[Deck Discussion] Oath of Druids with Rune-Scarred Demon

[voltron00x]

In my article today, I proposed an untested Oath of Druids deck featuring Rune-Scarred Demon.  The idea is that it is quite easy to abuse the Demon to set up Key/Vault, or failing that, simply Time Walk plus recursion into a win.  

Some examples that came up:  

hand contains one piece, Demon fetches second piece OR recursion for that piece if you flip it first.
hand contains regrowth/will/revival, Demon fetches Walk from deck or yard, Time Walk, 2nd demon repeats, attack for 6, next turn, attack for 12 (18 damage is often enough to win)

Some games, simply getting Force into Force is enough to win by bashing with Demons.  Some games, the deck goes absolutely nuts with Ancestral Recall b/c it can replay it so many times.  It's been a fun deck in the very limited time I've spent.

I'm using Mental Misstep because it protects Oath so well against Duress/Thoughtseize and Nature's Claim, as well as just being a solid card in the limited testing I've done, but could see playing around with the numbers on the Misstep / Thoughtseize package (to possibly include Spell Pierce).  I'm also wondering if Intuition isn't better than Thirst for Knowledge in this deck.  My main concern is whether or not this deck can complete with some of the high-powered Gush decks running around.

If anyone feels like testing this and sharing some thoughts, I'd love to read about your experiences.  

Based on some testing I did, I have a slightly updated list below, to compare to the one in the article (See link)

https://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39834

(original version)

RSD Oath
(updated version - Triple Demon!)

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Creatures
3 Rune-Scarred Demon

Enchantments
4 Oath of Druids

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Noxious Revival
1 Intuition
1 Vampiric Tutor


Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Regrowth
3 Thoughtseize
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Forest
1 Beast Within
1 Tinker

[voltron00x]

Mark Hornung just suggested trying a 3rd Demon.  This seems like a pretty interesting idea!

[H]

The problem with Mental Misstep is how bad it is against Workshops (because it might, at best, have one thing it can hit).  But here it might really be good enough to maindeck, because of Oath's innate power vs the archetype.

How has this tested vs. Shops?

(BTW, i like the 3 Demon idea, it lends itself to a lot more recursive tricks, which it seems to be what this deck wants to do, but might that make Krosan Reclamation better than Noxious Revival?)

[XxtSundaybxX]

The cards that Matt is replacing with misstep(Thoughtseize,spell pierce) are equally as bad in the shops matchup. Spell pierce is the best of the 3 but hardly. And for a little amount of workshops running around the blue matchup is more important. Also like you mentioned oath has always has a decent shops matchup.

[Klep]

If you're actually Oathing, aren't you already winning the game anyway?  Why not just get a dude that wins the game instead of one that helps you put together yet another set of cards that could win the game?

[Anusien]

Blessing seems really poor. It seems like you'd rather have another Noxious Revival and just Will and win. It seems to me that the path is:
1) Resolve Oath.
2) Oath triggers, get RSD, get Time Walk (or Noxious Revival and cast Time Walk)
3) Oath triggers, get RSD, re-cast Walk or get Will and win.

[voltron00x]

If you're actually Oathing, aren't you already winning the game anyway?  Why not just get a dude that wins the game instead of one that helps you put together yet another set of cards that could win the game?

Isn't the challenge figuring out which "dude"?  What set of creatures are you recommending?

[voltron00x]

Blessing seems really poor. It seems like you'd rather have another Noxious Revival and just Will and win. It seems to me that the path is:
1) Resolve Oath.
2) Oath triggers, get RSD, get Time Walk (or Noxious Revival and cast Time Walk)
3) Oath triggers, get RSD, re-cast Walk or get Will and win.

That was the plan originally, but there are times when you're flipping away all the relevant items.  Having Blessing helps ensure the proper pieces are somewhere (deck OR GY) that you can get them. 

