Organic Formats - the success of Modern

[ELD]

When I look at formats that succeed, I notice a common theme.  Formats that are successfully embraced by players are always formats the community would have created independently. 

Legacy is a perfect example of this.  It's a format where you can use literally any Magic card you own - except a very small list of banned cards.  I've seen firsthand this format's origin at card shops over the years.  Of course, the banned list is always different, but I have played at many stores that didn't even know what the DCI was.  They play with any cards they can get, and the group decided on a select few cards to ban.  The number of banned cards from shop to shop might vary wildly, but the idea was to create a playing field that was diverse.  Play with all the cards you own, but if something gets too out of hand, it's ban time.  Some stores would ban cards they found annoying, like Force of Will.  One store I played at had only one banned card - Fireball.  The point is, these Legacy like formats were created independently, and I believe Legacy thrives because it shares that trait.  Even without a DCI, people would play formats very similar to Legacy.

Limited falls into the same category.  People have always played with the random contents of their sealed product.  From Sealed Deck, to the new Minimaster format, people like the idea that no one is coming to the table with a huge advantage due to a huge collection.  It's just whatever we both open.  There are also limited formats like draft that require even more skill, and those happen organically too.  In fact, you see people coming up with variants on drafting on their own.  Again, even without a DCI people would play these formats.  It's no surprise that people embrace the limited formats that the DCI encourages. 

Vintage also happens organically, but slightly less so than Legacy.  While the natural response to cards being too broken is to ban them, in Vintage we restrict.  This is an idea that would not happen at the same frequency as an outright ban, but it would happen.  At it's heart though, it's a format where you can play with all your cards, and nothing is more likely to occur naturally than that.  People want to play with the cards they own.  At the very least, they don't want to be told they can't play with them.  Vintage fills this role, and to that degree, I see it being around as long as people are playing Magic. 

Standard is another organically created format, though the lines on allowed cards gets blurred.  You see playgroups that only play with recent cards, but this is often due to card accessibility.  Cards only from the last two years is something that tends to happen when all the players have only been playing for a couple years.  Often, Standard players move on to other formats, or quit outright, when the block they started playing in rotates.  Losing the ability to play with a huge chunk of your collection is a tough pill to swallow.  Rotations are not something I've seen happen on their own.  It's a contrived thing that can be confusing and it's results are not always positive.  That said, there are always new people who want to play with just the new sets their familiar with. 

Commander is exactly what I'm talking about.  An Eternal format that players created, being embraced by the community and growing tremendously.  All the key elements of success. 

Extended and Block are formats that don't occur naturally.  Don't get me wrong, Extended was organic when it first started.  It was a variant of the Legacy concept.  Revised Dual Lands, Ice Ages forward, it was basically just banning old cards due to being hard to find while avoiding power level problems.  No Arabian Nights, no Legends, No Antiquities or Power - it was accessible and it was eternal.  Play groups did come up with similar formats to the original Extended, in some areas it was any cards after The Dark.  Once they started to manage Extended by rotating blocks, it started to fail.  Play groups would not independently come up with something so contrived as an arbitrary number of sets, rotation schedules etc...   Both of these formats contrived and players must be bribed into playing them. 

It seems to me that Wizards is ice skating uphill when they try and promote formats that wouldn't occur naturally.  Block and Extended have received an unbelievable amount of push, and they just don't get over with the players.  I don't see any amount of push making it happen.  Formats like Commander, on the other-hand, literally happened from playgroups.  These are formats that succeed, and when Wizards puts any energy into them, I expect them to reach tremendous heights.

All of this comes down to discussion on the new Modern format.  Will Modern prove to be a contrived format, one that people are not looking for?  Is it solving the question of "how do we continue to play with our cards?"  Will the pool of cards be deep enough to allow powerful plays, along with answers to those plays?  Will the banned list be able to keep the format in check?  There are a lot of things that need to go right for Modern to work, and a few things going wrong could have players moving on to other formats very quickly. 

