Nature's Claim main deck in GW beat variants

[Guli]

Like the topic states. Here are some reasons why I think maindeck claim removal would be warranted:

- Batterskull
- Metalworker/Lodestone Golem/Smokestack
- Time Vault
- Oath of Druids
- Stony Silence

That hits 4-5 different archetypes we want to compete against. Also there is this issue of Chalice. You want Chalice removal with cards that cost 1 cvc and 2 cvc. Usually that is Pridemage.

EDIT* Deglamer might also be an interesting maindeck card that could avoid missteps and chalice 1 game 1. But it also answers Tinker!!

Discuss both please.

[bax]

I think is it inefficient in a deck that doesn't draw card such as GW to have nature's claim maindeck for the following reasons:

Nature's claim is a striaght 1 for 1.

1. You already have Stony Silence maindeck (that block Time Vault, Moxes, crypt, Sol ring etc) - if you do not have stony silence in maindeck you should consider it before considering nature's claim - this is 1 of your card for many of your oppennet threats
2. You already have Qasali maindeck (that destroy all artifact/enchantments you could deal with Claim) - if you do not have Qasali in maindeck you should consider it before considering nature's claim - this is 1 of your card for 1 of your oppennet threats but in the meantime increase the beatdown and allows silly tricks in combat.
2. You probably have Kataki maindeck that shuts down almost completely a workshop deck - if you do not have kataki maindeck you should consider it before considering nature's claim - this is 1 of your card for many of your oppennet threats
3. Nature's claim optimize your opponent misstep and CotV@1 making them actually useful! usually against GW those are dead cards. Why would you want to include a card that would reduce the amount of dead draw your oppo could have ?
3. Claim do not get rid of BSC which is one of the biggest threat to GW

So it is an all round no, no no. I would keep going with 3 Claim in the sideboard and will side them in only against oath and mud.

[Guli]

I believe that the Oath match up doesn't really care about you Stony and Kataki. Also a turn 1 Metalworker would mean you need 2 mana to disrupt them or you just lose. Kataki or Stony are great but you need STP or Claim right there on turn 1.

I can see STP+Claim and Pridemage+Kataki work out nicely. (All maindeck) Sure you get hit by an early chalice 1, but Kataki eats that alive and Pridemage can remove that chalice.

I am ignoring the Misstep argument, because it is being used way too much in debates. Why run any cards with cmc 1, Mental Misstep counters them ALL... But when you run cards that above cmc 1 then sphere effects are used as an argument. Come one now... By that logic, we can't play anything.

I believe Claim's should be played main deck because it is very versatile and gives you outs early on.


Personally I am running Bob's on my GW beats variant because I can, they don't demand a lot from the deck, just 1 black mana and off you go... No tapping, connecting, just minimal life loss that is it. Which brings me to another interesting thing about running both STP and Claim main deck. Gaining life by targeting your own things etc... (late game)

Stony is still an option alongside the cards above, but I guess that you could try to skip it if you have covered the holes by other means.

[bax]

Currently i am running a GWu variant with Ancestral Recall and Time Walk maindeck (and one Edric) as the only blue spells in the main deck.

I do not have any space to put anything in, actually i am already playing 61 cards! the deck is running great to as it is, so I would need much more than the reasons you bring in the post above to the table to take something out and put claim in maindeck

I honestly would not know what to take off!

[Blue Lotus]

I'm a big fan of claim. Yes it is one for one but it is very mana efficient. Off your list at the top is fastbond. Claim in response to a gush can be backbreaking.

That chalice argument is bad. Chalice is one of the best reasons to play claim. Otherwise you don't have a good answer to chalice at two. Saying it makes chalice at 1 'live' is flawed b/c that means it did its job and kept chalice at 2 off the table.

[vaughnbros]

I definitely think fish decks should be running some sort of answer to chalice at 2 and instant speed artifact hate is always great in this format...

however I dont think the life gain your opponents getting from claim should be ignored.  4 life when your playing against creature deck is effectively donating them a fog effect and considering most games come down to 1 turn this seems like a pretty serious problem with the card.

there are two pretty solid alternatives which i would personally would prefer playing if i wanted a 1 or less answer mana answer to artifacts.

the first being oxidize, its the same mana cost and hits almost everything that you want to hit with claim except for oath, which doesn't really see a whole lot of play.

the second being abolish, im much more willing to pitch a land early game or pay extra mana late game then allow my opponent to gain life when im playing an aggro deck.  this can also be played on turn 0.  this allows for pretty huge blowouts against first turn fastbond or necropotence.  and it evades chalice at 1/ mental misstep.

