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Author Topic: Stampede-Cage Aggro  (Read 8341 times)
MaximumCDawg
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« on: February 01, 2012, 05:28:56 pm »

There's a card from Mirrodin Beseiged that always seemed really good to me, but hasn't really seen play anywhere: Lead the Stampede.  For 2G, you get to draw all the creatures in the top 5 cards of your library.  If your deck is half creatures, that's gonna be 2G: Draw 2 or 3 cards most of the time.  That's really sweet for green.  Problem is, playing a deck with 31+ creatures in Vintage has been a losing proposition, even for beatz decks.  So, no one was using this as a draw engine.

Until now?  

We've got a resurgence of creature-based decks in Vintage, and two important new printings from Dark Ascension that might make this work.  First, we have Thalia, Defender of Thraben.  You can break her symmetry by playing a creature-based deck just like Stampede wants, and you can draw her off Stampede.  Second, they printed Grafdigger's Cage, which does soooo much to help the matchup against... well, everything that beatz doesnt like.

Thalia and Stampede put us in WG, but I wanted to explore including R as well.  The reason here is that this justifies running all 8 spirit guides.  Spirit Guides seem pretty absurd with Stampede, letting you generate mana as well as bodies.  Plus, in these colors you get access to the who's who of disruptive creatures.

I really wanted to include Magus of the Moon, for example, since it's so backbreaking against other decks.  That implies you need to be in heavy red yourself, though, so you can function under a Magus lock.  

Here's my rough draft:

Creatures (25)
4   Gorilla Shaman  (anti-power)
3      Mogg Fanatic    (anti-bridge, blows up Confidants, Delvers, Cliques)
4   Phyrexian Revoker  (anti-bazaar, anti-planeswalker, anti-vault)
2   Scavenging Ooze   (anti-goyf, the big beater of the deck)
4   Simian Spirit Guide  
4   Elvish Spirit Guide
4   Magus of the Moon   (so good)

Legendary Creatures (6)
3   Gaddok Teeg     (also so good)
3   Thalia, Defender of Thraben      (asymmetry ahoy)

Spells (8)
4   Lead the Stampede   (the draw engine we're building around)
4   Lightning Bolt          (could be StP, except we don't wanna get stuck with our Magus)

Artifacts (4)
4   Grafdigger’s Cage   (anti-everything)

Land (17)
4   Ancient Tomb
1   Windswept Heath
2   Arid Mesa
1   Wooded Foothills
2   Tiaga
1   Plateau
3      Forest
3      Plains

Sideboard (This assumes a metagame where Oath is seeing only limited play, but blue decks, shop and aggro decks will probably be important.  I've also seen a rise in storm locally)

4      Red Elemental Blast (blue decks)
4      Pyrostatic Pillar (storm, helps aggro plan)
4      Torch Fiend (help against shop, cheaper than Maniac and more reliable under Magus than Hooligan)
3      Chain Lightning (additional removal against other aggro decks)

Some questions:

(1) Y U NO PALY GOYF

Because it doesn't do anything.  This is still Vintage.  Lead the Stampede doesn't let you draw into non-creature answers to problems, so you want as many of your creatures to be answers as you can.  Every creature in this deck does something beyond turning sideways.

(2) Why include white at all?

Good question.  I like the idea of Teeg and Thalia, maybe even Mindcensor.  They're just so powerful in an all-creature deck like this.  If you went all-in on the Christmas Beatings plan instead, you'd probably add Blood Moons, which would lower your creature count and make the deck more predictable.  As it is, an opposing blue player may see a turn 1 Gorilla in game 1, and a turn 1 Gaddok the next.  That will make their choices very difficult.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 05:38:42 pm by MaximumCDawg » Logged
madmanmike25
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 07:33:41 pm »

Quote
4   Phyrexian Revoker  (anti-bazaar, anti-planeswalker, anti-vault)

Sadly Revoker doesn't work on lands.

Casting Lead the Stampede into Spirit Guides seems very interesting.  Reminds me of a mail in rebate or cash back.  Maybe not Vintage worthy but seems really cool.

I wonder if Elves could even use this card.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 09:01:21 pm »

Whoops, correct on Revoker.  I still like it as an answer to what Cage misses, namely, Jace, Tezz, and Vault.

