MaximumCDawg
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« on: August 12, 2011, 10:38:45 am » |
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So, this week, I’m going to be trying out an aggro deck featuring Anima, Soul of Elements and Edric, Spymaster of Trent. The concept goes like this: early game, roll out cheap evasive beats while keeping a lid on things using countermagic/rod/revoker. Midgame, either land a Spymaster and start profiting from your early beats. Late game, land Anima, pump him up, and go nuts.
I thought about putting Aluren in here, but I don’t think it actually does anything. Sure, it goes infinite with Anima, but it costs 4 and by that time this deck typically has dumped its hand in goldfishing. Similarly, Cloudstone Curio is hilarious with Cloud of Faeries and either Anima or Glimpse, but that’s a three-card come with no easy way to assemble. I think the Curio combo wants to live a deck with Kobolds and Skullclamps; different from what I’m trying to do.
Creatures (26)
4x Shrieking Drake (Drake recycles Spellstutter Sprites, resets Revokers, pumps Anima for U, and draws a card for U off Glimpse. He’s good at every stage of the game except the one where you have no creatures in play.)
4x Spellstutter Sprite 4x Cloud of Faeries (Good to pump Spellstutter Sprite and, since it’s free, great for Glimpse and Anima.)
3x Phyrexian Revoker (Much-needed disruption for a deck with a lot of cards that do not disrupt. He gets the nod over Tin-Street Hooligan because Revoker is potentially free off Anima, and Tin-Street is useless with Anima - once Tin-Street costs R you can’t spend G to cast it!)
2x Edric, Spymaster of Trent (I think I might end up switching the numbers of Edrics and Animas because, when he sticks, he’s great. I regularly goldfished to two creatures in play going into t3, usually Faeries and Sprite or Revoker, and so Edric draws you two cards immediately. He’s a house.)
3x Anima, Soul of Elements (Protection from Swords to Plowshares! In goldfishing, he came down t4 usually and was attacking for 4 or 5 on t5 pretty consistently.)
3x Simian Spirit Guide 3x Elvish Spirit Guide (Acceleration that doubles as cheap beats once Anima is online. I’d run full playsets except that the deck really needs blue sources, not more R and G)
Spells (15)
4x Force of Will 2x Flusterstorm (The more I use this, the more I like it over Spell Pierce. RandomAggro.dec is not super concerned with opponents casting artifacts, other than Shops. Yea, the blue deck player can just topdeck vault-key, but far more often he has to tutor it up. The things I worry about when Im playing aggro are Tinker, Yawgwill, and Ancestral Recall. This hits them all early and is very difficult to counter back. Plus, people arn’t really attuned to expect it yet.)
3x Curfew (Great tinkerbot insurance. Parity is broken with Spellstutter Sprite or bodies to feed Anima.)
2x Glimpse of Nature (Seems like a great idea, but sucks in early game. Unlike in Elves!, Glimpse is not just an Ancestral Recall here because you just don’t have the mana to fuel a big Glimpse early. As a two-of, the idea is you’ll usually draw into it in the late game when you need more gas. Ideally you find a Shrieking Drake, or bounce one from the board with Curfew, and draw 3 - 5 cards.)
4x Null Rod (Other than Tinkerbots, Vault-Key or Painter-Stone must be stopped at all costs. Also one half of the anti-Power 9. Wondering about Chalice. At 0 on the play it is great, of course, but at any other number it really hurts this deck.)
1x Mox Emerald (Only one I own.)
Land (20)
3x Misty Rainforest 3x Scalding Tarn 2x Tropical Island 2x Volcanic Island 1x Tiaga 1x Mountain 1x Forest 5x Island 2x City of Brass
SB (15)
4x Lightning Bolt (Anti-aggro. I usually see suiblack, goblins, etc running around) 3x Red Elemental Blast 2x Trygon Predator 2x Ingot Chewer 4x Root Maze (Anti-Gush and anti-TPS, which is making a comeback locally)
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Delha
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 02:35:01 pm » |
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The build you have together looks more like aggro control than straight up aggro (which I consider to be a good thing, since more traditional aggro probably won't get the job done in Vintage). A few cards I was wondering if you'd tested: Vendilion Clique: I realize it's pricier than your other dudes, but the power is indisputable. Also, ups your count for Spellstutter. Too bad he isn't  . Brass Herald: Makes your little dudes actually hit and loads more into hand. Adaptive Automaton is a cheaper alternative, but w/out the CA. Also plays nice with Glimpse once you have Animar down. Phyrexian Metamorph or Phantasmal Image: I'd lean more toward Image, but from what I recall, your meta is a lot more casual than typical competitive Vintage, and the vulnerability is more likely to come into play. Duplicant: I'd probably only try out a couple of these, since they're pricey until you land Animar. Aside from that, how have the Spirit Guides been working out? At first glance, I'd have thought they don't do enough, but your testing should show better than a hypothetical. How often do they just sit in hand pointlessly?
