TheManaDrain.com
September 18, 2020, 09:31:51 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: 5C Stax - A Forgotten Diamond or a Hopeless Dream?  (Read 18885 times)
TheShop
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 552


Coming live from tourney wasteland!


View Profile Email
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2011, 08:21:41 am »

You are absolutely right.  The issue I am attempting to point out(feebly, I admit) is that those subsequent spheres are not resolving/staying in play and a window of opportunity is created for us to get blown out by a trygon.  I believe that with power blue packing bob and trygon, that thorn leaves the deck too venerable.

On lodestone, I would rather play nearly anything else in the deck on turn 1 than a lodestone golem.  Because if they counter the sphere and I have 4 mana, I will likely be able to cast chalice plus an additional sphere.  Lodestone being countered or destroyed early is a massive tempo loss.

My thesis:  there are not enough relevant spheres to consistently keep blue off their hate if endless spheres is the gameplan given the current hate package.  We can either attempt to tune the deck or wait for them to run less hate.  If we are planning on changing the deck, I vote we start with thorn, but panthers and even possibly lodestone are on the bargaining table.
Logged
GNU
Basic User
**
Posts: 22


View Profile Email
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2011, 04:33:14 pm »

Have been thinking the same thing, even more so after the success of the MUD at Worlds and the gush bob decks. So firstly we need to identfy the cards we are currently failing to combat, before we can even begin to access what cards are not pulling their weight. The 2 cards that obv stand out are Dark Confindant & trygon, which thorn fails to affect.

So how do we combat these cards? Do we continue with the mindset we are just gonna keep them off the table or play things like trike, dup or hellkite to kill them where they stand???

I'm thinking of going back to playing Red Staxs. Whilst welder is great against shop & control, the mana base is far from as consistant and that is a problem.
Logged
madmanmike25
Basic User
**
Posts: 719


Lord Humungus, Ruler of the Wasteland


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2011, 07:24:14 pm »

Quote
My thesis:  there are not enough relevant spheres to consistently keep blue off their hate if endless spheres is the gameplan given the current hate package.

Is this only relative to 5c Stax, or would you say this idea carries over for MUD decks as well???  That would be interesting to discuss.

GNU, of the cards you suggested I'm still a huge fan of Trike.  He's Jace proof as well.  5c decks could easily run 1 Trike and 1 Dupe to make Tinker/DT/Vamp even better.
Logged

Team Lowlander:  There can be only a few...

The dead know only one thing: it is better to be alive.
TheWhiteDragon
Basic User
**
Posts: 1644


ericdm69@hotmail.com MrMiller2033 ericdm696969
View Profile WWW
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2011, 08:26:52 pm »

The thing about Lodestone is it affects the cards you fear most - grudge, jace, hurkylls, trygon - while not affecting your deck one bit.  If you would rather drop a sphere turn 1 over a golem because you think they will counter/destroy it, then you are assuming 2 things: 1) that they have turn 1 destruction that can somehow be played through golems effect easier than sphere/thorn, and 2) that they have turn 1 FoW/sabotage (because turn 1 pierce/snare will whack your sphere and do nothing to a golem).

If they DON'T counter your turn 1 threat, you still think you want a sphere over a golem?  I can't see why.  You like to continuously drop spheres to lock out the opponent, but I'm perfectly happy dropping a lodestone and maybe 1 other lock so they are dead before they ever hit enough mana to do damage.  Every turn they are dead is one less turn you need a redundant lock piece.
Logged

"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
TheShop
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 552


Coming live from tourney wasteland!


View Profile Email
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2011, 01:34:00 pm »

Quote
My thesis:  there are not enough relevant spheres to consistently keep blue off their hate if endless spheres is the gameplan given the current hate package.

Is this only relative to 5c Stax, or would you say this idea carries over for MUD decks as well???  That would be interesting to discuss.

GNU, of the cards you suggested I'm still a huge fan of Trike.  He's Jace proof as well.  5c decks could easily run 1 Trike and 1 Dupe to make Tinker/DT/Vamp even better.

MUD too given the deck's matchup against trygon Tezz..I mean bob gush...I mean... Any blue deck package trygon...
Logged
Magnus76
Basic User
**
Posts: 17


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2011, 03:17:16 am »

So I hear that I am quite alone with my general opinion but I also hear that others too feel concerned about shops, which is nice. I recognise many thoughts and feelings from my own head but I must give it another try to explain what is new with my thread.

