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Author Topic: Proportionate Response  (Read 2068 times)
DubDub
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« on: July 28, 2011, 10:04:01 am »

With the advent of Mental Misstep, Dispell, and Flusterstorm, it's time to bring back complicated stack warfare to Vintage.  I think this card would seal the deal.

Initial version:

Proportionate Response -  {U}
Instant
Search your library for a blue instant card that could target target spell, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.  Then shuffle your library.
"I know just the thing for that." - Jace

Current version:

Proportionate Response -  {U}
Instant
Search your library for an instant card that could target target spell you don't control, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.  Then shuffle your library.
"I know just the thing for that." - Jace


Does this make one-of Commandeers playable?  Stealing a Jace with a tutored for Commandeer would be epic.  Or maybe it provides fuel to the stack fire, by fetching Missteps, Flusterstorms, Mindbreak Traps and Force of Wills on both sides of the table.  Plus Dispel and Spell Pierce and Steel Sabotage.  It doesn't fetch anything broken (depending on your opinion of whether countermagic is broken), but it does fetch another copy of itself, which is kinda cool.  It does also fetch, ahem, the Powerspell card I've proposed also in this forum (providing that you're targeting an instant or sorcery spell, as Powerspell says currently).
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 01:40:22 pm by DubDub » Logged

Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
Wagner
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2011, 12:22:30 pm »

I think you could remove the blue only clause. Other colors don't have enough cards that target spells for this to be dangerous and it would be fun to be able to go get a Shunt, a Dash Hopes, a Withering Bloom or an Illumination Smile

Beats me what green could go look for Sad

I think that chaining them is too cheap tought, it create a lot of storm count with no real drawback or card investment. This alone warrants an increase in mana cost or a clause to not be able to do that. At any rate actually I think this is too polyvalent for a 1CC card.
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Delha
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2011, 01:14:34 pm »

Agreed that this would probably be ridic in storm combo. 4x PR and a couple Pact of Negation feels pretty nuts.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
DubDub
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2011, 01:40:01 pm »

I think you could remove the blue only clause. Other colors don't have enough cards that target spells for this to be dangerous and it would be fun to be able to go get a Shunt, a Dash Hopes, a Withering Bloom or an Illumination Smile

Beats me what green could go look for Sad

I think that chaining them is too cheap tought, it create a lot of storm count with no real drawback or card investment. This alone warrants an increase in mana cost or a clause to not be able to do that. At any rate actually I think this is too polyvalent for a 1CC card.

Green (mono-green) can search for Lifelace....  Yep, taking off the blue restriction seems fine.  I had initially modeled it on Merchant Scroll, but it's okay to change it since it'll usually grab a blue thing anyway.  Re: Storm count, I'm pretty sure Repeal/Gitaxian Probe is an enormously better option for that, it doesn't always chain directly into other copies of Repeal/Probe, but it's free, and in Repeal's case you get 2x storm per cast.  Both Repeal and GProbe can be recast after Will, whereas with PR casts from the grave can't loop into other PR's (assuming they're all in your Graveyard).

Is it the best enabler for Pyromancer's Ascension since Intuition?  Yes.  But I don't think it's outrageously broken in Storm combo just as a storm builder.

Agreed that this would probably be ridic in storm combo. 4x PR and a couple Pact of Negation feels pretty nuts.
This is a good point.  It may be too good, but I'm not 100% sold.  I think Silence/Chant compete with this, while being slightly more compact (speaking of Legacy 5-color Storm decks).  The key is PR's flexibility, because you can grab Pact of Negation when you need to, or Force of Will when you're not just cleaning up the endgame.

So, how about a couple of additions:
- "could target target spell you don't control"  Your opponent has to do something in order for PR to have a valid target.  That seems very consistent with the name of the spell, since most wizards (speaking flavorfully here, since I realize within Magic the game (take my proposed Powerspell as an example) it's often a valid tactic) won't want to interfere with their own magic.  I'm going to tentatively make this change, let me know if you disagree.
- "Until end of turn, you may not cast spells named Proportionate Response."  Which still allows for casting multiples in response to one another if they're already in your hand, but doesn't let you turn a single one into a chain.  I'm not going to make this addition at the moment, is this a decent enough solution to the chain-issue (provided there is a chain-issue), or is there a more elegant one I'm overlooking?