Another option is to take out Blessing and try a 3rd Demon, which might be the best way to go.  I used to play 3x Dragons with no Blessing and Will and that was a solid configuration for me ~2 years ago.

[Klep]

If you're actually Oathing, aren't you already winning the game anyway?  Why not just get a dude that wins the game instead of one that helps you put together yet another set of cards that could win the game?

Isn't the challenge figuring out which "dude"?  What set of creatures are you recommending?

Well what's wrong with the creatures like BSC or Emrakul or what have you?  It just strikes me that Oathing up a creature to go find you another card so you can assemble some other way to win is rather Rube Goldbergian. It just seems like if you're going to go through all the trouble to get off an Oath activation, you should be done after that.  If you're going to win in some other fashion, why not just make a deck more specifically geared towards that?

[Delha]

If you're actually Oathing, aren't you already winning the game anyway?  Why not just get a dude that wins the game instead of one that helps you put together yet another set of cards that could win the game?

Isn't the challenge figuring out which "dude"?  What set of creatures are you recommending?

Well what's wrong with the creatures like BSC or Emrakul or what have you?

From my understanding, the payoff is a faster clock. Both BSC and Emrakul require you to pass the turn, whereas this setup is intended to kill them before they get another turn, via multiple Time Walks (or Key/Vault).

[voltron00x]

If you're actually Oathing, aren't you already winning the game anyway?  Why not just get a dude that wins the game instead of one that helps you put together yet another set of cards that could win the game?

Isn't the challenge figuring out which "dude"?  What set of creatures are you recommending?

Well what's wrong with the creatures like BSC or Emrakul or what have you?  It just strikes me that Oathing up a creature to go find you another card so you can assemble some other way to win is rather Rube Goldbergian. It just seems like if you're going to go through all the trouble to get off an Oath activation, you should be done after that.  If you're going to win in some other fashion, why not just make a deck more specifically geared towards that?

Emrakul is more or less the exact same thing; you still have to pass the turn, and get back to your main phase to win the game.  This deck can potentially win on the first Oath activation, isn't really vulnerable to Duplicant or Metamorph, and can get away without running support cards like Dragon Breath (I'd much rather have Regrowth / Noxious Revival than 2 Dragon Breath).

[Commandant]

Lately I have found a single Steel Sabotage main as an answer for Tinker to be very good.

[Klep]

If you're actually Oathing, aren't you already winning the game anyway?  Why not just get a dude that wins the game instead of one that helps you put together yet another set of cards that could win the game?

Isn't the challenge figuring out which "dude"?  What set of creatures are you recommending?

Well what's wrong with the creatures like BSC or Emrakul or what have you?

From my understanding, the payoff is a faster clock. Both BSC and Emrakul require you to pass the turn, whereas this setup is intended to kill them before they get another turn, via multiple Time Walks (or Key/Vault).

So if winning with a big creature isn't good enough, why are you running Oath, which has as its purpose getting out a big creature?  Why not run a deck that is more specifically targeted towards winning the game in one turn?  Are you arguing that Oathing into Rune Scarred Demon is really the best way to assemble Vault/Key or whatever?

[vaughnbros]

If you're actually Oathing, aren't you already winning the game anyway?  Why not just get a dude that wins the game instead of one that helps you put together yet another set of cards that could win the game?

Isn't the challenge figuring out which "dude"?  What set of creatures are you recommending?

Well what's wrong with the creatures like BSC or Emrakul or what have you?

From my understanding, the payoff is a faster clock. Both BSC and Emrakul require you to pass the turn, whereas this setup is intended to kill them before they get another turn, via multiple Time Walks (or Key/Vault).

So if winning with a big creature isn't good enough, why are you running Oath, which has as its purpose getting out a big creature?  Why not run a deck that is more specifically targeted towards winning the game in one turn?  Are you arguing that Oathing into Rune Scarred Demon is really the best way to assemble Vault/Key or whatever?

