana as long as we have those creatures. Problem: we can get without gas quite easy, with some little elves but without instant win.

2) Play skullclamp. In this scenario mana is more important, but it's easier to combo because of the 2 cards instead one. I have never failed to win as long as I have enough mana to play into skullclamp and be able to equip it and continue playing creatures.

3) Play regal force thanks to titania and quirion/wirewood, and pray to get some gas.


So now my main concern is: it's easier to get in need of mana or found yourselve in need of cards?. Against counterdecks you should focus on protect card drawing (as opponent would counter glimpse/skullclamp), while against MUD you would prefer to have as much mana as possible (and stay clear of CV 1). 4 glimpses + 4 skullclamps means that you have a 75%-79% to have one (of more) of them in the first 9-10 cards (T3, depending you play first or not, and ignoring mulligans). Should I add a couple of visionaries to reach 80%? I feel more confortable with mana productors, but maybe a T2 visionary is as important as a Priest of titania, what do you think?

For the sideboard, I would play 4 xantid swarm (against any deck with fows), but I'm not sure about the other 11 cards. I'd like root maze (and not playing fetchlands) because it does not really hurt us the way it hurts any other deck, specially control decks. I would like a real card against MUD, but I'm afraid I have found none. Hate against dredge shouldn't be a problem and I could choose. Any ideas?

[Daenyth]

One solution to BSC is Deglamer (1G Instant - Shuffle target artifact or enchantment into owners library). I don't know how valuable that is for you since you can't effectively tutor for it.

Maze of Ith maybe?

[Blue Lotus]

BSC has not been a problem for me playing elves. Just throw two elves or one nettle sentinel in front and you have two turns to go off. I cut priest, was too slow, you really want lots of one drops. And you definitely want 8 llanawar/fynderhorn elves; them turn one leads to the most turn two kills. I would also go up to four birchlore rangers. Birchlore + Nettle sentinel is gg with glimpse and nearly the same with skullclamp, barring a bad draw.

Emrakul is interesting. I wonder if you have tried terastadon? You can cast it easier and get it with summoning pact. Though I fell like if you have that much mana and a summoning pact getting regal force would just be better. Why not cut it altogether? In what situations have you cast Emrakul where a regal force wouldn't have just won you the game?

If you are afraid of needle or revoker, add one taiga or mox ruby. Though I can't imagine viridian shaman not addressing the problem. I mean wouldn't needle on heritage druid make emrakul uncastable?

For hate against mud I go with ancient grudge. It gets by chalice at one (essential) and can win the game by its self if drawn in multiples.

Good luck!

[Tha Gunslinga]

For hate against mud I go with ancient grudge. It gets by chalice at one (essential) and can win the game by its self if drawn in multiples.

Good luck!

What about Seeds of Innocence?

[Wagner]

For hate against mud I go with ancient grudge. It gets by chalice at one (essential) and can win the game by its self if drawn in multiples.

Good luck!

What about Seeds of Innocence?

What about Gleeful Sabotage?

Sorcery is not really an issue against MUD and it can give you more punch with a couple of dorks in play.

[Blue Lotus]

I haven't tried either of those. I like Grudge because of the instant speed, and I am already splashing red for a main deck wheel of fortune.

For seeds of innocence, three may be too much. I am only running 13 lands + mox emerald. Getting completely locked out by chalice at one is possible and turn one chalice at one + sphere is gg. You just aren't going to see the lands to cast seeds.

For gleeful sabotage, this seems only great when you are winning. Otherwise just a one for one. To get equal value to grudge, you need 2 untapped creatures and more than that you need four. But if you have four untapped creatures + 2 mana you should just be committing to the board and attacking. Stax can't go over the top and combo out before you. Wasting a turn to blow up 3 perms might just be win more.

These are just my thoughts, but if people have had success with the cards I will try them out.

[JuzamDjinn]

Sorry for Necroing...

How does this list look? (posting for a friend of mine)

4 Llanwar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Viridian Shaman
3 Vengevine
3 Birchlore Rangers
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorm
1 Grapeshot
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Skullclamp
6 Fetch
5 Forest
1 Taiga
4 Gaea's Cradle

Can win with Storm, Emrakul or pure beatdown (Elves, Vengevine, Regal Force)
Has three draws: Skullclamp, Glimpse, Regal
Will play in a field of semi-powered decks and some budget decks...

[xouman]

When I played that list a couple of months ago, I got 1-5, winning 2-1 the only unpowered deck I faced (a custom monoblack deck). I lost the 5 matches 0-2, I got severy punished by great draws from my opponents.