[bax]

@Blue Lotus:  Well, i never said i will not side in claims vs chalice Deck and oath deck ... so i share your feelings, i just do not think i need those in the maindeck because i have more versatile cards maindeck that are enough to deal with in G1. Why ? When in play MUD in G1, often he would drop CotV@1 not knowing what i am playing. I am not particularly bothered by that, i just have to drop a kataki or a qasali and most likely i will win G1. In G2, when he will be aware of me suffering CotV@2 i will side in trygon predators (because i am currently playing a GWu variant - otherwise dust to dust) and Claims. MUD deck are not an hurdle for GW.
When i play Oath in G1 i need to get one of my 3 Grafdigger's cage maindeck out fast enough or drop a qasali. After side in addition to the cages i will side in Claims and Predator again. I feel well protected vs Oath.

Both match-up are not bad preside without claims and post side the claim go in. There is no strong reason enough to play them maindeck.

@vaughnbros
If in G1 MUD opens with a CotV@2 i scoop. I am not even going to waste time. But that is unlikely unless he knows what i  m playing. After side is a completely different game
Oxidize is not good vs Oath and Abolish isn't good vs oath either and require to discard a plain ... is better suited for mono white. Sideboard is crowded too, i can't afford to put in cards such as abolish and oxidize which are good only vs one match-up.

@Guli
a turn1 metalworker (which means is cast with workshop) is dealt with a kataki .. very simply, or with a stony silence, or a qasali or a swords to plowshare ... dont neec claims

[TheWhiteDragon]

I had a claim in each of my fish variants, and they all got cut.  Trygon and pridemage can handle most artifacts and oath.  Cages are main too to handle oath.  Silence can handle time vault and metalworker.  Plows handle creature problems (i prefer path to exile myself)  I also run my deck with 3 relic-wardens which are a beast vs oath/tinker/shops.  Artifact/Enchantment gameplans are really not the biggest pains for fish - other fish variants and blue with board sweepers are.

There are many "tool" fish that can be included to handle many situations...the only "instant" answer I think worth the cut is counters (if you choose to run any) and plow/path since aggro/BSC are your biggest concerns.

[Englishman_in_NH]

Has anyone tested Kavu Predators with Swords and Claim main deck in a base GW deck? I haven't played beats decks much but it seems like it might have some merit.

[Guli]

@Bax, that turn 1 Metalworker is so lethal that you really need an answer right? Having something like 3 stp and 3 claims main deck will give you more game against that kind of openings. And if you don't get any of those, you probably got a mox so you can drop the answer that has 2 cc. If your main deck does not dedicate adequate amount of slots that are cheap and get the job done, then you can have all the kataki and pridemage and trygon maindeck and in your hand. Too late is too late... And I completely agree about the chalice issue, if they stop claim, then you will still be able to play your bombs like Kataki and Pridemage.

@Thewhitedragon, those are interesting remarks. But do note that I am suggesting Claims ALONGSIDE Stp, Kataki and Pridemage. These cards all hit more than 2 match ups. My question is, will they get the job done versus any Workshop deck? Obviously there will be support from the rest if the deck, like running 4 BoBs, 5 artifact acceleration mana, Nobles, ...

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think running claims WITH the other slots is wasted space.  Run 4 path/plow, not 3/3.  Use 2-3 relic warden if you really fear artifacts or oath.  You fear a turn 1 worker, but you have 4 plow effects and 3/4 stony silence (or maybe even katakis) that can all come in turn 1.  You have MORE answers than they have workers..  Once you get to turn 2, theres a good shot you dropped a pridemage, trygon, or something else to hose them.

The times you topdeck claim and don't want it will be greater than the times you wish you topdecked it...trust me.  I used to run ONE main, and there were times I didn't want to draw it.  I can't imagine running 3.  Vs decks where claim is NOT good, you will regret it.  Vs decks where it IS good, you could just as easily use relic warden, pridemage, trygon, kitaki, or your plows/silence.  If I had a deck that ran 20+ fast answers, i wouldn't be looking for spots to add 3 more.

[Guli]

You still don't get my point, I am saying it is not enough to run 4x STP. There is a concrete plan, to play land/mox claim/stp against for example turn 1 Golem. I want to have that cheap 1cc removal ready against Workshop and Oath. Then follow it up with a strong Kataki or Pridemage. You might not get to cast your 2 drops without that initial Claim/Stp.