For the last three years I have felt more and more stressed playing Workshops. Why? Well, everybody keeps telling that the format is getting faster and faster. And I think that is true in the sense that it has become much more precise and critical when choosing the right play. Before, I thought it meant you have to be playing the game faster, killing at turn 0 preferably or at least by end of turn 1. I have built versions where I have tried to force the level of destruction and threats to infinity (still trying to maintain consistency and mana stability of course), just because I want to be the fastest and strongest. Everybody else tried to be the fastest and strongest so that must be the truth? I have been playing Vintage for 16 years and followed the development of the format from The Abyss to the new Gush and Time Vault-era. This is the truths I have found:
1) You still draw 7 cards before the first main phase and you still have only one draw step (which is usually the only draw a shop-player gets). That means no matter how many threats I put in, I will only in the best case have four good, castable cards and three mana cards in my opening hand and I will (in the best case) only draw one new threat per turn.
2) 1st turn kills are much more frequent today than it was. However, in tournaments, they are still quite rare and most games will likely see at least five turns from each player.
3) The possibility to put up a show of art in playing things you did not think was possible before is a reality today.
4) Lack of consistency is hindering the format to be dominated by decks that focus on the first turn only (with Dredge as an exception).
5) The match is still about being the best out of three games, which will mean you will have three, often very different, games with the same opponent.

There is a recent article about Espresso stax on channelfireball. In the article the author shines his knowledge on how important speed is today and what he says is very politically correct in today's Vintage discussion. Last in the article comes a tournament report which basically says: it did not work as he wanted. I have felt the same sometimes and my own frustration was based on the feelings that:
1)   Even though I kept a good hand (some of it got FoWed away), I did not draw the necessary followups to maintain pressure and win the match.
2)   I felt back tied by the facts that I was needing to get the threat level high early. It was quite obvious when I was losing, I could just watch the enemy terror level. When he started to get that “So what's next?”-expression and my hand replied “Nothing serious really”, I would lose. The enemy defense strategy could move to offence and I had nothing to put up.
Please do not get me wrong here: I did well in national tourneys last year as well, playing Lodestone at the time. This year, however, I felt I would like to try something unorthodox so I started to think about what a 5c-shell would look like and, most of all, feel like.
To my surprise I am playing with a very much different feeling of play, and the result is not coming up worse, actually it is even better than before, winning the national championships for one. Sure I am probably losing a couple of games I would have won before due to low threat level in the beginning, but I am definitely winning many games I would have lost before. Those games are the ones that actually are more frequent, with not so exciting openings, but where both players have kept decent hands.
My prejudice that have developed during the last three years, that you have to be faster than light, has gotten a flaw, and I do not think that is a so solid truth anymore. The debate has become quite loud sometimes and the focus of the debate is to find the “one and only truth” out there. My intention of this thread was to put that debate into question and the theory that you always have to be fastest to win into question. – I know you have to be faster today than yesterday, but the question should still be asked on how you can find new balances between consistency, strength and speed. MUD is one kind of balance which focuses much on speed and I think MUD is the natural home for cards like Lodestone Golem.
So far I have only heard arguments like:
1)   You must include Lodestone Golem.
2)   You must include more spheres.
3)   You must include Chalice.
which is perhaps true if your reality relies on the popular way of observing Vintage. I have not heard anyone that has actually tested 5c against various decks in the current meta and come up with a proper analysis more than “I lost one game to an opponent that was faster than me.”. For me it is tournaments that count. To put up a deck that lasts for 7-8 matches (each in best of three games) and comes out as a winner. If it does I think you have to put up better arguments than saying I must build another deck.

White Dragon: I ran Mirror Universe too back in 1994-95. You do not have to exaggerate your loath by bringing up arguments not even worth commenting.
Logged
desolutionist
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1130



View Profile Email
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2011, 08:37:32 am »

Lodestone Golem aside, Phyrexian Metamorph is insane!  Has anyone considering playing Time Vault/Key, with the chance of "stealing a piece" via Metamorph?
Logged

Join the Vintage League!
Prospero
Aequitas
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 4854



View Profile
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2011, 08:48:21 am »

Lodestone Golem aside, Phyrexian Metamorph is insane!  Has anyone considering playing Time Vault/Key, with the chance of "stealing a piece" via Metamorph?

When you played Vinnie in that top four the N.Y.S.E. Lite he had them in his Fish deck.
Logged

"I’ll break my staff,
Bury it certain fathoms in the earth,
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
I’ll drown my book."

The Return of Superman

Prospero's Art Collection
XxtSundaybxX
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 321


View Profile Email
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2011, 10:46:33 pm »

Lodestone Golem aside, Phyrexian Metamorph is insane!  Has anyone considering playing Time Vault/Key, with the chance of "stealing a piece" via Metamorph?

I wondered this myself, but it just seems extremely situational. A shop player wants to be applying pressure as fast and as heavily as possible. You don't want to be drawing one of the two pieces when you could be drawing a threat to lock down your opponent.  Playing those cards in your deck deter you from your actual goal, no matter how "cute" that might be the handful of times you pull it off.
Logged

Team East Coast Wins
yespuhyren
Basic User
**
Posts: 727


I AM the Jester!

poolguyjason@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2011, 11:41:05 am »

Neither is strong enough to merit being included in Stax, as ever card in the deck has be individually strong.  While Workshop decks are synergistic, every good workshop player has had to win matches where your goal is to force one spell on to the board for the win.  If I played Workshop, Time Vault, and it got forced, I'd assume I'd already won.
Logged

Team Blitzkrieg:  The Vintage Lightning War.

