New GW hatebear

[Guli]

  'a cool name'

Exalted

Activated abilities of permanents with a counter can't be activated.
Triggered abilities of permanents with a counter do not trigger.

You seek answers?

2/2

Designed to fit in existing GW shells.

[Wagner]

So this neuters all PW, Smokestack, Wire, Jitte and dark Depths? Maybe a bit on the strong side, but that could certainly see print, but probably not with Exalted, that's just pushing it.

Obvious problem is with Cumulative Upkeep, this allows you to keep any card with 1 age counter as long as you want, which might be a bit much.

[boggyb]

ha, doesn't stop Dark Depths, but yeah, too wicked, bro! Keep dreaming, though.

[Stormanimagus]

This would also stop Jace. That is huge.

[Nydaeli]

Ironically it's anti-synergistic with several elements of Guli.dec: Aether Vial, Mikaeus, and Scavenging Ooze.

Other stuff it hoses:  Chalice of the void (not @0), Engineered Explosives (not @0), Gemstone Mine, Mystic Remora.

[Guli]

Doesn't stop Oath
Doesn't stop Tinker
Doesn't stop Y will
Doesn't stop Dredge
Doesn't stop Gush
Doesn't stop TV
Doesn't stop bears... (well maybe Ooze and student...)
Doesn't stop Golem/Hellkite/Precursor/Wurmcoil...
Remora is irrelevant vs GW beats anyway...

I designed it to keep Jace/Tezz, Wires, Smokestack and Chalice (it is a tempo play vs chalice@1 which we need, shusher is slow and teeg is too late) in check. Something that hits both Shop and Blue. Teeg doesn't do that.

It does splash damage here and there but I think it is still decently narrow.

That is why I think the exalted is fine.

[boggyb]

What? Haha. This card +

Glacial Chasm
Mystic Remora
Inner Sanctum
Jötun Grunt
Phyrexian Soulgorger
heck, even Elephant Grass

is ridiculous!

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't think that card would work.  It doesn't have hexproof.

Seriously though, it's not about what the card doesn't stop so much as what it does - not just in hosing blue planeswalkers and half of stax's deck, but also in enabling some degenerate combos with anything with Cumulative Upkeep.  Remora and chasm are the two most obvious.  That could make for a noblefish deck with a ridonculous draw engine and an invincibility land.

[Guli]

Then let us slightly change it

But I think you guys are overrating those synergies..

[vaughnbros]

the triggered part of it is kind of awkward, but I dont think this is all that powerful, with the exception of exalted, the only deck it hurts a lot is espresso stax, which can still drop a chalice at 2 before he hits the table.  There are plenty of hate bears that nerf planewalkers so idk about that argument against this.  To be quite honest idk if any deck would even play this card.

Remora would also not trigger at all if this is in play so idk y people are mentioning it.  And chasm is so terrible if they waste land you or if you don't actually draw this creature.  And of course you could also always change it to read opponents as to prevent anything degenerate from cumm upkeep, although this is probably worse since you would take no drawback from him.

[Guli]

the triggered part of it is kind of awkward, but I dont think this is all that powerful, with the exception of exalted, the only deck it hurts a lot is espresso stax, which can still drop a chalice at 2 before he hits the table.  There are plenty of hate bears that nerf planewalkers so idk about that argument against this.  To be quite honest idk if any deck would even play this card.

Remora would also not trigger at all if this is in play so idk y people are mentioning it.  And chasm is so terrible if they waste land you or if you don't actually draw this creature.  And of course you could also always change it to read opponents as to prevent anything degenerate from cumm upkeep, although this is probably worse since you would take no drawback from him.

thank you

And I would play this card because you already run removal ala pridemage and stp in GW beats. But you can't win the threats war. They cast multiple threats. If you can shut down wires, chalices and smokestacks, then your usual game plan is supported and it will even out the playing field.