I agree it seems like grim tutor would be a lot better than this for tutoring since its only 1 more mana than oath and you dont need your opponent to have creatures.  If your going to run oath i really see no reason why you wouldnt be running blightsteel and emrakul with dragon breath which nearly auto wins when you get an oath activation instead of having to worry about what you milled, what you didnt mill, and most of all resolving another spell after oath.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I agree it seems like grim tutor would be a lot better than this for tutoring since its only 1 more mana than oath and you dont need your opponent to have creatures.

Guys, c'mon.  It's both.

You get the ability to hate on creature decks and pump out fatties and you get to play a more aggressive tool to assemble infinite turns.

[voltron00x]

I agree it seems like grim tutor would be a lot better than this for tutoring since its only 1 more mana than oath and you dont need your opponent to have creatures.

Guys, c'mon.  It's both.

You get the ability to hate on creature decks and pump out fatties and you get to play a more aggressive tool to assemble infinite turns.

This.  Thank you. 

Guys, if this idea isn't for you, no problem - I got it.  It's not for you.  You're entitled to think its bad.  Plenty of other ideas that might be more to your liking.

Grim Tutor is nowhere near the power level of what this deck does.  BSC/Emrakul plus Dragon Breath I already discussed, above.  I've played that deck, too; this is about trying something different, not claiming which is better or best. 

Again, this deck is trying to give you the best of both worlds.  You're not going to lose to, say, Chalice 0 like a lot of normal Oath combo decks.  Storm hate isn't an issue.  Ensnaring Bridge can be worked around via infinite turns or just tutoring up removal for it.  Metamorph isn't as much of an issue.  Duplicant isn't as much of an issue.  Etc.

[voltron00x]

As far as, Why use Oath?

Each upkeep, you get to Demonic Tutor, plus get a 6/6 Flyer, and still have your draw step.  If that doesn't seem useful, I'm not sure what to say.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

i've been working on this list since spoiled and i agree with matt. 1 for up keep 6/6 + demon tutor is totally good. however, why play this over tidespout oath? that's the question i keep coming too.

[voltron00x]

i've been working on this list since spoiled and i agree with matt. 1 for up keep 6/6 + demon tutor is totally good. however, why play this over tidespout oath? that's the question i keep coming too.

I just wasn't satisfied with Tyrant Oath in testing, I felt like it was a subpar Gush deck that wasn't as strong vs. Shops as other Oath decks, but also awkward against other Gush decks, so kind of the worst of both worlds rather than the best.  Especially with many blue decks transitioning to Gush over Bob, it didn't seem worthwhile to make that sacrifice.  You also get hit by some of the anti-Gush hate that you'd normally dodge.

[madmanmike25]

I agree with Kleps assessment of Oath.  That being said, that doesn't make this non-viable.  It makes me even wonder if the Eternal Witness Oath decks had any success.  Yes, i realize 2/1 isn't 6/6, but not having to run Blessing seems nicer and plays better with Will.

Another point is that most Oath decks dont need to run a card like Dragon's Breath.  For the record, if you had your creature Dupe'd or Metamorphed, you still have Oath so they dont really have you by the short hairs quite yet.

While the DT and 6/6 beater is good, I think it's a tad lacking in potency when compared to elephant Oath.  But then again, I've lost to Auriok Salvager Oath before....

[voltron00x]

I agree with Kleps assessment of Oath.  That being said, that doesn't make this non-viable.  It makes me even wonder if the Eternal Witness Oath decks had any success.  Yes, i realize 2/1 isn't 6/6, but not having to run Blessing seems nicer and plays better with Will.

Another point is that most Oath decks dont need to run a card like Dragon's Breath.  For the record, if you had your creature Dupe'd or Metamorphed, you still have Oath so they dont really have you by the short hairs quite yet.

While the DT and 6/6 beater is good, I think it's a tad lacking in potency when compared to elephant Oath.  But then again, I've lost to Auriok Salvager Oath before....

You can run this build w/out Gaea's Blessing, with 3 Demons, I believe this is noted earlier in this thread.

