How can control beat fish?

[TheWhiteDragon]

I am having a problem with one of my decks.  It is a URBg control deck, with similarities to Steel City Vault, but updated and just better.  It has a solid game vs gush or any blue decks.  It has a good game vs shops.  It can wreck dredge g2/3.  It has a tough time of landstill, but goes at least 50/50.  But it gets WRECKED by fish.  I have a GWUb fish deck that I face frequently, and I barely win 1 out of 10 games.  I even bring in 4 reb/pyroblast, 2 grudge, 1 hurkylls, and 3 pyroclasm.  The deck just owns me.

If I tinker for BSC or drop welder, he has plow, path, and edict.  If I go for vault/key, he has qasali, relic-warder, trygon, nature's claim, null rod.  If I try to fof, gifts, tezz, jace or jar, he has gaddock and counters and massive swarm of 2/2 + 2/3s.  If I go for tendrils, he has gaddock, null rod, and true believer.  Oath doesn't get past qasali, trygon, believer, relic warder, or the critter removal either.  If I try to blast away with 4 FoW, 4 drain, 4 reb...he just out creatures my counterwall. If I attack his lands, he has moxen and heirarchs.  I can reset with pyroclasm and he just drops more critters and edric/ancestral to refill his hand.  He even has tinker for inkwell.  My turn 1 tinker with FoW backup even meets a turn 1 plow, warder, path, edict with FoW backup more often than not.

Artifact/enchantment answers like drop of honey, abyss, moat just get removed with claim/qasali/trygon/warder.  Sorcery/instant answers just hit the reset button on a constant stream of beaters.  Creature answers get edict, path, or plowed.  Land answers (tabernacle) get waste/stripped or just paid for to beat for 6+ a turn.

I'm at my wits end.  It seems like this deck has answers for everything and is far more consistent than anything I've seen.  What can I do to beat this deck?

Here's my deck:

// Lands
    4  City of Brass
    1  Tropical Island
    2  Volcanic Island
    2  Island
    3  Scalding Tarn
    1  Mountain
    1  Underground Sea
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    3  Goblin Welder
    1  Blightsteel Colossus
    1  Gorilla Shaman (2)

// Spells
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Ancient Grudge
    1  Time Vault
    1  Voltaic Key
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Tinker
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Red Elemental Blast
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Mox Pearl
    4  Force of Will
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Tezzeret the Seeker
    1  Ponder
    1 [BD] Brainstorm
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    4  Mystic Remora

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Ancient Grudge
SB: 1  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Nature's Claim
SB: 1  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1  Pyroblast
SB: 3  Pyroclasm

Here's the opponent's fish deck


// Lands
    1  Misty Rainforest
    4  Windswept Heath
    1  Bayou
    2  Savannah
    1  Tundra
    2  Tropical Island
    1  Verdant Catacombs
    4  City of Brass
    1  Forest
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
    3  Gaddock Teeg
    4  Noble Hierarch
    3  Trygon Predator
    2  True Believer
    3 [COM] Edric, Spymaster of Trest
    3  Leonin Relic-Warder
    1  Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
    1  Nature's Claim
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Null Rod
    1  Path to Exile
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Pearl
    2  Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 [ARE] Diabolic Edict
    1  Tinker
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Trygon Predator
SB: 1  True Believer
SB: 2  Nature's Claim
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2  Planar Void
SB: 4  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4  Phyrexian Revoker

[honestabe]

When I played Bob Tezz, I ran a couple Sowers our of the board and loved them.  Maybe that's a solution?  Virtue's Ruin is also a good option.

[Diakonov]

I would base your plays very much on what type of hand he has, but generally I would advise the Tinker plan.  Just hold your counters so that you have counter-backup for Tinker.  It's unlikely that he'll be able to play two removal spells in one turn.  This allows you to get at least one swing in which will effectively kill one of his creatures.  If he doesn't have the second removal spell by then, you win--otherwise, hopefully you have another counter, or he removes the robot and you've taken out at least one of his creatures.  He really only has 7 spells that deal with Robot, and Edict is nullified if you lead with a Welder.  Does he hold back Relic-Warders, or is he using them mostly to remove moxen?  If the latter, they become less of a threat.  Compare this to your 9 counters, and it doesn't seem half-bad.

If you practice this match a lot, I firmly believe that you gain the upper hand.  His deck is versatile but it is slow and clunky, whereas yours is quick and can readjust according based on the given situation.  Go in the opposite direction that he goes in, and counter only the key spells that stop you from winning.  Once you side in 3 Pyroclasms, it should be a blowout.  The only non-robot dude that doesn't die is Predator!  You'll be 3-for-1-ing him all day.

My turn 1 tinker with FoW backup even meets a turn 1 plow, warder, path, edict with FoW backup more often than not.

I don't see FoW or Plow in his list, so it can't be quite as bad as this.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Sowers are okay, but seem slow.  They also are usually a 2 for 1 at best...same as pyroclasm.  If they plow the sower, it's a 1 for 1.  Nature's Ruin and Virtue's Ruin are about the same.  One whiffs on arbiter, believer, mindsencor, relic warder, meddling...the other whiffs on image, trygon, and heirarchs.  Pyroclasm hits all of those except trygon - and for 1 mana less, and red which I run more of - but is also utility vs confidant/snapcaster/welder decks.

