Vintage Rogues - Invisible Stalker Ahoy?

[MaximumCDawg]

So, it appears that Innistrad is bringing us this card:

Invisible Stalker (?)
1U
Hexproof
Invisible Stalker cannot be blocked.
1/1

Which means we now have a total of 8 Sihana Ledgewalkers we can play with.  Is there a Vintage poopdeck in here?  I suspect so!  Both of these dudes are very hard to remove and connect for damage each turn.  No one's going to die from little pings, at least not quickly, but both of these guys are Rouges.  That means we can run Earwig Squad easily.  We can also get alot of value out of Edric, Spymaster (who is himself a rogue).  Rounding out the list with Trygon Predator, just because he is awesome, I made a scratch version of a Rouge list.

Vintage Rouges

Creatures (18)
   
4   Invisible Stalker
4   Sihana Ledgewalker
4   Trygon Predator
3   Edric, Spymaster of Trent
3   Earwig Squad   

Utility (2)

2   Cloak and Dagger

Disruption (16)

4   Duress
4   Force of Will
4   Mental Misstep
4   Null Rod

Accell (4)

1   Lotus Petal
1   Sol Ring
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mana Crypt

Lands (20)

3   Misty Rainforest
3   Polluted Delta
2   Underground Sea
2   Tropical Island
1   Bayou
2   City of Brass
2   Island
1   Forest
1   Swamp
2   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine

Sideboard (15)

3   Ylixid Jailer
4   Leyline of the Void
4   Root Maze
3   Umezawa’s Jitte

"What is this horrible pile, and why is Cloak and Dagger in here," you may well be asking.  Well, the Cloak is there because it can attach to your unblockable creatures through a Null Rod.  it also makes Edric into another shroudy - unblockable draw engine.  In fish or aggro matchups, it comes out in favor of Jitte.  A deck full of weenies needs at least 5 finishers, so I supplemented the Earwigs with some equipment.

The disruption package is designed to just possibly protect you long enough to start connecting with Rogues, at which point you either turn on your draw engine or rape the enemy's deck.  Sideboard is geared for what I'd expect locally - Blue artifact decks, aggro, TPS, and Dredge.

The creatures in this deck are all either: (1) Very hard to get rid of (Invisible Man, Ledgewalker); (2) Provide immediate value upon casting (Edric, Earwig); or (3) Potentially win on their own (Trygon).  Some other cards that seemed good but just didn't compare to this were Grimoire Theif, Oona's Blackguard, and Thada Adel, among others.

I won't be playing this deck till next week - still running the Animar deck this week - but I thought I'd post it here for comments on tuning it before I do.  And, yes, I know that Inivisible Man ain't out yet.  I'll probably run Looter il-Kor in its place for now.

[Delha]

It's a cute idea, I like it. I've played around with lists built on a similar premise before.

I should point out though, that Cloak and Dagger still seems really bad in the deck, and that it does not in fact make Edric (or Earwig Squad) unblockable. Once that's gone, it's mostly just a finisher, and even something like Alpha Status makes for a better clock.

I'm curious to know how Blackguard and Thada Adel played out. What were the problems you had with them? Just didn't do enough?

[MaximumCDawg]

It's a cute idea, I like it. I've played around with lists built on a similar premise before.

I should point out though, that Cloak and Dagger still seems really bad in the deck, and that it does not in fact make Edric (or Earwig Squad) unblockable. Once that's gone, it's mostly just a finisher, and even something like Alpha Status makes for a better clock.

I'm curious to know how Blackguard and Thada Adel played out. What were the problems you had with them? Just didn't do enough?

I'm not even into goldfishing yet, just brainstorming.

I'm not starting with those creatures because, in theory, none of them are (1) hard to remove; (2) give immediate advantage; or (3) win on their own.  Thada has the potential to be awesome against an opposing Vault-Key or Tinker deck, but that's only a portion of the field, and I feel Trygon does well in the same matchup with the advantage of also hitting Shops.  Blackguard has a different problem.  She doesn't pump creatures who arrive before she does, so you want to play 4 of her to get her down early.  Is turning all of your creatures into hypnotic specters worth this?  I dunno.  If you don't draw more dudes, she functions as an evasive rogue that is vulnerable to removal. 

I don't play Vintage to make The Best Deck Ever (obviously) but I do want to avoid making a deck that just falls flat on its ass.  Losing immediately is no fun.  So, whenever I'm making a poopdeck with creatures, I have to think long and hard about whether I'm gonna get enough value out of them to justify'em.  With Invisible Man and Sihana, Hexproof ensures I am very likely to be able to start connecting with Rogues, at least.  With Edric, I'm usually guaranteed to draw at least a card off him if he resolves.  Not so much with Blackguard.  Drop Blackie, she eats removal... profit?

Do you have a different opinion? 

