[Innistrad] - Snapcaster Mage

[diopter]

FYI, opponent gets another topdeck.

[diopter]

FYI, Duress effect involves paying X for 0.

[Onslaught]

"You've already been proven wrong about Snapcasters"

Could you elaborate?

Sure.

I think Snapcaster Mage is terrible and slow and under-powered

Snapcasters lol.

The common scenario is flashing back 0-1 mana disruptors like Missteps and Flusterstorms, I do not think paying 2 mana more for said disruption for the chance for flexibility is inherently worth it in this environment.

Fringe card

It's not even as good as Regrowth.

Confidant is seeing serious play (never thought that was going to happen) and some people actually think [Snapcaster Mage] is a viable engine too

Click here for contrary evidence.

[diopter]

Yes, Onslaught, you have convinced me.

Extending your method to its logical conclusion, I see Islands are in a lot of these decks. Therefore I have concluded that Island is the best mana source of all time.

PERIOD.

[voltron00x]

Yes, Onslaught, you have convinced me.

Extending your method to its logical conclusion, I see Islands are in a lot of these decks. Therefore I have concluded that Island is the best mana source of all time.

PERIOD.

I mean... it is, isn't it?

[voltron00x]

I have a healthy respect of Smennen's work but his position on Clique v. Bob is much like his position on Doomsday's workshop matchup - not rooted in reality.

Even then, you'll note he never played more Cliques than Bobs and never centered a gameplan around Clique (how could you??? It's an expensive conditional instant Duress).

Next!

What ever happened to that Doomsday deck, anyway?  I read somewhere that it was a better deck than Flash, or some similar proclamation.

[Daenyth]

I have a healthy respect of Smennen's work but his position on Clique v. Bob is much like his position on Doomsday's workshop matchup - not rooted in reality.

Even then, you'll note he never played more Cliques than Bobs and never centered a gameplan around Clique (how could you??? It's an expensive conditional instant Duress).

Next!

What ever happened to that Doomsday deck, anyway?  I read somewhere that it was a better deck than Flash, or some similar proclamation.

Rumors of its shop matchup may have been greatly exaggerated.

[Killane]

Wow. This thread is making me sad. I see alot of bold language and borderline ad hom attacks and very little rational debate.

Let's not forget, both of these cards are more then simply "instant U limited regrowth" and "instant U expensive duress". They have a body attached which sticks around, can attack, block, or be bounced to use again. The reason they are good is a combination of factors, not just the spell effect. Think about it: Bob is almost universally accepted as one of the best creatures of all time. Yet you can get him without the body and much less lifeloss, but when was the last time Phyrexian Arena saw play? Night's whisper does see play, and is a fair comparison, but Bob sees much more play. Why? Because you get a spell effect plus a useful attacker for.a.price not far off what either is worth on its own. You advance your gameplan in multiple ways at once.

Clique can do all of the following without acting as duress:

- kill Jace
- bolt your opponent multiple times
- cycle a dead card in your hand
- put back BSC from hand to library to assist Tinker.
- buy you a turn Vs Lodestone Golem
- kill a small Goyf when flashed in to block, before it has the chance to get bigger
- block and kill a Mishra's factory, even with another active one on board
- put your opponent on a clock

It's a versatile card with lots of uses that are good in U mirrors and some in other matches as well.

Snapcaster is another animal. Regrowth is a powerful effect that has seen play before. The body is not as good, but the spell is better in many cases. The issue with Regrowth has always been negative CA and Sorcery speed. Snapcaster fixes both issues by giving you a free body, making it neutral CA, and having flash. He works very well with Mental Misstep, which has proven itself as nuts in this format, and is fine with other cheep cards as well. You keep forgetting that he leaves a body around- he's not just a spell, he's a threat.

[diopter]

Hmm, Phyrexian Arena is a comparable for Dark Confidant now?

I am starting to see why some folks think Clique is good now. There seems to be a lack of understanding of why 3 mana is worse than 2 mana is worse than 1 mana.

Clique cannot do the following things:
- Be played with one mana

I'm sure this is not important though.

---

Bob's and Clique's attacking is relevant in the blue mirror in a similar way that Jace's ultimate is relevant or Mana Crypt's drawback is relevant. It's not nothing but it's not high on the list of priorities.

[diopter]

Regrowth is "negative CA"?

There is a real lack of basic understanding of the fundamentals of the game here.

[Onslaught]

Bob's and Clique's attacking is relevant in the blue mirror in a similar way that Jace's ultimate is relevant or Mana Crypt's drawback is relevant. It's not nothing but it's not high on the list of priorities.

Clique kills Jace in one swing and can be cast after Jace has used up his action for the turn. It's extremely relevant.

[diopter]

Yes, Onslaught, you have convinced me.

Extending your method to its logical conclusion, I see Islands are in a lot of these decks. Therefore I have concluded that Island is the best mana source of all time.

PERIOD.

I mean... it is, isn't it?

Yeah!

I have a healthy respect of Smennen's work but his position on Clique v. Bob is much like his position on Doomsday's workshop matchup - not rooted in reality.