I already talked about how Claim hits more than enough match ups. How will it ever be a dead card in this meta? Batterskull is going to net them 4 life per attack, I gladly claim it and give them a one time life boost. Crucible is also a key target when playing landstill. The only match up were claim would be dead is dredge.

Anyway, the primary goal is to reinforce Oath and Shop. I think this is necessary and I think a lot of you guys think you can easily deal with Oath and Shop because you side in some Claims and Serenity or have Cage. I think trying to win game 1 is key. And you aren't going to do that consistently without Claims. Even with Claims, you won't get there that easily...

[bax]

Guli. What do you take out to put in 3 claim?

I think we need to go as far as this to make you realize what we are saying ...

[Guli]

there is no 'we' here. I am trying to point out that you will not be able to cast your threats half of the time against Workshop with Vials. Using moxes and Elvish spirit Guides helps but Workshop will be able to power out their hand over the course of 2 turns and will continue to put pressure the next turns or 2. Just naming cards does not change the fact that you will not be able to CAST them. 'Oh I have relic warders, kataki's, Trygon, Pridemages. You can run all of them and still lose if you can't find a window. Claim and STP create that window.

[bax]

I strongly believe Claim is a very good card, but in G1 i want flexibility and not cards that are good against 20% of the potential match up. Especially with a deck that do not manipulate and do not draw.

Please tell how do i free three slots to put in Claims in G1 ! because afterwards it is clear it is a necessity against some match up and i already can identify what cards are weak in that particular instance.

Are you suggesting playing at 63 cards ? if not please tell me what do i take out to make space to claim and that is less versatile than claims.

P.S. don't want to get into an argument, if you like that choice, well feel free to, i am just saying it is a suboptimal choice

[Guli]

Tell me this then, how often did you lose to a turn 1 Metalworker because you had no stp in opening 7 or you had only 1 mana and a Stony or Kataki. Or you had 2 mana and Pridemage but could not blow up Metalworker.

How often did you lose to a turn 1 Golem followed by wires and Metamorph and you could just not cast that Kataki...

What happens when you have to use that Qasali Pridemage on a Golem or Hellkite and they lay down a Smokestack...


What about a turn 1 Oath of Druids? Or someone that plays a quick TV and a Key or Fastbond? Claim is much more than just a 1 versus 1 trade in these situations..

I also don't know what list you are talking about bax. Feel free to post it here so we can all form an image.

[bax]

Sometimes i have lost to a tunr 1 metalworker, it happens. My aggregate (pre and post side) stats in tournaments vs MUD are still 80% win 20% loss.

It did also happen turn 1 metalworker and in my turn i did land, ESG, Kataki which is a dead metalworker, It did also happen i opened mox pearl STP, wasta on workshop and proceeded to win, or land ESG Stony silence. It also happened i opened post side vs MUD with land, ESG lotus Trygon + Kataki ...

All of the above is irrelevant. I will not keep an hand that turn 1 is not devastating for my oppo in G1 in a tournament - i would when i am playing for fun but not in a competitive environment.

Turn1 metal worker, turn 1 golem, turn 1 Bob are all things i do not particularly care. Turn 1 tinker for colossus i worry and have only 3 outs, my STP - claims will not help me here. Turn 1 Bazaar worries me as i only have 3 cages maindeck, claims will not help me. Forbidden, mox, Oath is the only situation where i really worry and claim would have helped - but i have to play vs oath, be on the draw and he should be lucky enough to have a forbidden a mox and an oath in hand. Turn 1 CotV@2 i scoop.

The list i am talking about is the current one i am playing and which is behaving quite well considering -> http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1567&highlight=1#place1

P.s. one hint, hands with just one mana with this deck must be a mulligan.

[Guli]

Problem with mulling with GWx beats is that it can get worse, it needs every card it can get.

I will test that deck versus every MUD, Shop, Stax !whatever they are called) version out there.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Tell me this then, how often did you lose to a turn 1 Metalworker because you had no stp in opening 7 or you had only 1 mana and a Stony or Kataki. Or you had 2 mana and Pridemage but could not blow up Metalworker.

How often did you lose to a turn 1 Golem followed by wires and Metamorph and you could just not cast that Kataki...

What happens when you have to use that Qasali Pridemage on a Golem or Hellkite and they lay down a Smokestack...


What about a turn 1 Oath of Druids? Or someone that plays a quick TV and a Key or Fastbond? Claim is much more than just a 1 versus 1 trade in these situations..

I also don't know what list you are talking about bax. Feel free to post it here so we can all form an image.