[Delha]

Blackguard: I'd say this partially depends on how removal heavy your meta is. Vintage typically isn't very, but as has come up before, yours isn't a typical meta. In some ways, she's does the same thing as Edric: He generates CA by drawing cards for you, she generates CA by taking them from the opponent. Drawing is indisputably stronger, but she also costs less, pumps your dudes, and stacks in multiples. My gut says that Edric is still a better choice, but we're not necessarily choosing between the two here. The right move might be to run a few of these in addition to Edric. If she eats a Swords that would have otherwise hit him, I'd call it worthwhile.

Thada Adel: I'd argue that the artifact steal is more important against Shops than blue, since you're already mainboarding three caps to hit BSC & Vault. Against Shops you'd presumably be stealing jewelry, which goes a long way towards offsetting the symmetry of Sphere effects. Normally, I'd say three is too expensive, but since you're comparing it to Trygon anyway, that's a moot point. Also, much like Edric/Blackguard, these don't have to be mutually exclusive (though in this case, I'd lean towards keeping at least some of these in the board rather than loading up the main)

Since you didn't mention Cloak & Dagger again, shall I assume that you're cutting it?

[MaximumCDawg]

Since you didn't mention Cloak & Dagger again, shall I assume that you're cutting it?

You mentioned that it doesn't grant evasion (which had escaped me for some reason), so I'm thinking Sword of Fire and Ice is better if I really want a pump effect.  Maybe I just swap them straight our for Blackguards after all?

And, as far as I can tell, every deck is packing some sort of removal.  Either pyroclasm or massacre to deal with Fish, bolt to deal with jace/golem, or maybe Dark Blast to deal with Bob.  Nullifying a two-drop against a deck that needs attacking two-drops to draw any cards seems pretty good.

[TheWhiteDragon]

In a more global meta where shops are present en mass, I think the sb needs some configuration of hurkylls/steel sabotage.  A sabotage or 2 could possibly even be main since they answer turn 1 tinker, which you basically only have FoW for.

I LOVE the deck idea, and have been trying to get my set of foily earwigs into action for years.  I tried blackguards with them, but they often came in too late.  One card i think worth consideration over cloak and dagger is Bitterblossom.  It makes evasive rogues, it is a building clock, it is aerial defense vs trygons (who will hit your null rods to try going broken in a gush/tinker deck), and it is the bee's knees vs shops (aggro or stax).

Another thing you might consider would be main time walk and ancestral, though I assume you didn't add them for budget reasons.

I'd probably cut 1 edric for the 4th earwig.  Edric is awesome, but nuetering opposing decks and getting a 5/3 beater is awesome too.  If you pull their wins and add a clock, you need to draw less.  I'd also cut the 2 wastelands and add another colored mana (1 slot open for ancestral).  You aren't trying to shut them out of mana, despite running null rod, so hitting a land is a marginal gain.  Vs dredge, i think you just lose until g2/3, but then with missteps, FoWs, and 7 gy hate, you probably win g2/3 almost always.

Lotus petal becomes black lotus, and mana crypt becomes mox jet.  1 land can safely become a mox sapphire.

I'd probably cut one unblockable rogue for time walk.

2 duress could become 2 steel sabotage (and I'd probably change any duresses into thoughtseizes to yank blockers)

You can probably cut an unblockable and a trygon for a DT and vamp.

Elsewhere on the wishlist would be a mystical tutor.  Your own tinker/BSC is never terrible.  At the least, a phyrexian metamorph is not awful.  Magus of the unseen is always a good sb option, and nature's claims are awesome. 

The tough thing is you are running 6-8 1/1s that do nothing without earwig.  That's a lot of dead space.  If the null rod's were equipment, it could help immensely on your clock a make the 1/1s useful, but then you are more vulnerable to fast, broken decks.

You could perhaps use cold-eyed selkie (all blue, "unblockable", rogue) with equipment as your draw instead of edric and/or a couple 1/1s.  Then you might even find a replacement for trygon, though i admit he is amazing, so you can be just U/B and smooth your mana base.

The trouble I had in running such a deck (i used the black hasty goblin, bitterblossoms, blackguards, and earwigs) was that the deck can steal wins but is usually not broken enough to crush a wide field.

Reading my comments, obviously I have no budget concern and try to make decks as tier 1 as possible - so use that filter with this.

[Delha]

And, as far as I can tell, every deck is packing some sort of removal.  Either pyroclasm or massacre to deal with Fish, bolt to deal with jace/golem, or maybe Dark Blast to deal with Bob.  Nullifying a two-drop against a deck that needs attacking two-drops to draw any cards seems pretty good.

This seems to support my prior post: You should probably run Blackguard on top of Edric. He's clearly the better CA engine, so if you can get people to blow removal on her, that makes it more likely that he'll stick around.