On the one hand, it reminds me of the Old Extended, which used to be quite popular.  Drawing a line in the sand, only allowing cards that are not too old due to accessibility, is an idea that has worked well in the past.  It's an Eternal Format, which is also a very natural concept.  I believe the format can succeed if they manage the banned list well.  Adding another Eternal format gives players just another way to play.  The question is what would players rather play with?  Will players prefer to play with the most powerful spells in the game, in formats like Vintage and Legacy?  Will they choose to play in a format that is filled with cards that do not maintain their value?  Do they want to play in a format that is less expensive?  How does one measure expense?  Is it cheaper to buy a deck for 2K that is likely to go up in value, or to buy a deck for 1K that will definitely go down in value?  The players will answer all these questions, and I look forward to seeing it all play out. 

[honestabe]

To be fair, "Overextended" which was a base-line of sorts for modern was a completely community driven format.  Gavin Verhey got over 100 people every week on mtgo to enter his self run tournaments via only word of mouth.  All WoTC really did was make it easier for players to know what cards were available (to be honest, I don't even know the formats order pre-mirrodin, and I even get some post-mirrodin ones confused).

The poll the did on the mothership was 5:1 in favor of Modern, and TCGplayer.com already has announced Modern side events to fire at their tournaments.  I definitely think Modern has what it takes to finally be an eternal format accepted and supported by Wizards of the Coast.  Does it suck that they've limited the growth of Legacy and Vintage via the reserved list?  Yeah.  Do they regret it?  Yeah.  But considering the circumstances they've put themselves in, I think WoTC has made a few good decisions on this front.

As far as prices go, they said they want it to be a format that they can support via reprints.  How much does something have to cost for them to reprint it?  Well that's up to them.  In an interview for "I came to game" Richard Garfeild said that the most he feels a tournament level card should cost is $20; any more than that is bad for the game, so maybe they'll use that as a baseline.  I definitely expect them to try and keep the cost of card lower rather than higher for the time being, as a way to convince more people to try their new format.  Starcitygames.com has Dark Confidant at $50, Tarmogoyf at $70, and Jace sold out at $80 all due to legacy and EDH, I expect a reprinting or banning of these cards.  For anyone that has a bunch of these, now's the time to sell.  Modern hasn't even been officially announced yet, and the Ravnica shocklands are all starting to rise, the blue ones sold out on SCG at $25.  I also expect to see these in M13; they kept the Guild names off them for a reason.

Regarding the banned list, I'm surprised they didn't use the old extended format as a guideline.  Dark Depths and Sword of the Meek are fine to keep banned, as they really kept the extended format stale.  I want to see Hypergensis banned, and am 100% confident it will be.  Any deck that can make an Emrakul on turn 1 needs to be banned when there isn't a Force of Will in the format.  I'm pretty sure Chrome Mox can come off; it wasn't even that good in Extended and it would make AIR a deck.  I wouldn't mind Glimpse of Nature getting the Axe either, but probably only if Elves is still really dominant after the format is out for a while.  I like the affinity lands getting banned, that deck won a friggen legacy SCG.  Lastly, Jitte needs to come off.  It was only really played in Faeries and sometimes zoo.  Stoneforge needs to be banned.  Right now, any deck that isn't hypergenesis or Teachings is just worse without a Stoneforge.  The best decks right how are Zoo w/ Stoneforge, Cawblade, Faeries w/ Stoneforge, Esper Stoneforge/Bitterblossom, and UWr Superfriends w/ Stoneforge.  Something needs to be done about that...

All and all, WoTC has the potential to make something great out of Modern.  The community support is there, it's just up to them to not fuck it up.


Side Question:  Will TMDers play Modern?  It's an eternal format, and a good chunk of cards from Legacy/Vintage are available.  Just curious

[Norm4eva]

Stoneforge needs to be banned.  Right now, any deck that isn't hypergenesis or Teachings is just worse without a Stoneforge.  The best decks right how are Zoo w/ Stoneforge, Cawblade, Faeries w/ Stoneforge, Esper Stoneforge/Bitterblossom, and UWr Superfriends w/ Stoneforge.  Something needs to be done about that...

It might be my unnatural love of all things White Weenie(which SFM enables better than most other cards), but in fairness, most of those decks were already playing White

There's plenty of times when SFM just does not matter.  Even the neutered Merfolk deck is still capable of Misstepping your turn 1 play, churning out a bunch of Lords via Aether Vial and then just not caring what you tutor for as it swings around your threats with a Blue Man Group.

