How to respond to the creature removal as beatdown

[bluemage55]

I have a strong intuition that the key to solving this format is to play more Jace, the Mindsculpter in one's creature decks.  If you have Jace it doesn't matter if they can remove your guys, because you have Jace...

The problem with playing Jace is that it is mana-intensive, and it's difficult to resolve a 2UU card in a deck with a low-mana curve, Null Rod/Waste/Strip, and probably not overwhelmingly blue.  It's also difficult to protect as an aggro deck, and fewer things will turn the game into a complete route than Jace getting Drained.  If you start to tune an aggro deck to play an increased mana curve, card drawing to support consistent mana development, and counters to protect Jace... you're not playing aggro anymore.

Bob makes a lot more sense in the same role, since you get the same CA pressure for a much more accessible mana cost, and on a 2/1 body to boot.

Also, Mystic Remora is a pretty solid way to protect one's guys from removal, since you'll be getting further ahead on resources every time they try and pick off one of your pieces.

Same problem with Jace applies here: Remora requires more lands and moxen than an aggro deck can support.

Once you start tuning an aggro deck to make optimal use of Jace and Remora, you'll quickly find that you're basically playing Gro.  Not that playing Gro is bad, however, but it's not really what we’d be aiming for here.

[nineisnoone]

What I would play? Mana denial is fine. Anything is fine. I'm not really sure what your getting at. My point is to not attack Snapcaster directly, but preemptively/proactively. The whole idea behind aggression/attrition is to get ahead of their late game, not try to challenge it. For instance, while Tarmogoyf directly does nothing against SCM or Jace, he can potentially kill the opponent before either can be set up. I don't see the need to do anything special.

Backing up your creatures with Remora is almost always an excellent play. It forces your opponent to deal with the threats and allows you to get ahead quickly. While I love Jace as much as the next guy, Remora fits so well with a beatdown plan.

Why wouldn't you just run Standstill over Remora? Aggro decks tend to be mana light. Fishstill used to be one of the popular fish variants.

[Guli]

Ok, as I understand it, the notion here is that we run cards that would replace our threats. We will not bother to protect them.

This already points out that there are 2 options already:

- protect our dudes (this on itself can be done in several ways)
- replace our dudes

So are there more than one ways to replace our dudes?

And what other options can be added besides those 2 above?

[serracollector]

If your trying to gain CA to protect your bears in a GW build, with assuming 99% creatures and lands, then wouldn't Heartwood Storyteller be much much better than remora?

Cant be misstepped
Doesn't require an upkeep
Its a creature itself
You draw no matter wat, even if they pay 4 extra mana, unlike remora
Its got 3 toughness which lets it beat down thru snaps, bobs, and pretty much everything cept goyf and trygon, and with Nobles can surpass trygons/lodestones.

And he's an easy turn 1-3 castable with nobles, esgs, and so on.

[credmond]

I've tested Storyteller. He's not bad. He's really good against Oath, assuming you have cage out or they don't already have oath out. But, otherwise he seems iffy against a lot of decks - sometimes good, sometimes so so. The problem is even though you can theoretically get him out early, you can not reliably do so and should you bend over backwards to get him out early (pitching 2 X ESG and - 2 CA) then what's the point? It's possible that I just haven't figured out how to totally break him yet though so give it a shot. The potential theoretically is there.

Bazaar + Squee is another option which really hammers nicely on the Landstill match-up and any other slow match-ups you have since you will outdraw them every time in the long run, but you need to sb a lot of the engine out in the MUD aggro matchup since you lose a land drop and critical early tempo getting it online.

[nineisnoone]

Ok, as I understand it, the notion here is that we run cards that would replace our threats. We will not bother to protect them.

This already points out that there are 2 options already:

- protect our dudes (this on itself can be done in several ways)
- replace our dudes

So are there more than one ways to replace our dudes?

And what other options can be added besides those 2 above?

Replace? I don't understand what you mean.

[credmond]

If a player has to tutor up perish to get rid of goyf and storyteller then he has given the GW player 2 cards doing so and the GW player is drawing in to more threats. Same with remora or standstill.

Ok, as I understand it, the notion here is that we run cards that would replace our threats. We will not bother to protect them.

This already points out that there are 2 options already:

- protect our dudes (this on itself can be done in several ways)
- replace our dudes

So are there more than one ways to replace our dudes?

And what other options can be added besides those 2 above?

Replace? I don't understand what you mean.

