Rainbow Demon--a new ICBM Oath Variant

[Aaron Patten]

Why not unmask and more discard?  You're going to draw the demon's anyway.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

because unmask is only "good" when you have an entirely fixable problem. Accept up until that point you had this crap unmask in your hand.

[TheWhiteDragon]

cabal therapy is most likely better.  It doubles up really nicely with duress/seize (or blindly naming FoW to get down oath), and it can target yourself to ditch demons if you are looking to shuffle them back.  It's also very nice vs the mirror at sacing orchard tokens for a double duress.  Probably not an optimal card, but better than unmask.

[Thisson]

Forgive me if these are ignorant questions but would expedition map be a good inclusion here?  How about wheel of sun and moon instead of memory's journey (can use Gaea's blessing's first ability with WOSAM in play).

[Adan]

Forgive me if these are ignorant questions but would expedition map be a good inclusion here?

No. 3 mana to tutor a land is bad. It's vulnerable against Misstep and Null Rod/Stony Silence.

How about wheel of sun and moon instead of memory's journey (can use Gaea's blessing's first ability with WOSAM in play).

Wheel of Sun and Moon is bad as you need a tutor or some other kind of toolbox to find it, Blessing or Memory's Journey on the other hand are milled and accessible just by activating Oath.

[vaughnbros]

Forgive me if these are ignorant questions but would expedition map be a good inclusion here?

No. 3 mana to tutor a land is bad. It's vulnerable against Misstep and Null Rod/Stony silence.

Crop rotation is probably the most powerful land tutor, only 1 mana and instant speed.  Not sure what you are using it for though in this deck.

[Smmenen]

two questions:

1) I am wondering if there is actually any good reason to run Rune-Scarred Demon over Griselbrand.   I was looking at Morphling.de data and noticed that the only place RSD still is played is in SBs.   I've noticed that a Bolt + Snapcaster Mage can actually eat such a big hole out of your life that Griselbrand can actually be a liability, and I would have preferred to have RSD.  I'm wondering if in RUG Delver or Grixis infested metagames, if RSD might be better.

2) If you run RSD, is Blessing better than Memory's Journey?

I watched Greg Fenton play Oath the night before the NYSE, and wondered what NE players may think...

[ErtaiAdept]

two questions:

1) I am wondering if there is actually any good reason to run Rune-Scarred Demon over Griselbrand.   I was looking at Morphling.de data and noticed that the only place RSD still is played is in SBs.   I've noticed that a Bolt + Snapcaster Mage can actually eat such a big hole out of your life that Griselbrand can actually be a liability, and I would have preferred to have RSD.  I'm wondering if in RUG Delver or Grixis infested metagames, if RSD might be better.

2) If you run RSD, is Blessing better than Memory's Journey?

I watched Greg Fenton play Oath the night before the NYSE, and wondered what NE players may think...

As a piece of input on this topic, I have been running a Griselbrand list now for about 6 months.  As far as life total being a liability I can understand your concern, but I haven't found it to be a particular issue in most cases.  The once case where it has been difficult has been in matches where I am severely behind and relying on oath to  turn the tide. For instance, my opponent has several pyromancer tokens/zombies/spirit tokens from my own orchards.  If I find myself in a situation where I resolve an oath, but am at such a low life that I can't draw seven, and can't attack due to being dead to the swing back.  In this situation it is usually necessary to resolve a time walk effect in order to gain the life on one swing and still have your blocker up.  In this case runescar may be slightly better in that it will find you time walk when it hits the table (or any other relevant card) but is slightly worse in that it won't help you regain your life at any point meaning if you can't assemble vault key or kill them then you will most likely still die on their next attack.

Just my $0.02

[Smmenen]

What if you are at 13 or 10 life and you Oath up Grisel, and your opponent has the mana to play Bolt + Snapcaster Mage?  If you activate Grisel, you can just lose in response.  Also, if you try to wait, they may be able to Jace your creature. 

[LotusHead]

I think this was kinda addressed by ErtaiAdept, but Oathing up a Rune Scarred Demon, and Oathing up Grisselbrand are about two different game plans.

RSD implies that you really want to take an extra turn (or find that one answer to the situation, then swing for 6), while Grislebrand implies that you built your deck to capitalize on having 7 cards win the game (Dark Rituals, Tendrils, Burning Wish, etc).