4 blue decks ALWAYS had misstep/fow/drain for my glimpse/skullclamp/regal force, or just played key+vault in a couple of turns. A Mud got over me due to winning the dice and starting with T1 sphere, T2 golem, and second match, even I managed to get priest, 6 elves and skullclamp and having 4 viridian shamans in the deck, I couldn't see any artifact hate card in 19 cards, and I lost.

If I play again the deck, I would play it with vexing susher or xantid swarm in the main (just played 2 xantids in the sb), it was fustrating to rely always on beatdown. I'd prefer viridian shaman over seeds: if Mud player has lots of artifacts, you won't be able to play seeds. Viridian can get over thorn, and then is an elf and creature to help comboing.

Vengevine imho does not rely to this deck, you want go all in to combo, at least for the main. Priest is nuts, you can keep a hand with only 1 forest and a llanowar/fyndhorn if you have a priest in hand, makes comboing in T3 a regular thing (depending on opponent counters of course). Also with priest you don't need 4 cradles.

And emrakul is absolutely key, as you don't have to pass turn. Before playing Grapeshot I'd prefer a living wish, with another creature in the sb to combo. Emrakul is vulnerable to Mindbreak trap, but grapeshot is vulnerable to trap and also to flusterstorm, quite common nowadays (at least in Spain)

[policehq]

It's a tough time for Elves right now because of Mental Misstep.

[Daenyth]

The problem with Xantid is that it's slow as hell and dies to Darkblast, which would likely come in from blue.

[xouman]

Xantid is kind of slow, but it comes out against control decks, slower than elves.

Playing Casting a xantid in T1-T2 gives elves! player a good chance to win all those decks, if it can avoid missteps, fows and even drains. Darkblast is not popular nowadays, fire//ice seems more playable, but I think the real threat are missteps.

Maybe elves would be better with some black as Matt Elias suggested a couple of years ago, unluckily my metagame does not allow proxies and I hadn't bayous when I played elves. Tgz and duresses would surely take most of T1 threats and would make elves a bit slower but far more reliable.

[Blue Lotus]

Mental Misstep absolutely slaughters this deck. Considering every deck can play MM, elves has zero good match ups. It's a shame because this deck is really fun to play (if you enjoy taking 10 minute turns to storm out your whole deck)

[xouman]

Yes, MM is devastating. That's why I advise playing xantids (yes, thay are also countered by MM, but then the path is open for skullclamp/glimpse) and don't forget that this deck can play MM too (not maindecking it if you ask me)

but now, drain decks playing missteps, MUD playing spheres and landstill with so many counters, mandlands, removal... seems not the best moment for elves

[Troy_Costisick]

Yes, MM is devastating. That's why I advise playing xantids (yes, thay are also countered by MM, but then the path is open for skullclamp/glimpse) and don't forget that this deck can play MM too (not maindecking it if you ask me)

but now, drain decks playing missteps, MUD playing spheres and landstill with so many counters, mandlands, removal... seems not the best moment for elves

What about Leyline of Lifeforce and/or Gaea's Herald?

[vaughnbros]

Yes, MM is devastating. That's why I advise playing xantids (yes, thay are also countered by MM, but then the path is open for skullclamp/glimpse) and don't forget that this deck can play MM too (not maindecking it if you ask me)

but now, drain decks playing missteps, MUD playing spheres and landstill with so many counters, mandlands, removal... seems not the best moment for elves

What about Leyline of Lifeforce and/or Gaea's Herald?

They can still counter your draw engines, skullclamp and glimpse, which are probably the most important cards for blue decks to counter anyway.

[Blue Lotus]

Yes, MM is devastating. That's why I advise playing xantids (yes, thay are also countered by MM, but then the path is open for skullclamp/glimpse) and don't forget that this deck can play MM too (not maindecking it if you ask me)

but now, drain decks playing missteps, MUD playing spheres and landstill with so many counters, mandlands, removal... seems not the best moment for elves

If you start jamming things like MM and xantid into your deck you are going to fizzle a lot more. If xantid elf was printed then there would be blood.

[xouman]

While I concede MM is not the best option, Xantid is not dead at all. It works with glimpse and skullclamp, and while it is not an elf by itself, playing with titanias you should have enough mana to go off. Still, I'm not sure if it's better to open with T1-forest, xantid; T2-forest,titania or T1-forest, llanowar; T2-xantid,titania. First option is more safe, while second option allows a good probabilty to go off in T3.

The main reason I'd not advise playing xantid in the main is because people usually won't expect elves and won't make best decissions, and if you don't expect heavy controlling decks.

[TheShop]

Quick thought:  What about sideboarding null rod/revoker and going beatz postboard?

[vaughnbros]

Quick thought:  What about sideboarding null rod/revoker and going beatz postboard?

im not sure mana denial is the answer but sbing into beats against fish and stax definitely seems like a massive improvement.  I think the main issue is blue decks countermagic is more effective against this deck now.