Thinking about it more, I'm guessing Thada in the main with extra Trygons in side, is probably best. One more rogue to work with Blackguard won't hurt.

I also like the idea of testing Bitterblossom. It sounds like it plays well with a lot of what you're running.

I'm a bit shakier about SoFI. I'm not so sure you'd have the mana to use it well, and it might become redundant when Edric is up an running.

[serracollector]

I like the list, I would replace the 2 cloak and dagger with 2 Ninja of Deep hours tho.  Seem very good with the unblockables.

[Darkenslight]

I'm wondering what potential 2 Stinkdrinker Bandits would have.  Basically, what they do is, if a Rogue or Goblin is unblocked, they gain +2/+1 until the end of the turn.  Not even remotely evasive, though.

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm wondering what potential 2 Stinkdrinker Bandits would have.  Basically, what they do is, if a Rogue or Goblin is unblocked, they gain +2/+1 until the end of the turn.  Not even remotely evasive, though.

If you're going lords, I think Blackguard is gonna be the best.  Pump plus disruption once she gets going.  In fact, the more I think about this, the more I like it.  She makes your little 1/1 wimps a little more relevant in the midgame...

I like the list, I would replace the 2 cloak and dagger with 2 Ninja of Deep hours tho.  Seem very good with the unblockables.

Possible, but lacks synergy with the rest of the deck.  Ninja zips in and stops Prowl from connecting.  He also removes counters given by Blackguard if you do that.  I grant you that it does provide more options, however, on what to do when you get through with a Rogue.  

[xouman]

I played 2 years ago with blackguards, earwigs, selkies, rootwater thief and looter il-kor. That was my first vintage deck and was crap, I even lost games after playing earwig. But of course, I managed to win some of them.

Blackguard: awesome in slow matches, specially against fishes. Should be too late in gush meta.

Earwig: best rogue by far, of course, but only against drain decks. Against fish or mud it's quite mediocre :/

Selkie: Play blackguard->selkie was really nice, but as said, it's quite slow.

Rootwater: Good curving, nice alternative to earwig, but only good against drain decks.

Looter il-kor: better than invisible stallker by far. being able to recycle cards is really nice in a deck with so few manipulation. Discarding extra Rods or lands for counterspells was nice.


I also tested bitterblossom (another slow card), and purchased grimoire thief but never played it, I prefer earwig and rootwater. Later I bought thada adel but didn't play rogues anymore.

The deck NEEDS to defend itself against quick starts. The mentioned disruption

Disruption (16)
4   Duress
4   Force of Will
4   Mental Misstep
4   Null Rod

feels ok for me, although 4 mental misstep could be too much. I played daze, but sometimes it was even worse, because it slowed my start, and ending playing something like 5 duress/tgz, 4 fow, 3 daze, 2 pierce, 1 misdirection, 3 null rod. This deck would benefit a lot from steel sabotage, good to cut moxes but specially important to bounce robots and cut MUD's threats.

Rogue decks must be created as hate (UB cards, discard and take cards out of the game) or as tribal beating (monoblack, but not as consistent as merfolks or goblins by any means). Play stinkdrinker is a win more, it only helps if you are already in a good position. I'd play now this deck

4-earwig squad
4-oona's blackguard
2-cold-eyed selkie
2-thada adel
3-rootwater thief

3-bitterblossom

4-null rod

4-fow
2-spell pierce
1-misdirection
2-steel sabotage
1-ancestral recall
1-time walk
1-brainstorm

4-tgz
1-vampiric tutor/demonic

1-black lotus
1-mox sapphire
1-mox jet

4-polluted delta
2-flooded strand
4-underground sea
4-wasteland
1-strip mine
2-island
1-swamp

sideboard
1-hurkyl's
2-energy flux
2-umezawa's jitte
3-mindbreak trap
1-ravenous trap
2-pithing needle
2-nihil spellbomb
2-sower of temptation

[TopSecret]

here are some rogue cards that have not been mentioned that I think should be considered

Vedalken Heretic - Draw Engine, pitches to force

Goblin Vandal, Tin Street Hooligan - Good artifact destruction

[MaximumCDawg]

@Xouman

I think your list is trying to do something fundementally different from mine.  Your Looters are an additional source of CA, which is great, but do not protect themselves or evade.  Against Fish, they won't connect often.  Even if you're not interested in capping them - and I think a cap hurts fish alot too, if you nail the goyfs / selkies - your creatures will be smaller than theirs, so it is important to get in with evasion.  If you are running looters, (il Kor being a possible exception) then you are looking to cast a 1U spell that helps you draw but does NOT deal damage.