TK: Tinker saccing Mox.
Jamison: Hard cast FoW.
TK: Ha! Tricked you! I'm out of targets
TheWhiteDragon
Basic User
**
Posts: 1644


ericdm69@hotmail.com MrMiller2033 ericdm696969
View Profile WWW
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2011, 09:02:07 pm »

to be fair, a time vault with a ramped up smokestack or tangle wires is a serious beating.
Logged

"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
desolutionist
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1130



View Profile Email
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2011, 09:57:11 pm »

yespuhyren, Skullclamp, Goblin Welder, and Swords aren't individually strong yet they sometimes make the cut into "Stax"/Workshop decks.
Logged

Join the Vintage League!
yespuhyren
Basic User
**
Posts: 727


I AM the Jester!

poolguyjason@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2011, 07:42:35 pm »

You can play Time vault.  I guarantee you it WILL win you games, you WILL be able to metamorph the key sometime and go infinite.  That isn't the point, however.  The point is will it win you as many games as the card you are cutting.  There should never be a card in the deck that isn't broken, and I feel that cutting something broken for a situationally broken Time Vault is futile.  

yespuhyren, Skullclamp, Goblin Welder, and Swords aren't individually strong yet they sometimes make the cut into "Stax"/Workshop decks.

I'm not against rogue cards, I'm one of the biggest proprietors of unique and random cards in decks.  It is like Portcullis, Null Brooch, Crawlspace and Helm of Possession.  Extremely strong in the right situation, but almost too situational to be used.  And all cards I've played in tournaments and tested in thousands of games.

5c stax is a different story from playing a workshop creation.  I'd readily play time vauit in a sop deck that wasn't 5c stax.

I still play 4x Jester's Cap maindeck in my Vintage deck, and I have 4x CHalice and Trinisphere in the sideboard instead of the main.  I just haven't posted it here because the list isn't up for discussion, and I don't want to deal with people's comments that it's a n00b deck and how they know more about shops than I do.  I stopped defending my Jester's Cap creations years ago Very Happy
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 11:27:21 am by yespuhyren » Logged

Team Blitzkrieg:  The Vintage Lightning War.

TK: Tinker saccing Mox.
Jamison: Hard cast FoW.
TK: Ha! Tricked you! I'm out of targets
StanleyAugust
Basic User
**
Posts: 279


View Profile Email
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2011, 07:27:57 am »

As much as I love 5c Stax I think the time for it isn't now. With such a diverse metagame it's hard to build a streamlined 5c Stax which has a decent matchup against the field. That said, I do think that we have a lot of options against one of the best decks right now, Dredge.

I have been playing a lot of Stax - and 5c Stax as well - lately, and it's definitely not bad, it's just not that good. I think mono red Stax is better at the moment, but if we're to start somewhere, I'd recommend using Nihil Spellbomb and Expedition Map main deck aswell as a singleton Bazaar of Baghdad.

The main issue as I see it, is that Vintage is pretty fast right now, and the "best lock", Smokestack + Crucible, is, ahem, pretty slow.
Logged
BruiZar
Basic User
**
Posts: 990



View Profile
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2011, 03:05:28 am »

The thing about lodestone golem is that it is a tempo card. I'd compare it to something like tempo thresh in legacy. It's a card that gives you a window of opportunity that you have to use to get your 20 points of damage through. The reason why the opener of this thread doesn't likelodestone golem, is because he doesn't want to take advantage of that window of opportunity by sealing the game through damage. He wants to have 'fun' locking someone out instead of winning. It's like playing Delver of Secrets a hand full of Daze/counter backup, and then forgetting to attack 3 times. By the that time, you've essentially lost the game.

Magic is very much a 'timeline game', the way RTS games such as age of empires and starcraft are timeline games. Failing to take advantage of momentum (for example: because you want to build up your base and make it cute) will lead to failure.

Also, demonic tutor and vampiric tutor are bad. They take away a lot of mana and set you back too much to warrant a silverbullet package. You don't run these kinds of cards in a deck that can't properly use its entire mana base to cast them in the first place. The only reason why I would want to play a colored version of stax is because of Balance, Bob and Welder. I don't even like tinker, because if you have a blue source, a wasteland and a workshop, you have 5 mana at your disposal but you still can't play the tinker. If you have any sphere effect in play, you're making life even harder for yourself. That said, if you are running 5 color lands, you are likely going to play tinker, but tinker is really only useful if you have a broken silverbullet like Sundering Titan in your deck, which I don't like because it makes the deck less consistent.