I'm able to beat regular noble fish a fair amount of time and GW fish I can beat very well.  But the fish deck I mentioned is crushing me.  I can only kill about half the critters and they just have too many fish.  Every other draw is a creature and it is too much to handle.  I need a spell that can stop fish's attack or stop their critters from coming into play or something.

[Joblin Velder]

Peacekeeper could be okay.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I would base your plays very much on what type of hand he has, but generally I would advise the Tinker plan.  Just hold your counters so that you have counter-backup for Tinker.  It's unlikely that he'll be able to play two removal spells in one turn.  This allows you to get at least one swing in which will effectively kill one of his creatures.  If he doesn't have the second removal spell by then, you win--otherwise, hopefully you have another counter, or he removes the robot and you've taken out at least one of his creatures.  He really only has 7 spells that deal with Robot, and Edict is nullified if you lead with a Welder.  Does he hold back Relic-Warders, or is he using them mostly to remove moxen?  If the latter, they become less of a threat.  Compare this to your 9 counters, and it doesn't seem half-bad.

If you practice this match a lot, I firmly believe that you gain the upper hand.  His deck is versatile but it is slow and clunky, whereas yours is quick and can readjust according based on the given situation.  Go in the opposite direction that he goes in, and counter only the key spells that stop you from winning.  Once you side in 3 Pyroclasms, it should be a blowout.  The only non-robot dude that doesn't die is Predator!  You'll be 3-for-1-ing him all day.

My turn 1 tinker with FoW backup even meets a turn 1 plow, warder, path, edict with FoW backup more often than not.

I don't see FoW or Plow in his list, so it can't be quite as bad as this.

I guess I confused his list for noble fish (which does have FoW).  I play against this a lot, and his typical play is turn 1 land, noble.  If I cast tinker, he can path/edict or tutor on his upkeep, drop a land and use the removal.  If I have turn 1 tinker w FoW backup, it's obviously good.  Sometimes He can play moxen and have a warder with an edict/path for backup.  After turn 1 noble, he usually drops qasali with 1 mana open.  Next turn he swings for 4 or 5 depending on if he drops gaddock, another qasali, edric, or trygon.  At that point, he's content swinging for 4-6 a turn and holding his warders.  He's smart and never plays more than 3 critters, 1 of which is a noble and one of which may be trygon which pyroclasm won't kill.  He plays his warders like removal spells rather than beaters.  He also can drop jace and be crazy trouble.  Rebs and pyroclasms slow him, but they are hardly able to stop 22 creatures and the occasional tinker.  Usually g2, he's bringing in the extra warder/trygon/plow and bringing out the true believers and something else.

The trygons whittle away my mana, the beats make planeswalkers useless, and the remoras obviously get sided out.  If I try to sandbag him and kill 2-3 fish with a clasm, he usually drops another gaddock, qasali the next turn and may still have trygon.  His deck may seem clunky, but it's really insanely consistent.  If he was dumb and ran out 5 critters to where I could clasm away his board, it'd be different....but he plays smart too.

Peacekeeper could be okay

Could be, but it's white and I only have cities/pearl/lotus to get it.  Black is hard enough and I have U sea with 3 fetches.

[Saya]

Blightsteel with welder?then your welder won't work fully.you should investigate Inky,Sphinx or Battlesphere:which goes to graveyard.Especially Battlesphere would be good.

[Diakonov]

@TheWhiteDragon

Gotcha.  However, even as a reliable 2-for-1, Pyroclasm is the business at 2 mana.

You should side out everything that costs 4 or more except FoW.  Here's what I would do:

-1 Jace
-1 FoF
-1 Gifts
-1 Memory Jar
-1 Tezz
-4 Remora

+3 Pyroclasm
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Nature's Claim
+1 Yixlid Jailer

The other thing to remember is that you are the aggressor, not he.  If unobstructed, you win before he does, so HE needs to try to stop YOU.  In other words, don't worry about how many creatures he has.  Relic-warder and Trygon are sorcery-speed removals, so you can always hold back your Vault and Key and only play them when you have enough mana to activate immediately.  You'll have 6+ removal spells for his Null Rods, plus 8 counters and 3 Pyroclasms for his Pridemages (which, other than a singleton Nature's Claim, is the only way he can stop a same-turn Vault-Key).

Also, his mana base is real ugly, so your sideboard should make him cry.

Don't try to counter all of his dudes/disruption.  Unless they legitimately stop your path of least resistance, ignore them.  Also, don't forget that you can use Nature's Claim to SURPRISE gain 4 life; you can use your Blightsteel as a lightning rod if he's in play.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The welders are to fight AGAINST blightsteel, or to go broken with jar or to recover a countered vault/key, or win with vault/key off a gifts pile, or ravage shops in tandem with grudges and shaman.  Welding in a robot is obviously not the plan, especially since I don't even run thirst.  BSC is for the turn 1 tinker, oops, I win play that is common with all my acceleration and reb/drain/FoW backup.  