What I'm thinking about, by comparison, are difficult to remove pests that will almost certainly connect for damage repeatedly.  Invis and Ledgewalker come down, I know I've got a (small) clock and a repeated source of Prowl.  It also means that Edric should almost always cantrip at least, and probably do better.  I'm thinking of an opening play like this: t1 defend with duress/fow/misstep; t2 rogue; t3 Edric, swing rogue, draw a card, more rogue; t4 swing two, draw two - at which point I'm leveraging my CA like Noble Fish does.  Since the list is tight on mana and wants to hold free counters in hand, I think this strategy might be better than the looter one.  Not sure, of course.  Alternatively, of course, I might cap the enemy on t3 instead, but that'd be sideboard call.

For the same reason, I like Edric better than Selkie.  This deck concept isn't tuned to maximize her like Noble does with its exalted triggers.  Sure, shes' an evasive rogue, but that base is covered.  Edric draws cards immediately, too.

As for Adel, I love her to tears but still not sold.  How about this: Blackguards maindeck (since they are an additional evasive Rogue game 1 even if useless), then if you're up against Blue you side them out for Adels?

[Delha]

As for Adel, I love her to tears but still not sold.  How about this: Blackguards maindeck (since they are an additional evasive Rogue game 1 even if useless), then if you're up against Blue you side them out for Adels?

I'd like seeing how +4 Blackguard, +2 Adel, -4 Trygon (sideboard), -2 Cloak & Dagger plays out. Against shops, you can go up to the full 6x pieces of artifact dudes (though I still worry about you ever getting to 3 mana in the first place). TBH, I intuitively want a couple Steel Sabotage as well, but don't know what I'd recommend cutting for them.

Also, is life so much of an issue that Thoughseize is a problem? From what I've heard of your meta, it seems that it'd be far superior to Duress.

Edit: Grammar

[xouman]

Looter il-kor has shadow (effectively unblockable, thought unable to block) and it's a rogue, of course. That's why I played it, and card filtering was very nice. The problem is that you need some prowl creatures to take profit, otherwise is a so-so creature.

I prefer selkie over Edric mostly because I played with strips and wastelands (even with mutavaults in order to have another rogue, but I wouldn't play them anymore probably), and getting third color would be sometimes a nuisance. Apart from that, selkie has islandwalk (makes prowl easier to achieve), can draw cards by itself even in front of creatures (the problem of ninja of the deep hours and Edric itself) and would make cloak and dagger make sense. On the other side Edric instantly gives cards (provide you have a creature in field), and most of the time you will draw more cards. I think selkie gets the edge, but of course I could be wrong

This rogue deck would be nice if you could sistematically start with early blackguard, since it boosts your creatures for fun. I also considered a monoblack as said, but surely it would be far worse than dark times.

I even considered fitting red (in a BR deck or Bru), as there are few red rogues: Slavering Nulls (not a rogue but a goblin, triggers prowl), goblin vandal, fortune thief (would be better if DSC wasn't around). But every version fails to get quick game control excepting duress, whereas any decent fish deck has to put some hate/control quickly.

[MaximumCDawg]

Okay, finally got my Innistrad, so I'm sleeving this up for tomorrow's sanctioned game.  Here's what I'm thinking of, after the thoughts in this thread.

(1) Oona’s Blackguard is probably worth including.  She’s not shroudy, but she is evasive and so she works well with Edric and Earwig.  With her on the field, each of your subsequent rogues becomes a potent control mechanism on its own.  Simply, there are situations I keep seeing in goldfishing where, as an opponent, an early Blackguard is far more threatening that any other two-drop I can run.

(2) The deck must be able to interact on turn 1, and not just through Misstep.  Misstep doesn’t stop moxen into Tinker.  Misdirection joins the party, and the number of 1-cc counterspells goes up.  Thoughtseize over Duress so you can hit creatures, and Steel Sabotage over Pierces so you have a Blightsteel answer.

(3) Tried Stifle + wasteland package, didn’t like it.  Problem is that, since you need to be making 2-drops to pose a threat and I don’t have full power, using up a land drop is asymmetrical in the bad way.       

(4) Shops matchup is unwinnable of they start landing spheres; this deck doesn’t have the explosiveness to overcome it.  So shops plan is so swap out Flusterstorms for heavy Annul and Sabotage protection.

(5) Considered Goblin Vandal, as it is a rogue, but it requires going into red.  Might still be an option.  If I ran Vandal, I’d probably drop Ledgewalker and some of the Sabotages.  The problem with Vandal, though, is that coming down t1 doesn’t mean much since you rarely have 3 mana for a Squad or Spymaster on t2.  It does give you early moxen hate, though, so on t2 you can eat jewelry and keep U up for a counterspell.  Perhaps more importantly, Vandal DOES something other than get in for one, which is all Stalker is good for (he’s very good at it though).  This is the one part of the deck I’m most uncertain about.  What do ya’ll think about the Vandal Question?