I don't think that SFM will prove to be a long-term issue in Modern; it's widely played now, sure, but when Legacy first happened Belcher got played a ton too, and who cares about that guy anymore?  If Legacy Belcher were going away to college tomorrow, nobody would help it move.  It's not worse than Tarmogoyf, and lord knows Goyf has an affinity for jumping into decklists as the requisite 'cheap win condition'.

[ELD]

Has Wizards made any mention of how they might inflate the card supply?  Obviously letting people purchase cards at $20 direct from Wizards would collapse card prices immediately, but I doubt Wizards would shift their model like that.  Cards that go up in price are often degenerate, so they don't make the best candidates for reprints in core/block sets.  Fighting against market forces is about as unnatural as you can get. 

[H]

Cards that go up in price are often degenerate, so they don't make the best candidates for reprints in core/block sets.  Fighting against market forces is about as unnatural as you can get. 

Well, in the current (and soon to be future) Standard, i don't know that something like 'goyf is really all that degenerate.  For example, if 'goyf got reprinted in Innistrad, considering the flashback mechanic making a come back and the rotation of fetches, would he really be all that amazing?  Sure, he'd probably be a 4/5 at best most of the time in that environment, but a 4/5 that does nothing upon coming into play.  There is a plethora of good cheap removal that makes even relative cost effective beaters not all that dominant in Standard.  Who even plays Baneslayer anymore?  It's all about Titans and getting value even if they kill your creature.

Of course, that doesn't mean they will reprint it.  I am just saying, there are Standard environments that can allow even relative high level eternal playables to reprinted (in theory).

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya ELD,

Those are some well written posts.  I've been playing Modern on Cockatrice for a couple weeks now.  12-post and Hypergenesis are really the only two good decks that don't run SFM.  I agree with you that she should be banned.  Of course, I think Hypergen will be banned too just based of the Community Cup results. 

As for people wanting to play a format where prices on their cards go up and down a lot, I think the price variance will less than you might think if Modern becomes a PTQ format.  If the pro's have to play this format, the prices will remain within a stable range of price variance.  The real question will become if Wizards wants to put $50 dual lands into a core set.

But instead of the Shock duals being in the next core set, I think it might be the allied fetch lands.  Here's Thom's quote from the Modern Proposal article:

For now, the lack of allied-color fetch lands would be one of the format's idiosyncrasies. There would be others that we would discover over time, and that's okay too.

To me, and maybe I'm reading too much into it, he's saying that the lack of allied fetches will be a temporary thing in Modern.  If they want to get the mana bases in Modern straightened out as fast as possible, then printing allied Fetches in M13 makes more sense to me.  But anyway, that's all really speculative and there's no way to know until it happens.

I do think that the community will embrace Modern eventually.  Remember, it took Legacy a while to get its feet under it.  Several cards had to be banned.  I imagine the same will be true for Modern.  But in the long run, a format with plentiful supply, reasonable prices, and a deep card pool will be too alluring for players to resist.  ESPECIALLY, if it becomes a PTQ format (which all the rumors say it will).

Peace,

-Troy

[ELD]

I'm not saying people do or do not want to play a format with fluctuations in their card values.  I'm asking what long term player response would be to a format where Wizards devalues cards by reprinting as a rule.  This would be to keep them at "affordable" pricing, which is just an arbitrary line in the sand.  I believe the main reason people play Magic in droves over other CCG's or games like Dominion, is the secondary market, and cards having resale value.  As a player, if you know your cards are going to lose value, do you hold onto them when not in use?  If the answer to this is no, then a spiral effect the devalues cards even further takes place.  Players will sell their cards when they take a break from the game, flooding the market further, and devaluing the cards even more.  This leads to move players bailing, some with the intention to buy when prices bottom out.  It's important to note that with cardboard, there is no bottom.  Other CCG's have an effective value of less than zero, as the demand far outweights the supply, and one has to use resources just to dispose of them. 

[DubDub]

The values of old Extended cards used to rise and fall drastically based on whether Extended was 'in season' or not.  Tarmogoyf's flirtation with $100 was based on an Extended season.  Now, people didn't really like old Extended, so maybe changes in card value was part of that.

[oneofchaos]

I just don't see how banning money cards makes any sense.  I agree it sucks to have to pony up 200 bucks for a playset of bob's.  However I played some standard without owning big jace, just baby jace.  People need to either stop wasting their money on random boosters and just save up for staples they know they will use OR they need to play a deck they can afford.