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 03:14:53 pm » |
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Aside from that, how have the Spirit Guides been working out? At first glance, I'd have thought they don't do enough, but your testing should show better than a hypothetical. How often do they just sit in hand pointlessly?
I've only been goldfishing, but Spirit Guides appear to be a necessary evil. Basically, they ensure I have mana for a Spellstutter Sprite on turn 1, which means I'm very likely to have either a flusterstorm or a sprite up to interfere with the enemy's broken turn 1 plays. I completely agree about Vendidilion Clique. I've been looking for ways to make space for them. If Glimpse doesn't do enough, that's probably where they will go. But, then again, that makes my 3-slot really greedy, which I think is probably a bad idea. I don't like Duplicant. Part of the challenge in making Anima work is finding creatures that work well on their own, but are enhanced by him, or vice verca. I feel like Duplicant would be dead until I "combo out," which doesn't feel strong. I dont even know if this aggro-build is actually the way to do this. Aluren + Drake alone gives you infinite storm, so perhaps the way to build Anmia is to focus on that interaction more strongly.
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 03:19:08 pm by MaximumCDawg »
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Delha
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 05:05:16 pm » |
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I'm not seeing how the Guides help early control. If you've got nothing but an Island on the board, Sprite isn't going to counter anything that costs 2+. Flusterstorm only costs  in the first place, having extra colorless shouldn't be necessary (and the same goes for FOW). Clique: I'd probably suggest trying Clique in place of Edric. Seeing extra cards obviously means drawing into protection, but Clique disrupts immediately. Hopefully this clears the way for Animar next turn, who I'd assume you typically don't have mana to cast and protect in the same turn anyway. Duplicant: Agreed that he's pricey until Animar gets going. That said, do you feel that once you've started ramping, you'll have the game locked up? As it stands, your decks seems to make Animar into a Sapphire Medallion glued to a Quirion Dryad. It doesn't feel like you're really using the cost reduction, which is why I suggested Herald/Automaton as well as Duplicant. If you can't come up with a way to really abuse his ability, then it's probably time to question if he's worth running at all. I know it's rough, but sometimes you have to kill your darlings. Alluren: If you're going to build an Alluren deck, you might as well go full combo (and not run Animar). When Alluren is on the table, he's pointless. A friend of mine used to run Raven Familiar + Cavern Harpy to dig through his deck until hitting Soul Warden for infi life, and Maggot Carrier for the win. It wouldn't surprise me if there's better kills floating around out there.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 06:40:52 pm » |
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As it stands, your decks seems to make Animar into a Sapphire Medallion glued to a Quirion Dryad. It doesn't feel like you're really using the cost reduction, which is why I suggested Herald/Automaton as well as Duplicant.
Still, you raise a very good point: are there better cards to abuse with Animar? Well, creatures with X in the casting cost scale pretty well and get bigger as time goes on. Problem is, the X creatures are pretty bad. All hydras and shifting wall and crap. How about multikicker? Nope, all colored mana. What about regular ol' kicker? Well, Anavolver is pretty nice once Anima is going, but a War Mammoth otherwise. Pouncing Wurm is similar but worse since it has no evasion. Ana Battlemage seems pretty hot - discard 3 for GU - but suggests moving into Black for the second ability. Ditto Thornscape, whose ability is good but suggests going into White. Cetavolver is in the right colors and is WGU 5/5 first strike trample... but thats actually not much better than Anima himself at that point. Kavu Titan is either a grizzley bear or a 4/4 for GG, neither of which is exciting. And then there's the interesting choices: Emblazoned Golem. He's an unimpressive 1/2 for 2 normally... but he DOES come down before Edric, which he likes, and but he comes out either free or really big off a ramped Anima. Can you think of any other casting costs to look into for ol' Anima? Something that can work early game so it doesn't just sit there dead, but gets better with him out?
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Guli
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 06:09:25 am » |
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How to get Anima quick enough into play to get value out of him by casting creatures in order to cast cheaper creatures? While doing this, you need to make sure the creatures you cast have at least  in their mana cost. And they have to be highly disruptive to make this work AND they need to be supported by free counter spells. You can use FoW And/Or Mental Misstep And/Or Daze. Why not run 1 drops like Gorilla Shaman, Cursecatcher and then use Ninja to bounce them to pump your Anima? Waterfront Bouncer sounds like the correct choice with an Anima deck as a Tinker/Aggro solution. Gogo Hunting Moa! Gogo Man-o'-War!
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Guli
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2011, 08:56:47 am » |
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As it stands, your decks seems to make Animar into a Sapphire Medallion glued to a Quirion Dryad. It doesn't feel like you're really using the cost reduction, which is why I suggested Herald/Automaton as well as Duplicant.