Elephant Oath still has the issue of random creatures popping up in the wrong match-ups, which this build never struggles with.  Based on the testing I've done, it's quite nice to have drawn one piece of Key/Vault, resolve Oath, and upkeep tutor into the other to "win" w/out passing the turn, or to execute a similar plan via Time Walk and recursion (especially in the 3-Demon version).  The ability to upkeep tutor in Dredge hate or Shop hate every turn is also pretty cool.

[Stray_Cat]

There was a similar deck that got some top8s here in france, using eternal witness.
See here : http://solomoxen.com/forum/index.php?topic=10889.0

It is true that with rune scarred demon, you can usually kill on the turn you're activating oath, either getting time walk from your grave, or tutoring for it (playing mystical or vampiric at upkeep, or demonic on main phase). Then, you can chain them each turn, while hitting for 6, 12 and 18... Or winning by any other mean.
Well, i totally agree on the concept, using RSD is a good idea.

Nevertheless, I wonder how do you deal with a MUD player with, let's say 2 spheres-like on table ? It is still playable if (an only if) you're able to get time walk in the grave (replaying it for 4), but if you have to tutor for it, it would cost you quite a bit of mana. Instead, a dragon's breath-boosted emrakul could finish the job.

Just wondering how you intend to deal with this specific match-up.
Thanks.

[voltron00x]

There was a similar deck that got some top8s here in france, using eternal witness.
See here : http://solomoxen.com/forum/index.php?topic=10889.0

It is true that with rune scarred demon, you can usually kill on the turn you're activating oath, either getting time walk from your grave, or tutoring for it (playing mystical or vampiric at upkeep, or demonic on main phase). Then, you can chain them each turn, while hitting for 6, 12 and 18... Or winning by any other mean.
Well, i totally agree on the concept, using RSD is a good idea.

Nevertheless, I wonder how do you deal with a MUD player with, let's say 2 spheres-like on table ? It is still playable if (an only if) you're able to get time walk in the grave (replaying it for 4), but if you have to tutor for it, it would cost you quite a bit of mana. Instead, a dragon's breath-boosted emrakul could finish the job.

Just wondering how you intend to deal with this specific match-up.
Thanks.

I think if Shops were really popular, I'd have to invest heavily into the sideboard to win that match-up including probably 1-2 creatures for that match-up.  The idea of chaining Demon's into Hurkyls / Rebuilds or something similar is kind of interesting to me, but you're right, the Demon build as a concept is meant more for opposing blue decks than it is for a Workshop metagame.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think if Shops were really popular, I'd have to invest heavily into the sideboard to win that match-up including probably 1-2 creatures for that match-up.

This is something Oath typically does anyway, right?  Or has your testing shown the matchup as pretty poor?  I would think that workshop would not deal easily with 3x 6/6s.  Especially ones that grab counters/removal/brokeness.  Obviously you still have to stick the Oath, but I don't really imagine this as more difficult than it is for traditional Oath.  Or am I missing something critical here?

[voltron00x]

I think if Shops were really popular, I'd have to invest heavily into the sideboard to win that match-up including probably 1-2 creatures for that match-up.

This is something Oath typically does anyway, right?  Or has your testing shown the matchup as pretty poor?  I would think that workshop would not deal easily with 3x 6/6s.  Especially ones that grab counters/removal/brokeness.  Obviously you still have to stick the Oath, but I don't really imagine this as more difficult than it is for traditional Oath.  Or am I missing something critical here?

I've got a pretty reasonable amount of Workshop hate in the sideboard, but not an overwhelming amount.  I think the Forest / 2 Nature's Claim / Grudge  package or whatever I have listed, between the 60 and 15, is pretty reasonable, honestly.  You'd side out the Missteps for some hate.  