Elves doesn't like this card because it's too expensive.  They tutor up elves for 1G and 0, and then draw off each elf when going off anyway.  Stampede would be a roadblock as you begin going off, and unnecessary after you're well on your way.  It would, however, let you recover from an empty hand when you fail going off... right up until they counter it.

If Stampede works at all, I think it works with Spirit Guides, as it generates mana.  Oh, I wonder about Tinder Wall, too?  That little fella ALSO generates mana and can be stampeded into. 

BTW, I looked into similar effects to Stampede to see if there is a more combo-centric deck to be made here, but there really isnt.  Gift of the Gargantuan gets you one creature and one land from your top four; Commune with Nature only gets you one card; and Beast Hunt does basically what less of what Stampede does for more mana. 

In a different shell, Tracker's Instinct might have some legs, but only because it flashes back.  I sorta doubt it though.  Why spend 1G to dig four deep for a single creature, and 2U to do it again, when you could just dig 5 deep for 2-3 creatures for 2G?
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 09:32:32 pm »

This card may seem good but not in the proposed list.  The goal obv is to get a fast thalia, and now your stampede costs 4 mana, at sorcery speed, thus meaning that more often than not your gonna need to chuck 2 ESG/SSG to cast the stampede in order to hope to draw on average 1 other esg/ssg and a threat? Dono.  It could be a good draw card, but not under thalia.  Under Thalia you want to have lots of strip effects.  Magus of the moon could obv help in this regard, so those 2 have great synergy, but also like thalia, magus could keep you from casting this spell as well, not being able to access green mana.  Just my thoughts.

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Sublime Archangel
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
3 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Plains
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mental Misstep
4 Aven Mindcensor
2 Armadillo Cloak
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Trygon Predator
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tropical Island
2 Avoid Fate
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 11:36:55 am by serracollector » Logged

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boggyb
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 10:13:49 pm »

Serra, my thoughts exactly. Seems to me you should just go RG, and add in more disruption too -- maybe a Chalice + Vexing Shusher package? You should also consider a GSZ + toolbox kind of build -- those work well when you can reliably get a forest out, and would let you run 1 Tarm as well.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 10:24:38 pm »

Serra, my thoughts exactly. Seems to me you should just go RG, and add in more disruption too -- maybe a Chalice + Vexing Shusher package? You should also consider a GSZ + toolbox kind of build -- those work well when you can reliably get a forest out, and would let you run 1 Tarm as well.

If you go a more traditional RG list, then GSZ is fine... except it doesn't work at all with Cage.  Cage is so good at stopping all of the things beats are worried about, and probably makes Chalice not necessary to boot.  Points about Thalia are well taken, though.
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xouman
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 11:52:42 am »

modern elves play that card. I bought an elves deck and played it in a vintage tournament (it was a disaster), and have looked at legacy and modern versions.

Having tested modern version against the wall, lead the stampede is nothing special. It's only ok when you get out of gas, and it feels like losing a turn most of the time. That's quite bad in vintage and specially in a deck focused on drop as much as possible as quick as possible. while I agree that drawing creatures is awesome, the price is too high imho, cards as countryside crusher improve the creature density a lot while beating nicely.
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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2012, 05:29:34 pm »

lead the S. is no good.


Why ?  there are cc3 cards that let u draw 2 cards, right ? (mulldrifter)

But, Lead, lets u draw only creature.. so u need to draw at least 3 card from LtS.
So u need a 36-40 creature deck to broke it. Theory.  And That means no space for somethin else.


If i can suggest a way to broke it :

4 children of korlis
4 sylvan library
4 Lead the stamp
8 spirit guide
4 IMMOLATIN SOULEATER

sylvan let u draw with stampede
children let u draw with library
souleater win u the game with korlis
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Guli
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 06:47:23 am »

I have been working on this for a while now. It is the Naya approach. I refrained from posting anything because I didn't solve some issues (yet). The problem is not the lack of draw engine (thought I would like a  {G} {1} green 2/1 'dark confidant' that would work on only creature cards you reveal for example?), i think the problem is the inability to cast your threats and make them stick. In other words, a deck like land still for example will basically counter everything and if not they will remove it. Even a card like Vexing Shusher might not be a solution because you would need to protect it versus fire/ice or lightning bolt. And post board there is the issue of Pyroclasm. It is not only landstill that will follow this plan.