[Diakonov]

Also note that if he plays Gaddock Teeg, he no longer can play Jace to remove your robot  

EDIT: MORE HEAD-SLAPPING PLAYS

If you have Welder out and are holding Ancient Grudge, run out your Time Vault.  When he goes to Relic-Warder it, BLOW OUUUT

[TheWhiteDragon]

@TheWhiteDragon

Gotcha.  However, even as a reliable 2-for-1, Pyroclasm is the business at 2 mana.

You should side out everything that costs 4 or more except FoW.  Here's what I would do:

-1 Jace
-1 FoF
-1 Gifts
-1 Memory Jar
-1 Tezz
-4 Remora

+3 Pyroclasm
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Nature's Claim
+1 Yixlid Jailer

The other thing to remember is that you are the aggressor, not he.  If unobstructed, you win before he does, so HE needs to try to stop YOU.  In other words, don't worry about how many creatures he has.  Relic-warder and Trygon are sorcery-speed removals, so you can always hold back your Vault and Key and only play them when you have enough mana to activate immediately.  You'll have 6+ removal spells for his Null Rods, plus 8 counters and 3 Pyroclasms for his Pridemages (which, other than a singleton Nature's Claim, is the only way he can stop a same-turn Vault-Key).

Also, his mana base is real ugly, so your sideboard should make him cry.

Don't try to counter all of his dudes/disruption.  Unless they legitimately stop your path of least resistance, ignore them.  Also, don't forget that you can use Nature's Claim to SURPRISE gain 4 life; you can use your Blightsteel as a lightning rod if he's in play.

That's similar to what I do.  I usually leave in gifts, because it can just be nuts with welder.  Usually I:

side out:
tezz, jace, fof, 4 remora

side in:
reb, pyroblast, 3 pyroclasm, 2 grudges

Jar can still be ridiculous with welder, so even if he kills it, I can weld it in and go crazy.  Gifts is also equally nuts with welder and can usually grab me several answers (pyroclasm, reb, grudge, ancestral for example).  Jailer shuts off my grudge flashback and would otherwise be a random 2/1 vanilla vs his deck, so I don't use him.  

FoF in general is becoming just "okay", even with welder and drain.  Jace is similarly "okay" - but super good vs control.  I used to have sensei top, which I may want again.  Extra draw/filter/unkillable tinker&welder fodder is never bad.  Sensei could perhaps help me find answers faster.  Tinker/Time Walk (if they have no path/edict) or same turn Vault/Key (if they don't have quasali) are really my only ways to win.  

What creatures would you counter?  Trygon keeps me off mana and is unkillable with pyroclasm.  Qasali makes Vault/Key not win.  Edric refills their hand super fast.
Nobles I usually let resolve (sometimes I'll force it if they mulligan and play land/noble), Jace and tinker (unless I have hurkylls) need to get countered. Gaddocks cut of my Fows, but typically I let them resolve.  So, gaddock can cut off FoW and then I have 11 counters (3 reb/4 FoW + 4 drain) to stop 13 big threats. (and an additional trygon after sb).  Am I missing something?  It seems they have more threats than I have answers.

[Daenyth]

Darkblast has been pretty key for me. You also keep saying that he has all these answers, but how is the fish deck drawing more cards than yours, especially if you keep getting CA off your clasms? How about Lightning bolts to handle his key creatures like Trygon?

[nineisnoone]

tbh, your deck just looks weak against the opponent. so, as i see it, he should have the adv.

main deck remora, welder, moxen, ponder, facts, gift are all not really helping you and create vulnerabilities.

it's really just a question of where you want to prioritize, and here your priorities are not against fish (or at least this particular one)

that said, i would run lavamancer.

[TheWhiteDragon]

To put it another way, what WOULD beat his fish list?  What deck would blow his away?  Can a control deck beat fish?  He has answers to my deck and anything with tinker/vault/key.  He also has plenty against oath.  What blue deck will consistently beat him, and how will they do it?

Moxen obviously get shut off by null rod as does vault key, but I don't think I can remove those.  Remora is weak, but they are the bee's knees vs every other deck.  Welder actually isn't terrible in the matchup as he can get back blown up stuff and make broken plays.  He also saves from trygon wrecking more than 1 permanent.  Ponder, fact, and gifts? I don't know how dig, draw, and tutor are bad against a deck that seems to out threat my counters.

That said, I like lavamancer, but wonder if clasm isn't just better.  I can't play both together, and probably want clasm over lavamancer just because I can kill 2-3 guys in 1 shot as opposed to over 3 turns, and 6 cards gone from my grave.  In the long haul, lavamancer might be nice, but if he gets plowed or edicted, he could kill nothing.  Pyroclasm is always CA and it would probably take several turns (if he sticks around) for lavamancer to make up the difference.

Darkblast doesn't cut it.  I have less ways to get black than red, and often get volcanic to cast the bulk of my stuff.  Also, it takes 2 turns and skipping card draw to kill even 1 2/2.  I can pick off nobles, but that's not the best when it can't hit the real threats.  Lightning bolt is an answer to trygon, but reb/pyroblast is just so much better.  Both can hit edric/trygon, but Reb can also stop jace, ancestral, mystical, hurkylls, and tinker.  Reb just seems altogether more versatile vs the field anyway.