Vintage Rouges (61 cards omg)

Creatures (15)
  
4   Invisible Stalker (Core of the deck)
2   Sihana Ledgewalker (More of the core)
3   Oona's Blackguard (Huge threat if unanswered)
3   Edric, Spymaster of Trent (Draw engine)
3   Earwig Squad (Wreck blue decks)

Disruption (23)

3   Thoughtseize
1   Misdirection
4   Force of Will
3   Flusterstorm    
3   Steel Sabotage
4   Null Rod          
2   Dismember      
2   Pithing Needle

Accell (3)

1   Sol Ring
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mana Crypt

Lands (20)

4   Misty Rainforest
1   Polluted Delta
1   Verdant Catacombs
2   Underground Sea
2   Tropical Island
1   Bayou
2   City of Brass
1   Island
1   Forest
1   Swamp
3   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine

Sideboard (15)

2   Ylixid Jailer
4   Leyline of the Void
4   Root Maze
1   Dismember
1   Flusterstorm
1   Steel Sabotage
2   Annul

[TheWhiteDragon]

Dude...BITTERBLOSSOMS!!!  If you are running earwigs AND blackguards, you totally need blossoms.  They may seem slow, but what they offer in clock/permanents over time is so good for 1B.  earwigs want something fast, true, but oona's blackguard LOVES blossom.  2/2 flyer every turn that forces discard...cmon.  Also, vs shops (aggro OR smokey versions) blossom is amazing.  It really thwarts tangle wire and smokestack, blocks hellkite all day, and can handle slash panthers and lodestones quickly (and with a single blackguard, the trade is laughable).  Even vs blue, it's a swarm to take out jace that they can't beat with bounce, and can even buy you time vs a BSC if you have even 2 toughness worth of them to block.  I can't say enough about this card.  It's amazing in many builds and absurd in a deck built to take advantage of rogues.

[Delha]

You said you didn't like how waste was playing out, but you seem to have gone to 3+1 over the 2+1 in your original list. Was that an oversight?

Also, is there any particular reason you're not including Hurkyl's for the Shop matchup? I know you're not going to EOT bounce then just go nuts, but I'd still think that resetting them is enough to let you start landing dudes (which translates to draw, which translates to hitting your drops). Also, it plays well with any Steel Sabotages or Annuls that might be sitting in hand. I may be way off base here, just kinda thinking out loud.

Also, super agree w/ Bitterblossoms for the Stax match.

[MaximumCDawg]

Re: Wasteland - Yea, that's supposed to be 2 wasteland and 2 island.  I'm not saying I don't run them at all, but if I ran Stifle I'd want to go up to 4 wastelands for the strong mana denial package.  I didn't find that to be powerful.  I suppose I could run Aether Vial if I really wanted to make that work...

Re: Blossom - I understand its awesome against shops, but what comes out?  Unlike my other two-drops, blossom cannot activate Prowl or draw cards off Edric on t3.  Blossom is inevitability, and unless I've got Blackguard out there, too (and waited 2 turns!) it's not really even that threatening to many decks.  I'm using my two-drops as enablers, not as finishers in and of themselves.  I'm not unconvinced, though.  Do you have a suggestion for how to modify the deck to include BB?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Off the top of my head, you are running 14 counters as well as 8 answers.  I'd cut 1 needle(or)dismember, 1 edric, 1 ledgewalker, 1 misdirection

I'd also swap 1 steel sabotage for 1 hurkylls

I'd swap a second ledgewalker for a 4th earwig

pithing needle/dismember - great for killing troublesome critters or dealing with a threat like jace - but BB can chump a threat all day or pile up blockers to trade.  Needling a tezz or jace is great, but you have 1 and blossom beats can whittle planeswalkers to nothing fast.  You also have a sb for the applications of these 2 cards.  I'd actually sb out 1 needle since welder/golem/confidant/trygon are more common and bigger threats than anything needle will help against.

2 ledgewalkers - blossoms make a turn 3 attacking rogue with evasion as well, so this is an obvious switch.  Losing 2 shrouded rogues is fine if you are adding 4 rogue generators.  Also, a fast earwig is crippling to so many decks and can even make a massive clock vs fish.  It trades with golems while yanking their 3 best cards too.  Sometimes even pulling 3 workshops isn't terrible to really slow them down, esp if you can waste their 1 shop.  Earwig's ability is too good in a rogue deck not to run 4.

Edric - He's a legend, so running more than 2 I was never a fan of.  Also, he costs 3 of 2 colors, which makes him harder on your manabase.  BB also generates card advantage big time.  For 1 card, you get a new attacker each turn.  If blossom is out, you get a 2/2 discard-forcing flyer every turn, and that is HUGE card advantage, moreso than a 3rd edric will get you.  You don't have enough bombs to be dropping several cards in one turn, so you will draw more than you play off edric.  Oh, and a single edric + a swarm of 1/1 fliers I hear is pretty insane.