[Legolas]

Ok, as I understand it, the notion here is that we run cards that would replace our threats. We will not bother to protect them.

This already points out that there are 2 options already:

- protect our dudes (this on itself can be done in several ways)
- replace our dudes

So are there more than one ways to replace our dudes?

And what other options can be added besides those 2 above?

Replace? I don't understand what you mean.

I think he means just cast more creatures to replace the ones that got nuked

[credmond]

Ok, as I understand it, the notion here is that we run cards that would replace our threats. We will not bother to protect them.

This already points out that there are 2 options already:

- protect our dudes (this on itself can be done in several ways)
- replace our dudes

So are there more than one ways to replace our dudes?

And what other options can be added besides those 2 above?

Replace? I don't understand what you mean.

I think he means just cast more creatures to replace the ones that got nuked

No he means active replacement effects, like remora or standstill or Jace provide. For obvious reasons those won't work for GW.

[Guli]

wow guys, sorry for the confusion, but obviously I mean just making sure you draw some new threats by using some form of draw engine. Hence, you just let them nuke your dudes and cast more the next turn (replaced the old threats with new one).

Let me just call it 'draw' new threats, this should be more clear.

There is also the third possibility to get back killed/countered dudes.

[Phele]

Caller of the Claw might be a way to keep your permanent pressure stable after mass removal, but I am not sure, if it is good enough.

[nataz]

There was an oath of ghouls deck floating around a long time ago, but I'm not sure how viable that would be. Still, it's fairly cheap and does keep the threats coming.

[Guli]

Caller of the Claw looks so interesting. I don't know how to assess the card

Yes, I wonder if Oath of Ghouls would be viable again. New things have been printed. Ooze might be interesting to break the symmetry.


I have been testing out a more protective approach in the GW beats I designed. But just protection is not enough in my books. On top of the protective nature of my card choices, they also give me clock and tactical combat superiority with evasion and vigilance.

I have been testing:

Scryb Ranger
Mother of Runes
Mikaeus, the Lunarch
Mental Misstep

I feel like I can write an entire paper on these cards alone. But suffice to say, this is a very powerful way to support the big boys. I am satisfied with this configuration.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Gaddock Teeg

4 Scryb Ranger
3 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stony Silence

SB: 3 Treetop Village
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Serenity

Funny note: I just played a game versus Hexmage/Marit and I won with MoR and Scryb Ranger (pro black, untap enabled me to block all day long and swing with exalted Ranger)

Thalia and Teeg could go to 3x and 2x Canonist could be added. For those who are not eager to play 4x teeg and 4x Thalia.

[Blue Lotus]

I feel like if you are playing oath of ghouls you may as well just play dark confidant.

I do remember those lists being very sweet though.

Confidant + volrath's stonghold as a one of could be a good way to recur and get ahead.

[Legolas]

Multani's Presence could be used in a heavy blue/control meta. Could be used with chalice of the void to counter and then cycle your own dead spells. Shattering spree+Multani's Presence+CotV?
Multani's Presence lacks the legs that a beatdown deck needs. Also doesn't synergize w/heartwood storyteller.

[nineisnoone]

wow guys, sorry for the confusion, but obviously I mean just making sure you draw some new threats by using some form of draw engine. Hence, you just let them nuke your dudes and cast more the next turn (replaced the old threats with new one).

Let me just call it 'draw' new threats, this should be more clear.

There is also the third possibility to get back killed/countered dudes.

if that's what you meant, then I would count natural draw with high threat density as a third alternative (which is kind of what has been discussed so far).

if you want draw, i would suggest blue, confidant, or Bazaar. I think Bazaar should have more exploration in aggro lists. I've seen some european madness lists (admittedly awhile back) that looked very strong. Faithless Looting  could also be an option in this sort of list if you don't want to/can't go blue.

there are some other options oath, that green enchantment that (2 mana, pay4 for the card, but you get to rearrange your top 4 for free or something like that), skull clamp, but i'm not nor have i really explored those options too much.

another option i've really wanted to try out, it to make an Ajani Vengeant aggro mid-range deck. Probably R/W with Ancient Tombs (maybe not all 4) or a GRW Noble Heirarch deck. Kill Jace, Golem, and anything less than Tarmo or BSC. If you can survive the swing, it can lock down one of those as well. Three turns with Null Rod/Stoney out means no mana for the opponent.