I think the rebs and pyroclasm are the best options at the moment.  What I'm looking for is THE card that just hoses fish that they can't beat and I can utilize consistently in a control/combo shell.  That card may not exist, but I'm hoping.  I'm really interested to see what cards people would suggest running or removing, even maindeck, to tighten this matchup.

[bluemage55]

To put it another way, what WOULD beat his fish list?  What deck would blow his away?  Can a control deck beat fish?  He has answers to my deck and anything with tinker/vault/key.  He also has plenty against oath.  What blue deck will consistently beat him, and how will they do it?

Fish is designed to beat control, so of course the matchup is generally in favor of fish.  If you are playing control, you're best off when you can take the initiative and play a combo/control game plan, rather than trying to play a losing game of draw-go.  Gush decks are probably the best option if you're playing blue.

Moxen obviously get shut off by null rod as does vault key, but I don't think I can remove those.  Remora is weak, but they are the bee's knees vs every other deck.  Welder actually isn't terrible in the matchup as he can get back blown up stuff and make broken plays.  He also saves from trygon wrecking more than 1 permanent.  Ponder, fact, and gifts? I don't know how dig, draw, and tutor are bad against a deck that seems to out threat my counters.

The fact that you're playing Remora is a large part of the problem.  You've dedicated four slots to countering non-creature oriented decks, so it's nobody's fault but your own if your Fish matchup suffers.  You basically have no card-drawing engine against any deck that can ignore your remoras (singleton copies of Jace, Fact, Ancestral, BS, and Ponder don’t cut it; heck, you don’t even have TfK).  If you insist on maindeck Remora, then that's fine, but then you shouldn't cry when you lose to creature decks.

I think the rebs and pyroclasm are the best options at the moment.  What I'm looking for is THE card that just hoses fish that they can't beat and I can utilize consistently in a control/combo shell.  That card may not exist, but I'm hoping.  I'm really interested to see what cards people would suggest running or removing, even maindeck, to tighten this matchup.

Take out the remoras, and maindeck 4 Bobs.  It’ll give you an engine against Fish (and are pretty viable against everyone else), they draw out removal spells and/or quickly bury him under CA, and they come with a 2/1 blocker.

[d0rsal]

triskelion?  he plays well w/ your goblin welders

[nineisnoone]

To put it another way, what WOULD beat his fish list?  What deck would blow his away?  Can a control deck beat fish?  He has answers to my deck and anything with tinker/vault/key.  He also has plenty against oath.  What blue deck will consistently beat him, and how will they do it?

I don't think the deck you are asking about is very strong, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. As I said before, you just send your deck out in too many directions. Things like Ponder, Fact, Gifts, do very little for you. And cards like Remora/Welder are pulling you in different directions and end up weak in practice because the level of synergy is low.

I don't think you really understand the concept of Steel City Vault (which is to run spells that dump cards into the graveyard to power Welder... you don't even run Thirst). None of these cards are bad, but once you start needing to SB cards the deck loses it's coherence and becomes more vulnerable, being entirely counter productive.

Welder + Vault (in a typical control shell) even beats this deck in my eyes. Welder makes Pridemage stupid, since you can just bring it back with Welder during the extra turn. You just need to get Rod off the table for a turn. AND they don't run any counter spells... (so in retrospect, it's not even a fish deck)

And even at it's basic level this deck loses to Tinker. They run 2 proper removal spells (one of which is negated by having another creature in play) and LRW which is negated with a simple bounce spell or counter protection (and again they run no counter spells). Nothing else they do is going to be able to race you in time.

what you keep asking for (to be blunt) is just lazy. you want "leyline of the fish". no. there is not a leyline of the fish. that's just not how it is. fish decks are the least vulnerable to hate (generally) but consequently have the lowest objective power. (convesely shops/dredge have the most power but most vulnerability, and blue is in the middle).

[serracollector]

SB a balance, you run 4 cities, and it gets around Teeg, can be a blowout if they removed some important stuff with Relic Warders.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't think the deck you are asking about is very strong, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. As I said before, you just send your deck out in too many directions. Things like Ponder, Fact, Gifts, do very little for you. And cards like Remora/Welder are pulling you in different directions and end up weak in practice because the level of synergy is low.

Do you mean the fish deck I'm facing, or the control deck I'm running isn't very strong?  Against gush/jace/whatever blue decks, I am winning a vast majority of games.  Remora stops them from going off, gaining me cards for every counter, and delaying their game until I have a full hand.  Welder recovers whatever is countered and is a killer vs BSC or vault/key in tandem with shaman and grudge.  Vs shops, well grudge, hurkylls, 3 welder, and shaman give them fits and I very often win that match.  So against the blue and shop pillars, I'd have to say my deck is quite strong.  

If you mean that my opponent's fish deck isn't strong, again I'd disagree.  Not only does it beat my combo deck, but it regularly beats shops, oath, and regular noble fish as well.  I'm having a tough time beating that deck with ANY archetype...even dredge g2/3 since he has 6 cheap answers and tinker-sphinx.  Though, dredge is probably the best match against him.

