Interest in Modified B/R List Tournament?

[Yare]

Piggybacking off the "old school" Vintage tournaments from a while ago, I was wondering if there would be any interest in a tournament featuring a modified B/R list, probably something along the lines of:

Time Vault is banned
Mana Drain is restricted
Dark Ritual is restricted
Mishra's Workshop is restricted
Bazaar of Baghdad is restricted

Assume the tournament would otherwise be a normal unsanctioned Vintage tournament with the traditional entry fee, proxies, and a reasonable prize (say an unlimited Mox). Would you travel for and attend such a tournament?

[Fortune]

This seems much more open-ended and accessible. It would at the very least force people to look at different strategies.

Would I travel for this? Hell yes.

[bluemage55]

Time Vault is banned
Mana Drain is restricted
Dark Ritual is restricted
Mishra's Workshop is restricted
Bazaar of Baghdad is restricted

Wouldn't Force of Will and Gush dominate such a format?  Smmenen's Worlds list, for example, is literally untouched while other archetypes take a beating.

[Samite Healer]

Let's just make it a Vintage Highlander tournament!  Restrict it all and ban Time Vault.

[diopter]

Absolutely zero interest in this format. I like blue mirrors and all but cutting off a third to a half of interested parties from the format is selfish.

[diopter]

Time Vault is banned
Mana Drain is restricted
Dark Ritual is restricted
Mishra's Workshop is restricted
Bazaar of Baghdad is restricted

Wouldn't Force of Will and Gush dominate such a format?  Smmenen's Worlds list, for example, is literally untouched while other archetypes take a beating.

Don't you see, that's the point! Neuter blue combo-control's enemies so that every top 8 match is the blue mirror.

[Samite Healer]

At the very least, you'd have to also restrict Gush and Force of Will.  Even then, I'd have to find a compelling reason why a deck wouldn't still play blue for Time Walk, Ancestral, and a whole bunch of one-of's that are amazing.

[Yare]

You guys are focusing too much on the specific cards chosen. The point is more to just shuffle things up. Let's say Force of Will and Gush were restricted as well, as suggested. Does that make a difference?

[Prospero]

I'm willing to run this as the side event for the N.Y.S.E. at the end of the month.  I'll note it on the advertisement for the event in the other forum.

[Yare]

I'm willing to run this as the side event for the N.Y.S.E. at the end of the month.  I'll note it on the advertisement for the event in the other forum.

I expect that participants would likely just pull the cards they can't run out of their decks and run their "normal" decks otherwise (if possible). Or just not play at all. Participants would need to prepare for this event with such drastic changes, something that I don't think people will do for a side event.

[Prospero]

I'm willing to run this as the side event for the N.Y.S.E. at the end of the month.  I'll note it on the advertisement for the event in the other forum.

I expect that participants would likely just pull the cards they can't run out of their decks and run their "normal" decks otherwise (if possible). Or just not play at all. Participants would need to prepare for this event with such drastic changes, something that I don't think people will do for a side event.

I'm glad to see that you feel strongly about your idea.  As things stand now, I'm uncomfortable taking the financial risk of guaranteeing prize support for a tournament like this by running this as the main N.Y.S.E. for the month.  If you feel this strongly though, I can get you in touch with the various store owners you'd need to speak to in order to run the event, a judge who would potentially be interested in working your event and some people who may be able to sell you prize support.  If you feel strongly about this, you should act on it.  

[diopter]

From the B/R thread not three weeks ago.

It's probably best that you were up front about this being a blue-dominated format that you want to try in tournament context. It's a bad idea (imagine innovating without having to work around Shops - how boring!) but I dunno, maybe others share this sentiment and can provide more helpful suggestions for achieving your endgame (restrict Null Rod, Stony Silence, Gaddock Teeg?)

I'd like to see Bazaar restricted, Workshop restricted, and Time Vault banned. My prediction is that nothing will happen, however.

Calls to out a pillar via restrictions are lame and simple minded. This is the first time in a long time I feel as though a ton of options are viable in T1 and I would hate to see the delicate balance we currently have destroyed; especially when T1 is posed to start growing in population again. I have around six 1.5 players who wouldn't touch T1 three months ago ready to head to the next Waterbury.

While I appreciate the sentiment, I did not come to my above conclusion lightly.

You want every deck in this format to be blue?

As I've said to many others, that actually would be pretty great. Obviously would be a big change.

[chrispikula]

I think killing Shop decks completely is pretty terrible. I'd much rather ban Sphere of Resistance to spice things up than restrict Workshop. 