How often did your opponent fire off a tinker for BSC and you ripped one of your claims instead of that 4th plow?  How often did your opponent land a golem and chalice @0, where your claim sat in hand with you stuck on 1 mana, only to get buried by metamorphs and tangles the following turn?  How often did you face an opposing fish deck with goyfs bigger than your 2/2s and you rip claim instead of plow because you cut 1?

We can play the what if game all day.  I don't think YOU get it.  Fish has a strong match against shops and oath already!!!  You have a LOT of answers to their attack.  If you want an answer to their super-bomb turn one God hand that will crush you if you don't have a 1 drop answer in hand (and the 4 plows are magically your last 4 cards in the deck), then fine - you shoot off claim to hit their turn 1 mox/orchard/oath and they have double misstep with time walk and force of will backup.  That's how the "what if" game is played.

More than likely you WILL win g1 vs those matches and your odds are only better g2/3 after sb. If you plan on their world-crushing hands every game, then there is nothing you can do - a claim won't save you.  If you REALLY feel that shops/oath is a bad matchup for you G1, then you aren't playing fish right.

You have made it obviously clear however that you are not interested in logical responses.  You have set your mind to adding 3 claims and you are going to do that no matter what anyone says.  So have fun with that and stop wasting time by asking for opinions you intend to discard because you have already settled on a decision.

[madmanmike25]

I ran it in my GW lists and I can't recall a single time it was dead.  The instant speed worked lovely in response to Tangle Wire.  Also, its not much but sometimes an opponent might over extend himself tapping his critters, and you can get rid of a useless mox late game for a quick 4 life.

Cards like Qasali are really good, but remember it would cost 3 mana to cast and activate at once.  When considering you might see Lodestones and Sphere of Resistance, that low 1cc could really make all the difference in removing a crucial artifact/enchantment.

Who cares if its dead vs Dredge?  Thats one matchup.

[Guli]

Tell me this then, how often did you lose to a turn 1 Metalworker because you had no stp in opening 7 or you had only 1 mana and a Stony or Kataki. Or you had 2 mana and Pridemage but could not blow up Metalworker.

How often did you lose to a turn 1 Golem followed by wires and Metamorph and you could just not cast that Kataki...

What happens when you have to use that Qasali Pridemage on a Golem or Hellkite and they lay down a Smokestack...


What about a turn 1 Oath of Druids? Or someone that plays a quick TV and a Key or Fastbond? Claim is much more than just a 1 versus 1 trade in these situations..

I also don't know what list you are talking about bax. Feel free to post it here so we can all form an image.

How often did your opponent fire off a tinker for BSC and you ripped one of your claims instead of that 4th plow?  How often did your opponent land a golem and chalice @0, where your claim sat in hand with you stuck on 1 mana, only to get buried by metamorphs and tangles the following turn?  How often did you face an opposing fish deck with goyfs bigger than your 2/2s and you rip claim instead of plow because you cut 1?

We can play the what if game all day.  I don't think YOU get it.  Fish has a strong match against shops and oath already!!!  You have a LOT of answers to their attack.  If you want an answer to their super-bomb turn one God hand that will crush you if you don't have a 1 drop answer in hand (and the 4 plows are magically your last 4 cards in the deck), then fine - you shoot off claim to hit their turn 1 mox/orchard/oath and they have double misstep with time walk and force of will backup.  That's how the "what if" game is played.

More than likely you WILL win g1 vs those matches and your odds are only better g2/3 after sb. If you plan on their world-crushing hands every game, then there is nothing you can do - a claim won't save you.  If you REALLY feel that shops/oath is a bad matchup for you G1, then you aren't playing fish right.

You have made it obviously clear however that you are not interested in logical responses.  You have set your mind to adding 3 claims and you are going to do that no matter what anyone says.  So have fun with that and stop wasting time by asking for opinions you intend to discard because you have already settled on a decision.

I don't know if that is true, that the Shop and Oath match up is already strong. I believe you are taking those archetypes way too lightly. Maybe claim is not the answer, but you seem extremely sure about your statement. There are a lot of different Oath and Workshop designs out there, you can't tell me that every GWx beats has a good match up against all of them. And if one given GW versions (with or without splash) has a strong match up against both these archetypes at the same time, then surely there must be concession on some other match up?

You got some ballz saying that I am playing fish wrong... but ok, I don't mind.. Let's just stay on topic.