So if you focus on getting your stuff through, and this is easily done, then you have problems keeping them alive and most importantly you are running cards that only counter their counters. This translates that at that time you do not 'hate' their gameplan directly (instead you do it indirectly) and is tricky, is this tempo gain or tempo loss? ... (Vexing Shusher, Xantid Swarm, Ather Vial, ...)

Secondly, if you opt for a turn 1 Thalia or turn 1 Gaddock to try to multi-task, stop their counters AND disrupt their plans, then your bears are very vulnerable to spot removal or mass removal.

It is crucial that these key bears survive and keep beating. The moment you lose them, you lose the initiative and are open to get dominated. Protecting against spot removal is also possible but suffers from the same issues as the anti-counter cards, they only stop their spot removal.

It would be great to see a card that offers protection against spot removal and gets your stuff through. With these two abilities it would be fair to make it a pesky 1/1. To my knowledge there is no such card in existence. It is either protection and a lousy body (Mother of Runes, Sylvan Safekeeper) or hard colours (Eight and a Half Tail  {W} {W}), or anti counter and a decent body (Shusher), or anti counter and a lousy body (Xantid Swarm, Gaea's Herald)

Some corrections and suggestions about Tarmogoyf. Goyf is probably the best solution right now to combat the red removal package against landstill. It does  A LOT more than you might think in these kinds of decks. I use to think Tarmogoyf has no effect and that it doesn't belong in the deck without a lot of instants, sorceries. Facts are, opponents WILL play cards, even if you hate them. They will try to outplay you and you will try to slow them down. If they fail, Tarmogoyf will still be a 3/4. And if they are somewhat getting things done, then Tarmogoyf comes in and puts that necessary pressure on the clock. Having that 4/5 on the table in between all your tiny (but with utility) does mix things up in a healthy way I think.

I ll be back with more...

till then,
my 2 cents,
Guli
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 08:51:23 am by Guli » Logged

MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 11:17:28 am »

I agree with everything you said, Guli, which is why I chose to go Naya and run the creatures I did.  My concept was to run very powerful hosers at every drop level, and use Stampede + Spirit Guides to keep them flowing after an aggro deck would normally run out of gas.  Look at what I'm suggesting:

1 drops - Gorilla Shaman, Mogg Fanatic, Cage
2 drops - Phyrexian Revoker, Scavanging Ooze, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia
3 drops - Magus of the Moon

As you say, once they start burning your creatures, your defense starts to crumble.  But, by using only disruptive creatures instead of beaters like Goyf, every time another creature drops, they are cut off more resources.  If you open like this:

t1 - Shaman
t2 - Shaman eats a mox, SG into a Thalia
t3 - Magus of the Moon

When do they have time to do much? I don't think spot removal is a huge deal, since you should be able to lay at threat every turn in the early game.  Now, Pyroclasm is of course a HUGE hole in this game plan, but the more Tarmogoyf sees play in other aggro decks, the less play Pyroclasm is going to see.

That's the theory, anyway.  

I get that countermagic is going to ruin your day, but with so many potent cards in the one-drop slot, I have a hard time seeing how a control player can make enough space to execute their plan unless they draw Deez Nutz.  (Misstep, Misstep, Force, Saph, Pearl, Tinker, Island, anyone?)  Part of my reason for exploring Lead the Stampede is precisely to recover from well-timed countermagic or sweepers.  Yes, they can counter the Stampede as well, of course, but if they expended themselves stopping your disruption early, at least it gives you a chance to avoid playing draw-go with them.

By the way, the creature you are talking about when you want protection and getting stuff through is Mother of Runes.  She really is all that and a bag of chips, but she doesn't do much against traditional Vintage archetypes, I find.  I like her in decks running something that gets huge, like Knight of the Reliquarty, Goyf, or even Vinelasher Kudzu.  
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xouman
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 11:26:29 am »

You have raised a very interesting point: proactive answers vs reactive. Null rod, stony silence, CTOV and cage are preventive cards. Any of them can win a match (best said, prevent the opponent winning the game) by themselves, but usually opponent has plenty of time to remove them. In my local meta, a player has succeed with a GW deck playing Grand Abolisher, since big blue decks win using tinker and countering your main threats, and abolisher allows you to play swords or stony silence unresponsed. You are still nude against broken plays as tinker + time walk, but play your spells unmolested.