Both seem totally valid, and one doesn't seem neccessarily better than the other.

[ErtaiAdept]

What if you are at 13 or 10 life and you Oath up Grisel, and your opponent has the mana to play Bolt + Snapcaster Mage?  If you activate Grisel, you can just lose in response.  Also, if you try to wait, they may be able to Jace your creature. 

I generally use it as a rule of thumb to not draw 7 off Grisselbrand unless I am either very much ahead on life (ie: I'm at 17-20) or if I absolutely have to. (For instance I am staring down an already resolved Jace, a Jace about to resolve, or some other removal for Griselbrand)  In these situations, I either need to deal with the immediate threat to my win con, or win right then.  Again this is highly situational.  I may be more inclined to let them attempt to bounce griselbrand if I'm under no imediate pressure and know that I can show and tell him into play next turn, or in other situations just oath up another one.

Regardless with the sort of deck that Greg and I play our lines of play are usually much more cautious than say burning long or Runescar oath.  That is to say I am much more likely to oath up Griselbrand, draw my card and pass the turn with counter magic up and wait to beat for 7 next turn.  If my opponent does something that may either prevent me from doing that or cost me the game I can always activate Griselbrand in response and draw 7 and most likely hit some sort of disruption.

As Lotus head correctly assessed, it's really not about one being better than the other, but rather what your strategy is.

[Smmenen]

I appreciate your feedback.  I am not new to Control Oath.  I played Control Oath before Forbidden Orchard was printed (Spike Weaver/Morphling), and designed the Meandeck Oath list that put 4 players in the SCG Richmond Top 8 when Orchard was just printed.  It had 14 counterspells.  I have long experience with the archetype.

I was testing an Oath list modeled after a Greg Fenton list I found, and played a 10 game set against Grixis Control.  I made a few card changes, one of which was added 3 Swan Song.

I was disappointed that in my 10 game set my opponent resolved Turn 1 Jace three times, and in two of those games I managed to Force through Oath, and trigger Oath, but was unable to win the game because, in one instance, I was at 13 life and in another, at 10 life, and in both instances my Grixis opponent would Bolt + SCM if I were to activate Grisel. 

So, obviously, I had to try to wait out Jace and/or draw cards that could stop Bolt/SCM.   I let him bounce Grisel, Oathed up another, and tried to win by Show and Telling another, but that never resolved. 

If I had had RSD instead of Griselbrand, I believe I would have won both games.  Thus, my question: are those games simply extreme anomalies or do they suggest that RSD is actually a legitimate option? 

Lotushead is saying that RSD is a legitimate option, while it sounds like you are saying that RSD is pretty much far inferior to Griselbrand, which was my originally assumption.

I'm just wondering if the heavy Bolt/SCM enviroment we seem hurtling towards means that RSD is a more legitimate option... just curious...

[ErtaiAdept]

@Smmennen: I certainly don't intend to have it come across as saying that rune scar is a far inferior option.  To be honest I don't have nearly as much experience running runescar as I do with running Griselbrand.  That being said your experience against a turn 1 resolved Jace is pretty much what I have seen in my own experience.  It becomes very difficult to win that game.  But my counter point would be that most decks would have a very difficult time dealing with a turn 1 Jace resolving and I try and not let that effect my deck construction as I feel that this will be an outlying scenario rather than a common experience.

Taking the odds of this scenario occurring out of the equation however I can see where having runescar would be more ideal against a field laden with Jaces as his ability happens when he enters the battlefield with no additional cost.  This detracts greatly from the number of scenarios in which your resolved oath trigger will be sub-optimal (like in the cases you mentioned in your post).

I'm not sure what your composition for runescar is, but I do know that in the past some decks have run as many as 3 copies of the demon, this is another reason I prefer Griselbrand as I can run only two and minimize the number of dead card draws.  But if you are planning to just run 2 runescar then that point is not an issue in either case.

[vaughnbros]

There are two cards that you can add to your deck that help considerably when trying to go off at low life totals with Griselbrand:

1. Dragon Breath:  I'm not sure why this card stopped seeing play in oath when Griselbrand began being used.  Getting to attack with immediately and giving him fire breathing (not as negligible as you may think) is huge. 