[dredgenought]

I have to agree with Mr. Pikula.
In my experience vintage dredge is a little lacking without the playset of bazaars.


I will be waiting for the Tichu side event to fire while this is going on.

[mikekilljoy]

I have to agree with Mr. Pikula.
In my experience vintage dredge is a little lacking without the playset of bazaars.


I will be waiting for the Tichu side event to fire while this is going on.

I'll 2nd that one. I'll even supply the game.

[Yare]

I'm willing to run this as the side event for the N.Y.S.E. at the end of the month.  I'll note it on the advertisement for the event in the other forum.

I expect that participants would likely just pull the cards they can't run out of their decks and run their "normal" decks otherwise (if possible). Or just not play at all. Participants would need to prepare for this event with such drastic changes, something that I don't think people will do for a side event.

I'm glad to see that you feel strongly about your idea.  As things stand now, I'm uncomfortable taking the financial risk of guaranteeing prize support for a tournament like this by running this as the main N.Y.S.E. for the month.  If you feel this strongly though, I can get you in touch with the various store owners you'd need to speak to in order to run the event, a judge who would potentially be interested in working your event and some people who may be able to sell you prize support.  If you feel strongly about this, you should act on it. 

I really don't have the time to organize an event and instead was hoping that there would be a positive reaction to this in the hopes that someone else might run one.

I expected some negative reactions, though not this overwhelmingly. I guess this answers the question for the time being.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Time Vault is banned
Mana Drain is restricted
Dark Ritual is restricted
Mishra's Workshop is restricted
Bazaar of Baghdad is restricted

Wouldn't Force of Will and Gush dominate such a format?  Smmenen's Worlds list, for example, is literally untouched while other archetypes take a beating.

Not if you ban both basic Islands.

[Nefarias]

Time Vault is banned
Mana Drain is restricted
Dark Ritual is restricted
Mishra's Workshop is restricted
Bazaar of Baghdad is restricted

Wouldn't Force of Will and Gush dominate such a format?  Smmenen's Worlds list, for example, is literally untouched while other archetypes take a beating.

Not if you ban both basic Islands.

Didn't that list only run one basic anyway?

[Fortune]

I think the idea here is to figure out if people would be interested in testing out the format under a different set of bannings/restrictions. To Chris' point, i think nixing Sphere over Workshop is a great idea.

The purpose of this exercise is to shake things up. To keep a high power level while increasing interactivity.

I think the discussion should focus more on what it would take to make this idea work rather than bashing Dave for coming with an interesting idea.

If sphere goes instead of workshop, other changes could be made as well e.g. narcomoeba restricted instead of bazaar.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

OK, so lemme get this right:

Time Vault banned; Mana Drain, Dark Ritual, Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad all restricted.

Time Vault being banned, oddly, I don't find that big a deal. Just means Voltaic Key stays home and Tezzeret has less interesting things to do (although tutoring for artifacts and making them 5/5 beatsticks is still good). (Incidentally, I beat Marske in a game on MWS last year when he had Vault-Key going off - I was playing Oath and locked him out of blue with Oath, and his Tinkerbot was Sphinx of the Steel Wind.. which is blue.. he had no way to win. Point is, even if they have it, they still have to win.)
Mana Drain being restricted isn't that big an issue unless your deck actually needs the mana boost it provides. Draining a Force is always nice, but realistically, I think most decks can find an easy substitute for Drain - Spell Pierce and Negate come to mind. Many Oath lists, for example, don't even bother with Drain. Its big deal is to be able to hardcast your threats - but if you run Show and Tell instead, you can bypass that.
Dark Ritual will be interesting. It will shake up TPS lists, which will probably rely on Red for the Rituals - and Manamorphose - and then just splash Black for tutors, Will and Tendrils.
Workshop, people have been calling to be re-restricted on and off again for some time now. Even with it gone though, Shop decks will likely function well enough as is. A crossbreed of Legacy and Vintage Smokestack-based lists (maybe I should just say Lodestone Golem-based instead, which seems more realistic?) will get you through. You still have Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Tolarian Academy.. and I'm sure someone will come up with a Cloudpost-based list. Think how broken that got in Modern.
Bazaar being restricted will make Dredge a little more interesting, and I can somehow see it running Crop Rotation to tutor up the one Bazaar, maybe in combination with Vesuva. There's also other ways to start it off - look at all the draw spells in Vintage. Burning Inquiry could end up making an appearance to replace it (doubtful, but hey, what happens when there's only one now?).