Still, you raise a very good point: are there better cards to abuse with Animar? Well, creatures with X in the casting cost scale pretty well and get bigger as time goes on. Problem is, the X creatures are pretty bad. All hydras and shifting wall and crap. How about multikicker? Nope, all colored mana. What about regular ol' kicker? Well, Anavolver is pretty nice once Anima is going, but a War Mammoth otherwise. Pouncing Wurm is similar but worse since it has no evasion. Ana Battlemage seems pretty hot - discard 3 for GU - but suggests moving into Black for the second ability. Ditto Thornscape, whose ability is good but suggests going into White. Cetavolver is in the right colors and is WGU 5/5 first strike trample... but thats actually not much better than Anima himself at that point. Kavu Titan is either a grizzley bear or a 4/4 for GG, neither of which is exciting. And then there's the interesting choices: Emblazoned Golem. He's an unimpressive 1/2 for 2 normally... but he DOES come down before Edric, which he likes, and but he comes out either free or really big off a ramped Anima. Can you think of any other casting costs to look into for ol' Anima? Something that can work early game so it doesn't just sit there dead, but gets better with him out? Man-o'-War is actually a good card with Animar I have been funtesting a deck with Animar =) Ingot is also good! Here is my modest attempt: 3 Tropical Island 3 Misty Rainforest 1 Mox Emerald 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Walk 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Black Lotus 4 Animar, Soul of Elements 4 Ninja of the Deep Hours 4 Gorilla Shaman 3 Null Rod 4 Force of Will 1 Mox Ruby 3 Volcanic Island 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 2 Scalding Tarn 1 Island 4 Lightning Bolt 1 Forest 1 Mountain 4 Cursecatcher 3 Man-o'-War 1 Brainstorm 4 Ingot Chewer
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« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 09:02:19 am by Guli »
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2011, 10:16:23 pm » |
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I have also concluded that Ingot Chewer is bonkers. Im still on the fence about whether to run a Spellstutter Sprite package, or the Cursecatcher package you suggest.
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Delha
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 02:16:23 pm » |
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I think the way to most heavily abuse Animar is to treat him like a cheaper Mycosynth Golem. Combined with Herald/Automaton as previously suggested, it doesn't take long before all your dudes are free. The downside is that cuts out your Fae control package. If you're willing to make this just a for-fun kind of deck, I'd honestly take that path. Fortunately, your meta seems to support that kind of play over focus on more traditionally competitive decks. Using your idea for Emblazoned Golem... CORE Animar Worldy Tutor GOLEMS Emblazoned Golem Soultether Golem Lodestone Golem  Solemn Simulacrum? Adaptive Automaton (technically not a golem, I know) Brass Golem Sundering Titan? Kuldotha Forgemaster? OTHER Master of Etherium? Memnite? Straw Golem? Maul Splicer/Wing Splicer? Thoughtcast? With this list I'd imagine filling in the slots with some utility and control pieces, just enough to keep you in the game while you find and resolve Animar. From there you should be consistently dropping bigger and bigger dudes for just a couple mana apiece. I wouldn't take this anywhere serious, but could totally see myself screwing around with it casually. As an amusing side note, getting hit by Hurkyl's actually helps you rather than hindering you. Rebuild against a Shop opponent would be outright hilarious.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 12:59:45 pm » |
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The biggest problem with the build you're suggesting - and yes, I did futz with high CC creatures early on - is that, when so many of your creatures cost 3 - 5 mana, it's hard to get Anima charged up. Remember, he doesn't do anything until you've cast alot of creatures. That's why Shrieking Drake and Cloud of Faeries are so critical, for better or for worse - I can reliably pump anima. Secondarily, they are early evasive creatures that come down before Edric does, which helps me with card draw too. I don't think it would work, even casually, to run a deck full of 2 - 5 drops because the deck wouldn't be any fun until Anima is online.
Some other relevant creatures:
Esperzoa gives you one creature spell per turn, easy cost, and gets nearly free very fast. Problem is, deck would need more artifacts to keep it around otherwise.
Glitterfang doesn't benefit from Anima, is terrible on its own, and only bounces once per turn... strictly inferior to Shrieking Drake here.
Fleetfoot Panther, Silver Drake, Lava Zombie, and, moreso, Horned Kavu and Sparkcaster are interesting. Some require a stronger committment to small creatures in red or green or white; perhaps Gorilla Shaman or Noble Heirarch. Kavu doesn't get better with Anima, but he helps pump him, and a 3/3 for 2 is not awful.
Sawtooth Loon is interesting, but sooo expensive for a 2/2 flier + Sift. After Anima has a few counters, however, sifting for UW is pretty attractive. it also plays nicely with Fae.
Tradewind Rider is interesting. Works well with lots of little creatures, as does Edric, plays well off Anima, and does terrible things to opponents once it gets rolling. I'm concerned he's not very good in Vintage, since people can easily resolve multiple threats in a turn. Little Venser might be better for this cost.