What would you cut ponder fact and gifts for?  Ponder helps me set up on turn 1 and find extra land vs shops or FoW vs control or pyroclasm vs fish.  Gifts is just nuts and even more so with welder, so I don't understand that one.  Mox + Welder in play and then gifts for walk, ancestral, vault, key is usually gg.  Not getting the criticism on that one, especially in this deck.  Even gifts for jar, grudge, etc ends up in some great piles when i have a welder.  Even if I DON'T have welder - ancestral, yawg will, tinker, walk is never terrible.

I said that fof is just seeming so-so, but is thirst better?  I ONLY have a drawn BSC, jar, and vault/key(if i have welder) that I WANT to pitch.  Otherwise with thirst I'm just drawing 3 and pitching 2.  I can pitch extra moxen, but my deck is mana hungry and likes to hit 5 mana.  fof is also a nice drain sink that i don't need to wait on depending on what I have in hand.  I've tried thirst, and have been unimpressed.  I don't run jar and several robots I want to pitch.  I basically have 2 artifacts I want to discard and several I want to cast.

I don't think you really understand the concept of Steel City Vault (which is to run spells that dump cards into the graveyard to power Welder... you don't even run Thirst). None of these cards are bad, but once you start needing to SB cards the deck loses it's coherence and becomes more vulnerable, being entirely counter productive.

This isn't steel city vault, it just runs many similar cards, and thus the comparison.  The welders are there to disrupt the opponent and recover countered bombs.  The deck isn't designed to dump massive artifacts into the dirt.  I find it becomes more vulnerable to leyline/null rod then.

What cards would you cut, and what would you add?

Take out the remoras, and maindeck 4 Bobs.  It’ll give you an engine against Fish (and are pretty viable against everyone else), they draw out removal spells and/or quickly bury him under CA, and they come with a 2/1 blocker.

Remoras add to my U count for FoW too.  With 4 FoW, BSC, Fof, Gifts, jar, tezz...I don't think confidants are a good call over the remoras.  I'd be dead in 5 turns on flips.  I would like to add sensei top again regradless...and with bobs, they don't really help vs the fish match. With exalted, their attackers are always 3/3 or better so it's not a trade.  Also, the remoras come out for 3 pyroclasm and reb.  Remora's are nice with the deck vs control/shop, but not vs fish, so they are an easy substitution for sb cards.  Also, pyroclasm being one of my best sb options, is a non-bo with bobs.

what you keep asking for (to be blunt) is just lazy. you want "leyline of the fish". no. there is not a leyline of the fish. that's just not how it is. fish decks are the least vulnerable to hate (generally) but consequently have the lowest objective power. (convesely shops/dredge have the most power but most vulnerability, and blue is in the middle).

This is quite true, and I know it's lazy.  I was hoping for the silver bullet that would make my one weak match a strong match.

SB a balance, you run 4 cities, and it gets around Teeg, can be a blowout if they removed some important stuff with Relic Warders.

I considered and even tried balance early on.  White is hard to find.  Originally I had enlightened tutors to attempt to make it a fast vault/key deck...but white was solely dependent on cities.  If I were going to run a white card, I'd think Peacekeeper would just be better.  Then they really only have 1 or 2 cards to remove it and I could pay 1 life a turn to have the next ten turns free to build my hand and pyroclasm, vault, key in the same turn.   It might be better to even have tundra in the sb with peacekeeper so I can reliably cast and keep the peacekeeper out indefinitely.

I know I'm asking for my deck to be great against everything, but that's the point.  Why would I be happy with a deck that has a weak matchup?

[bluemage55]

Remoras add to my U count for FoW too.  With 4 FoW, BSC, Fof, Gifts, jar, tezz...I don't think confidants are a good call over the remoras.  I'd be dead in 5 turns on flips.  I would like to add sensei top again regradless...and with bobs, they don't really help vs the fish match. With exalted, their attackers are always 3/3 or better so it's not a trade.  Also, the remoras come out for 3 pyroclasm and reb.  Remora's are nice with the deck vs control/shop, but not vs fish, so they are an easy substitution for sb cards.  Also, pyroclasm being one of my best sb options, is a non-bo with bobs.

Yes, you would obviously need to redesign the deck around Bobs such as lowering the average cc, adding a SDT, a Jace, adjusting the blue count, etc, but the point is that you need an engine that is more flexible than Remora if you don't want a horrible game 1 vs. Fish.

Whether you run Bob, Night's Whisper, Gush, Snapcaster, or what have you, the idea is that you need a consistent CA engine that doesn't roll over to Fish, unless you're in a meta where you don't mind rolling over to Fish.