All in all, if I were to play a colored workshop list, I would play something with welders and barbarian rings. I would probably cut black unless I could take advantage of Urborg (which makes yourmana base much more consistent due to workshops/bazaar). I would also include lodestone golem and start pulling in wins where I have created a window of opportunity through tempo plays. I would not play Wurmcoil Engine, but would trade it for Precursor golem because its cheaper and puts more power on the table, while also working better with cards such as goblin welder and tangle wire. 9 power is about the same you would get if you would cast tinker, but now you can reliably cast it for 5 colorless mana, without the pains of sorcery+blue, and you can play more of them. I would drop smokestack all together or atleast reduce the number of smokestacks, because its not a tempo play, but a slow inevitibility play. Inevitibility plays generally cost a lot of time and time is not a resource you want to spoil. I would run Null Rod as well, since you won't need so much artifact hate, and it helps protect it self from hurkylls recall/rebuild because it shuts down moxen. Your moxen are better anyway, because you have goblin welder to trade them for real cards.

Logged
Magnus76
Basic User
**
Posts: 17


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2011, 12:22:32 pm »

@BruiZar:
I do not quite follow you. You address me in 3:rd person to get on top of me? Sorry but I am not after getting put in place or to put anyone in place.

Yes it is true that I like fun. Maybe you do not? (In which case I feel sorry for you.) But having fun is not my hypothesis or even my question. My hypothesis (that really surprised me in the beginning of this year) is that you do not have to be lightning-fast to have a good chance to beat lightning-decks. A consistent deck can be just as good, if you know which hands to keep. My explanation (built on the experiences from tourneys this year) is that Magic is not black or white. You will not ALWAYS face the worst enemy start that will ruin your chances to stay in the game, say five rounds. As I have noticed you will MOST LIKELY stay in the game for at least five rounds for two out of three games.

As I think I have written many times: LODESTONE GOLEM IS GOOD. You do not have to take any offence or suspect otherwise. I think MUD with 4xLodestone can come up in a great variety and they are definitely Tier 1 imo. I am not avoiding Lodestone, I just do not think he is good in this build (by arguments written many times already). He is a Stax-piece and I know quite a lot about tempo cards. He is a tempo card against me for MUD since I am including colored spells which the MUD player is not.
Also I feel that you and everybody else is referring to Lodestone Golem in way that it seems like a 100 % chance that the MUD-player will resolve a Lodestone Golem T1 and that the MUD-player also always wins the flip. This was at least not true when I played Lodestone myself and it is equally not true when I meet MUD-players. If you always bring up Lodestone Golem in an upset way, claiming that a T1-Golem is so good and so likely if you just include him in your deck, I can not really take it seriously.

I agree with you on Tinker, it has not been so strong. Even though it gets answers, enables Welder, sometimes finish the game, I feel three non-shop mana, in this build (without real bombs), is too much. I also agree with Wurmcoil, I have replaced him with Trike (mostly because Bob and Jace).

I do not agree at all with the tutors however, they are actually what makes the deck so flexible. I understand that you want me to build mono-R or MUD instead but this thread is a discussion about 5c-stax. The black pieces in 5c is the tutors, and they are there for a reason. In my opinion, they serve the purpose of the deck: consistency. True, they are not faster than artifacts, but as written above: I am not sure you have to be that fast if you can catch up with consistency. The tutors gets me what I want, when I want it.

The question is: Has anyone REALLY tested 5c? What is your feeling about its pros and cons? And I mean not by playing the deck as stressed as a MUD-player has to play his deck, but really soft and thoughtfull? I have heard fear so far, in my ear it sounds like my own thoughts a year ago. Now I have tested the 5c-deck, I am not playing in panic anymore, and I am winning.
Logged
TheShop
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 552


Coming live from tourney wasteland!


View Profile Email
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2011, 04:07:59 pm »

The original intent of the 5 color list was to incrementally lock the opponent out of the game.  That strategy necessitated the use of spells with a cost if 1X(x being a colored mana) at that time.

Since the desired incremental lock effect can be supplied without the use of colors(in a more consistent manner) due to the printing of so many more colorless lock pieces- I am in the camp that the intent of the deck is being fulfilled elsewhere.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 04:19:28 pm by TheShop » Logged
Qasur
Basic User
**
Posts: 29


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2011, 05:05:31 pm »

I'm in the camp that MUD lists aren't that great, and mostly because of two main reasons:

1) You need a color these days to help versus other decks. Being colorless it not enough. There aren't colorless options that matter quick enough. No REB, Nature's Claim, etc. You really do need something here.

