A good sideboard option for GW beats against blue/black control?

[Guli]

Usually Massacre, Perish, Virtue's Ruin and other cards of this powerful effect sweep the board and well, it really hurts.

Maybe a good sideboard card with legs would help.

  name?
Legendary creature - type?

Pay 2 life, discard a legendary creature card: counter target instant or sorcery if it is blue or black.

2/2

[AmbivalentDuck]

If you desperately want something to deal with black "Wraths:"
Order of the Sacred Torch
Lifeforce
Planar Guide

[Wagner]

Saffi is also a good bear to protect your other dudes.

[RaZe]

1GW Llanowar Tactician

Creature - Elf Soldier

[GW][GW] Sacrifice Llanowar Tactician: If G was spend to activate this ability, untap all creatures you control. If W whas used to activate this ability, remove all creatures from the game, return them to play at the beginning of the end step.

1/1

[bluemage55]

Usually Massacre, Perish, Virtue's Ruin and other cards of this powerful effect sweep the board and well, it really hurts.

Based on this and your other posts, your approach to fish completely wrong.

You're not playing a control deck where your goal is to have answers for everything.  Focus on your own game plan, and disrupting your opponent until you get there.

Secondarily, I also have to wonder what kind of meta you play in where cards like Perish and Virtue's Ruin are major threats to you...

[Guli]

Usually Massacre, Perish, Virtue's Ruin and other cards of this powerful effect sweep the board and well, it really hurts.

Based on this and your other posts, your approach to fish completely wrong.

You're not playing a control deck where your goal is to have answers for everything.  Focus on your own game plan, and disrupting your opponent until you get there.

Secondarily, I also have to wonder what kind of meta you play in where cards like Perish and Virtue's Ruin are major threats to you...

Based on what exactly? There are tons of possible approaches possible. Besides, Fish is a completely different archetype. Beatdown is a control deck actually with aggro elements. (aggro/control) Fish too, but does it with counters and cats. Difference is in beatdown the counters have legs.

I think the responses to this potential card have been coloured and off topic for most part.

[bluemage55]

Based on what exactly?

Based on all of your threads being about how to defend your aggro deck against answers, rather than how to optimize your gameplan.

[Guli]

Based on what exactly?

Based on all of your threads being about how to defend your aggro deck against answers, rather than how to optimize your gameplan.

Are you irritated about my posts and my approach/gameplan? You don't agree about me suggesting cards to solve some issues GW beats have in a smooth way? (recycle+control)

Why don't you stick to the topic, post your opinions on the card without sticking in some personal shit.

[bluemage55]

Are you irritated about my posts and my approach/gameplan? You don't agree about me suggesting cards to solve some issues GW beats have in a smooth way? (recycle+control)

I'm not irritated.  I think you're simply mistaken, and if you actually learned how aggro fundamentally works, then you would realize that the real issues with GW beats are quite different from what you think they are.

Why don't you stick to the topic, post your opinions on the card without sticking in some personal shit.

It is relevant to the topic.  If your goal is to make your pet deck more viable, you're proposing a solution to the wrong problem.

[Guli]

Are you irritated about my posts and my approach/gameplan? You don't agree about me suggesting cards to solve some issues GW beats have in a smooth way? (recycle+control)

I'm not irritated.  I think you're simply mistaken, and if you actually learned how aggro fundamentally works, then you would realize that the real issues with GW beats are quite different from what you think they are.

Why don't you stick to the topic, post your opinions on the card without sticking in some personal shit.

It is relevant to the topic.  If your goal is to make your pet deck more viable, you're proposing a solution to the wrong problem.

That is better, you THINK I am mistaken. My question still remains, why do YOU think I am mistaken? Please send me a personal message about this and I will try to justify my choices using my shitloads of experience I had with GW beats variants (there are actually a lot more approaches and I use multiple, switch from time to time)

And pet deck is a bullshit concept.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Are you irritated about my posts and my approach/gameplan? You don't agree about me suggesting cards to solve some issues GW beats have in a smooth way? (recycle+control)

I'm not irritated.  I think you're simply mistaken, and if you actually learned how aggro fundamentally works, then you would realize that the real issues with GW beats are quite different from what you think they are.

The relative quality and fitness for Vintage of GW beats aside (Guli's results in TMD Online III speak for themselves), the strategy is entirely answered by a 3 cmc sorcery.  While it's presently only in a few sideboards, it will increase in prevalence if GW beats continues to put up results.  Also consider that this is similar to brown's susceptibility to Hurkyl's Recall.  The early history of the game had some amazing color hosers.  Consider the viability of "blue" if Gloom had been anti-blue instead of anti-white.