Sorry if I am bitter, but coming off somebody who has been playing since invasion I know I feel a sense of pride when I unlock the ability to play a new deck.  I like that my cards retain value.  Wizards is doing the right thing with the reserve list.  Having a format with a high barrier of entry but guaranteed appreciation of the value of your deck is good.  A format that rotates yearly is also good.  If only eternal or standard existed, the game would have died.  However, having both a format you can invest in and a format you keep up with is great for the game as people can choose to spend their money how they please. 


I wish everybody owned a playset of every card so everyone could play what they wanted.  I'm sorry we can't all play the same deck, but if we did it would just be lame and stale.

[LotusHead]

Block and Extended have received an unbelievable amount of push, and they just don't get over with the players.

I used to build Block decks to go along with "block season" as I was grewing aware of it (Mirroden/Kamigawa time), and during Ravnica Block, they decided to NOT have Block Season (I guess due to having 2 headed giant or something on their protours/GrandPrix).

It was really kind of stunning, as I appreciated the beauty of a block deck (mine was Legend of the 5 Hondens, which later mutated into an Enduring Ideal/Warp World deck).

I don't see block getting a huge amount of push except at some pro tour once a year.

I agree that under extended is a worthless endeavor.

I will make a Modern Deck (and pauper).  I like formats, especially eternalish formats.

[Eastman]

I don't understand how you are defining "organically developed" formats.  It seems really subjective to me, sort or like saying " successful formats are the ones that people like.".  Well, yah, but what of it?

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm not saying people do or do not want to play a format with fluctuations in their card values.  I'm asking what long term player response would be to a format where Wizards devalues cards by reprinting as a rule.  This would be to keep them at "affordable" pricing, which is just an arbitrary line in the sand.  I believe the main reason people play Magic in droves over other CCG's or games like Dominion, is the secondary market, and cards having resale value.  As a player, if you know your cards are going to lose value, do you hold onto them when not in use?  If the answer to this is no, then a spiral effect the devalues cards even further takes place.  Players will sell their cards when they take a break from the game, flooding the market further, and devaluing the cards even more.  This leads to move players bailing, some with the intention to buy when prices bottom out.  It's important to note that with cardboard, there is no bottom.  Other CCG's have an effective value of less than zero, as the demand far outweights the supply, and one has to use resources just to dispose of them. 

Well.  Do people like playing Standard?  Do they like playing online on MTGO?  Card values constantly go up and down in Standard and online, but people still play them. 

[Norm4eva]

There's as many clunkers on both sides of the fence as there are successes; probably more fails.  I mean shoot - When's the last time you actually played Rainbow Stairwell, or Emperor, or Archenemy?  Maybe the latter more recently since, didn't it just get a bunch of product printed a few months back?

But whatever, the game seems to be living in Standard, Draft and Commander right now.  Formats people like, and their point of origin isn't really the issue, sort of like Eastman says.

Maybe I'd like to offer a different take on the subject and say that Modern's success will not be for reasons 'organic' but rather, if it succeeds it will be a direct result of WotC's ability to keep certain promises.  It's an Eternal format; 8th Ed came out in mid 2003 so we're looking at 8 years of Magic.  Compared to maintaining B/R lists for Vintage/Legacy, that format will be a cakewalk - for now.  Its format staples saw much higher print runs than the other Eternals and so availability is much higher - for now.  Modern's inception is supposed to be able to tackle all of these issues, and at least today it does (to an extent.  OMFG $150 for a playset of Hallowed Fountains - and no allied fetches).  And inasmuch as new players will want to find a home for their cards once Standard rotates - and therefore Modern will always have that notorious group of players who hit the 20-month mark as Magic players and go "Okay, I dunno if I want to keep up with Standard this year - now what?" - there are a LOT of people who are excited about this new format because it's supposed to tackle issues of supply/demand, inattentiveness from WotC (both in the form of relevant cards being printed and B/R lists looking shamefully out of touch), and cost of buying into an Eternal format. 

So I don't think Modern's success will be the same kind of success than a format like EDH enjoys, where the players invent a sweet variant of the game and Wizards goes, "Ok sure, we'll invest time and product into that."  Rather, this will totally depend on Wizards being willing to go, "We said we're going to create a format that doesn't offer the same monetary hurdles as these guys over here, and this is what we're willing to do to ensure that it stays that way," and keeping fast to that commitment will, I believe, attract the players.