2) Lodestone was amazing until the meta showed up. It was an explosive creature and decisive to early lists that didn't know how to answer his amazing power, and it only got better with Steel Hellkite, Metamorph, and Wurmcoils. However, the meta evolved and found a way through it. Part of the reason is that Lodestone is so sexy in a MUD list with more artifact creatures, which also then wants to run Thorn of Amethyst. They go hand-in-hand almost. Problem is, once you beat Thorn, you weaken Lodestone and it suddenly makes 8 cards of your deck much weaker.*

2a) I want to add that the printing (and subsequent use) of Spell Pierce also increased the playability of Lodestone because it could not counter it. However, it also forces the MUD player's hand if blue goes first -- the MUD player has to cast Lodestone if it's in their opening hand or fear their 2Sphere or Thorn getting countered by FoW/SP. But, once you commit all your 4 starting mana resources to Lodestone, if opponent has FoW (or BStorm/ARecall into it), then you have lost the game that easily.

I have been favoring 5C Stax as option to return, but it obviously needs to be updated. The assessment that "old 5C lists that lost are what you want to return" (or whatever) is pretty true. However, a lot of the meta has changed as well.

The Shop hasn't touched on many topics that he could have. We both play Stax a lot and have been playing the deck for years and years. It's a solid archetype and has *a lot* of theory for just about every strategy. It's a great deck because only real loyalists understand the underlying reasons that Stax can beat decks. One major reason is that it uses artifact lock components to slow down the opponent and original builds of Stax then went on to follow those artifacts lock pieces with colored-lock pieces that sealed the deal, but were more expensive and needed a turn or two to resolve.

One of the premises that The Shop has a problem with is how a 14 land deck (of which those lands only tap for 1 mana) is losing out to a deck with 18+ lands (generally 28+ mana sources) of which tap for more than 1 mana is losing to it. An early build of Stax used to run cards like Choke and Chains of Mephistopheles. Later builds even ran In The Eye Of Chaos too.

So, the suggestion to go back to 5Color would really need a reason to dip into all 5 colors. Arguably, adding in like 5 Mountains to a MUD list and just putting REB in the board and Goblin Welder in over Panther is better. Dropping Thorn would go a lot further for you to, even after adding more creatures. 3 Crucible of Worlds would be better in those Red-MUD builds too because one thing those MUD lists lose is the ability to recycle Wasteland/Stripmine. One of the feared aspects of Stax is gone -- hate on the mana base.* But if you want 5-Color, then you need a reason, and there are some good ones:

I would suggest any 5-Color build look at Goblin Welder, Chains of Mephistopheles, Choke, In The Eye of Chaos, Crop Rotation x2 and some main-deck artifact/enchantment hate. No Thorns and no Lodestones. You're playing to maximize your turn 1 opportunities by trying to put down 2+ lock components, or at least threaten *stronger* locks than Thorn/Sphere/Chalice on turn 1.

I love some Chalice of the Void, and The Shop and I agree/disagree on its use in 5-Color because 5-Color lists like to utilize their moxen for their colors, so sometimes that opening-hand Chalice at 0 is the wrong play. Despite this, I still like it and really think versus blue decks (and some other decks in general) that forcing Chalice Of The Void @ 2counters is probably more important than 0 or even 1. My argument is that Chalice @ 0 in 5C is sometimes symmetrical and sometimes not, in the opponent's favor (locking you out of colored mana). Chalice @ 1 can lock out X spells from the opponent's deck (where X can be 10+ sometimes). And this can be important versus TPS, but that's a different story. Versus Blue control decks, Chalice @ 1 will counter Spell Pierce, BStorm, Ponder, Serum Visions, etc... but it's not actually stopping permanents hitting the table, like Bob, or stopping *real* threats, like Ancient Grudge and Hurkyl's Recall (and when it matters, Demonic Tutor and Time Vault)... and you'll notice all of those threats cost 2, so Chalice @ 2 really makes the opponent gear themselves to keeping it off the table.

And so with the disagreement on the use of Chalice @ 0 (and 1) also hurting yourself in 5-Color, I'm a proponent of 2-3 Ratchet Bomb instead. It also doubles by allowing you to hate on Oath and other decks, like some early aggro lists.

I don't have any list to show or talk about, but I would suggest it have Goblin Welder, Chains of Mephistopheles, Nature's Claim and/or Sylvok Replica, 2x Crop Rotation, and the lands need to have 1x Bazaar of Baghdad (minimum). Other uses of colored spells can very, but at least 1 Tinker, 1 Demonic Tutor, 1 Demonic Consultation, and 1 Vampiric Tutor. I'd also run Sundering Titan over any other threat, but having a Steel Hellkite, Duplicant, and/or Triskelion isn't bad. I don't like Karn any more. I think his usefulness has dropped away other than being a mox-monkey, in which 5cc is too expensive Smile

Anyways, this has become "TL;DR"...