[Legolas]

if that's what you meant, then I would count natural draw with high threat density as a third alternative (which is kind of what has been discussed so far).

there are some other options oath, that green enchantment that (2 mana, pay4 for the card, but you get to rearrange your top 4 for free or something like that), skull clamp, but i'm not nor have i really explored those options too much.

natural draw with high threat density and then playing new dudes is what I assumed was meant by replacing guys, and is a good option for this deck.

sylvan library could be a real house in the right mono green, red/green or white/green deck. also made me think of Mirri's Guile (not so hot). Has a nice ability, but doesn't create any CA.

[nineisnoone]

if that's what you meant, then I would count natural draw with high threat density as a third alternative (which is kind of what has been discussed so far).

there are some other options oath, that green enchantment that (2 mana, pay4 for the card, but you get to rearrange your top 4 for free or something like that), skull clamp, but i'm not nor have i really explored those options too much.

natural draw with high threat density and then playing new dudes is what I assumed was meant by replacing guys, and is a good option for this deck.

sylvan library could be a real house in the right mono green, red/green or white/green deck. also made me think of Mirri's Guile (not so hot). Has a nice ability, but doesn't create any CA.

I keep hearing good thing about Slyvan, but had always presumptively dismissed it. I know Guli likes the card, and it's popped up in a list or two. I may have to reconsider it, but honestly at the moment i'm still not hot on the card. 8 life is a lot to get CA.

[ed0]

I keep hearing good thing about Slyvan, but had always presumptively dismissed it. I know Guli likes the card, and it's popped up in a list or two. I may have to reconsider it, but honestly at the moment i'm still not hot on the card. 8 life is a lot to get CA.

the power of Sylvan Library is less in it's ability to draw but in its ability to manipulate your drawstep. with library out you always at least draw the best card of your top3. and if your opponent is planning on comboing out with blightsteel or you have some way to regain life (say in a G/W(/U) deck with stoneforge and batterskull) you can draw an additional card every now and then.

[Guli]

I like the card indeed, but it feels like ages since I used it as a draw engine. In a very old Oath (black one) list I used Sylvan and Children of Korlis. And more recently I used Sylvan with Death's Shadow to boost Shadow while generating CA and tempo.

In reference to this topic, I don't know if generating CA by cards that draw is the right way to go to respond to the removal. I also had to conclude that even Mother of Runes is not safe. If the timing is off, and they happen to have the removal before MOR is active, then the attempt to protect failed.

A couple of posts ago and in the beginning of this thread I tried to say that listing up concretely what is out there might help a lot to fight the dangers. I think a lot of the removal prays on the low toughness of our bears. And those who don't usually can be countered by Mental Misstep.

Scryb Ranger and Mikaeus are both very strong right now on their own. Together they end games in decks such as GW beats because:
- You have a lot creatures that will benefit from the +1+1 counters
- The other bears you play are highly disruptive and effective at slowing the game down

Mikaeus is also back breacking versus dredge bridges and gives you the clock you need to put them in the red zone fast.

Creatures that have a high toughness naturally also will do well I think. Such as Tarmogoyf, Trygon, Knight of the Reliquary...

[bluemage55]

I keep hearing good thing about Slyvan, but had always presumptively dismissed it. I know Guli likes the card, and it's popped up in a list or two. I may have to reconsider it, but honestly at the moment i'm still not hot on the card. 8 life is a lot to get CA.

The biggest problem with Sylvan Library is that it applies too little pressure to the opponent unless you're burning a lot of life.  Bob is often a much better choice at the same role, since it costs less life and gives you a 2/1 body to boot.

[bluemage55]

Scryb Ranger and Mikaeus are both very strong right now on their own. Together they end games in decks such as GW beats because:
- You have a lot creatures that will benefit from the +1+1 counters
- The other bears you play are highly disruptive and effective at slowing the game down

They're not strong on their own.  They're only strong together as a questionable two-card combo that is often win more.  They're close to worthless individually except in a few corner cases, and on the off-chance that you assemble the combo in a deck with little or no tutoring, it neither disrupts the opponent nor ends the game immediately.

[Guli]

Scryb Ranger and Mikaeus are both very strong right now on their own. Together they end games in decks such as GW beats because:
- You have a lot creatures that will benefit from the +1+1 counters
- The other bears you play are highly disruptive and effective at slowing the game down

They're not strong on their own.  They're only strong together as a questionable two-card combo that is often win more.  They're close to worthless individually except in a few corner cases, and on the off-chance that you assemble the combo in a deck with little or no tutoring, it neither disrupts the opponent nor ends the game immediately.