[ELD]

I'm not talking about prices fluctuating at all.  I'm talking about prices declining, such as Birds of Paradise, due to inflation of the card supply.  The question remains - what will the player response be to declining card values?  How will Wizards inflate the card supply to lower prices?  We all know people dump their cards when they're going to go down due to rotations.  It will be interesting to see how people feel about holding their $50 Dark Confidants when they know they may become $20 cards before the next time they get sleeved up.  How does everyone think Wizards will actually accomplish the goal of inflating the card supply and devaluing the cards? 

I don't understand how you are defining "organically developed" formats.  It seems really subjective to me, sort or like saying " successful formats are the ones that people like.".  Well, yah, but what of it?

I thought I was explained pretty clearly, but I'm saying a format has organic roots if it is actually created independently, and from multiple points of origin.  Contrast Legacy or Minimaster with Planechase or the new Extended. 

I'm saying that formats that involve convoluted rules, rotations and other elements respond less to effort than formats that people actually intuitively grasp.  Compare Archenemy to Commander for example.  One is a random format created by a creative team at Wizards, the other is a continuation of the Highlander formats played for over a decade.  One sits on shelves, no one really cares about it.  The other is a huge hit. 

[Norm4eva]

I'm not talking about prices fluctuating at all.  I'm talking about prices declining, such as Birds of Paradise, due to inflation of the card supply.  The question remains - what will the player response be to declining card values?  How will Wizards inflate the card supply to lower prices?  We all know people dump their cards when they're going to go down due to rotations.  It will be interesting to see how people feel about holding their $50 Dark Confidants when they know they may become $20 cards before the next time they get sleeved up.  How does everyone think Wizards will actually accomplish the goal of inflating the card supply and devaluing the cards? 

....

I thought I was explained pretty clearly, but I'm saying a format has organic roots if it is actually created independently, and from multiple points of origin.  Contrast Legacy or Minimaster with Planechase or the new Extended. 

I'm saying that formats that involve convoluted rules, rotations and other elements respond less to effort than formats that people actually intuitively grasp.  Compare Archenemy to Commander for example.  One is a random format created by a creative team at Wizards, the other is a continuation of the Highlander formats played for over a decade.  One sits on shelves, no one really cares about it.  The other is a huge hit. 

FWIW, it took Birds of Paradise for-fuck-ever to not be like a $12 card in Standard.  The Ravnica printing saw the first noteworthy decline but Noble Hierarch cemented it; I would postulate that if it weren't for Hierarch, BoP probably would have rebounded quite a bit by now.

As to the question, how will they do it, I'm almost positive that the answer is a regular series of 'staple' reprints in the Core Sets.  One year we'll see fetchlands.  Next year, duals.  Year after, a relevant creature cycle.  Even if that doesn't happen, they'll put out FTVs and Duel Decks with good cards, at the least.

What the players choose to do is up to them, I guess.  Some people really value the money aspect of the game and expect to get out more than they put in.  Some people don't.  For my money I can't think of too many other hobbies which Magic is supposed to compare to favorably that actually appreciate in a measurable way.  I do know that when cards like Jace or Goyf or whatever_relevant_card hit more than like $20, a nonminority number of players piss and moan and the guys at Wizards who aren't sitting in a room counting their money sort of wring their hands and go, "Well, we knew that card was good, but didn't think it was $50+ good.  Oops."  There's enough well traveled quotes from mtg.com which bemoan the prices of format staples and I won't quote them again, and even if that aspect of it is just a show for the kiddies, at least the sentiment being generated from the guys in charge of the game is one where they seem to protest the big dollar signs attached to cards.

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm not talking about prices fluctuating at all.  I'm talking about prices declining, such as Birds of Paradise, due to inflation of the card supply.  The question remains - what will the player response be to declining card values?  How will Wizards inflate the card supply to lower prices?  We all know people dump their cards when they're going to go down due to rotations.  It will be interesting to see how people feel about holding their $50 Dark Confidants when they know they may become $20 cards before the next time they get sleeved up.  How does everyone think Wizards will actually accomplish the goal of inflating the card supply and devaluing the cards? 