But, I haven't tested it.  I'm not sure about Cat Stax Fever builds (Which should be easier to beat) but full-on control versions like Espresso Stax or even Sam Berse's versions of MUD with lots of Duplicants were a pain for Oath to beat.  A lot of people overstated the strength of Oath against those decks, and I think I'd probably want Terastodon in the board if Shops were really popular, and perhaps more Claims or Sabotages / Hurks in the SB. I view Shops not that differently than I view Dredge, and I want 5-6 solid, dedicated hate cards to beat that deck when it is popular.

[halo295]

Do you like the grudge over running hurkyls or have you found hurkyls not worth running right now??

[Eastman]

I think if Shops were really popular, I'd have to invest heavily into the sideboard to win that match-up including probably 1-2 creatures for that match-up.

This is something Oath typically does anyway, right?  Or has your testing shown the matchup as pretty poor?  I would think that workshop would not deal easily with 3x 6/6s.  Especially ones that grab counters/removal/brokeness.  Obviously you still have to stick the Oath, but I don't really imagine this as more difficult than it is for traditional Oath.  Or am I missing something critical here?

I've got a pretty reasonable amount of Workshop hate in the sideboard, but not an overwhelming amount.  I think the Forest / 2 Nature's Claim / Grudge  package or whatever I have listed, between the 60 and 15, is pretty reasonable, honestly.  You'd side out the Missteps for some hate.  

But, I haven't tested it.  I'm not sure about Cat Stax Fever builds (Which should be easier to beat) but full-on control versions like Espresso Stax or even Sam Berse's versions of MUD with lots of Duplicants were a pain for Oath to beat.  A lot of people overstated the strength of Oath against those decks, and I think I'd probably want Terastodon in the board if Shops were really popular, and perhaps more Claims or Sabotages / Hurks in the SB. I view Shops not that differently than I view Dredge, and I want 5-6 solid, dedicated hate cards to beat that deck when it is popular.

I like grudges a lot for oath against shops, for the obvious reason of their awesomeness in general, plus the chance to flash them back post oath.  I also agree on leaving Hurkyl's out, it isn't really not how oath wants to win.

Anyway I wante to note that Terastadon is kind of lousy against stax now because of Metamorph.  To beat metamorph, you need oath creatures that negates its effect.  If they metamorph a terastadon, they will blow up your oath and two lands, which is had news bears, or elephants as it were.  Plus adding to their attack the next turn is bad news.  I actually think Emrakul is one of the better creatures against metamorph, because they both just die and then you reshuffle the alien to bring him back next turn.  Actually i haven't tested it but come to think of it I would be worried about the shop player getting to tutor off a metamorphed demon.

[wiley]

Anyway I wante to note that Terastadon is kind of lousy against stax now because of Metamorph.  To beat metamorph, you need oath creatures that negates its effect.

What about Stormtide Leviathan?  If they metamorph it you can race (plus you get to oath up another) since nothing else besides a hellkite will be able to attack (and hopefully you've brought in grudges for things like that).  It also give you a better target for oath in the dredge matchup.

[Eastman]

Anyway I wante to note that Terastadon is kind of lousy against stax now because of Metamorph.  To beat metamorph, you need oath creatures that negates its effect.

What about Stormtide Leviathan?  If they metamorph it you can race (plus you get to oath up another) since nothing else besides a hellkite will be able to attack (and hopefully you've brought in grudges for things like that).  It also give you a better target for oath in the dredge matchup.

Stormtide is alright in that role, although isn't blazing archon better, since then they can't attack with anything?  Then next turn you oath again, hopefully dumping grudge in the yard, and then grudge their archon and win.

[wiley]

I would go with stormtide just because it is at least a turn faster, 2 turns faster if they've taken 4 damage (2 metamorphs or a cat and a morph, or even ancient tomb damage).  The larger rear end could also come up if they have triskelions in the deck (trike + morph/welder kills archon and could easily allow them to swing for the win since barring an early oath we would most likely be within lethal range from an early offensive).

/overused argument about pitching to force too.

Both would probably work in the majority of situations though, so they both deserve some testing.