Imaginary Pet is essentially a wall against Fish decks for awhile... meh.
Even without going Aluren, though, there might be other abuses for being able to replay creatures repeatedly. Equillibrium loves repeat creature play, and it's on-color. Aura Shards requires reaching into White, but then you also get access to Kor Skyfisher (and maybe Dust Elemental?). Carnival of Souls requires going into black, giving you access to Cavern Harpy. The overarching problem with all of these is you still need 3 mana to cast the relevant enchantment and then LATER be able to go off.
Right now, my goldfishing is confirming the obvious weakeness; great, you've landed a small beater and you can counter one spell, but if the opponent tinkers with backup, you're toast.
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Guli
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2011, 02:48:49 am » |
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Man-O'-War is the best bounce guy you can get with Animar. You need something that can bounce back Tinker bots and Oath monsters while also able to bounce itself. When Animar has 2 counters every blue mana you have will get you a +1+1 counter if you start the Man-O'-War cycle. With Aluren this would mean infinite counters. That being said you need some kind of protection againt chain of vapor, echoing truth and in a short window Lightning Bolt. Isn't there a cheap creature that gives protection to another creature by bouncing itself back? It would be nice to have a deck that works on its own and at the same time is build in such a way that it strives when Animar is in play. We have to avoid making the deck too reliant on Animar. That is why I tried to fit it in U/R fish. Maybe it can forge a new archetype I don't know  Maybe it is far fetched but Soratami Rainshaper with Dryad Arbor seems also a nice little synergy. Bounty of the Hunt should also be considered (works with Dryad) to pump Animar.
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 03:17:06 am by Guli »
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 10:27:56 am » |
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Oh man, I totally forgot about Dryad Arbor when I was looking at the Sotorami! Good call. That would lend more weight to using a Green Sun's Zenith package, too. Lets you run a singleton Anima since you can fetch it out. Not bad.
I looked at Man'o'War (and the crappy M11 remake) but I thought they were too expensive. But, now that you mention it, it does hit Blightsteel, which is huge. It does not totally replace Curfew, since alot of people are still running Inkwell Leviathan. I think Man'o'War competes with Shrieking Drake for the "pump Anima for U" slot. However, they have pluses and minuses:
Drake: Costs U always (recycle fae, turn glimpse into Braingeyeser) Flies (very useful with Edric)
Man'o'War: Bigger Answers Blightsteel
I'm torn.
But I did just realize something else as I'm typing this: Glimpse sucks in this deck. If I'm not running Aluren, and relying on it's interaction with Drake, it's basically a crappier Braingeyser (UGX, discard a card: draw X cards). Holy hell that's terrible! OUT IT GOES.
Incorporating all your thoughts, how does this look:
Anima, Soul of Aggro (2.0)
Creatures (22)
3x Man’o’War 4x Noble Heirarch 2x Vendilion Clique 2x Ingot Chewer 4x Gorrilla Shaman 3x Phyrexian Revoker 2x Edric, Spymaster of Trent 2x Anima, Soul of Elements
Spells (19)
4x Force of Will 2x Flusterstorm 3x Mental Misstep 3x Curfew 2x Green Sun’s Zenith 4x Null Rod 1x Mox Emerald
Land (20)
3x Misty Rainforest 3x Scalding Tarn 2x Tropical Island 2x Volcanic Island 1x Tiaga 1x Mountain 1x Forest 5x Island 2x City of Brass
SB (15)
4x Lightning Bolt (Anti-aggro. I usually see suiblack, goblins, etc running around) 3x Red Elemental Blast 2x Trygon Predator 2x Ingot Chewer 4x Root Maze
P.S.: Kudos to anyone who can figure out how to make Guided Passage work in this deck. I sure can't.
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 10:36:46 am by MaximumCDawg »
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DubDub
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« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2011, 10:40:54 am » |
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Oh man, I totally forgot about Dryad Arbor when I was looking at the Sotorami! Good call. That would lend more weight to using a Green Sun's Zenith package, too. Lets you run a singleton Anima since you can fetch it out. Not bad.
...
how does this look:
2x Anima, Soul of Elements
2x Green Sun’s Zenith
Land (20)
3x Misty Rainforest 3x Scalding Tarn 2x Tropical Island 2x Volcanic Island 1x Tiaga 1x Mountain 1x Forest 5x Island 2x City of Brass
Dryad Arbor, forgotten again.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 10:48:17 am » |
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Dryad Arbor, forgotten again.
Nah, I thought about it, but I still don't think Arbor is worth it. The Sotorami interaction is cute, but they suck. so. hard. by themselves, I just don't think its worth it.