It just means people that want to play these decks will find other ways to do the same broken things that are almost as efficient - or, in some cases, won't make a difference at all.

Mindstab Thrull

[bluemage55]

It just means people that want to play these decks will find other ways to do the same broken things that are almost as efficient - or, in some cases, won't make a difference at all.

What it really does is restrict most of the pillars of Vintage... except for the newest (and currently dominant) pillar, Gush, which would remain completely intact.  Null Rod would also survive unscathed, but doesn't combat modern Gush all that well.

The obvious result would be Gush destroying everything else.

[Diakonov]

My "dream format" that I always tell people about is a rotating version of Vintage.  Imagine if 3 to 5 cards became restricted or banned every three months, while simultaneously unrestricting/unbanning 3 to 5 cards.  It would keep things fresh and interesting with tons of room for innovation, while still allowing us to play with our same old cards.

[Teps]

As much as I would love to play blue on blue all day, this ban/restrict list is very poor. Certain decks like Fish, Gush, Standstill, and Oath are nearly untouched while decks like dredge and shops are hurt significantly. I don't understand some bans, why time vault banned? Seems odd, as it isn't the only combo in the format. While it is the best combo, tinker + blightsteel till exists and is a bigger threat than vault key. The restriction of drain is also very odd, the card is not a 4 of to begin with and it won't hurt most decks other than like standstill and certain control decks. Ritual shuts down TPS decks which aren't dominant right now anyways but could be with the restriction of these cards.

As a dredge pilot, I can contest that running only 1 bazaar of baghdad is not feasible. Crop rotation does not make the cut when mental misstep/wasteland/strip mine are in a format. Restricting/Banning another card I wouldn't mind such as Dread Return. While the deck does do very broken interactions with bridges and cabal therapy, removing dread return would be the biggest pain for me

As much as I hate shops, restricting their key card wouldn't be fun either. While the deck is certainly playable, I rather not see shops struggling to build a janky verison of the brown decks while blue runs rampant. Restricting a card such as Chris said, would be interesting. Restrict Loadstone Golem over let's say Sphere might be interesting, makes the deck slower and could change the style of the deck (aggro with panthers back to smokestacks).

[Mindstab_Thrull]

I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that this is a bad idea. I'll put it this way..

Look at Legacy, previous versions of Extended, and Modern. They've all already given us ideas on what will happen to the format. Probably the biggest hit is going to be Storm, which will have to rely on red Rituals or High Tide in order to combo off - or Elves. Drain, Shop, and Bazaar don't exist in Legacy, and in the case of Drain, other cards can "relatively" easily take its place. Shop will probably add Mox Diamond, Cloudpost, or something - I could see Flagstones of Trokair + Ghost Quarter to fetch more lands. Dredge will find itself actually casting spells with mana (! sacrilege!) and play more cards like Careful Study and Breakthrough.

Will Gush take over? I don't know, but I really don't think so. There's enough ways in the format - even if you just look at the cards that actually do see play - that every deck can handle it. Gush Storm? There's still Stifle and Mindbreak Trap, or Spheres or whatever. Even just paying attention while they go off will tell you where their bottleneck is so you know what to stop. There's still a mess of cheap artifacts, tutors and Tinker, to be able to pull up BSC and win first. Sure, the format will juggle a bit, and in the short term Gush may prevail - but in the long term, I think people will just do whatever always happens: they'll build to handle it, or the format will change (unrestrict X, Y, Z, and restrict Gush).

[bluemage55]

Look at Legacy, previous versions of Extended, and Modern. They've all already given us ideas on what will happen to the format. Probably the biggest hit is going to be Storm, which will have to rely on red Rituals or High Tide in order to combo off - or Elves. Drain, Shop, and Bazaar don't exist in Legacy, and in the case of Drain, other cards can "relatively" easily take its place. Shop will probably add Mox Diamond, Cloudpost, or something - I could see Flagstones of Trokair + Ghost Quarter to fetch more lands. Dredge will find itself actually casting spells with mana (! sacrilege!) and play more cards like Careful Study and Breakthrough.

None of those mediocre ideas stand any chance against a modern vintage Gush deck.

Will Gush take over? I don't know, but I really don't think so. There's enough ways in the format - even if you just look at the cards that actually do see play - that every deck can handle it. Gush Storm? There's still Stifle and Mindbreak Trap, or Spheres or whatever. Even just paying attention while they go off will tell you where their bottleneck is so you know what to stop. There's still a mess of cheap artifacts, tutors and Tinker, to be able to pull up BSC and win first. Sure, the format will juggle a bit, and in the short term Gush may prevail - but in the long term, I think people will just do whatever always happens: they'll build to handle it, or the format will change (unrestrict X, Y, Z, and restrict Gush).