*It's surprising that MUD lists are doing well without Crucible of Worlds in the main. Crucible Stip/Waste can seal the deal just as well as stacking up 100 spheres. 5Color at least hits the opponent's mana base through increased spells AND land destruction/moxen hate. MUD only does one, and that weakens the deck overall. Lodestone just isn't enough because it's almost just-as-good to follow it with a Crucible to recycle wastelands. Being able to replay wastelands is very important, even if Forcing the opponent to bust a fetchland so you can hit the land they fetch.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 05:14:27 pm by Qasur » Logged
punki
Basic User
**
Posts: 67


View Profile Email
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2011, 06:43:09 am »

I played 5c shops a few tournaments in a row months ago (with sylvok replica, choke, ...) my reports are somewhere on these forums. I did quite well with the deck, but found that it has the following weaknesses:

against blue based decks: These decks have evolved to beat 13sphere decks. Being in the role of the stax deck and NOT using all those spheres and the manabase to quickly deploy them onto the table, gives them a lot of breeding room. sometimes too much breeding room to deploy their strategy. Also now with mental misstep goblin welder becomes a liability. They now have 8 free counters to stop him and most builds have maindeck lightning bolts to get rid of him.

Against MUD: having welders, mox monkeys, replica, maindeck ancient grudge and maybe balance and the tutors to find them alongside crop rotation and crucible to get them into a wastelock make the matchup look like it is in your favour. But it's actually quite a strugle. They can often lose by having to many dead cards like spheres where you have real threats for the mirror. But you are weaker to their strategy than the blue decks. You run less reliable manasources. Blue decks have fetches and basics to build their manabase. We have shops, but shops do not allow us to reliably cast the cards we need most against MUD. A few spheres and a wasteland or a fast clock like lodestome golem make it very difficult. The matchup is very drawdependent and the dieroll is also too important.

I only play 5cc if I expect a field with lot of random aggro, christmas beats (decks with a lot of artifact hate) and ichorid because I'm more confident with this deck against those decks than I am with MUD or red stax.
Logged
Slayn001
Basic User
**
Posts: 80



View Profile Email
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2012, 04:03:38 pm »

Magnus, it was great to meet you at BoM. I was the American guy who wanted your list. I put it together when I go home but couldn't ever bring myself to play it. A couple weeks ago i decided to play it at the latest top deck games event, and wasn't satisfied with it performance. But I persevered and looked to see if there any changes I could make that would be improvements. I decided on some changes, and brought it with me to GenCon to play at Vintage Champs. Unfortunately I got talked into playing bomberman and went 2-2 drop.  I decided to play 5c shops the next day in a small event (27 people ) for 3 from the vaults boxes. And let me say, the deck performed just as unexpected it would,
Bringing me the victory. It was a 5 round Swiss with a cut to the top 8, and in the swiss I went 3-1-1 with my only loss being to noble fish. In the top 8, I beat bomberman, dredge, and oath to secure the prize. The changes I made to your BoM list were

-1 smokestack
-1 gorilla shaman

+1 cavern of souls
+1 phyrexian metamorph

Board:

-2 thorn
+1 pithing needle
+1 tormod's crypt

Please ignore most of the posters in this thread who are Arguing with you, they either don't understand shops or are just bad at magic in general. This list is quite competitive, and clearly shows that shops can be a deck with as much subtlety as any blue deck. I would like to see what else you have come up with and look forward to seeing you at next years BoM
Logged

Team Topdeck Games.
Magnus76
Basic User
**
Posts: 17


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: August 27, 2012, 11:28:50 am »

Hi there and thanks for your post! Yes, it was very nice meeting you and your friends at BoM, if nothing VERY unexpected happens I will definitely go next year, it was totally awesome!

Here is my list that went 6-2-1 in the main event (lost third and ninth to Bomberman/Stonforge Control, if I would have won the ninth I would be in top-8):
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland

Board
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Sylvok Replica
2 Triskelion
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

My reflections on the deck after the tournaments were these:
1) It it very strong against shops (esp MUD). Ancient Grudge and Sylvok Replica is an amazing pair.
2) Fish is difficult but winable (lost one, drew one).
3) I was unprepared for Batterskull which imo is a very strong deck against this deck (has a high percentage to reach six permanents round 2).
4) I never used Chains of Meph.
5) Leyline is maybe not the best answer to Dredge at the moment (many Dredge-lists runs Chains and Natures Claim in the board). Often I loose the first, MAYBE win the second and then likely loose the third (I start with Leyline, enemy plays land-bounce/crash). Leyline i not enough to secure the game, a sphere is a must. On the other hand: modern Dredge is not as fast as it was and maybe Tormod/Nihil is worth testing?
6) Thorn of Amethyst is not as strong anymore with combo less popular and Bob-control more popular. A resolved Bob can generally only be dealt with six-drops and Balance, Smokestack is not enough.
7) The deck should be careful with all 1-drops not to make Mental Misstep a good counter. You often love to see Crop Rotation in your hand but it is risky. Against shops, however, it is amazing.

At the moment, I am playing around with the following changes:
-1 Gorilla Shaman
(-1 Sundering Titan)
and the following options
+1 Maze of Ith
or
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
or
+1 Cavern of Souls
(and/or
+1 Triskelion)

I like Maze because it is uncounterable, possible to fetch with Crop Rotation and wins you valuable time against Fish, Batterskull, etc. (Maybe I am getting paranoid about Batterskull?)