Another player also performs a lot of T8's playing a vial wizards deck. Vial gets better with blue, since you can interact in the stack with voidmage prodigies, complemented with confidants for CA and meddlings and qasalis for better denial.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 11:28:40 am »

You have raised a very interesting point: proactive answers vs reactive. Null rod, stony silence, CTOV and cage are preventive cards. Any of them can win a match (best said, prevent the opponent winning the game) by themselves, but usually opponent has plenty of time to remove them. In my local meta, a player has succeed with a GW deck playing Grand Abolisher, since big blue decks win using tinker and countering your main threats, and abolisher allows you to play swords or stony silence unresponsed. You are still nude against broken plays as tinker + time walk, but play your spells unmolested.

Another player also performs a lot of T8's playing a vial wizards deck. Vial gets better with blue, since you can interact in the stack with voidmage prodigies, complemented with confidants for CA and meddlings and qasalis for better denial.


Yeah, Shusher and Abolisher are fine cards, but I am worried they are too narrow.  They really only deal with countermagic from blue decks.  In other words ,they don't push you towards victory, and they don't directly stop the opponent from winning; they just protect your disruption in a particular matchup.  Compare that to, say, Shaman, who is useful in Shops as well as against Blue. 
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Guli
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 02:29:33 pm »

I get that countermagic is going to ruin your day, but with so many potent cards in the one-drop slot, I have a hard time seeing how a control player can make enough space to execute their plan unless they draw Deez Nutz.  (Misstep, Misstep, Force, Saph, Pearl, Tinker, Island, anyone?)  Part of my reason for exploring Lead the Stampede is precisely to recover from well-timed countermagic or sweepers.  Yes, they can counter the Stampede as well, of course, but if they expended themselves stopping your disruption early, at least it gives you a chance to avoid playing draw-go with them.

By the way, the creature you are talking about when you want protection and getting stuff through is Mother of Runes.  She really is all that and a bag of chips, but she doesn't do much against traditional Vintage archetypes, I find.  I like her in decks running something that gets huge, like Knight of the Reliquarty, Goyf, or even Vinelasher Kudzu.  

They don't have to draw nuts, all they have to do is FoW and 1 good mana drain into their own bomb. And if they draw a removal they can even hold on to that Force for another threat later on.

Also blue based decks with Snapcaster Mage (with or without BoB) or in Fishy versions just recast that Stp, Bolt or MM. And there is very little you can do about it. And this is not the Drain deck I am talking about above. Snapcaster decks with creature removal just sweep your board.

Proactive or Reactive, it all comes down to getting your permanents in play. And you need them to survive for have winning chances. I love bears that both protect themselves and at the same time disrupt the opponent. Gaddock is in this category and Thalia has joined the ranks. But the protection they offer is very soft (but sometimes crucial). They do need support. I tried to create prison bant with Glowriders and Phantasmal Image. With Thalia this could mean multiple sphere effects against removal and win conditions. Such a deck is capable of disrupting the opponents plan on an universal level, mana wise. It operates like Workshop does, but with cheaper cc and smaller creatures. Thalia is a huge improvement of that deck. But I didn't get around to adjusting the Bant Prison. In my profile description you can find the deck I made but this is a more controlish approach (Bant control) and not really a 'prison' deck. I started off with Glowriders but eventually cut them to 2 and then cut them for Gaddock. Anyway, the prison deck with Phantasmal Image ran Meddling Mage, Revokers, Qasali Pridemage, Glowriders and so on. This was pre-Thalia and I am sure Thalia can successfully integrate in that deck (null rod section).

However, it is much harder to pilot a deck with more "heterogeneous" effects. A prison deck just tries to stack the sphere effects and this works cumulative. But in a deck with Gaddock, Thalia, Magus of the Moon and say Ethersworn Canonist it is much harder to see and understand the cohesion. And also to implement it in practical game. I once got the criticism that I just threw all the effect together and hope for the best. But at that time the options were limited. Nowadays it is the opposite, there is a problem of fitting in everything you want and finding the correct numbers while tuning the deck.