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Delha
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« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 12:49:54 pm » |
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Right now, my goldfishing is confirming the obvious weakeness; great, you've landed a small beater and you can counter one spell, but if the opponent tinkers with backup, you're toast. I assume you're talking about your version with Fae? One of the big benefits of the Golem version (or indeed any truly aggro oriented version) is that you'll have bigger dudes to throw in front of the Blightsteel Bus. It's also entirely possible you'll have enough power on the table to just Alpha Strike through for the win (or at least enough that you'd be able to win a race via chump/backswing). The biggest problem with the build you're suggesting - and yes, I did futz with high CC creatures early on - is that, when so many of your creatures cost 3 - 5 mana, it's hard to get Anima charged up. Remember, he doesn't do anything until you've cast alot of creatures. That's why Shrieking Drake and Cloud of Faeries are so critical, for better or for worse - I can reliably pump anima. Memnite and Straw Golem were suggested as potential low cost ramping for Animar, though I wouldn't recommend diluting the deck too much that way. Also, I want to know what your intended role is for Anima. Is your end goal to ramp into a fat creature or to get massive cost reduction? As previously stated, my complaint about your Fae list is that you seem to be focusing on the former. When you're not taking advantage of the second ability, Animar is pretty much strictly inferior to running Dryad and draw spells. He costs more, has a higher color requirement, and relies on a much narrower range of card type. I don't think it would work, even casually, to run a deck full of 2 - 5 drops because the deck wouldn't be any fun until Anima is online. That's why my suggested core is Animar and tutors, not just Animar alone. If you want this deck to be about him, you really need to make it revolve around him. If not, you really need to look at how your deck plays, ask yourself what it's trying to do, then ask if Animar really belongs in it. I've had the same problem while building Ertai decks over the years, and I honestly feel Animar is probably going to have the same problem. It's not a card you can easily resolve in the first couple turns, and once you start tuning the deck to work well before he hits the board, it becomes questionable whether or not you needed him in the first place. In the case of Animar, his problem is that he's an enabler, and not inherently powerful. From there you have to split your list between cards that ramp him and cards that really take advantage of him after he's been ramped. I think that running a lot of colorless creatures is the best balance you're going to find. Some other relevant creatures: ... All of those creatures suck. I really don't get how they're "relevant". None of them compare to Shrieking Drake when ramping, and none of them truly abuse the cost reduction. @ Guli: Man-o-War sounds like a pretty slick add, and I'd imagine it fits well in most builds. Dryad Arbor does not trigger Animar. When did they revert Bounty of the Hunt? Last I remember was the idiotic Coldsnap version. MaximumCDawg, latest list: Seems worse than your version. You cut control elements, weakened your draw engine, run more expensive creatures, and your gains from ramping Animar past 2 counters are still practically nonexistent. Could you explain why you made the changes you did?
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2011, 03:23:32 pm » |
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Sure. Here are the big changes:
OUT: Glimpse of Nature IN: Green Sun's Zenith
Glimpse, upon further reflection, is crappy in this deck. Even when you have Drake, you're basically casting: "GUX: Discard a card and draw X cards." That's worse than Braingeyeser! GSZ, on the other hand, grabs Anima or Edric. Might be a good idea to put in a maindeck Trygon / Pridemage or something else to leverage GSZ' power further.
OUT: Spellstutter Sprite, Cloud of Faeries IN: Gorilla Shaman, Ingot Chewer, Vendillion Clique, Mental Misstep
Cloud suffers from the "do-nothing" problem. It makes a free 1/1, which is great, but unless you've got business to follow it does nothing by itself. Shaman and Chewer are also early game creatures, but they have as powerful board effect immediately. Without Cloud, Spellstutter Sprite realistically only counters 1 drops, and Mental Misstep is just better at this. Clique comes in as a good 3-drop that helps with disruption and can help finish the game.
OUT: Spirit Guides IN: Noble Hierarch
Without Sprite, the need to generate an additional 1 mana on turn 1 is lessened. Noble accellerates arguably better than Spirit Guides do, and helps pump Anima more easily in a pinch.
OUT: Shireking Drake IN: Man'o'War
Guli convinced me. Drake helps reload Sprite and pump Anima, but at the end of the day it's just a 1/1. Man'o'War is just as effective as pumping Anima once you get 2 counters on it, but can also be used offensively to gain tempo against Fish or stop a tinkerbot. He's what Stingscourger should be (damn you "creature you control" clause!).
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Delha
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2011, 06:23:01 pm » |
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Looking over the rationale you've provided, I really am inclined to look back at my prior question: What's your primary gameplan for the deck? Notably: How highly do you prioritize disrupting the opponent? How highly do you prioritize ramping Animar as opposed to "comboing" with him?