1 Misdirection - Such a narrow card nowadays.  I see no reason to run this over a 4th flusterstorm or even a spell pierce.  But since you have a ton of answer cards and counters anyway, BB gives you a threat engine that helps your whole deck run and can foil entire decks, not just 1 spell.  How good is that MisD vs shops?  Run it sb if you really want it.  Also, you say it needs to interact turn 1 beyond misstep.  How does MisD help vs moxen or tinker either?  In fact, how does it help vs ANY spell except ancestral?  Flusterstorm is totally acceptable as an anti-counter counter.  MisD is super weak nowadays.

Now even if you run 3 BB, which is acceptable, you still want the 4th earwig and hurkylls.

I assume this is budget since you have emerald, but no jet/sapphire/lotus.  That's unfortunate, but it is what it is.  I'd actually run jet/sapphire and no emerald, since you only get Edric off green. 

The deck screams a need for vamp, DT, ancestral, walk.  But it is what it is.

[MaximumCDawg]

Off the top of my head, you are running 14 counters as well as 8 answers.  I'd cut 1 needle(or)dismember, 1 edric, 1 ledgewalker, 1 misdirection

I'd also swap 1 steel sabotage for 1 hurkylls

I'd swap a second ledgewalker for a 4th earwig

pithing needle/dismember - great for killing troublesome critters or dealing with a threat like jace - but BB can chump a threat all day or pile up blockers to trade.  Needling a tezz or jace is great, but you have 1 and blossom beats can whittle planeswalkers to nothing fast.  You also have a sb for the applications of these 2 cards.  I'd actually sb out 1 needle since welder/golem/confidant/trygon are more common and bigger threats than anything needle will help against.

2 ledgewalkers - blossoms make a turn 3 attacking rogue with evasion as well, so this is an obvious switch.  Losing 2 shrouded rogues is fine if you are adding 4 rogue generators.  Also, a fast earwig is crippling to so many decks and can even make a massive clock vs fish.  It trades with golems while yanking their 3 best cards too.  Sometimes even pulling 3 workshops isn't terrible to really slow them down, esp if you can waste their 1 shop.  Earwig's ability is too good in a rogue deck not to run 4.

Edric - He's a legend, so running more than 2 I was never a fan of.  Also, he costs 3 of 2 colors, which makes him harder on your manabase.  BB also generates card advantage big time.  For 1 card, you get a new attacker each turn.  If blossom is out, you get a 2/2 discard-forcing flyer every turn, and that is HUGE card advantage, moreso than a 3rd edric will get you.  You don't have enough bombs to be dropping several cards in one turn, so you will draw more than you play off edric.  Oh, and a single edric + a swarm of 1/1 fliers I hear is pretty insane.

1 Misdirection - Such a narrow card nowadays.  I see no reason to run this over a 4th flusterstorm or even a spell pierce.  But since you have a ton of answer cards and counters anyway, BB gives you a threat engine that helps your whole deck run and can foil entire decks, not just 1 spell.  How good is that MisD vs shops?  Run it sb if you really want it.  Also, you say it needs to interact turn 1 beyond misstep.  How does MisD help vs moxen or tinker either?  In fact, how does it help vs ANY spell except ancestral?  Flusterstorm is totally acceptable as an anti-counter counter.  MisD is super weak nowadays.

Now even if you run 3 BB, which is acceptable, you still want the 4th earwig and hurkylls.

I assume this is budget since you have emerald, but no jet/sapphire/lotus.  That's unfortunate, but it is what it is.  I'd actually run jet/sapphire and no emerald, since you only get Edric off green.  

The deck screams a need for vamp, DT, ancestral, walk.  But it is what it is.

What do you think about the concept of dropping Edric and Ledgewalker entirely?  That'd destroy my current draw engine, but it would eliminate green from the deck entirely.  I could thne implement all of your suggestions, or even add red for Vandal instead/in addition as a one-drop.  Vandal as a one-drop gets me my three-drop Earwig even if I'm running blossom on t2, most of the time.

Here’s an attempt to accommodate what you’re thinking and what I’m thinking.  By going Vandal and Blossom over Ledgewalker and Edric, my curve is lower and I think I’m safer in running Stifle+Wastes.  Added to Vandal and Rod, this should be a fairly potent mana disruption package.  I also dropped Sol Ring, since it doesn’t actually accelerate anything I need.  I only need a one-mana boost once to get out Earwig at 3.  Everything else in the deck is 1 or 2.  Since more storm hate is maindeck now, I left it out of the board to make room for shop / aggro / dredge hate.

Rogue RUBing

Rogues (18):
4 Goblin Vandal
4 Invisible Stalker
3 Oona’s Blackguard
3 Bitterblossom
4 Earwig Squad

Disruption (19):
3 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
2 Steel Sabotage
3 Stifle
4 Null Rod

Acceleration (3):
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal

Lands (20):
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 City of Brass
3 Island, Swamp, Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB(15):
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ylixid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Flusterstorm
2 Steel Sabotage
3 Dismember

[Delha]

I dislike that change. You didn't cut a color, you just swapped out green for red.