Important lines I play would be:

- play this guy after they cast chalice1. This reactivated your instant removal spell and noble hierarch in your hand. The difference with Gaddock and Shusher is that Shusher needs another turn to bypass chalice and most improtantly MANA which can be an issue with spheres and wires. Gaddock needs to hit BEFORE chalice and smokestack. If you get this permanent in play, it will give you breathing room, but it will NOT win the game by itself. This makes it fair in my opinion.

- A lot of times the game goes roughly equal against shops. An exciting battle and the outcome is unpredictable. Until that equality is broken with a Smokestack. I find it sad that all the effort has to go in vain. This hatebear has the potential to hold ground in those scenarios untill they can dismember or duplicant it. Again, the shop player has outs, the card is not backbreaking but it helps the GW pilot a lot, agreed.

- While revoker is good against Jace, it does not really help that much versus stacks. It is also too tiny too fragile to give GW an edge when in play. I like to be able to handle a Jace with a card that will also help me in another key match up. I think it is fair to want this kind of card, because it doesn't really stop all the broken things blue has in mind. We have Thalia and Aven to stop that.

Let's assess the card in a more honest way please. It would not be the next hot meta changing card, but it would be a card for serious consideration.

[credmond]

Is it useable if "that your opponent's control" is added to each ability in order to avoid degenerate combos (glacial chasm, remora)? Interestingly, it would still enable the opponent to play certain cards on you that then combo with its ability (e.g. elephant grass, chasm, or remora).

[Wagner]

Remora would also not trigger at all if this is in play

Seems like a lot of people keep missing this.

I still think that putting Exalted on this is too much, for the rest, it seems fine and playable, but I don't feel like it should be a lock piece AND a clock.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Hmm...if remora doesn't benefit, then it is'nt as bad.  Also, the opponent could drop a chasm and benefit from your own card (since you are the fish, you can't deal combat damage to him).

I do basically see this as a fish card that says "F*C& Jace and most of prison stax" for the sheer fact that you want an extra nail in the coffin on those matchups.

[Guli]

Remora would also not trigger at all if this is in play

Seems like a lot of people keep missing this.

I still think that putting Exalted on this is too much, for the rest, it seems fine and playable, but I don't feel like it should be a lock piece AND a clock.

These days, that is the quality we want or it just doesn't cut it anymore

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yeah, lock pieces AND clocks are just unheard of...

except Lodestone golem
oh, and phyrexian revoker
and, Thalia,
and, glowrider
oh, and gaddock teeg
and meddling mage
oooh, and aven mincensor
and leonin arbiter
and a ton of other fishies

but yeah, totally unheard of and unacceptable

[TheWhiteDragon]

The main problem I see with this card is the abusiveness of cards that give counters.  If you can put a counter on a creature, they lose all activated abilities.  If you can put it on land, you cut off their mana.  If I'm understanding it right, tap = add mana is an activated ability.

If I'm not mistaken, you also stop the entire suspend mechanic

[Wagner]

Yeah, lock pieces AND clocks are just unheard of...
phyrexian revoker
and, Thalia,
and, glowrider
oh, and gaddock teeg
and meddling mage
oooh, and aven mincensor
and leonin arbiter
and a ton of other fishies

but yeah, totally unheard of and unacceptable

All those cards are 2 power creatures, so they are not as big a clock as a 2/2 with Exalted. The only bear with exalted is Pridemage, and isn't by itself a lock piece.

My point is, the standard for hatebears is 2/2 or 2/1 for 2 mana (all of your list), it's fine to go outside the standard on occasions, but I don't think it should be done here.

[nataz]

what about an 0/1 with exaulted?

[boggyb]

The main problem I see with this card is the abusiveness of cards that give counters.  If you can put a counter on a creature, they lose all activated abilities.  If you can put it on land, you cut off their mana.  If I'm understanding it right, tap = add mana is an activated ability.

If I'm not mistaken, you also stop the entire suspend mechanic

Suspended cards aren't permanents, so I don't think it does.

This card + cyclopean tomb would be fun.

[Guli]

Yeah, lock pieces AND clocks are just unheard of...
phyrexian revoker
and, Thalia,
and, glowrider
oh, and gaddock teeg
and meddling mage
oooh, and aven mincensor
and leonin arbiter
and a ton of other fishies

but yeah, totally unheard of and unacceptable

All those cards are 2 power creatures, so they are not as big a clock as a 2/2 with Exalted. The only bear with exalted is Pridemage, and isn't by itself a lock piece.