No matter what direction you're trying to take, it feels to me like some of your latest card choices run counter to that, but I think it's best if I clarify what exactly your goal is before talking further.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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DubDub
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2011, 03:59:15 pm » |
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What about making it a hybrid Food Chain deck? I'm thinking Mulldrifters, Kozileks and other Eldrazi, plus Food Chain and Animar. Bear with me here, Food Chain and Mulldrifter ~ approximates Fastbond and Gush. Two cards and two mana without the lifeloss, with the restriction that the mana can only be spent on creatures. Obviously the powerlevel is much lower, and there's  needed to get started instead of  and two lands..., but it's not a bad interaction, and they sort of work with Animar too. That puts you in  , so maybe Bloodbraid Elf (cascades into either mana producer, Chain or Animar) and the new Sphinx that Fact or Fictions deserve a look. Sorry, this is sort of just sounding like my Riku EDH deck. Also, Jin-Gitaxias and Myojin of Seeing Winds to make it use even more EDH cards. It sounds like a fun idea for a tier 3+ Legacy deck too.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2011, 11:32:24 pm » |
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So I actually sleeved this up and played tonight. I ran a version that was something of a hybrid of the two I've proposed in this thread, but was still running the Fae package and 3 Shrieking Drakes. Here's what went down. Also had three Fire // Ice.
MATCH - UW parfait-style featuring scepter-chant lock - WIN 2-0
Game 1 - He nuts out on the first turn with Silence imprinted on a scepter, but not enough mana to activate it on my turn. I have one turn, which I use to play Null Rod. He has no answer and I pile on the beats. It was especially fun to finish him using the Shrieking Drake / Anima combo!
Game 2 - Once again, first turn Null Rod puts him out of the game. Ultimately not satisfying. The fact I won off a single card both times meant I could have been playing basically anything.
MATCH 2 - Black Aggro - LOSS 1-2
Game 1 - He goes for wasteland early, but can't draw more land. I do, and take over the game with flying creatures and Anima. I forget, until the situation comes up, that Anima is pro-black! Nice.
Game 2 - I have to mull to five to find lands, and it is a slow crappy hand. I hold off a hypnotic specter using Curfew, but then get torn apart before I can assemble anything.
Game 3 - Things are going smoothly (countering early threats, deploying monsters) until he uses Gatekeeper to nail my Anima. From there, he keeps the tempo up with creature removal and beats me down.
MATCH 3 - TPS (half powered) WIN 2-1
Game 1 - We quibble a bit over a Null Rod and a Revoker, and eventually he goes off for lethal like TPS does.
Game 2 - I board out my Curfews and other stuff in favor of Red Blasts and Root Maze. I manage to stick a Rod and keep him off mana, and eventually find myself drawing Spellstutter Sprite after Spellstutter Sprite. I run out one Sprite, figuring that two is a good number, and beat in the air while holding back the others for protection. Then he reminds me why I should ramp them to the three by casting Tinker for Inkwell Leviathan. Not. Expecting. That. Luckily, by quickly deploying all four Sprites, I race him to death one turn before Inky would hit home.
Game 3 - In come the Curfews again. It turns out he anticipated this and boarded out the Leviathan again, but I don't think I had a choice. I counter some early hijinks with Flusterstorm and manage to stick a Null Rod and a Root Maze. He is unhappy about this. I commence beats. He makes his move, but at the wrong time. After I declare attacks, he Rebuilds (getting rid of Null Rod and a Revoker that was attacking) and bounces my Root Maze. Doing this in my attack phase did save him two life... but it also allowed me to play a Mox Emerald and Root Maze second main. This shut down his window to go for it, and he scooped.
MATCH 4 - (Bomberman+Tendrils+Stasis+Underworld Dreams) WIN 2-1
Game 1 - So he plays some dual lands and artifact mana and then casts Vedalken Mastermind. I enthusiastically predict stasis, and proceed to stall by curfewing the dude twice while I build mana and look for relevant plays. By the time he gets to cast his Stasis, I'm ready with countermagic. He never really catches up with the tempo and gets beat down while he's still looking for a win. Edric was critical here, allowing me to instantly translate my air superiority into choking countermagic.
Game 2 - Again, I board out curfew and he boards in an Inkwell. This time, though, I can't race it. He has also landed underworld dreams, which whittles me down into death range. During this game, I spy a Auriok Salvager and Tendrils in his graveyard. I am officially now wondering what the hell.
Game 3 - A good game, with three strong pushes by my enemy and three good answers by me. First turn, he lands three moxen into a wheel of fortune. Before he can capitalize, however, I run out a first turn Null Rod with Force backup to punish his greedy start. He manages to deal with the Rod at some point.
A few turns later he Mystical Tutors a Force, broadcasting to me that he has a win condition he wants to protect. I wait behind my own countermagic and eventually he shows it to me - Lotus comes out. I think for a minute, notice his yard is crap (one fetch and a M.Tutor basically) and decide I'm not really worried about Will. Good call; he sacs Lotus and casts Salvagers. We trade Forces and he resolves, but in response to the first Salvager acitvation I have the curfew to cut it off. Next turn, before he gets to do it again, I resolve another Null Rod.