The original Steel-City Vault deck used a draw 7 engine, and its sources of CA and filtering included:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Impulse
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Windfall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Timetwister
1 Regrowth
1 Memory Jar + 2 Goblin Welder

By contrast, when you can’t make use of Remoras, you only have:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Memory Jar + 3 Goblin Welder

Do you see why you're so painfully dependent on Remora?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yeah, I originally had wheel and twister.  I also had divining top.  I think bobs would really make the deck weaker vs shops/control in a way I'm not willing to do.  Crypt, FoW, cities, etc. already chip at my life a lot and a single attacker can bring me down to under 10 life.  Bob could easily kill me.  Also, a second remora almost makes it impossible for my opponent to make a play, whereas a second bob is suicide.  I'd rather consider gushes over bobs really.  The remoras are obviously replacing thirst and the draw 7s for the fact that it is assymetrical and I don't have a ton of stuff I want to pitch.  I tested twister/wheel, and while they could be good, they could also be bad.  I beat a gush deck just yesterday where he twistered with him at 1 card and me at 3 with me only having a volcanic open.  I drew vault, key, welder, fof, FoW, Reb, fetch.  Needless to say he saw the bad side of a draw 7.  Thirst I am still on the fence about, but honestly I may try a 2nd fof.  I want a 2nd fof, sensei top, and another good draw spell....maybe even a single gush...or maybe merchant scroll.  A pair of snapcasters actually doesn't seem awful.  It's a flash critter to trade with fish (if not exalted) and I have a ton of cheap spells to flash back.  Especially after a drain, I could even flashback a fof or something.

What do you think are the weak cards in my list?  It seems that the concensus is that all the cards in my deck are good, but I need more draw/dig.  What would you cut?  I can see maybe dropping 1 welder, but he really has been golden.  Shaman has been insanely good in almost any matchup.  The single reb and single grudge are awesome.  Tezz sometimes just "wins".  A land, mox, lotus, Tezz is sometimes as good as land, mox, mox, tinker.  It's just an extra bomb.

Understandably, some cards like remora are better vs things other than fish or dredge.  But they are very good vs oath, control, and shops...and they are easy to sb out when i'm on the draw or in the fish/dredge matchup.  If those remoras were bobs, what would you cut to bring in rebs and pyroclasms?

Please, look at the list and say (in order) what would you cut and why and what would you replace them with?

[bluemage55]

I think bobs would really make the deck weaker vs shops/control in a way I'm not willing to do. Crypt, FoW, cities, etc. already chip at my life a lot and a single attacker can bring me down to under 10 life.  Bob could easily kill me.   Also, a second remora almost makes it impossible for my opponent to make a play, whereas a second bob is suicide.

Bob is actually strong versus shop.  He buries them under CA, he chumps, and he helps you stabilize your mana base by drawing you into mana when you otherwise couldn't afford to play spells that dig for them.  You do take out crypt if you're going to play bob, and a second bob turns the first one into a block and is more avoidable when you run SDT and Jace x2.

I'd rather consider gushes over bobs really.  The remoras are obviously replacing thirst and the draw 7s for the fact that it is assymetrical and I don't have a ton of stuff I want to pitch.

I get that, but the point you’re missing is that if you want to play a Steel-City style deck, the Thirst and draw 7s are crucial to it.  That said, there is a problem with that idea since Drains don’t exactly fit into it.

I tested twister/wheel, and while they could be good, they could also be bad.  I beat a gush deck just yesterday where he twistered with him at 1 card and me at 3 with me only having a volcanic open.  I drew vault, key, welder, fof, FoW, Reb, fetch.  Needless to say he saw the bad side of a draw 7.

You took the wrong lesson from that.  The real thing to learn there is that SCV breaks the symmetry of draw 7s by being more capable of exploiting them than other people.  Your deck likes it when draw 7s resolve, so obviously it’ll turn out bad for other people when they do that for you.

What do you think are the weak cards in my list?  It seems that the concensus is that all the cards in my deck are good, but I need more draw/dig.  What would you cut?  I can see maybe dropping 1 welder, but he really has been golden.  Shaman has been insanely good in almost any matchup.  The single reb and single grudge are awesome.  Tezz sometimes just "wins".  A land, mox, lotus, Tezz is sometimes as good as land, mox, mox, tinker.  It's just an extra bomb.

You don’t need more draw/dig so much as you need a drawing engine that doesn’t roll over to creatures.  Remora does give you plenty of draw, it’s not flexible enough to rely on if you expect to frequently face fish.  Barring Remora, the weakest cards are Shaman, Welder #3, and REB, at least before meta considerations. 

Please, look at the list and say (in order) what would you cut and why and what would you replace them with?

I’m willing to do that, but first I think you need to decide whether you want to play more of a Drain deck or more of a SCV-type deck.  At the moment, your list is hiding the fact that it’s mediocre at both by heavily hedging against control.

[hitman]

If you want to beat Fish, play Empty the Warrens and make an early Warrens for 8-10 goblins.  Fish usually won't ever beat that.  It's the best card I've found for smashing Fish.  All you have to do is counter or kill Gaddock Teeg if you're not Emptying early.  I don't have problems with Fish if I'm playing a singleton Empty the Warrens.  They've printed Flusterstorm since so you probably want to watch out for that card.

Also, I don't think you should play Remora and Drain in the same deck.  They're kind of anti-synergistic.  Have you tried Flusterstorm in place of Mana Drain? 