If it was that easy to stop Gush, it would not be the dominant engine in Vintage.  Regardless, it's a single tournament, so there is no long term.

[Smmenen]

Look at Legacy, previous versions of Extended, and Modern. They've all already given us ideas on what will happen to the format. Probably the biggest hit is going to be Storm, which will have to rely on red Rituals or High Tide in order to combo off - or Elves. Drain, Shop, and Bazaar don't exist in Legacy, and in the case of Drain, other cards can "relatively" easily take its place. Shop will probably add Mox Diamond, Cloudpost, or something - I could see Flagstones of Trokair + Ghost Quarter to fetch more lands. Dredge will find itself actually casting spells with mana (! sacrilege!) and play more cards like Careful Study and Breakthrough.

None of those mediocre ideas stand any chance against a modern vintage Gush deck.

Will Gush take over? I don't know, but I really don't think so. There's enough ways in the format - even if you just look at the cards that actually do see play - that every deck can handle it. Gush Storm? There's still Stifle and Mindbreak Trap, or Spheres or whatever. Even just paying attention while they go off will tell you where their bottleneck is so you know what to stop. There's still a mess of cheap artifacts, tutors and Tinker, to be able to pull up BSC and win first. Sure, the format will juggle a bit, and in the short term Gush may prevail - but in the long term, I think people will just do whatever always happens: they'll build to handle it, or the format will change (unrestrict X, Y, Z, and restrict Gush).

If it was that easy to stop Gush, it would not be the dominant engine in Vintage.  Regardless, it's a single tournament, so there is no long term.

If Gush is a dominant engine, why was there only one gush deck in the Waterbury Top 8?  Just curious...

[serracollector]

So to nueter everything equally we would go...

BANS:
time vault
yawgmoths will
blightsteel collosus

Restrict:
Bazaar
dark ritual
mana drain
force of will
mishra's workshop
elvish spirit guide
tarmogoyf
All fetch lands
All dual lands
Goblin Charbelcher
Painter
Grindstone
Helm of Obedience
Metalworker
All legends, and legendary creatures....
Goblin Piledriver
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony

this would lead to some other decks being viable and I think a much different format/meta, and I think it equally "nukes" the bombs of most tier 1 decks evenly across the board. If I missed something let me know.

[TheShop]

Sans force, I think a 5 color combo deck full of draw 7s would make this format a coin flip format...just use steel city vault as the starting point...

[Mindstab_Thrull]

If it was that easy to stop Gush, it would not be the dominant engine in Vintage.  Regardless, it's a single tournament, so there is no long term.

If Gush is a dominant engine, why was there only one gush deck in the Waterbury Top 8?  Just curious...

Steve, I think bluemage's point is this:
 Gush T8'ed a Waterbury with unrestricted Shop, Drain, Ritual and Bazaar, and Vault was legal. With those four "Pillar cards" restricted, Gush will have a much freer reign.

However, I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment. If Gush becomes that powerful, people will just build with it in mind. Gaddock Teeg, for example, may see more play, and maindeck Pyroblast without Painters (which some players already do as is based on their local metagames). Dredge currently gets 6+ cards in the sideboard as is, and it's not even the most powerful deck out there. People will just find other ways to build their decks, and keep Gush specifically in mind when they put together their maindecks and sideboards. Then the meta will shift, or Gush will be also (re-)restricted, and things will balance out again.

---------------

Completely unrelated:
The other day I saw someone in one of the chat rooms asking for Vintage games on MWS with four Brainstorms. I'm curious how that would turn out, assuming (a) the current format and (b) the proposed format.

[Fortune]

So to nueter everything equally we would go...

BANS:
time vault
yawgmoths will
blightsteel collosus

Restrict:
Bazaar
dark ritual
mana drain
force of will
mishra's workshop
elvish spirit guide
tarmogoyf
All fetch lands
All dual lands
Goblin Charbelcher
Painter
Grindstone
Helm of Obedience
Metalworker
All legends, and legendary creatures....
Goblin Piledriver
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony

this would lead to some other decks being viable and I think a much different format/meta, and I think it equally "nukes" the bombs of most tier 1 decks evenly across the board. If I missed something let me know.

I think this is a great base to work from. . . maybe "all legends"  and fetches/duals is a bit strong, but thanks for putting it together.