I get some threats out while he can't find an answer for Rod. He does manage to tinker, for Blightsteel this time, but I have a curfew to send him packing. My Edric-fueled fae finish him off.
CONCLUSIONS
Edric is better than Anima. Yeah, duh, I know. Anima's interactions were nice, and I'm not done playing him, but what really sealed up games was Edric coming down after a few faeries and quickly drawing me into more protection. I still intend to substitute Man-o-War for drake, since I think it's just better at what it does. I had kept in some Simian Spirit Guides, and that was a GOOD idea; being able to Null Rod on the first turn won three games! I think I'll tweak this list and try it again next week.
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« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 11:37:16 pm by MaximumCDawg »
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Delha
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2011, 12:06:43 pm » |
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Mind posting the build you ran with?
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2011, 01:52:01 pm » |
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It was basically this. I might be off by a card or so.
Creatures (25)
3x Shrieking Drake 4x Phyrexian Revoker 4x Cloud of Faeries 4x Spellstutter Sprite 3x Simian Spirit Guide 3x Animar, Soul of Elements 2x Edric, Spymaster of Trent 2x Ingot Chewer
Artifacts (5)
4x Null Rod 1x Mox Emerald
Spells (12)
4x Force of Will 2x Flusterstorm 3x Curfew 3x Fire // Ice
Lands (18)
4x Scalding Tarn 2x Misty Rainforest 2x Tropical Island + Breeding Pool 2x Volcanic Island 1x Tiaga 2x City of Brass 3x Island 1x Forest 1x Mountain
Sideboard (15)
4x Root Maze 2x Pyroblast 1x Red Elemental Blast 3x Trygon Predator 1x Scavenging Ooze 4x Propoganda
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Guli
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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2011, 02:42:17 am » |
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Maybe you should keep drake and add Manowar. You could add Tin street in addition to Ingot just to get more value out if it with Drake and Manowar.
And a bunch of creatures that do something when entering the battlefield. Since drake is not targeted, I would run Gilded Drake. Tinker would never be a problem versus this deck with Shrieking Drake, Manowar, Gilded Drake, and ways to bounce. Some clones seem also nice with 'enters the battlefield' triggers.
I would split all these cards I mentioned. The correct formula will show in playtesting.
3x Animar 3x Edric (my play testing has shown that 3x is the correct number)
3x Shrieking Drake 2x Manowar 2x Waterfront Bouncer
2x Ingot 3x Tin street Hooligan 2x Gilded Drake 3x Phantasmal Image
Then I would say the match up against creature decks (including Workshop) looks strong. Tinker is also answered nicely in the main deck.
I would play Lightning Bolt over Fire/Ice because of 2 cards: Jace and Lodestone Golem. You could also go 4x Flusterstorm to strengthen the match up versus control/combo.
Regards, Guli
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Joblin Velder
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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2011, 12:42:04 pm » |
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Hooligan is not a combo with Anima.
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Team Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday: I will pee all over myself then we'll see who will end up looking bad.
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Guli
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« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2011, 01:46:40 pm » |
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Hooligan is not a combo with Anima.
- If there is a sphere effect it is - Hooligan gives Anima a counter - The ETB effect is good with bouncers
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2011, 10:14:46 pm » |
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Hooligan is not a combo with Anima.
- If there is a sphere effect it is - Hooligan gives Anima a counter - The ETB effect is good with bouncers It isn't just that Hooligan doesn't "combo" with Animar. Animar actively TURNS OFF Hooligan. Yes, perhaps you board it in against shops. But, as its currently put together, good luck surviving long enough to land Animar and pump him against shops. I like Ingot Chewer better for this because it's cheaper - which is key - and when Animar is going, it's a bigger creature. I think Chewer does everything you want out of Hooligan but better.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2011, 11:48:35 pm » |
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Okay, so I modified the deck a little bit and managed to win this week's vintage tourny. The organizer even came up with a great name for the deck: "Null RUG!" (Riff on the current legacy hotness, NO RUG, if you don't get it.) Here's what I ran:
Spells
4 Force of Will 3 Lightning Bolt 3 Curfew 2 Flusterstorm
Creatures
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trent 3 Animar, Soul of Elements 3 Ingot Chewer 3 Simian Spirit Guide 3 Man o War 4 Cloud of Faeries 3 Phyrexian Revoker 4 Spellstutter Sprite
Artifacts
1 Mox Emerald 4 Null Rod
Lands
2 Island 2 City of Brass 2 Volcanic Island 1 Tropical Island 1 Tiaga 3 Misty Rainforest 3 Scalding Tarn 1 Mountain 1 Strip Mine 1 Forest 1 Breeding Pool
4 Root Maze 2 Trygon Predator 4 Propaganda 2 Tormod's Crypt 1 Red Elemental Blast 2 Pyroblast
As you can see, the biggest shift was using bolts instead of Fire and Ice, and Man o War instead of Shrieking Drake.