Even then, you'll note he never played more Cliques than Bobs and never centered a gameplan around Clique (how could you??? It's an expensive conditional instant Duress).

Next!

What ever happened to that Doomsday deck, anyway?  I read somewhere that it was a better deck than Flash, or some similar proclamation.

It didn't play the best creature in Vintage period, how could it last in this metagame?

[diopter]

Bob's and Clique's attacking is relevant in the blue mirror in a similar way that Jace's ultimate is relevant or Mana Crypt's drawback is relevant. It's not nothing but it's not high on the list of priorities.

Clique kills Jace in one swing and can be cast after Jace has used up his action for the turn. It's extremely relevant.

Unless your opponent is daft, that works once. If that.

[Phele]

Wow. This thread is making me sad.

Totally agreed, this is more about some personal fight between Diopter and Onslaught. Even though, they exchange some arguments, these fight doesnt lead to anyhing and is complete useless. There is no sense to compare complete different creatures. Can't you continue to compare your ... size by pm?

[diopter]

I have a healthy respect of Smennen's work but his position on Clique v. Bob is much like his position on Doomsday's workshop matchup - not rooted in reality.

Even then, you'll note he never played more Cliques than Bobs and never centered a gameplan around Clique (how could you??? It's an expensive conditional instant Duress).

Next!

What ever happened to that Doomsday deck, anyway?  I read somewhere that it was a better deck than Flash, or some similar proclamation.

On a serious note, I don't know. The ultra aggressive take on Gush is actually pretty awesome against many blue-based builds.

[Grand Inquisitor]

There is a real lack of basic understanding of the fundamentals of the game here.

I'm with Diopter here.  I don't think his case is open/close on Snapcaster, but the arguments and methods being employed against him here are not rigorous even by magic board standards.

I think the best way to view snapcasters drawbacks are in terms of comparisons to regrowth.  The drawback is tempo (+2 mana to effect) and interdependence (dead on its own).  These are serious contingencies that make Dark Confidant a much different and easier card in my view*.  Clique v Bob is a whole other discussion, but the play counts tell most of the story.

Re: Doomsday, beware the Mean Deck fire and forget combo deck.  History is littered with them.


*I'm not saying that Snapcaster is bad, simply that it's new and not as easily a playable as Bob.  It hasn't been optimized or had enough time to see how effective counter-strategies are.

[Joblin Velder]

Wow. This thread is making me sad.

Totally agreed, this is more about some personal fight between Diopter and Onslaught. Even though, they exchange some arguments, these fight doesnt lead to anyhing and is complete useless. There is no sense to compare complete different creatures. Can't you continue to compare your ... size by pm?

Yup.

[LordHomerCat]

Bob's and Clique's attacking is relevant in the blue mirror in a similar way that Jace's ultimate is relevant or Mana Crypt's drawback is relevant. It's not nothing but it's not high on the list of priorities.

Clique kills Jace in one swing and can be cast after Jace has used up his action for the turn. It's extremely relevant.

Unless your opponent is daft, that works once. If that.

I don't get it.  Why only once?  What are you gonna do, play Jace and fateseal me?  Then I'll make a 3/1 and put your Jace to 2 counters.  Then what?  Unsummon him?  That isn't gonna work.  You can fateseal again, I guess, but that's a pretty big waste of a 4 mana Sorcery Planeswalker.

[diopter]

Jace, fateseal yourself (a decent line of play in various neutral-to-losing positions where you are trying to protect against Bolts or don't have Confidant to block). Dig 1 towards bomb.

[If you had the bomb like Tinker or DT in hand... You probably would played it instead of Jace, or Brainstormed it back instead of Fatesealed. This is likely to happen regardless of knowledge of Clique in your opponent's deck, since Thoughtseize can still be a threat]

Clique comes into play and attacks. Clique can't touch the top of your library, AND gives you another topdeck.

Draw for the turn, then Brainstorm. That's a reach of up to 6 cards into your library which is one less than Jace gets you unmolested. And your opponent spent 3 mana to help you.

Alternatively you could Fateseal again, get attacked to 1, get another draw step and then Brainstorm on the following turn, but I prefer not to give this window of opportunity top my opponent unless I am holding a nut counter hand.

Jace surviving a draw step is a good "reasonable expectation" anyway, for typical non-Lotus games at least. Vintage is slower than ever but there are still only so many turns.

[nineisnoone]

FYI, Duress effect involves paying X for 0.

LOL. Wow. That's your analysis on Duress? /thread.

[diopter]

Too right, nineisnoone. The subtlety of an instant Duress effect that negates the primary benefit of instant Duress (being able to see the topdeck) escapes me utterly.

You could perhaps explain it to me.

[Demonic Attorney]

Discussion usually works better when people make some attempt to have a sincere, reasonable conversation with one another instead of engaging in an interminable contest of one-upsmanship to try to land the best sarcastic zinger.  I'm hopeful that there's more of substance that can be said about Snapcaster Mage, but if I'm proven wrong through another "Oh-no-you-di-n't!" exchange, I will assume the conversation has run its course and this thread will be closed.