I am not convinced what you say is true. I have found Mikaeus without Ranger to be strong enough when you drop him as a 3/3 or 4/4. The option to pump up all your dudes, even at a slow rate, is a threat that has to be dealt with. Also, versus dredge, he can wait around pump your dudes, and then sac at the right time to nail a couple of bridges.

Ranger is an antisphere versus Workshop. Their crucible locks don't really work anymore. While doing his 'tricks' he doesn't cost mana, he actually generates mana. He is a good response to Tangle Wire, you flash him in to the triggers and avoid some of the damage. Ranger is also nice to flash in at end of combat against blue to lure out that mana drain. Jace can't bounce it and with exalted around, he puts pressure. I have found Ranger important when facing opposing creatures for its vigilance ability.

An example, I have Thalia, Ranger and 2 land. Normally I can't play my Stony Silence, but with Ranger I actually have 3 lands. This is huge, it enables you to play more threats and work with less lands on the board. High threat density is one way of fighting removal/counters.

[Guli]

I keep hearing good thing about Slyvan, but had always presumptively dismissed it. I know Guli likes the card, and it's popped up in a list or two. I may have to reconsider it, but honestly at the moment i'm still not hot on the card. 8 life is a lot to get CA.

The biggest problem with Sylvan Library is that it applies too little pressure to the opponent unless you're burning a lot of life.  Bob is often a much better choice at the same role, since it costs less life and gives you a 2/1 body to boot.

Wouldn't good old Selkie be better when exalted is around. And personally, I found gold with Mikaeus, so Selkie seems even more attractive.

And about your arguments on pressure, not everything can and must be direct pressure. I have thought this way for years, effect is tempo, and preferably everything with an immediate effect. Nowadays, I believe you must nuance this and divide your pressure cards at least into 2 categories. The ones with immediate pressure and those who have long term effects (and answering different match ups). Stoneforge Mystic is a very slow card in the eternal format, but it is still viable right? It fills up some holes you create while playing with things like Thalia, Canonist or Revoker, whom aren't exactly very strong against Workshop for example. It is oké to play with cards that don't impact the game the very turn they are cast. Besides, Ranger does impact the game on the spot (while Mikaeus does not). Ranger enables higher threat density by generating mana with minimum land count, while Mikaeus can potentially make ALL of your bears big enough to survive Clasm, Massacre and Burn spells. He is my Tarmogoyf with special abilities

[bluemage55]

I am not convinced what you say is true. I have found Mikaeus without Ranger to be strong enough when you drop him as a 3/3 or 4/4. The option to pump up all your dudes, even at a slow rate, is a threat that has to be dealt with.

In other words, he works when you have 4 or 5 mana in an aggro deck and the opponent is locked down enough that you can use him for a few turns?  That's a classic case of win more; he's a dead card when the game is still contested and only helps you win faster when you've already won.

Also, versus dredge, he can wait around pump your dudes, and then sac at the right time to nail a couple of bridges.

That would be one of the aforementioned corner cases.  There's much better options against Dredge though.

Ranger is an antisphere versus Workshop. Their crucible locks don't really work anymore. While doing his 'tricks' he doesn't cost mana, he actually generates mana. He is a good response to Tangle Wire, you flash him in to the triggers and avoid some of the damage. Ranger is also nice to flash in at end of combat against blue to lure out that mana drain. Jace can't bounce it and with exalted around, he puts pressure. I have found Ranger important when facing opposing creatures for its vigilance ability.

Those would be examples of corner cases.  And again, there are better options for the same purposes.

An example, I have Thalia, Ranger and 2 land. Normally I can't play my Stony Silence, but with Ranger I actually have 3 lands. This is huge, it enables you to play more threats and work with less lands on the board. High threat density is one way of fighting removal/counters.

Yes, it’s obvious that Ranger can generate 1 mana per turn when you have no more lands to drop… except that Noble Hierarch and even Werebear for that if it was really an issue, and they do it much better.

[bluemage55]

Wouldn't good old Selkie be better when exalted is around. And personally, I found gold with Mikaeus, so Selkie seems even more attractive.

Selkie is a viable alternative to Bob.  The main drawback is that it costs 3 mana, so you would need to consider your deck's mana curve to figure out which is superior.  Another alternative is Ninja of the Deep Hours.  Regardless, my point is that there are superior choices to Sylvan Library.