I agree with everything you said, Guli, which is why I chose to go Naya and run the creatures I did.  My concept was to run very powerful hosers at every drop level, and use Stampede + Spirit Guides to keep them flowing after an aggro deck would normally run out of gas.  Look at what I'm suggesting:

1 drops - Gorilla Shaman, Mogg Fanatic, Cage
2 drops - Phyrexian Revoker, Scavanging Ooze, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia
3 drops - Magus of the Moon

As you say, once they start burning your creatures, your defense starts to crumble.  But, by using only disruptive creatures instead of beaters like Goyf, every time another creature drops, they are cut off more resources.  If you open like this:

t1 - Shaman
t2 - Shaman eats a mox, SG into a Thalia
t3 - Magus of the Moon

When do they have time to do much? I don't think spot removal is a huge deal, since you should be able to lay at threat every turn in the early game.  Now, Pyroclasm is of course a HUGE hole in this game plan, but the more Tarmogoyf sees play in other aggro decks, the less play Pyroclasm is going to see.

That's the theory, anyway.  

Exactly, this is all theory. And things are not so linear. They could drop a Golem and you might not find the time to eat that mox.

It is not just Pyroclasm. Read above.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 05:21:10 pm by Guli » Logged

MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 12:07:40 pm »

I don't think you're over-estimating the potency of blue decks draining into Tezz or Snapcaster recurring removal.  That's all a danger.  But, the trick for any aggro deck is how to most efficiently answer those threats while landing permanents that turn sideways.  With enough over-lapping disruption, I think this is possible.  Remember, in your example, Cage takes out Snapcaster. Take the senarios you mentioned, for example: Gaddok Teeg answers Force of Will, regardless of how long they hold it in their hand.  That's the whole idea; each card you land means (ideally) they have to get another card in hand. 


I think the best response to your criticism is to make sure that the protective elements of the deck overlap better.  Right now, as you point out, it's just "GoodStuff.dec."  So, for example, Gaddok Teeg and Cage are both great, but neither one makes it more difficult for your opponent to deal with the other.  Ideally, you want each new permanent you drop to add another card to the list of cards the opponent must assemble at once to deal with it.  That is, maybe we want our disruptive elements to "stack" like Workshop does.

So, looking at Naya's colors in an aggro deck, what overlaps?

(1) Mana Disruption (stacks really nicely)
Strip, Waste, Ghost Quarter, Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst, Gorilla Shaman, Hooligan/Chewer/Devil/Revoker (sorta)

(2) Library Disruption (does not stack nicely; simply doubles up on the same effect)
Arbiter, Mindcensor, Cage, Stranglehold

(3) Tactical Disruption
Teeg, Cage, Grudge/Claim/Stp,

I think the big problem, seen this way, is that the tactical disruption elements - probably necessary to deal with powered opponents - do not overlap with themselves very well at all.  They sort of overlap with the other categories, insofar as library disruption makes it harder to find an answer and mana disruption makes it harder to cast the answer, I suppose. 

So, on this theory, what if we drastically reduced our Green commitment, and focused basically on mana disruption as our primary threat and protection for the other key disruptive elements?

Engine (14)
4 Lead the Stampede
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Tinder Wall

Creatures (23)
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Scavenging Ooze (SB: 2 Pyrostatic Pillar)
3 Aven Mindcensor 
4 Vexing Shusher  (SB: 4 Ingot Chewer)

Artifacts (4)
4 Grafdigger's Cage (SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares // 2 Pyrostatic Pillar)

Spells (4)
4 Lightning Bolt

Land (15)
4   Ancient Tomb
1   Windswept Heath
2   Arid Mesa
1   Wooded Foothills
1   Tiaga
2   Plateau
3   Forest   
3   Plains

The concept here is to open with a quick flood of 2 - 3 disruptive creatures off your fast mana, then restock with Stampede to get a second wind.  Conceptually, each creature still in this deck makes it more difficult to remove the others, except for Scavanging Ooze, I suppose. Opening with fetchland, SG into Tinder wall, Magus of the Moon is pretty powerful.  Of course, it could just draw a FOW.

