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Author Topic: Phyrexian Metamorph and Eldrazi and/or Spine of Ish Sah  (Read 4077 times)
LotusHead
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« on: August 11, 2011, 01:58:55 am »

1) If I have Spine of Ish Sah in play, and a Phyrexiam Metamorph of Spine of Ish Sah, and I sacrifice the Metamorph Spine to Throne of Geth, do I get to put metamorph back in my hand after it hits grave?

2) If my opponent has a legendary Eldrazi in play (Say, Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn), and I resolve a MEtamorph copying it, both die to to legendary rule.  Do I get to shuffle my graveyard into my library?

A local judge told me yes to #1 and no to #2.  But this seems incorrect to me. I think it's yes on both. 
Thank you in advance.

Quote
Oracle Text: Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one.
Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
Quote
Oracle Text: When Spine of Ish Sah enters the battlefield, destroy target permanent.
When Spine of Ish Sah is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, return Spine of Ish Sah to its owner's hand.
Quote
Oracle Text: (u/p can be paid with either U or 2 life.)
You may have Phyrexian Metamorph enter the battlefield as a copy of any artifact or creature on the battlefield, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types.
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Anusien
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 10:53:12 am »

The judge was correct.

Quote
If a Clone of Emrakul dies, it's not shuffled. If a Clone of Blighsteel Colossus dies, it is shuffled.

There is no "from anywhere" ability. It's part of the description of an event, which is then treated differently by triggered abilities and by static abilities creating a replacement effect.

Emrakul has a triggered ability, because it uses the phrasing "When [condition], do [action]." Normally, you check the state of the game
just after the event to see which triggered abilities have triggered. A notable exception do this is abilities that trigger when an object
goes to the graveyard from the battelfield (or, equivalently, when a creature dies): these check the game's state just before the event to
see what triggered. Abilities that trigger "when ~ is put into a graveyard _from anywhere_" are explicitly excluded from this exception
and work like regular triggered abilities: you check the game's state just after the event to see what triggered. Here, after the event,
there is a Clone in the graveyard which doesn't have any triggered abilities, so nothing triggers.

Blightsteel Colossus has a static ability creating a replacement effect, because it uses the phrasing "If ~ would [event], [action]
instead." Replacement effects work differently from triggered abilities: the replacement effect has to exist before the event it
replaces would occur. If the event would happen, a modified event happens instead. Therefore, you have to look at the game's state just
before the event would occur to see what actually happens. Here, just before Clone would be put into the graveyard, it's copying Blightsteel
Colossus, so it has the ability creating the replacement effect. The event [Clone is put into the graveyard] is replaced by [reveal Clone
and shuffle it into its owner's library].

Daniel Kitachewsky
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LotusHead
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 10:29:54 pm »

Thanks for the detailed example/ruling.

So for Metamorph of Spine of Ish Sah, it is the "goes to graveyard from the battlefield" part that makes it's triggered ability follow the metamorph to the grave and allow it to come back to my hand? (which is what makes this different than Emrakul's trigger, which doesn't specifically say "from the battlefield?" 

"From the Battlefield" or "From specific zone" allows trigger to follow the zone change, but "from anywhere" the copy effects/trigger wont follow?
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Delha
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 11:44:07 am »

So for Metamorph of Spine of Ish Sah, it is the "goes to graveyard from the battlefield" part that makes it's triggered ability follow the metamorph to the grave and allow it to come back to my hand? (which is what makes this different than Emrakul's trigger, which doesn't specifically say "from the battlefield?"
Yep.

"From the Battlefield" or "From specific zone" allows trigger to follow the zone change, but "from anywhere" the copy effects/trigger wont follow?
I don't believe the scenario originally presented can occur with any zone other than the battlefield. To the best of my memory, no card exists which maintains copied attributes outside of the battlefield. By extension, that means any other relevant zone change trigger will actually be printed on the card itself.

To answer your question on a broader scale though, I believe you are misinterpreting the ruling. Battlefield -> Grave is the exception, in that the trigger type looks back the zone of origin. By default, other triggers (including "from anywhere") check the destination instead. This is why Yixlid Jailer stops Narcomoeba. I've included some relevant rulings from Jailer below. The first bullet covers Spine, the second covers Emrakul, and the third describes another outside case where the origin would be checked.
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  • 5/1/2007: If an ability triggers when the object that has it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, that ability triggers from the battlefield (such as Deadwood Treefolk or Epochrasite, for example), they won't be affected by Yixlid Jailer.
  • 5/1/2007: If an ability triggers when the object that has it is put into a graveyard from anywhere other than the battlefield, that ability triggers from the graveyard, (such as Krosan Tusker, Narcomoeba, or Quagnoth, for example). Yixlid Jailer will prevent those abilities from triggering at all.
  • 5/1/2007: If an ability triggers when the object that has it is put into a hidden zone from a graveyard, that ability triggers from the graveyard, (such as Golgari Brownscale), Yixlid Jailer will prevent that ability from triggering.
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Much like humanity itself.
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