I have not tested Cavern of Souls so much yet, what is your impressions?

Phyrexian Metamorph is nice but is also only a copy and needs a original. If the enemy is going all in it is great, but cards that do stuff on their own (Uba Mask, Orb of Dreams, etc.) is more productive if the table has run blank of cards on both sides. Don't get me wrong, I like him, I am just thinking about pros and cons. What is your idea with choosing him instead of, let's say Triskelion #2? (a card that I believe is very strong right now)

Taking out a Smokestack is interesting, I have been in and out on this one. Maybe -1 Smokestack and +1 Crop Rotation could be something? (with the Maze/Cavern-option above).

In the board I am thinking of abandoning Leyline and adding +2 Tormod and +3 Nihil Spellbomb. I also want to add a Pyroclasm and maybe cut the Thorns.

As you can see, not much has happened (vacation and work has put Vintage aside), but I am now taking it up again and will play more frequently in the near future.

I wish you all the best!
Logged
jpg
Basic User
**
Posts: 3


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: August 27, 2012, 11:58:22 am »

It could be VERY risky to up the amount of Crop Rotations. There are a lot of Mental Missteps running around and that loss would be very hard to come back from.
Logged
Bibendum
Basic User
**
Posts: 351


Majority rule, don't work in mental institutions


View Profile Email
« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2012, 09:43:51 pm »

So I have been toying with a list for a bit, general idea is the same but I have a few "cute tricks." Looking at your list I think its much tighter then mine to be honest  but for arguments sake Ill throw up the 61 I was going to go with this weekend and the reasoning behind most of the list.

61 Cards

Land (18)
4 Shop
4 Waste
4 City
3 Gemstone
1 Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Bazaar

Fast Mana (9)
5 Mox
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

Creatures (10)
4 Goblin Welder
2 Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Sylvok Replica

Artifacts (17)
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Memory Jar
1 Trinisphere

Spells/Brokenness (7)
1 Balance
1 Tinker
1 VT
1 DT
1 Recall
1 Grudge
1 Crop Rotation

Sideboard
2 Replica
4 Tormods Crypt
2 Graffdiggers Cage
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grudge
2 Choke
1 Razormane Masticore
1 In The Eye Of Chaos


The Choices:
1. Why Engineered Explosive/Ratchet Bomb split? I really feel that EE's ability to take out Oath the turn it comes down is huge. The reason its not 2/0 is because EE does not play well with Welder. Its inability to be recurred for value takes some of its punch away. The split has been really solid with the tutors as well.
 
2. 1 Less Smokestack and 1 Less Crucible for 2 Metamorphs. Not having a constant way to hold off Trygon's without them in the main was annoying and this was the easiest solution. I am still fooling with the spots here but i still find mox monkey underwhelming.

3. Sideboard choices:  Pithing needle, I know revokers exist and it is a strange singleton but being able to tutor for it to shut off other shops wastelands or landstills factories. Before we jump all over me i know it shuts off my wastes as well but I feel protecting my colors is very important. 

In The Eye Of Chaos is a favorite of mine, while I am not sure if it just ends up as a win more card or an actual factor, I would like to test it more but for now I think it is a house against a few matchup's and with people switching to grudge/Recall most can't handle it being resolved.

Choke: I like stopping blue and it brings me back to the good ol' days when hate cards were hate Very Happy but in all seriousness I feel that it is pretty solid against the majority of the field right now.

Razormane Masticore: I really think this guy is underrated vs Fish and Other Shop Decks. He can eat Golem's and Revoker's, His pitch effect has synergy with Welder and he's not a bad clock all on his own.

Tormod's Crypt: I like the recursion instead of the Leyline, though being able to cast a Leyline is strong in this deck.


I don't think I have too many other strange choices in the deck. I'd love feedback, I took my list from Magnus' original list and made some changes. Cheers!


Logged

The Going Get Tough, The Tough Get Debt
Don't Pay Attention, Pay The Rent
Next Of Kins Pay For Your Sins
A Little Faith Should Keep Us Safe
Slayn001
Basic User
**
Posts: 80



View Profile Email
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2012, 03:43:42 pm »

Magnus,

I boarded the chains in quite a few times, but I really failed to see much use from them. I am hesitant to cut them only because if i do stick one on the field it becomes amazing.

The metamorph is honestly a must. I agree that without something on the board already it is a dead card, but this deck has so many targets of its own to copy, from welders to spheres to smokestacks, and With vintage becoming a more permanent based format,you have an almost endless Supply of targets from your opponents. It gives you Another out to tinker, or to any annoying creature/artifact your Opponent plays. Also you get a little utility against dredge as you can cast it an refuse to copy anything, killing bridges.

The sundering titan is actually your best win condition against fish decks. They are usually pretty mana light as it is an with a resolved Titan, it's hard for them come back.