I guess the best way to protect your little duders is to do what people in Vintage usually do: branch into another color.  So, if we went with blue instead of white, we could do something like this:

Engine (16)
4 Lead the Stampede
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures (21)
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Plaxmanta (ya baby) (SB: 2 Pyrostatic Pillar)
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Scavenging Ooze (SB: 2 Pyroblast)
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Trinket Mage (SB: 2 Pyrostatic Pillar)

Artifacts (4)
4 Grafdigger's Cage (SB: 4 Energy Flux // 2 Flametounge Kavu)

Spells (6)
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm (SB: 2 Ingot Chewer)

Land (15)
4   Ancient Tomb
1   Misty Rainforest
2   Scalding Tarn
1   Wooded Foothills
1   Tiaga
2   Volcanic Island
3   Forest   
3   Island

You lose the disruptive elements of the white cards, but gain alot more protection for your red disruption.  There's still enough creatures to probably make Lead the Stampede work for you, but honestly, once you're in blue you might as well just ditch that plan and go with the usual Restricted List of draw cards anyway.  Which is not what i'm doing here, dammit. Spellstutter Sprite, Plaxmanta, and Trinket Mage make your Stampedes potent ways to dig for answers.

This deck would play a little differently from the first; basically you'd roll out a Magus / Energy Flux / Pillar / Cage, depending on the match, and then protect it until your beaters can finish the job.  Again, each new beater that shows up, in theory, can further cut the opponent off resources.  What I like about this deck concept is that the dredge hate is maindeck, and then you have lots of space in the sideboard for shops, storm, aggro, and blue, which you'd otherwise be soft against.

I dunno, what do you think?
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Guli
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 09:36:41 pm »

I think if you are adding blue, Edric is the right card to draw into more threats.

I think Thalia turn 1 is important to bypass an early Mana drain.

I think Daze is important to protect that first creature.

I think Chalice is a super strong disruption piece to fight moxes, ywill, tinker, and that we should not run any 1 cc card with the exception of SB tech versus Workshop, Dredge and Oath. (STP, Cage) This to easily set chalice @ 1 which can be a key play in many match ups.

I think making Mental Misstep dead by not playing any potential targets is good. It is also very important that Daze is 2cc and free. With Thalia and Teeg on board, Drain and FoW can be dismantled too with Daze backup.

I think without Blue, you should look into Stoneforge Mystic or Survival of the fittest to generate some card advantage while keeping up the pressure. (clock or new effects)

I think Tarmogoyf has an invisible effect written on it, and it is not just 'clock' or muscle power.

I think in Naya 1 Fauna Shaman can't hurt since you really want to play 4 Teeg and 4 Thalia. I would also consider 1x Goblin Bombardment. With all the effects and beatdown, it has the effect of killing a turn faster. Also an interesting response to those snap mage/removal strategies and cycling thalia's and teegs by trading with confidants. Also interesting is that you can now sac a bear to hit Golem and then first strike block with Thalia. Strong answer versus Oath too untill you get an answer.


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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 11:14:37 pm »

Has anyone tried Bloodbraid Elf in this deck...? I know it'd be pretty rare (though wildly sweet) to flip Stampede off a cascade trigger, but seems like with ~30 critters floating around you would usually at least get 2 dudes for the price of 1, one with haste and 3 power.
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Guli
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 05:23:19 am »

Has anyone tried Bloodbraid Elf in this deck...? I know it'd be pretty rare (though wildly sweet) to flip Stampede off a cascade trigger, but seems like with ~30 critters floating around you would usually at least get 2 dudes for the price of 1, one with haste and 3 power.
Yes, I did. Not always good, sometimes very strong. Cascading into Thalia or Elvish Spirit Guide... Huge difference.
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xouman
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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 09:04:22 am »

Spellstutter in that ugr deck sounds awful. Spellstutter is good with lots of instants to play, so you can save the mana for spellstutter or another instant.

Ancient tomb in a 3 color deck is also not a good choice imho, and much less if you maindeck magus, lots of times you will manascrew yourself. And 15 lands are too few, even with 8 spirit guides. For the WGR version you may try Pale Recluse, while it's not a fetchland, it can fetch for forest/plain under magus and you keep it with Lead the Stampede.

As you don't play silent stone, you can try Mask of Memory. It costs 2 and equips paying 1, and equipped creature must damage opponent. The effect is quite nice, drawing 2 cards and discarding 1 (most of the time repeated creatures or unneeded lands). However, in order to get card advantage I'd play noble fish, exalted+selkie provides a good amount of cards, and all cards are good by themselves.
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Daenyth
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 12:46:25 pm »

Have you considered Sylvan Library?
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