My point is, the standard for hatebears is 2/2 or 2/1 for 2 mana (all of your list), it's fine to go outside the standard on occasions, but I don't think it should be done here.

Pridemage is removal and clock. And this can be interpreted as 'lock' piece too in a way. Especially against TV and a Shop that has no threats left and you have pridemage.

[Wagner]

Yeah, lock pieces AND clocks are just unheard of...
phyrexian revoker
and, Thalia,
and, glowrider
oh, and gaddock teeg
and meddling mage
oooh, and aven mincensor
and leonin arbiter
and a ton of other fishies

but yeah, totally unheard of and unacceptable

All those cards are 2 power creatures, so they are not as big a clock as a 2/2 with Exalted. The only bear with exalted is Pridemage, and isn't by itself a lock piece.

My point is, the standard for hatebears is 2/2 or 2/1 for 2 mana (all of your list), it's fine to go outside the standard on occasions, but I don't think it should be done here.

Pridemage is removal and clock. And this can be interpreted as 'lock' piece too in a way. Especially against TV and a Shop that has no threats left and you have pridemage.

That's not a lock piece, that's a card that will trade 1vs1 if they do play TV or a relevant artifact. Lock pieces can have a pretty open meaning, but the base of it is that they LOCK you, as in prevent you from doing something. Pridemage doesn't prevent you from doing anything ever, it just can blow some things up by trading. That's like saying Shatter is a lock piece because it can kill an artifact when you need it.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The point being, a 2/x lockpiece is commonplace.  A 3/x on the attack is hardly pushing it, considering cards like lodestone golem (the ultimate clock/lock) is in print.  3/x is hardly a sizeable threat any more than a 2/x.  But I would consider both "clocks" in terms of fish.

[Guli]

Yeah, lock pieces AND clocks are just unheard of...
phyrexian revoker
and, Thalia,
and, glowrider
oh, and gaddock teeg
and meddling mage
oooh, and aven mincensor
and leonin arbiter
and a ton of other fishies

but yeah, totally unheard of and unacceptable

All those cards are 2 power creatures, so they are not as big a clock as a 2/2 with Exalted. The only bear with exalted is Pridemage, and isn't by itself a lock piece.

My point is, the standard for hatebears is 2/2 or 2/1 for 2 mana (all of your list), it's fine to go outside the standard on occasions, but I don't think it should be done here.

Pridemage is removal and clock. And this can be interpreted as 'lock' piece too in a way. Especially against TV and a Shop that has no threats left and you have pridemage.

That's not a lock piece, that's a card that will trade 1vs1 if they do play TV or a relevant artifact. Lock pieces can have a pretty open meaning, but the base of it is that they LOCK you, as in prevent you from doing something. Pridemage doesn't prevent you from doing anything ever, it just can blow some things up by trading. That's like saying Shatter is a lock piece because it can kill an artifact when you need it.

Wrong, Pridemage locks them out of the TV win route. The term trading does not matter when we are speaking about the concept 'locking out' the opponent from a certain route of victory. They are the one trading at that point, their win condition against your clock.

And I agree that power 2 or 3 are all clock in terms of Fish.

[Wagner]

So with that definition, if your opponent plays TV and you FoW it, you're "'locking out' the opponent from a certain route of victory." So all counterspells are lock pieces too.
If you Duress and grab TV, you're "'locking out' the opponent from a certain route of victory.", so all discard are lock pieces too.

Pridemage is removal with a clock. It REMOVES things, it doesn't prevent them from happening, it doesn't make them harder to play (like all other lock pieces you mentioned). It's a Disenchant (removal) with a body (clock).

Anyway, this is not really relevant to the card at hand, it could see print, more busted stuff have, but I still think it would not have Exalted, it's also putting too many abilities on the same card, one of the pitfalls of card design, this thing already has you remember a ton of things on the board state.