On topic:
If you don't run blue, so either a pure GW version or splashing some black or red, then you can't counter those early threats. I think this is why Trygon and Pridemage shine so much and I think this is what you are talking about when saying the match up is good. Counter/Cat does good indeed if they don't draw the nuts. But decks that don't run enough blue or blue at all, can't run Force of Will. And Misstep does not help that much either right? So it has to come from durable strong permanents. In my opinion the best 2 drops are Kataki and Pridemage versus Shops. Versus Oath it is probably Pridemage and Meddling Mage. But these cards can not consistently get active on turn 1 and not even turn 2 sometimes. So what is your suggestion here then?

[TheWhiteDragon]

I run 3-4 leonin relic warder as I stated before...never less than 4 pridemage...usually at least 2, if not 3, trygons...and silence/cage...and kitaki usually in the sb.  You highly under estimate relic-warden as he removes oath, BSC, vault/key, metalworker AND aggro or prison stax pieces.  It is really good. Vs decks that have aggro, you don't attack or block with him and then he's no worse than a disenchant effect.  If they DON'T have aggro, like most blue decks, you can swing with him, possibly being a 3/3 or more with nobles, and be safe from even flashed snapcasters or avens.  Even if they do remove him and get their artifact back, you usually have that "window" to land a trygon or pridemage, and then they waste their removal on your warder.

To be honest, I run mostly GWU (some versions even with tinker/inkwell), or GWB for bobs/dismembers/tutors and less cages/silence/plows since the tutors and draw get those for me.  I think the loss of counters hurts from blue, but the loss of ancestral, walk, and trygon are MUCH bigger concerns.  You have nobles and birds, so there's no reason you shouldn't at least have ancestral, walk, 2-3 trygons, even if you splash black.  A singleton tropical island to fetch for will be fine, especially with rangers to protect it.  Ranger is also insanely good vs wastes/tangles, so you have that going for you as well vs shops.  In my GWU build, i also run 1 jace, 1 sower, and 1 stormscape apprentice, which have served me well.  Jace and sower are sometimes slow, so those go in and out of the main depending on meta (I think jace is currently out actually).  Stormscape apprentice is extremely good though.  If they oath, you can tap emakrul/BSC...same for BSC with tinker.  He's great vs aggro, tapping a golem or a tarmgoyf as well.  In that deck I have 2 selkie, 2 elric as well since that doesn't splash black.

So, in summary, at least my version of fish has trygon, apprentice, rangers, relic-warders, pridemages, paths, sower...so oath and shops don't really bother me.

[Guli]

Getting   in a GW deck is a big challenge. You will need to get a plains, and that doesn't work well with Noble and Ranger. How did you solve this without something like Vial. Esg is green too... How can you cast a Relic-Warder when they are throwing spheres and wires at you? (without blue I mean, because then you could FoW that turn 1 sphere and follow it up with Noble or something)

BTW, I don't run birds. I also don't run claims. I opened this thread as an eye opener, a trigger, to talk about some issues we all have as GW. I am TESTING claims, but so far no hard conclusions other than the fact sometimes you can't even cast Claim because of multiple spheres. The only way to really play around all this is probably Aether Vial and full acceleration. But I want that as a last resort. There must be other options. Vial is so slow... Unless we start adding things like Chalice, Revoker, Ghost Quarters with Arbiters.

I thought about red too. Instead of black. Torch Fiends for example could be interesting. Chewers are also pretty cheap and avoid Thorns.


If it is going to be Vial:

Start with this

46 cards:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Leonin Relic-Warder
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Aether Vial
4x Scryb Ranger
5x Mox Pearl, Mox emerald, Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, Mox Jet
17x Lands

This staple should secure the Workshop match up. I don't think further hate is required. The rest can be dedicated to beat all the other match ups. I don't think any specific Workshop sideboard tech is needed here.

[bax]

Stormscape apprentice is extremely good though. 

Actually there is something better out than apprentice ... Gideon's Lawkeeper.
Its casting cost is in color and you don't need to splash for him. Insanely better in the pure GW unspoilered version (Which sometimes is worth playing at some tournaments where the unspo prizes are worth it!)

[TheWhiteDragon]

I forgot about him...yes, strictly better in straight GW.  I usually run GWU, so it hasn't been so much an issue for me, but I think I would prefer white version so the same land that casts him can tap him.  Also gets around the rebs that occassionally come in to hit counters/ancestral/tinker/trygon/selkie/edric.

[boggyb]

Oh. Don't you want Stormscape instead, since he's fetchable with a green sun?

[Wagner]

Oh. Don't you want Thornscape Apprentice instead, since he's fetchable with a green sun?

Fixed.

[Guli]

I find the idea of GSZ very interesting. Not just as a 1 off but as a staple. In my latest lists I don't run a lot Gaddock, sometimes even zero. GSZ makes the deck very flexible.