Edric's effect is huge, and he plays well with practically every single dude you run. Cutting Ledgewalkers makes sense since you're replacing them with other cards that play well with Blackguard and Edric (arguably more so). On the other hand, cutting Edric for Vandal means ditching a massive CA engine for a non-evasive dude that's often redundant due to the 4x Null Rod you run.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Keep the edric plan...just run 2, not 3.  Cut 4 vandals.  Cut 1 stifle.  Cut 1 invisible stalker.  Add sol ring, hurkylls, and 2 of either merrow bonegnawer (utility vs yawg will/dredge) or nightshade stinger (evasion).  This will let you do things like turn 1 land, stinger...turn 2 land, sol ring, swing with stinger, prowl earwig.  This gives you speed and enough rogues to do damage.  4 earwig, 2 nightshade, 3 bitterblossom,  3 blackguard, 3 stalker, 2 edric...that's plenty of rogues.  Sol ring helps you power out blackguard and blossom at the same time on turn 2 or other equally absurd plays.  If you could play ancestral, timewalk, etc...i'd say you could lose edric...but you need some card draw.

[MaximumCDawg]

So, i went with a four-color list running 4 Vandals, 4 Stalkers, 3 Spymasters, 3 Blackguards, and 4 Earwigs.  I also dropped the wasteland/stifle plan again.  Otherwise, list was very similar to those above.  I lost to all serious decks; not a good sign!

MATCH 1 - Loss 1-2 - Cobra-Gush Variant + Consecrated Sphinx

Game 1 WIN -  I land Stalker and start my 20 turn clock.  I lose a counter war over Earwig Squad the following turn, and my opponent follows up with Fastbond into two Gushes.  Ouch!  However, luck smiles as he can't find anything but land until he's so low on life from rogue beats that he cannot afford to use Fastbond to generate a win.

Game 2 and 3 - I forget the details, but I basically got manhandled.  Both times he essentially ignores my board development and focuses on going for his kill - Psychatog + Cunning Wish into Berserk in the board.  

MATCH 2 - Loss 0-2 - High Tide (instant speed)

Game 1 - I'm raped before I know what deck he's on.  He goes off in response to an attack with an Edric-fueled mass and gets there.
Game 2 - I have NOTHING to board here.  I just have to put on pressure and force him to go for it before he is comfortable.  He eventually baits out a counter with an Ancestral Recall - what the hell do I do here? - and when I counter, he goes off.  Meh.

MATCH 3 - Win 2-0 - White Weenie

Game 1 - He goes for turn 2 Null Rod; hilarious.  I go Stalker->Earwig Squad the following turns, capping three of his EIGHT Swords-Paths.  He plays Nev's Disk and Seal of Cleansing, apparently seeking to pop his Rod and blow up my board, but I play TWO Null Rods next turn to keep him in lethal.

Game 2 - He gets an early Land Tax and uses it to try and thin his deck.  The plan doesn't work, as he keeps drawing land anyway.  I slowly assemble a board and cap away his removal.  He finally starts landing some creatures, but my dismembers make short work of them.

MATCH 4 - Win 2-1 - The Rock

Game 1 - I lead with thoughtseize and see two goyfs and other assorted badness.  I take a goyf and get my hand circumcised the next turn.  I quickly scoop to an impossible board before showing him what Im playing.

Game 2 - He plays a Verdant Catacombs, so on my t2 I run out Pithing Needle... and he forgets to crack.  WHOOPS.  I turn off his only black source and bury him in rogues before he can get on-line.

Game 3 - He's mana screwed again, this time stuck on 2 lands while I build up.  He finally gets to three to use his Pernicious Deed, but it's too late at that point.

Conclusions: At least how I played it, the deck was not powerful at all against the fast combo / blue control decks that it was supposed to be good against.  It was surprisingly great against other aggro decks, though.  I did not expect that.

P.S. Carl said to tell you all that if you're not playing Shops, you're doing it wrong, or something like that I dont know.

[Delha]

Why did you run 4 colors? That sounds terrible. What did you leave out in order to fit the Vandals, and did they actually do anything?

[MaximumCDawg]

Dehla - The four colors thing actually wasn't as bad as I'd feared.  I had no trouble getting mana screwed.  Though, luckily, I ran into only one wasteland all day.  I left out Stifles, Wastes, and Ledgewalklers for Vandals and Bitterblossom.

As to your larger question: No, they did nothing relevant that I noticed besides being a 1-drop rogue.  However, it's really hard for me to tell how valuable a 1-drop rogue is. 