2. Nature's Claim:  This is at least in the sideboard for most decks since it hits cage, but you can also hit your own moxen/oath/dragon breath to gain the 4 life essentially countering the effect of a lightning bolt + some.

Runescar has its advantages in that you don't really need either of these cards to overcome damage and that you can't be shut off by revoker/needle, but he also has his own drawbacks.  Your opponent can potentially get their turn back with a single counterspell on whatever you tutored for and he's also a far less threatening creature on the table.  I think these are two big reasons that people switched to the legendary demon.

[ErtaiAdept]

There are two cards that you can add to your deck that help considerably when trying to go off at low life totals with Griselbrand:

1. Dragon Breath:  I'm not sure why this card stopped seeing play in oath when Griselbrand began being used.  Getting to attack with immediately and giving him fire breathing (not as negligible as you may think) is huge. 

2. Nature's Claim:  This is at least in the sideboard for most decks since it hits cage, but you can also hit your own moxen/oath/dragon breath to gain the 4 life essentially countering the effect of a lightning bolt + some.

Runescar has its advantages in that you don't really need either of these cards to overcome damage and that you can't be shut off by revoker/needle, but he also has his own drawbacks.  Your opponent can potentially get their turn back with a single counterspell on whatever you tutored for and he's also a far less threatening creature on the table.  I think these are two big reasons that people switched to the legendary demon.

I like the idea of Dragon's Breath a lot, unfortunately my big issue with this card is it is 100% dead as a draw.  Which is one of the main reasons why I stopped running the golden gun version of oath and why I run the version I am now.  The only two semi dead draws I have in my current list are the 2 griselbrands.  And I say semi dead because they can still be put into play with show and tell.  Everything else in the deck has some utility in any match, and at worst can be pitched to FoW.

For me Breath not meeting either of these criteria makes me not want to run it.  Nature's claim however is an absolute include in my main deck and I will often use it to sneak some extra life gain.

[Smmenen]

There are two cards that you can add to your deck that help considerably when trying to go off at low life totals with Griselbrand:

The problem is that it's not really "low life totals."  13 isn't a low life total, it's a reasonable place, and yet it's within death of SCM + Bolt if you go to activate it. 

[vaughnbros]

There are two cards that you can add to your deck that help considerably when trying to go off at low life totals with Griselbrand:

The problem is that it's not really "low life totals."  13 isn't a low life total, it's a reasonable place, and yet it's within death of SCM + Bolt if you go to activate it. 

Theoretically you are at 7 life if you have to play around double bolt.

[Samoht]

There are two cards that you can add to your deck that help considerably when trying to go off at low life totals with Griselbrand:

The problem is that it's not really "low life totals."  13 isn't a low life total, it's a reasonable place, and yet it's within death of SCM + Bolt if you go to activate it. 

Theoretically you are at 7 life if you have to play around double bolt.

13-7=6-3-3=0.

[vaughnbros]

There are two cards that you can add to your deck that help considerably when trying to go off at low life totals with Griselbrand:

The problem is that it's not really "low life totals."  13 isn't a low life total, it's a reasonable place, and yet it's within death of SCM + Bolt if you go to activate it.  

Theoretically you are at 7 life if you have to play around double bolt.

13-7=6-3-3=0.

Thank you that, but next time you should probably actually write the equality correctly.  13-7 is not equal to 6-3-3 or 0.  I was saying 13 is a low life total when your opponent has double bolt in hand, because 13-3-3 = 7.

[Samoht]

There are two cards that you can add to your deck that help considerably when trying to go off at low life totals with Griselbrand:

The problem is that it's not really "low life totals."  13 isn't a low life total, it's a reasonable place, and yet it's within death of SCM + Bolt if you go to activate it.  

Theoretically you are at 7 life if you have to play around double bolt.

13-7=6-3-3=0.

Thank you that, but next time you should probably actually write the equality correctly.  13-7 is not equal to 6-3-3 or 0.  I was saying 13 is a low life total when your opponent has double bolt in hand, because 13-3-3 = 7.

Steve is saying that if you activate Griselbrand at 13, and lose 7, you then die to double Bolt before drawing the 7 cards. So I'm pretty sure I wrote it correctly.

[vaughnbros]

There are two cards that you can add to your deck that help considerably when trying to go off at low life totals with Griselbrand:

The problem is that it's not really "low life totals."  13 isn't a low life total, it's a reasonable place, and yet it's within death of SCM + Bolt if you go to activate it.  