[bluemage55]

The relative quality and fitness for Vintage of GW beats aside (Guli's results in TMD Online III speak for themselves), the strategy is entirely answered by a 3 cmc sorcery.  While it's presently only in a few sideboards, it will increase in prevalence if GW beats continues to put up results.

Doubtful.  As sideboard cards go, Perish/Virtue's Ruin are very narrow and aren't even ideal answers because casting a 3 CMC sorcery through Waste/Strip, Null Rods, and various disruptive cards is too difficult to be worth it.  Pyroclasm is deadlier because it's far more likely to resolve

Regardless, board wipers of all sorts have existed throughout the history of Magic.  All aggro has ever needed to do is use efficient, disruptive creatures and to intelligently play around them by not overextending.  Anyone who's ever played aggro decks in the past against W/X control decks armed with Wrath effects knows what I'm talking about.

Also consider that this is similar to brown's susceptibility to Hurkyl's Recall.

And yet, Shop decks don't need a way to specifically answer it.  All they do is focus on enacting their game plan, which kills blue before it can cast Hurkyl's in the first place.

The early history of the game had some amazing color hosers.  Consider the viability of "blue" if Gloom had been anti-blue instead of anti-white.

Cards like REB, Pyroblast, and Choke exist to hose blue. They've never stopped blue from being viable.  An anti-blue Gloom wouldn't make much of a difference, because blue decks are used to dealing with much more brutal threats than that from turn 1.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Cards like REB, Pyroblast, and Choke exist to hose blue. They've never stopped blue from being viable.  An anti-blue Gloom wouldn't make much of a difference, because blue decks are used to dealing with much more brutal threats than that from turn 1.

You're claiming with a straight face that a one-sided better-than Trinisphere wouldn't be the single most brutal effect you could toss at blue?

[Blue Lotus]

You're claiming with a straight face that a one-sided better-than Trinisphere wouldn't be the single most brutal effect you could toss at blue?

Probably not. It would just use its black tutors to find EE or claim and go about its day. Or imagine tapping out for it vs. oath and them just windmill slamming oath on their turn. Or vault+key.

Point is blue hasn't been bbs for a long long time.



But what does this have to do with the OP?

Paying life isn't very green, nor is countering spells. Dauntless Escourt is kind of what you want, how about:

 
Legendary creature
Exile ~. Creatures you control get +2/+2 and are indestructible until EOT. Activate the ability only during an opponents turn.

So in standard, its just a dude that makes you block well, but in vintage it does all you want.

[bluemage55]

You're claiming with a straight face that a one-sided better-than Trinisphere wouldn't be the single most brutal effect you could toss at blue?

Brown decks can go Shop -> Trini, whereas an anti-blue Gloom requires a ritual or other acceleration to drop on turn 1.

Also, as Blue Lotus mentioned, most blue decks aren't mono-Blue, and even those that are are much less limited because an anti-blue Gloom would not stop them from dropping artifact mana to start playing around it.

[Delha]

You're claiming with a straight face that a one-sided better-than Trinisphere wouldn't be the single most brutal effect you could toss at blue?

Brown decks can go Shop -> Trini, whereas an anti-blue Gloom requires a ritual or other acceleration to drop on turn 1.

Also, as Blue Lotus mentioned, most blue decks aren't mono-Blue, and even those that are are much less limited because an anti-blue Gloom would not stop them from dropping artifact mana to start playing around it.

Practically all your bombs ARE still blue though. Jace/Tinker/AR/Walk... Sure you can tutor through this, no problem. But what you're tutoring for is probably going to be blue. Also, it becomes practically impossible to cast a spell and keep countermagic up.

Regarding the point about tutors for removal, that's valid... but only in game 2/3. Unless you're mainboarding Claims?

[The Atog Lord]

If you want to discuss how to build and play Fish and Aggro decks, please start a new thread in the appropriate forum. This is the Card Creation Forum, and this thread is for discussing Guli's proposed card. Thanks.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The two go hand in hand.  To design a card that functions as Guli desires, you first have to identify the lines of attack that harm GW beats, discern if it can already be built to mitigate them, and if not, suggest cards (printed or desired) that would suffice to that end.

My argument is that Guli ideally wants his opponents to do...nothing.  The ultimate sideboard card to answer the Massacres/Pyroclasms/Virtue's Ruins/Engineered Explosives that give him trouble is a Sphere-type effect since the wipes are actually quite varied and fungible despite that variety.

[Guli]

Note that Pyroclasm and Firespout would still work under the card I suggested. I think this is fair.

The idea is to have a good value card, not just anti board sweepers, there are too many board sweepers anyway to cover them all.