MATCH 1 - Versus Blue Deck (probably a Tezz variant) - WIN 2-0
Game 1 - Great game! I start off with a turn 1 Null Rod off a Spirit Guide that makes him unhappy. He never really recovers.
Game 2 - In come the red blasts. The early game is an epic battle over Phyrexian Revoker cutting him off his mana acceleration. He eventually lands Jace, and bounces the Revoker... but I just replay naming Jace, survive the counterspell, and finish off the little blue man next turn. He deals with Revoker somehow, and we both go into draw-go mode. Problem is, he's got a bajillion artifact mana, Academy, and Top. Somehow, even with all of that, he can't find a way out before I get more beaters on the table and finish him with counterspell backup.
MATCH 2 - Versus GW Aggro (featuring Chant-Scepter and Zuran Orb-Crucible-Fastbond combos) WIN 2-0
Game 1 - Intense! He starts things off with a t2 Chant-Scepter lock. I respond will Null Rod. He tries a Seal of Primordium, which eats a Force of Will. We then both slowly begin to assemble our armies - I land a Spellstutter, countering something. He lands Abolisher. I land Animar. The flying sprite keeps pounding him in the air while he resolves Crucible, catching me in a Strip-Crucible lock. Over the next few turns, I go to zero lands while he gets out a Knight of the Reliquary. Fortunately, Animar has protection from white! So, he begins to race my Sprite with his Abolisher, my 1/1 Animar stopping Knight each attack. I bide my time, then make the following Awesome Play: Fetchland, pass, betting he won't strip it. He doesnt, but he does play a second 6/6 Knight. On my turn, I play Mountain, sac fetch for island (still no strip activation in response). Tap two, play Cloud, untapping my land and ticking up Animar. Tap island, play Revoker, naming something irrelevant and ticking up Animar. Then, tap mountain and send a bolt to the enemy's dome, taking him to 8. I then swing for 4 with pumped Animar and Sprite, having two blockers for his Knights and unblockable for lethal next turn. He tank for a long time to decide whether he can salvage the situation, and then scoops.
Game 2 - This wasn't as good of a game. He leads with Zuran Orb, then Scepter-StP. I lead with Null Rod, Animar, and then summon a Cloud of Faries and Trygon next turn, with counterspell mana untapped. He never recovers and I keep him from casting anything relevant while the beats come in.
MATCH 3 - TPS (normal build) TIE 1-1-1
This match was a clusterfuck of mistakes, oversights, and misplays on both sides. The less said about it, the better, but suffice to say it went to time and I probabl SHOULD have ended up losing it 1-2 if my opponent had not make some critical mistakes.
MATCH 4 - Bob Control - WIN 2-0
Game 1 - Early Null Rod wins counter war and Sprite beats for the win.
Game 2 - He mulls to 5 and leads with Thoughtseize, taking my FoW. Next turn he lands Top. On my t2, I test the waters with Cloud of Faeries, and getting the all clear, I run out Null Rod. He forces, I force, and he ends up shipping the Top back into his deck to draw a card. I follow with two more Clouds next turn and commence beats while he searches for answers. His mystical eats a Flusterstorm along the way. Finally, he grabs and resolves Engineered Explosives, wiping away the Clouds. At this point, he knows I have two Man o War in my hand (from his earlier Thoughtseize) but accidentially casts Bob anyway. This lets my jellyfish come out, and they seal the deal before he can get anything relevant.
After the dust settles, RandomPoop.dec is the winner!
Conclusions:
Man o War is better than Shrieking Drake.
Animar is randomly awesome against white aggro or decks relying on StP.
Cloud of Faeries is better than I gave it credit for.
Null Rod is a pillar of the format for a reason.
Carl and I should learn to play better Magic.
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Daenyth
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2011, 06:38:07 am » |
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Glad to hear you did well, and congrats on the finish 
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Team #olddrafts4you -- losing games since 2004
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Delha
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2011, 12:05:04 pm » |
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Grats on the win!
Sadly, it's really sounding more and more to me like Animar isn't doing much. Have you considered just replacing him with say, an extra Edric and 2x Vendilion Clique? Or did he actually help out a ton, but it just got kind of glossed over?
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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aosquirrels
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Nuts to you!
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2011, 12:27:28 pm » |
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Great job Colin.
I like to see home-brew decks win (occaisionally). It goes a long way to show would-be Vintage players that budget decks can be fun to play and perform well.
Carl
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No one has ever won a game of Magic by scooping.
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Guli
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« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2011, 12:31:55 pm » |
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Grats on the win!
Sadly, it's really sounding more and more to me like Animar isn't doing much. Have you considered just replacing him with say, an extra Edric and 2x Vendilion Clique? Or did he actually help out a ton, but it just got kind of glossed over?
In his report he talked about how the pro white helped him win games. It is true, most GWx Fish do rely on white removal so I can imagine how Anima can be powerful in that match up.
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