And about your arguments on pressure, not everything can and must be direct pressure. I have thought this way for years, effect is tempo, and preferably everything with an immediate effect. Nowadays, I believe you must nuance this and divide your pressure cards at least into 2 categories. The ones with immediate pressure and those who have long term effects (and answering different match ups).

I did not say Sylvan Library doesn’t apply pressure.  I said it applies too little pressure.

AndIt is oké to play with cards that don't impact the game the very turn they are cast.

Obviously I don’t disagree, or I wouldn’t have advocated in favor of Bob and Goyf in this thread.

What I don’t think is okay is playing with cards that don’t impact the game in any meaningful way until it is already over.

Besides, Ranger does impact the game on the spot (while Mikaeus does not). Ranger enables higher threat density by generating mana with minimum land count, while Mikaeus can potentially make ALL of your bears big enough to survive Clasm, Massacre and Burn spells. He is my Tarmogoyf with special abilities

Except that Ranger is an inferior choice for a mana-producing creature, and Tarmogoyf costs 2 mana for a 4/5 or better while Mikaeus would cost at least 5 mana for a 4/4.

[nineisnoone]

I keep hearing good thing about Slyvan, but had always presumptively dismissed it. I know Guli likes the card, and it's popped up in a list or two. I may have to reconsider it, but honestly at the moment i'm still not hot on the card. 8 life is a lot to get CA.

The biggest problem with Sylvan Library is that it applies too little pressure to the opponent unless you're burning a lot of life.  Bob is often a much better choice at the same role, since it costs less life and gives you a 2/1 body to boot.

Yeah, I'm not big on it. Just playing devil's advocate.

[Guli]

Thrun, the Last Troll seems like an interesting card that will only die to Perish. And Perish only comes in game 2 and game 3. And in the TPS or combo match up it is Thalia and Mana denial that will win the games anyway (alongside Teeg).

The idea is: if you can't prevent them from killing and countering your stuff, just run something that they can't counter and remove and that is a big threat.

[bax]

I think this discussion si slowly drifiting from "how to protect your creatures" towards "how to fight the control match-up".,

To me, the second question is more interesting than the first. In fact how to protect your creatures i would be tempted to say that the best protections for GW would be Daunteless Escort or Brave the Elements (which protects virtually all but noble hierarch)

The second - and more itneresting question - instead is not a very easy one to answer because depends on how we decide to fight the control match-up.
1. We could go for higher threat density
2. we could go for threats protections
3. we could go towards differentiating threats (such as Root Maze/Choke/thorn of Amethyst)
4. we could go making sure their counterspell do not counter our critical threats.

I believe the most efficient way to go is nr.4, Why ? Becasue it is the only interactive way to go.

Within option 4 we have different options again:
1. Gaddock + Thalia + Shusher (or Grand Abolisher) - stop counters by establishign also board advantage
2. Mental Mistep and Mindbreaker Trap in our deck/sideboard - no board advantage but higher interaction and stops your oppo to cast tinker in turn 1 if he knows you run traps
3. Orim's Chant/Silence. This i think is the weakest of the options as forces you to take the initiative rather than react to something your oppornents play.


Now all in all - my favourite route today wouls be having 2 shusher maindeck and 2 in side plus some mental misstep and a mix of orhan viper and sylvan library main deck to generate some CA.

The question now is, by intrducing those cards how much weaker do we become versus other matchup ?

[bluemage55]

Thrun, the Last Troll seems like an interesting card that will only die to Perish. And Perish only comes in game 2 and game 3. And in the TPS or combo match up it is Thalia and Mana denial that will win the games anyway (alongside Teeg).

Thrun is also 2GG and underwhelming for it's cost.  By the time you can afford to drop it, you would have instead wished you had instead cast a more easily removed 4/5 2 turns earlier (Goyf).

I'm not sure why you keep overlooking mana cost when you make suggestions.  Given that you clearly understand that threat density is critical, why do you have such a difficult time realizing that high cc options are terrible for aggro?  Aggro decks don't have the card drawing/filtering/land count to consistently drop lands past turn 3, don't have a ton of acceleration, and make use of cards that slow their own development as well as their opponents (Null Rod, Wasteland, etc.).  Because of this, you don't want to run 4+ cc spells in an aggro deck unless it offers a huge benefit (e.g. something like Sower).  We don't want to start packing in mana and acceleration just so we can consistently cast overcosted bears.