White Weenie

[policehq]

Hi all,
I have tested a few games of this on MWS, but mostly I have goldfished hands. When I look at opening hands, I try to examine lines of play versus Dredge, Blue, and Workshop. I think typically the lines could be successful, though of course they are unbroken and able to be beaten by broken hands on the other side of the table.

Mana-base
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
8 Plains

Enchantments
4 Stony Silence
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures
3 Aven Mindcensor
0 Children of Korlis
4 Icatian Javelineers
3 Kami of Ancient Law
4 Kataki, War's Wage
0 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 True Believer
0 Whipcorder
4 Gideon's Lawkeeper

My numbers may be off here, and I may be missing some important hate weenies. For example, I chose to replace Leonin Relic Warder with Oblivion Ring after facing a Chalice at 2 counters. Similarly, Leonin Arbiter has no dissynergy with Flagstones of Trokair.
Originally I tried to be cute with Steppe Lynx, fetchlands, Flagstones, and Ghost Quarter, but that didn't fare too well.

All I know to explain from here are anti-plans.
Anti-Tinker:
4 Ramosian Sergeant, 2 Whipcorder, 3 Oblivion Ring, 3 Aven Mindcensor, attack mana-base
Similarly, anti-Oath is a combination of these things and 4 True Believer, 3 Kami of Ancient Law.
Swords to Plowshares, Condemn, or Path To Exile would certainly be good options for the sideboard.

Anti-Dredge:
9 Strips, 1 Children of Korlis, 4 Icatian Javelineers (self-destructing), 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, in rare circumstances Kami + Stony Silence
I wish Children or Korlis were as good in this match-up as they were before Laboratory Maniac.

Anti-Shop:
9 Strips, 4 Kataki, 4 Stony Silence, 4 Flagstones of Trokair. But let's not kid ourselves; this one is harder with Spheres and things. Having a lot of basics and permanents goes a long way, though. The sideboard needs to address this match-up a bit more, I think.

I tested and didn't like Jotun Grunt, Steppe Lynx, Phyrexian Revoker (bad juju with Kataki), Aether Vial (Stony Silence is better), Martyr of Sands/Proclamation of Rebirth/Kami of False Hope. The sets are cycling so fast that it's difficult to have kept up with all the options, and I'm just now trying to get a few decks together for tournaments after selling my cards last year.

EDIT: Changes in bold

[Wagner]

Since you don't run fetches, wouldn't Leonin Arbiter help with your Ghost Quarter plan and just be a general nuisance. Of course it doesn't play well with Flagstone, but you can probably cut 1-2 of those if you go that way, same with Sergeants.

Also, why not a single Karakas?

1-2 Crucible would look so sexy in there too with that whole Waste package, you even have the Flagstones to thin out the deck.

[ilpeggiore]

I don't see the strenght of this list.

 It's slow,it has slow ramosian mechanics, it suffers fast tinker, it has some excessive redundancy like 4x kataki, 3x kami and no decent beater.

 Not to be negative, but without stp a fast turn confident/tpc/golem puts you in trouble.

I don't see how you could exclude arbiter in a deck with GQ.

[policehq]

I don't see the strenght of this list.

 It's slow,it has slow ramosian mechanics, it suffers fast tinker, it has some excessive redundancy like 4x kataki, 3x kami and no decent beater.

 Not to be negative, but without stp a fast turn confident/tpc/golem puts you in trouble.

I don't see how you could exclude arbiter in a deck with GQ.

You're right; it's an inherently weak list. Still, if you consider a few opening hands with it, you will see that there are decent lines of play against common decks today. It has a good game 1 strategy against Dredge, which is rare in Vintage and will go a long way in the short term metagame. It has answers to Tinker and to Shop -> Sphere. I think with some fine tuning it could be a solid choice for a little while.

Do you think Leonin Arbiter against Tinker is more important than Flagstones of Trokair versus Stax? Maybe so, but Aven Mindcensor and Flagstones of Trokair allows me to have my cake and eat it too until testing proves otherwise.

Since you don't run fetches, wouldn't Leonin Arbiter help with your Ghost Quarter plan and just be a general nuisance. Of course it doesn't play well with Flagstone, but you can probably cut 1-2 of those if you go that way, same with Sergeants.

Also, why not a single Karakas?

1-2 Crucible would look so sexy in there too with that whole Waste package, you even have the Flagstones to thin out the deck.

RE: Leonin Arbiter - I think Aven Mindcensor is better for several reasons: It dodges Chalice at 2, it has Flash, it flies, and it can't be avoided. Ghost Quarter is significant enough against most of the field without getting cute, anyway.