[TheWhiteDragon]

As I said...It's not a steel city vault deck, either in build or in playstyle.  I only mentioned SCV as it uses the vault/key kill with main welders and grudges (I had 3 grudges main at one point, but quickly dropped to 1).  Perhaps I was wrong to mention SCV as now people are looking at my deck as a worse SCV as opposed to a different deck with some similar cards and thinking of it on its own merits.  It hedges against control, but also handles shops very well.  The only bad match is fish, and the type of fish I mentioned.  Typical noble fish I am able to beat fairly half of the time at least, especially after sb.  I guess in playstyle it's probably actually closer to control slaver.  Let's look at the list for what it is and forget I ever mentioned SCV.

Shaman can be weak against fish, sure...but if I have him and 5 mana, they can't drop null rod (as I tap the moxen in response and kill the rod).  For 3 mana, he stops vault/key from winning.  He wrecks moxen obviously, and his synergies with welder and grudge are great.  A shaman and a welder alone annihilate most artifact decks.

The 3rd welder may be more than needed, but the synergies with fof, gifts, jar, grudge, and shaman are amazing.  The deck really loves welder.  I might even consider adding back wheel of all things as draw power simply because of welder.  Having 3 gives me a good chance of playing 1 on turn 1 if I'm not playing remora and before I have UU for drain.  He's an excellent BSC defense.

We'll just say remora swap for bobs, and I think it is a matter of preference on which to play.  So looking at the other 56 cards - what gets cut, what gets added?  You suggest cutting crypt if I run bobs, but then that cuts off turn 1 tinker plays, slows fof, gifts, jace, and tezz considerably.  If the suggestions are going to be to gut the deck and then build a bob/clique/trygon/gush deck, then I am not looking to do that.  Dropping my list and then just netdecking a totally different list, is not going to be the plan.  I don't think anyone is suggesting this, but just to warn that this will not be my direction.

Also, I don't think you should play Remora and Drain in the same deck.  They're kind of anti-synergistic.  Have you tried Flusterstorm in place of Mana Drain?

I've tried fluster, misstep, rebs, pierce, daze, annul...the rebs and flusters were too dead against anything but blue.  Even oath, jace, trygon, etc wouldn't get stopped.  They are amazing vs dedicated blue instant.dec or ritual storm, but those aren't my weaknesses.  Misstep was decent, but too narrow and dead vs fish/shops.  Reb was just dead vs shops.  Daze was okay, but delayed my development and was bad with remoras and high CC cards.  Annul sucked vs blue and fish.  Pierce was the only card that was all around decent, but didn't help me vs fish which was already my weakest match, and sometimes they just had the 2 mana anyway.  Drain not only fuels big bombs like tezz, jar, jace, gifts, fof, will, but also it is a hard counter vs EVERY deck.  Drain really isn't anti-synergy with remora.  Turn 1 remora means I have no mana open for pierce anyway.  Turn 2, I tap the land and then drop a land and have 1 open, so at this point I could utilize pierce...but typically at this point I am casting welder, shaman, mystical, vamp, ancestral, brainstorm, ponder, or holding for REB.  On the next turn, I have 2 mana up.  In this way, I am basically using remora as a stall so I either draw cards off their acceleration and spell (and I may have a force or that REB), or I get to UU before they do anything bad.  If I have a land and a mox, I cast remora (and couldn't pierce still unless it's sapphire and I could use drain too) then next turn tap the mox and drop a land, and now I have drain mana up at the same point I would have pierce mana.  Remoras are even decent at any point in the game (nobody really pays 4 after a spell), whereas they can easily have an extra 2 by mid game.  If I use pierce instead of remora, I have more counters and less draw.  Sometimes people are just forced to play into remora too when I drop welder, ancestral, etc.  Shops especially do not want to play land, go behind my remora and will often let me draw 3+ to play out their regular turn 1.

I think thirst is worth consideration, wheel could be revisited, and sensei top was a tough cut before and has synergies in the deck.

If you want to beat Fish, play Empty the Warrens and make an early Warrens for 8-10 goblins.

I originally ran 1 main as an anti-fish measure and I completely forgot about it.  This might be a really good option.  I think to beef it up, I need to add something like gush, sensei, or something else to my deck to build storm.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Update - I just played that guy again, 8 games....I won 1.  I even brought in 2 reb, 1 pyro, 3 pyroclasm, and 1 empty the warrens.  He pummeled the shit outta me.  He out drew me with edrics, killed off my welder, relic wardered my tinker/BSC, and qasalid my time vault.  I had nothing.  

I had a hand of 4 drains even one game.  I drained his gaddock, drew my 4th drain, he played null rod, I had to counter to keep my sapphire on, then played qasali.  I played a land and memory jar.  He cast null rod again, then edric and drew.  I drew DT and had no black.  He plays jace, I drain, he swings with 2 and draws 2.  I draw yawg will...no black.  He plays another qasali, I counter...he drops another jace.  He proceeds to give me the bad draws and bury the good draws while he swings for 4 and draws 3 cards a turn.

3 games I had BSC and he had warder and edict/path/tutor and FoW backup didn't even help me 2 of those games.  I managed to pyroclasm all of once and never saw warrens.  The rebs fended off trygons and that was it.  I won one game when he had turn 1 gaddock and I had turn 1 land, lotus, ancestral into mox, vault, key.  Anything past turn 1 luck, he had the answer to EVERYTHING.  The BSC plan wasn't even a speed bump and I only got to attack once...he blocked with a qasali...next turn cast warder and another qasali.