I agree that the thorns are not good,  which is why I cut them from the board to add the tormods  and the needle. I think with 4 wastes, 1 strip, 1 tabernacle, 4 leyline, 1 crypt, 1 needle that you have enough hate against dredge.

Cavern of souls is excellent, with the number of missteps running around ts nice to be able to force a welder to resolve, also all your artifacts are constructs, so you can force a replica or trike or whatever if you need to.

I would like to maybe add a maze of ith, but this deck is already as tight as it can get. It took me ages and lots of discussion to decide to cut a smokestack for the morph, I can't possibly think what you would remove for a maze.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 03:50:50 pm by Slayn001 » Logged

Team Topdeck Games.
TurnOneTSphere
Basic User
**
Posts: 23



View Profile Email
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2012, 04:20:53 pm »

I have been testing the list that Slayn was playing at GenCon after discussing it with him there. The Metamorph has been phenomenal and i have never had it sit in my hand for more than a few turns before finding a game-changing use for it.

I still have yet to find a spot for the Maze of Ith, but i have been testing with 2 crucibles, as i would see more than one far too often while running 3, and this seems like an okay card to cut for an open spot in the main. Changes that i have been testing from Slayn's list have been:

- 1 Crucible of Worlds
- 1 Sundering Titan
+ 1 Karn, Silver Golem
+ 1 Myr Battlesphere

The Sundering Titan is awesome with Welder but Myr Battlesphere is another card that most decks have a trouble coming back from and is pretty hard to deal with. Having the automatic 4-8 damage a turn plus 4 extra Welder targets is huge, especially when you have multiple Welders on board or a Metamorph to copy the Battlesphere.
I also decided to test Karn in the main to add a little more utility. Blowing up your opponents moxen or turning you Spheres, Tangle Wires, Crucibles, and Smokestacks into some mid-range beats has helped a ton. Although with the amount of Lightning Bolts and Swords to Plowshares, I am still not sure if this will continue to be such a relevant option as it makes your relevant artifacts easy to deal with.

I have also been loving the addition of Cavern of Souls to the list. Being able to stick the welder without any problems is key.
Logged
Slayn001
Basic User
**
Posts: 80



View Profile Email
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2012, 06:05:10 pm »

Just to keep this alive. At the recent NEV in long island, i placed in the top 4 in a 29 person field that included 14-15 workshops decks. I was running this list without any changes, and i feel that had i played little tigher in the semi finals and been a little more willing to fight harder, i would have have progressed to the finals which i fully expect i would have won, as this deck has a good matchup against traditional shops ( out of the 7 rounds i played, 6 were against shop opponents ).
Logged

Team Topdeck Games.
A.-1.
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 828


Team RST


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2012, 06:13:03 pm »

There were 30 people with 14 of them on Shops. The breakdown was 7 Espresso, 3 Martello, 2 Mono Red, 1 Metalworker, and you.

If you had made the finals, I expect that I would have won. I don't know what you consider traditional Shops, but I was on Martello.
Logged

Please make an attempt to use proper grammar.
Slayn001
Basic User
**
Posts: 80



View Profile Email
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2012, 08:01:13 pm »

Rob, while I agree that the forge master package makes it a little different from an espresso list, I feel that all the mono brown lists are traditional. It's an interesting question as to which is superior head to head, and I feel our opinions will be different barring testing.
Logged

Team Topdeck Games.
A.-1.
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 828


Team RST


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2012, 09:09:16 pm »

Yeah, I can only make assumptions at this point. I haven't tested with or against 5c in several years or with Espresso much since Martello either.

Theoretically, I'd guess Espresso beats Martello. Martello beats 5c. 5c beats Espresso. And I have no idea how Mono Red fits into all of that. Those are all just wild guesses though. The only "testing" I do anymore are tournaments.

Maybe someone with extensive testing results can chime in. I'm curious to see how the Shop variants fair versus one another.
Logged

Please make an attempt to use proper grammar.
Prospero
Aequitas
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 4854



View Profile
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2012, 09:36:45 pm »

Yeah, I can only make assumptions at this point. I haven't tested with or against 5c in several years or with Espresso much since Martello either.

Theoretically, I'd guess Espresso beats Martello. Martello beats 5c. 5c beats Espresso. And I have no idea how Mono Red fits into all of that. Those are all just wild guesses though. The only "testing" I do anymore are tournaments.

Maybe someone with extensive testing results can chime in. I'm curious to see how the Shop variants fair versus one another.

I don't think 5C beats Espresso, especially post board.  Serrated Arrows, Sphere of Resistance and Lodestone Golem are all awesome against that deck.  5C might be able to go 50/50 against Marinara, but 5C is a relic of the past.
Logged

"I’ll break my staff,
Bury it certain fathoms in the earth,
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
I’ll drown my book."

The Return of Superman

Prospero's Art Collection
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.097 seconds with 21 queries.