Changed the color requirement of the search above.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
Delha
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2011, 03:12:20 pm »

Agreed that this would probably be ridic in storm combo. 4x PR and a couple Pact of Negation feels pretty nuts.
This is a good point.  It may be too good, but I'm not 100% sold.  I think Silence/Chant compete with this, while being slightly more compact (speaking of Legacy 5-color Storm decks).  The key is PR's flexibility, because you can grab Pact of Negation when you need to, or Force of Will when you're not just cleaning up the endgame.
You pretty much summed it up here. Paying {1} {U} {U} {U} is pretty terrible for a cantripping counter, or cantripping Boomerang, or cantripping Deluge. Being able to mix and match as needed made Cryptic Command insane.

So, how about a couple of additions:
- "could target target spell you don't control"  Your opponent has to do something in order for PR to have a valid target.  That seems very consistent with the name of the spell, since most wizards (speaking flavorfully here, since I realize within Magic the game (take my proposed Powerspell as an example) it's often a valid tactic) won't want to interfere with their own magic.  I'm going to tentatively make this change, let me know if you disagree.
- "Until end of turn, you may not cast spells named Proportionate Response."  Which still allows for casting multiples in response to one another if they're already in your hand, but doesn't let you turn a single one into a chain.  I'm not going to make this addition at the moment, is this a decent enough solution to the chain-issue (provided there is a chain-issue), or is there a more elegant one I'm overlooking?
I like the first one, definitely agree that it upholds flavor and is much cleaner than the second.

Minor suggestion: How about "Appropriate Response" or "Proper Response" for the name? If you want to keep with the tradition of counterspells being verbs, you could cut it down to "Respond". I realize this technically isn't a counterspell, but it's certainly in the same vein.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
DubDub
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2011, 03:34:07 pm »

Minor suggestion: How about "Appropriate Response" or "Proper Response" for the name? If you want to keep with the tradition of counterspells being verbs, you could cut it down to "Respond". I realize this technically isn't a counterspell, but it's certainly in the same vein.
Is there an issue with 'Proportionate Response'?  I think it's fine unless that's too long to fit on a card or something.  I mean, Guttural Response is extremely similar in name, seems fine to me.

With the aim of making the response actually be proportionate, how about this version:

Proportionate Response -  {U}
Instant
Search your library for an instant card that could target target spell you don't control and has the same converted mana cost as that spell, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.  Then shuffle your library.
"I know just the thing for that." - Jace

That may be among the most complicated targeting restrictions ever, but it would line up directly with the name.  You cast Ancestral Recall (or, Aether Vial), I PR to get Mental Misstep (Divert, Spell Pierce, Divert, Flusterstorm, Steel Sabotage), you cast Bob, I PR to get Mana Drain, you cast Tezzeret 1.0 (or, more likely, Force of Will), I PR to get Force of Will.  You cast Karn Liberated, I PR to get Commandeer (still awesome!).

I don't know, that would probably make it Vintage unplayable, while furthering the prevalence of Mental Misstep in Legacy.  "and has greater or equal CMC as that spell" would make it more playable, since you'll always* be able to grab Force of Will, but does it ruin the 'Proportionate' part of the name?  I guess I was trying to work around the PR->Pact of Negation for Combo, but I don't want to remove the potential for value in PR->Steel Sabotage against Shops.

*Yawgmoth's Bargain, Steel Hellkite not withstanding.

A more transparent way of removing PR->Pact of Negation would be "and has non-zero converted mana cost".
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
Delha
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2011, 05:06:16 pm »

No specific complaints about the name, just thought I'd throw out my suggestions.

I don't think the latest changes you've proposed are necessary.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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