The Sergeants can be dropped. Originally more Children of Korlis and Whipcorders were played. Children aren't significant in any match-up except Ichorid, but Whipcorders can replace Sergeants. Time will tell whether that clogs up the 2cc space too much, though.

Icatian Javelineers are good against Confidant. I can't figure out what "tpc" stands for. Maybe Porcelain Legionnaire can come out of the side for Lodestone Golem and its ilk.

Conceivably, you could replace 1 Children of Korlis, 4 Ramosian Sergeant, 1 Kataki, War's Wage with 2 Whipcorder and 4 Swords to Plowshares. Still, I think Chalice@2 is an issue, and Aether Vial is the only solution to the bottleneck 2cc. I think Stony Silence is too important to include Aether Vial, though.

[swawagon]

I don't think Gideon's Lawkeeper is too bad.
W 1/1 Soldier, W TAP: TAP target creature

And cards like:
Swords to Plowshares
Preacher
Dust to Dust

[policehq]

I don't think Gideon's Lawkeeper is too bad.
W 1/1 Soldier, W TAP: TAP target creature

Here's a perfect example of a printing I've missed. Thanks!! The Sergeant/Whipcorder/Children package can be dropped entirely. It was nice to have a creature that sacrifices though, to remove Bridge.

EDIT: Changes posted in the original post.

[boggyb]

Have you tried Matt Gottshall's White Trash deck that T4'd at The Council Open this July? Relies on fast artifact mana and a slew of cheap and extremely efficient hate creatures + 9 strip effects to win. I've played with it a bunch and love it to death. SB could use a good tweaking (NB it has apparently no plan against dredge) but otherwise I recommend checking it out:

    Creature [26]
        4 Ethersworn Canonist
        4 Phyrexian Revoker
        4 Aven Mindcensor
        4 Glowrider
        4 Stoneforge Mystic
        4 Leonin Relic-Warder
        2 Kataki, War's Wage
    Artifact [15]
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        4 Chalice of the Void
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Sword of Fire and Ice
        1 Batterskull
    Land [19]
        9 Plains
        4 Ghost Quarter
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        1 Karakas
    Sideboard
        4 Phyrexian Metamorph
        4 Preacher
        4 Abolish
        2 Path to Exile
        1 Jötun Grunt

edit:

Just a few notes on playing this deck:

• Canonist is superb
• Flashing a Mindcensor breaks backs. Ghost Quarter + Mindcensor is wild and crazy good.
• Stoneforge works well as a midgame bomb. Keep your gameplan in mind: T1-3 or 4 = disruption time. Don't go for an early Batterskull because it's not fast enough to win on its own.
• Revoker is decent. So many artifacts though means that Blue will be siding in its artifact hate, so its value attenuates rapidly in G2/3. It's usually one of the first things to side out, counterintuitively. Canonist is also chancy G2/3 but since its effect is so powerful vs Blue, I usually keep it in.
• Preacher is... decent. I'd like to ditch him though, what with all these fire/ices and lightning bolts floating around nowadays. It's unreliable vs. Tinker, because of Snapcaster, Bob, and Cobra.
• Kataki rules, despite all your artifacts. T1 Kataki vs. shops wins.
• The sideboard needs work. You lose vs Dredge, and Abolish underperforms, with only 9 plains in the deck (you want all the white sources you can get vs. shops).
• Chalice @ 1 (and another at 0 if you can manage it) is your best friend vs. Blue. Barely touches you and turns off ~15 of their cards.

[ilpeggiore]

Options :

cc 0

cotv
MM

cc W

icatian javeliner
Gideon's Lawkeeper
sword to plowshares/pact to exile
tithe
Dispeller's Capsule
Orim's chant

cc 2

phyrexian revoker
thorn of amethist

cc 1W

balance
kataki
leonin arbiter
ethersworn canonist
seal of cleasing
stoneforge mystic
jotun grunt
stony silence

cc WW

Samurai of the Pale Curtain
True Believer
leonin relic warden
serra avenger

cc 3

crucible

cc 2W

aven mindcensor
blade splicer
oblivion ring
Devout Witness
glow rider
porcelain legionair

I thinks this is the white's cream of tha crop. Surely it's not complete but it's a good reminder.

First question = plains + waste + GQ and/or mox and/or ancient tomb and/or extra white land ?

Different answers, different lists.

Second question = What about beating ? serra's avenger a/o jotun a/o porcelain a/o misticalbox (a/o blade splicer) ?

These 2 decisions make half the deck.

@ policehq

tpc = tinker per colossus

the new list is really better.Still 3 stp, 3 ring, 4 javelineer, 4 jideon is way too much. Kami is usefull only against a couple of decks. Some cards I want :

lotus petal, WW on first turn is important
aven #4, at minimum
balance, our bomb
porcellain legionaire.