I think anything short of 8 pyroclasms won't help me with this guy.

[stealth]

In the latest set there is a flashback pyroclasm...

[bluemage55]

I think anything short of 8 pyroclasms won't help me with this guy.

You’re missing the point.  You’re not losing because you don’t have enough hate.  You’re losing because your deck is really bad when your only engine (Remora) isn’t working.

I had a hand of 4 drains even one game.  I drained his gaddock, drew my 4th drain, he played null rod, I had to counter to keep my sapphire on, then played qasali.  I played a land and memory jar.  He cast null rod again, then edric and drew.  I drew DT and had no black.  He plays jace, I drain, he swings with 2 and draws 2.  I draw yawg will...no black.  He plays another qasali, I counter...he drops another jace.  He proceeds to give me the bad draws and bury the good draws while he swings for 4 and draws 3 cards a turn.

Case in point.  You lost because you didn’t have the card drawing/filtering to do find you black mana.


I'm going to be blunt since you don't seem to be getting it.  Your deck is bad.  The only reason why it's not immediately obvious is because you're effectively playing a hate deck against control, so it's possible for you to think that it's decent if you mostly play against the decks you hate out.  The fact that you're struggling with a poorly built aggro deck (no Wasteland, c'mon) exposes how flimsy your deck is.

If you’re serious about playing a Drain deck with Remora (even though they synergize poorly), then here’s how you can make your janky deck playable: (1) give yourself a viable engine, (2) drop the Welder/Memory Jar elements which are subpar without graveyard filling spells like draw 7s/thirst, and (3) drop red since it’s no longer worth inclusion without the Welders.  If you're not just here to whine about aggro being overpowered or something, then try the following changes:

-4 City of Brass
-1 Tropical Island
-2 Volcanic Island
-1 Mountain
-1 Strip Mine
-1 Mana Crypt
-3 Goblin Welder
-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Ancient Grudge
-1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Memory Jar
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Mystic Remora

+1 Flooded Strand
+1 Misty Rainforest
+1 Polluted Delta
+3 Underground Sea
+1 Snow-Covered Island
+4 Dark Confidant
+1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Lotus Petal
+1 Duress
+1 Thirst for Knowledge
+1 Gush
+1 Merchant Scroll
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+1 Sensei’s Divining Top

[TheWhiteDragon]

So, your suggestion is to just scrap my deck and pick up the latest snapcaster/bob list to be posted?
Not only did you suggest a 20 card differnce, but have totally changed the focus and playstyle of the deck.  Now it MIGHT be better vs fish, but how would that list beat shops?

I want a deck with no weakness, not a totally new deck with. Different weakness.

If my original list is so bad, why can I beat everything but fish?  I beat all the popular gush and shop decks which obviously are more of major metas.  My ONLY losing match is fish, so I don't see how the deck is just "bad".bad vs fish maybe, but bad vs the field, hardly.

[bluemage55]

If my original list is so bad, why can I beat everything but fish?  I beat all the popular gush and shop decks which obviously are more of major metas.  My ONLY losing match is fish, so I don't see how the deck is just "bad".bad vs fish maybe, but bad vs the field, hardly.

I sincerely doubt you beat Dredge either.  Nor Painter.  You beat gush decks because you maindeck 4x Mystic Remora and 1x REB, and you beat shop decks because you maindeck 3x Welder, Gorilla Shaman, and Ancient Grudge.  And even against shop, I seriously question how well you would do when it is so easy to lock down your mana base when you have so few fetch lands and multiple off-color dependencies.  I’m fairly certain that a good shop deck running wastes/strip, null rods, and phyrexian revokers for your welders alongside the typical sphere pieces would make your life difficult.

“I want a deck with no weakness” is complete BS when you’re playing a deck like that.  You’re not playing a deck with no weaknesses.  You’re playing a deck with no strengths except against the two most popular decks in the field.

If you refuse to listen to that, then I don't know what to tell you.  Maybe one of the Vintage Adepts can come into this thread and talk some sense into you, but at the moment you're basically sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "La, la, la, I'm not listening."  Would it make you happy if I told you that your deck is close to perfect and that your opponent's fish deck is just overpowered and needs restrictions?

[Diakonov]

You can beat that Fish deck.  You don't need to change anything.  Just beat him already.  You have to use your counters very carefully, and focus completely on setting up Tinker or Vault/Key.  Most of the time you probably want to go the Tinker route, since it only requires 1 tutor and doesn't care about Null Rod.  Keep a mox in your hand until you're about to cast Tinker, if you have to.  Let him play his damn Trygon Predators. Who cares.  Just save a counter to protect Tinker. 

I can see g1 being a bit tricky, but with Pyroclasms you should win the match.

As I mentioned before, the decisions you need to make are very situation-dependent.  If you want, throw some Thoughtseizes in there.  You'll remove a dude/Null Rod and see what direction is easiest for you to maneuver around.  It's Fish, so it can't exactly change gears on the fly.