Being able to discard a LEGENDARY bear in your hand (losing a card) to counter Tinker or Y will seems pretty narrow to me but an important way to cut roads to victory. Basically my card hits a lot of strategies just like Cage does but it has a harder casting cost   and it has legs, it would not just passively sit there like Cage.

This card does absolutely nothing against Workshop and other beat decks. It could counter a dread return, but will not be able to stop dredge so it is a pretty dead card there too.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Note that Pyroclasm and Firespout would still work under the card I suggested. I think this is fair.

The idea is to have a good value card, not just anti board sweepers, there are too many board sweepers anyway to cover them all.

This says it all as to why this card won't even work the way you want.  If you really just want to kill their black sweepers, then make the effect just black (the fact you included blue shows you just want a card that hoses blue decks' main gameplan, not their sweepers - pitch kataki, gaddok, thalia, etc to stop ALL their best spells, tutors, and counters in an uncounterable way?  Yeah, real fair)

To get the effect you claim, you realize that should this effect stop perish, decks will just switch to pyroclasm.  Tons of blue decks splash red anyway.  What you really want is a card to stop their "deck", not their "hate".

How about changing it to this:

Guli Dream Guy

GW

2/2

Guli Dream Guy is uncounterable.
Opponents cannot play spells or use abilities of permanents they control.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Actually, that's an interesting one.

Bears Forever
Sorcery
When Bears Rule is played, each other player copies it.
All creatures attack this turn if able.  All creatures block this turn if able.
Epic.

And yes, I realize this card goes beyond "wet dream" for manland-based decks in every format.

[Wagner]

This has been said before, but I'll repeat it just in case.

Dauntless Escort

Creature — Rhino Soldier 3/3, 1WG (3)

Sacrifice Dauntless Escort: Creatures you control are indestructible this turn.

This card already exists, fits in the colors you want to use and saves your guys from pretty much all board sweepers you mentioned in the first post (except Massacre, that doesn't kill this guy) and is aggressive on its own.
Not sure what else you would want your card to do. Countering spells is seriously out of flavor for green.

[bluemage55]

Guli Dream Guy

GW

2/2

Guli Dream Guy is uncounterable.
Opponents cannot play spells or use abilities of permanents they control.

I loled.

More seriously speaking, I think that a fair (and color-appropriate) attempt to cover what Guli is looking for would be an efficient hatebear that also has Undying. E.g.:

Undying Mindcensor
Flash. Undying. If an opponent would search a library, that player searches the top four cards of that library instead. 2/1

Undying Goofy
Undying. 3/4

Undying Canonist
Undying. Each player who has played a nonartifact spell this turn can’t play additional nonartifact spells. 1/1

[Guli]

This is about me again now? Thanks guys... Also almost none of you actually get my point.

This has been said before, but I'll repeat it just in case.

Dauntless Escort

Creature — Rhino Soldier 3/3, 1WG (3)

Sacrifice Dauntless Escort: Creatures you control are indestructible this turn.

This card already exists, fits in the colors you want to use and saves your guys from pretty much all board sweepers you mentioned in the first post (except Massacre, that doesn't kill this guy) and is aggressive on its own.
Not sure what else you would want your card to do. Countering spells is seriously out of flavor for green.

Isn't Dauntless Escort over costed for Vintage?

[Wagner]

It does cost more than the rest of the bears, but considering you want a card that will save your ass once you already have a team out, I think 3 mana should not be that hard to reach. You can cast it on turn 2 with Hierach (not that you would want to), but that's hardly overcosted.

But sure, here is a card for you.

Brave Escort
Creature — Rhino Soldier 2/2, WG (2)
Sacrifice Dauntless Escort: Creatures you control are indestructible this turn.

Better?

[serracollector]

Hate Bear Tic-Toc
G or W or GW
1/1
Sacrifce Hate Bear Tic-Toc: Players cannot play blue or black spells this turn.

Popping him during a Big Blue players upkeep is essentially a time walk.  So this helps your hate there.

or as  White Dragon said, what about the undying ability?

Savior of the Meek
GW
2/2
Discard a creature card:  Target creature gains undying until EOT.

Would that be sufficient/more realistic?

[Wagner]

Hate Bear Tic-Toc
G or W or GW
1/1
Sacrifce Hate Bear Tic-Toc: Players cannot play blue or black spells this turn.

Popping him during a Big Blue players upkeep is essentially a time walk.  So this helps your hate there.

or as  White Dragon said, what about the undying ability?

Savior of the Meek
GW
2/2
Discard a creature card:  Target creature gains undying until EOT.

Would that be sufficient/more realistic?

I love the first one, but its scope is way bigger, it's more of an anti-counter AND anti-storm card in one more than an anti-removal.

Second one also seems perfectly fine to me, bette suited for the purpose of this tread.