Theoretically you are at 7 life if you have to play around double bolt.

13-7=6-3-3=0.

Thank you that, but next time you should probably actually write the equality correctly.  13-7 is not equal to 6-3-3 or 0.  I was saying 13 is a low life total when your opponent has double bolt in hand, because 13-3-3 = 7.

Steve is saying that if you activate Griselbrand at 13, and lose 7, you then die to double Bolt before drawing the 7 cards. So I'm pretty sure I wrote it correctly.

According to the definition of an = sign you didn't actually write it correctly... Yes he was illustrating a specific example of how 13 life is too low to go off with Griselbrand, so I was trying to point out to him that his life total in the example he gave is actually 7 not 13, which I think classifies as a low life total in which case you need a way to gain life in order to use him.

[Smmenen]

I see; when you said 'low total,' you meant 13 or below because you are basically saying that 13 = functionally 6.

 

[ErtaiAdept]

I see; when you said 'low total,' you meant 13 or below because you are basically saying that 13 = functionally 6.

 

I would agree with this assessment.  When playing with Griselbrand 14 is your magic number.  You want to try and keep your life total at or above 14 prior to resolving oath as it gives your the most chance of winning.  This however is not an easy task when playing against decks that run Bolt/snapcaster or even deathrite shaman as that damage adds up quickly.

Long story short I would consider 13 to be a low life total.

[Guli]

Hi,as a Human deck designer, i find it extremely troublesome to prepare for all the oath targets. Griselbrand and Emrakul could be answered with spheres , disruption and karakas or jace. But the problem is also covering for demon rune and tyrant. Is the only way to fight oath reliably decay? Also blightsteel is seeing play in oath and blue in general. Tinker can not be answered by decay for example. And let us not forget about burning wish into show and tell, or just straight up show and tell. Any idea's to solve this problem?

Thanks.

[ErtaiAdept]

@Guli:  For combating oath I find that your strategy should not be to worry about what they are going to put into play, as in any case, if oath has resolved the damage has already been done (Tutoring with runescar, draw 7 from griselbrand, or well....Emrakul). 

So your strategy is to basically fight as hard as you can to keep that oath from happening.  As you mentioned decay is your best choice for destroying oath, but nature's claim and pure disenchant work as well.  If you're running humans I imagine that cage could be used efficiently in your list as well.

Now you also mentioned the alternate strategies (ie: show and tell, burning wish, tinker) these are Oaths latest means of getting around anti-oath tech. And unfortunately you can't battle everything all at once so i would recommend if possible to just have a solid counter suite with some good removal and disruption for oath itself and know that you're role in the match is to prevent oath from happening.

[StanleyAugust]

There are a lot of good anti Oath strategies. Maindecking Grafdigger's Cage is one I've been promoting for a long time. Devout Witness out of the sideboard is another one I really like. True Believer could work too (in some metagames) although I've never been a big fan of that one.

That said, you're absolutely right that the biggest issue isn't actually Oath but Show and Tell because Beats deck have no answers for it. Luckily, most Oath decks only packs a single Show and Tell.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The best strategy?  Play shops with cages - no oathing, no spells costing >1.  Best strategy with little weenie creatures?  Qasali Pridemage, Trygons, Plows, counters.  Best strategy with humans?  Scoop and get pizza before the next round.

[mifme]

Hi All, i'm a long time lurker on this Forum and actually this is my first post.

My name is Matt Harper and i finished 5th at the latest BOM Paris vintage event playing demon Oath, the deck is a blast to play with really good game against the field, i did however only loose in to one guy who was the eventual winner after my deck decided to just draw mana after my initial good starting hand, that said i dont think i'd change the deck much at all. If you want to see the deck go take a look on the bazaar of Moxen top 8 page.

I responce to shops and maindeck cages i've found that in demon Oath a cage is actually not too bad anyway sure we have drains, missteps and forces to counter in and if we are on the play a thoughtseize can take it before they get to play it but i've been on the end of an early cage and still won with demon oath, with the grisslebrand/emrakul versions its virtually GG but demon Oath is fine. As long as you can continue your game plan you can still activate the Oath and essentially tutor a demon to the top of your deck then draw and cast it.

Regards

Matt