Against White Weenie, for example, t1 Vandal let me go into t2 Mana Crypt -> Earwig, which trumped his t2 weenie hard.  I really can't tell, in hindsight, whether a Stalker would have been just as good a turn later or not.  Really hard to tell.  In another matchup, against Rock I believe, I kept a shaky one-land hand after mulling to 4.  If I had not had the one-drop Vandal, I would have been really humped because I would have no threat and no ability to trigger my Earwig later on. So, in retrospect, I have no idea whether it was good to run them or not. 

My biggest conclusion, though, was that the deck as I ran it was turriblebad against actual Vintage decks, and suprisingly good against other aggro / control decks.

[Delha]

Vandal sounds like it worked exactly as well as I'd expected: Not very. You should cut them for Bonegnawers or Stingers as suggested (I personally lean towards Stingers).

What "real Vintage decks" did you face? Was it just the one Gushbond list? If so, you clearly don't have the sample size to justify your conclusion that all competitive Vintage lists would stomp this.

[MaximumCDawg]

Vandal sounds like it worked exactly as well as I'd expected: Not very. You should cut them for Bonegnawers or Stingers as suggested (I personally lean towards Stingers).

What "real Vintage decks" did you face? Was it just the one Gushbond list? If so, you clearly don't have the sample size to justify your conclusion that all competitive Vintage lists would stomp this.

I never said it was bad against "all competitive Vintage lists," just that it failed miserably against the one type of deck I was actually aiming for: blue control.  That's where Earwig Squad should shine, no?  And High Tide is definitely a tier 2 contender, at least as powerful (and vulnerable to the right hate) as Elf combo or Belcher.

EDIT:  What about Prickly Boggart?  It's another evasive 1-drop black rogue.  Unlike Stinger, it can block too if push comes to shove.  On the flip side, it can be blocked by robots and Bob...

[TheWhiteDragon]

I considered boggart, but it can be blocked by robot and bob - that's why i suggested stinger/bonegnawer.  If you face no dredge in your meta, stinger is obviously a better choice.  Even vs an aggro filled meta, stinger is better.  Only in a meta with dredge and yawgwill craziness (or welder/crucibles) should you use bonegnawer.

I agree that you need 1-drop rogues but Vandal was not a good idea.  4 colors is not a good idea.  I suggested against it.  Others suggested against it.  You went 2-2.  Wastelands may not have been a big factor (and in most true Vintage settings, they will be), but there are more pitfalls to a 4 color, unpowered deck.  Consistency just isn't there.

Cutting wastelands was awful.  I don't think the stifles would have helped you much either way and should have been additional flusterstorms.  Wasteland helps a lot.  Cutting a 3+ color deck off a whole color is brutal.  Do you know how easy it is to gush when you have one dual land in play and it gets wastelanded?  Not very. 

I think you basically thought bitterblossom was a good call and then tossed all the other advice out the window.  Your sb must have been pretty bad too if you had nothing to help fight off combo.

Here's the list I would suggest:

Rogues (17):
3 Nightshade Stinger
2 Invisible Stalker
2 Edrik, Spymaster of Trest
3 Oona’s Blackguard
3 Bitterblossom
4 Earwig Squad

Disruption (19):
3 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Steel Sabotage
1 hurkyll's recall
4 Null Rod

Acceleration (4):
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring

Lands (20):
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 tropical island
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB(15):
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ylixid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Flusterstorm
2 hurkyll's recall
1 Dismember
3 Perish
1 Pernicious Deed

I am assuming you have no tinker/BSC, mystical tutor, merchant scroll, or whatever else that would be useful.  You are bothered by the fact that you are losing to "real" vintage decks, yet you are unpowered and lacking some of the <$5 cards that are awesome in vintage.  Now, this deck CAN beat all those gush decks, but you need to play it right.  A turn 1 stinger, turn 2 earwig with flusterstorm/force backup should be gg vs gush.  You yank their kill conditions and they have nothing but jace to win with (and good luck ramping up jace vs 14 rogues and 3 bitterblossoms). 

Perish is a super cheap card that smashes green aggro.  Your disruption suite should be fine vs blue decks...just run flusters and pierces instead of crappy stifles and multiple steel sabotages.

[MaximumCDawg]

Oh, don't be so harsh.  Vandal was an experiment that didn't pan out.  My logic was I'd rather have additional power hate than another dork, but it turned out that the dork was more relevant.  I won't run em anymore, of course.

As to your final remarks: yea, I have all of the non-power staples.  I don't have Tinker in this deck because it currently isnt using enough artifacts to be reliable.  I don't run tutors becaue I've found, in an unpowered deck, that I usually do better just focusing on 4-of answers for consistency than for tutors.  I've been in alot of situations where I just don't have the mana in the early game to tutor an answer AND play it with backup soon enough to matter.  I'm not married to any of these decisions, a'course.