AH, ok.  I gotchya now.  BoP was a good example.  I guess prices all depend on WotC's reprint strategy, right?  The question we need to ask then is this: "How often will WotC want the Ravnica Duals, Vesuva, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Arcbound Ravager, Aether Vial, and Bitterblossom to be in Standard?"  In the case of the Ravnica Duals, it can't be that often.  They are so much better than any other dual land (other than the Alphas) that they squeeze out all kinds of design space.  They'll probably get one or two printings every 5-10 years.  As a result, I think their prices will dip, then slowly rise again.  Vesuva, Dark Confidant, and Tarmogoyf are the types of cards that might only get reprinted in a Standard set once, if ever.  They're more likely to show up in a Dual Deck, Premium Deck, or From the Vault product.  If that's the case, we've see from cards in the past like Tezzeret, KotR, and Grim Lavamancer, that the reprint makes a few dollars dent in the card price then stablizes it.  Aether Vial has been reprinted and its prices rose afterwards, then fell when Mental Misstep was printed.  So we can see that a low print run of one of these cards matters way less than playability.  Finally, cards like Arcbound Ravager and Bitterblossom will have a hard time finding their way back into Standard legal sets thanks to their block-specific mechanics.  So their prices are likely to be stable and perhaps climb over time.

The thing is, I don't see the Rav Duals taking the place of the M10 duals long-term in core sets.  I don't see powerhouse cards like Goyf and Bob showing up often, if at all in Standard sets.  And I don't see cards with block-flavor being reprinted outside of something really weird like a Premium deck or Duel Deck.  We can throw Commander products out since RnD was very stern that they didn't want to put expensive cards in those kinds of products for dealers to take advantage of.

In the end, I don't see your concern materializing in the way it has for BoP.  Maybe more like Crucible of Worlds or Razormane Masticore?

[2nd_lawl]

there is no such thing as an "organic" format.  All formats are created by humans and are equally arbitrary.

[Troy_Costisick]

there is no such thing as an "organic" format.  All formats are created by humans and are equally arbitrary.

Ugh, don't get bogged down into semantics.  I understand exactly where ELD is coming from.

[Norm4eva]

there is no such thing as an "organic" format.  All formats are created by humans and are equally arbitrary.

[Troy_Costisick]

Anyway, to answer one of your questions, ELD.  I plan on playing Modern and have for a long time.  I started buying Shocklands back in '09 and have pretty much finished up the entire land base for Modern.  By the time it's officiall sanctioned, I should have three to five decks + sideboards ready to go.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

havent read any of this thread but pt philly just got changed to modern

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/155a

[honestabe]

I give it a month.  You can't just ban all the good cards because they're good...

Like, goyf is easily 2-3x as good as Ancestral Vision, but they ban vision because its blue?   



.....yeah they had a really good thing going, and they banned the shit out of it

[ELD]

This falls into the range of ideas I was trying to express.  There's a natural tendency in Eternal formats to be able to play with as many cards as possible.  Look at how much people want cards taken off the restricted/banned lists in Vintage/Legacy.  With a large enough card pool, players find ways to handle powerful strategies.  The idea that, "if a card gets too good, it's just going to get banned," creates all sorts of havoc in people's willingness to invest in a format.

As I mentioned earlier, it will be interesting to see how people feel about investing in a format where they are guaranteed to lose value?  If reprints and bannings are the plan, the result is lowered values of cards.  I personally would rather invest 2K in a deck that is likely to go up, compared to spending 1K on something that is almost guaranteed to go down.  I don't look at buying Eternal staples as consumption.  I buy cards, but they more or less maintain value, and I can trade them later.  Buying cards for a format like Modern may end up like buying booster packs.  You get utility out of them, but that utility is consumed, and a large part of the value you paid for is gone.  You get to play in the tournaments, but you pay for the privilege due to decreasing value of the cards you hold onto in order to play. 

[honestabe]

If they didn't completely obliterate the format, I still would have willingly bought into it knowing that the cards I paid money for were likely to be reprinted and lose value sometime down the road.  Magic to me is a hobby, not an investment.  I have made some money due to rising prices of eternal staples, and if I see an opportunity to play the market to make a quick buck or two, sure, I'll go for it, but that's not the reason I play.