Mana-base 25
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
7 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flagstones of Trokair

Enchantments 6
4 Stony Silence
2 Oblivion Ring

Instant 4
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

Creatures 25
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Icatian Javelineers
3 Leoni relic-warden
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Gideon's Lawkeeper
3 Porc-legion
4 samurai
3 canonist

Vs little creature :

- 3 stp + 3 javelineer + 3 balance oblivion

Vs big monster

- 3 stp + 3 balance oblivion + 3 relic-warden + 2 jideon

vs artifact

- 3 kataki 3 relic warden 2 oblivion

Why samurai and no believer ?

samurai is a 3/3 during combat, prevents goyfpumping, yagwill and sooo. Believer today prevents only few cards and he has no match ups in which shines.

In side I would like jitte. It's good vs zoo, fish,bant,goblin,GW AND dredge.

Cotv at 2 is still a problem.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Believer today prevents only few cards and he has no match ups in which shines.

I hear he's pretty darn good vs oath.  That being said, you have some decent oath hate and they are better off sb.  Samurai hits crucible/welder shenanigans.  It also prevents bloodghasts/narcomebas from making tokens with bridge since they never hit the grave.  Of the 2 effects (both are nice), I think Samurai is more important in this meta.

Update:

I sleeved this up and got Pwned by oath a ton of times.  Even with a lot of good answers, their counterspells protect them so well.  I was facing a deck with 4 daze, 4 drain, 4 force, 1 seize, 1 therapy...tinker/4 oath...dragon breath/emakrul/BSC.   Emakrul is bad times for this deck.  You cant plow him, balance doesn't work since you have a token.  You can O-ring, or karakas, or gideon him.  Not bad options, but those are only 4-5 cards and getting through 12 counters + seize is rough.  He went nutso broken with lotus, ancestral, revival, timewalk, yawg will, jace, etc...cause I had not a thing to stop him.  All sorcery speed answers and no counters.  This deck seriously wants faster mana and more white vs oath.  Many games I had relic warders (4 main) vs his oath and was sitting on plains and wasteland.  The 8 strips (I cut 1 ghost for a plains) is awesome when it's good, but a real liability when trying to get WW.

[ilpeggiore]

Yes, no good matchup except oath.

but the deck is slow, full of creatures, no counters. It's the perfect oathvictim profile. Emrakul is protected from everything different from karakas.
I'll probably maindeck seal of clesing before TrueB. because the first is good vs stax too.

 the problem you faced are the reason I preffer GW :

- Hierarc provides more mana, ESG faster mana
- Qasali are good beater and prevent oath or cotv2
- gaddock stops force and random brokens

(WW has more creature hate, a stronger mana bases vs waste/moon and a better dredge matchup)

[policehq]

Yes, no good matchup except oath.

but the deck is slow, full of creatures, no counters. It's the perfect oathvictim profile. Emrakul is protected from everything different from karakas.

Emrakul can be tapped down by Gideon's Lawkeeper. The Oath itself can be answered, too, if you keep Kamis (serves a similar purpose as Qasali Pridemage).

[Dr_Moo]

I think Aether Vial is worth trying out. It would mean cutting the Stony Silences for Chalices, but it might be worth it. Vial makes your mana-denial plan better and protects you from Sphere effects and Chalice at 2.

[policehq]

Porcelain Legionnaire is good, but one must keep in mind the amount of hate coming at him: Artifact destruction and Fire/Ice is like Hansel (so hot right now).

4 Gideon's Lawkeeper (or a combination of him and the Kithkin with the same text)
- These are good because of Oath/Tinker/Tarmogoyf/etc.
4 Icatian Javelineers
- Targets include Dark Confidant, Goblin Welder, Snapcaster Mage, THEMSELVES (vs. Bridge from Below)

4 Leonin Arbiter
- Good with Ghost Quarter, Path to Exile, and against Tinker/Tutors/etc.
3 Kataki, War's Wage
- I did like 4 in here; they're really good. I can see how redundancy is a problem though.
4 Ethersworn Canonist
- Keep the opponent honest.
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
- A temporary measure against this explosion of Ichorid. I'd say True Believer would probably keep this spot in the long run, though.

4 Aven Mindcensor
- Just keep the hate coming I suppose. Flash is bonkers too.

4 Path to Exile
4 Stony Silence
2 Oblivion Ring

1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
12 Plains

If proxies and budget weren't an issue, I'd be curious to focus specifically on W2 and W1 hate with Chalice, Ancient Tomb, and maybe even Exalted Angel as the beater (focusing on Chalice @ 1). There are a lot of synergy issues here, too, because 1cc spells include Swords, Aether Vial, etc.

4 Leonin Relic Warder
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Glowrider
3 Exalted Angel

1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

4 Chalice

mana, wastes