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Author Topic: Dangerous Bet, Long is back?  (Read 4999 times)
Troy_Costisick
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« on: April 17, 2012, 02:34:13 pm »

Just in fromthe spoilers:

Dangerous Bet 1R
Instant
Discard your hand then draw two cards.

Looks good to me in a long or mono red shell.  What do you guys think?
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 02:55:12 pm »

Past in flames says:

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/did-we-just-become-best-friends-yep.gif
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 03:25:46 pm »

sexy time.
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 03:53:23 pm »

That's the sound of Legacy Dredge licking its lips.
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brokenbacon
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 04:16:32 pm »

YOWWWW THAT'S A SMOKER
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xouman
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 05:05:53 pm »

It's a cute card, but not sure it would see play. Maybe in a full ritual based deck, or something based in madness/dredge. I'm even considering it in TMWA, since I play it without REBS and 58 permanents, but probably is not good enough.
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DubDub
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 07:31:25 pm »

Can someone clarify when this is better than:



Or:



Obviously neither of these interacts as well with Lion's Eye Diamond.  But... LED is restricted in Vintage.  And it's only two cards... color me unimpressed.  (Maybe I'll be proven wrong.)
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
brokenbacon
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 07:54:51 pm »

That's the sound of Legacy Dredge licking its lips.
Sorry I should have clarified that's what I was referencing with my earlier enthusiasm. I personally don't think this is the new Long.dec card - it just isn't fast enough.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 07:56:43 pm »

Can someone clarify when this is better than:



Or:



Obviously neither of these interacts as well with Lion's Eye Diamond.  But... LED is restricted in Vintage.  And it's only two cards... color me unimpressed.  (Maybe I'll be proven wrong.)

Um, when your hand is empty.  When you've just cast Yawg's Will.  When you know your opponent has a red blast in hand.
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 09:03:21 pm »

Wow. I can't believe how many potential Vintage and Legacy playable cards this set is unleashing. Whether or not this will see Eternal play, it will be a card that we should be keeping in mind for the future for sure.
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DubDub
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 09:15:41 pm »

Can someone clarify when this is better than:

img]/img]

Or:

img]/img]

Obviously neither of these interacts as well with Lion's Eye Diamond.  But... LED is restricted in Vintage.  And it's only two cards... color me unimpressed.  (Maybe I'll be proven wrong.)

Um, when your hand is empty.  When you've just cast Yawg's Will.  When you know your opponent has a red blast in hand.
Oh, ok, in that case what about this comparison?

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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
nataz
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 09:21:42 pm »

yea, how is this better then nights whisper in storm? its not like you are combo'ing off on your opponents turn, plus you don't have to dump your hand.
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 11:07:15 pm »

My first thought was colored dredge. Land mox, discard hand, dredge 2 trolls?
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 12:21:10 am »

My first thought was colored dredge. Land mox, discard hand, dredge 2 trolls?

Me too.  Like Dredge needed more ways to go totally nuts on turn 1...
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credmond
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 12:32:58 am »

It's interesting primarly because its red, a color that doesn't have much draw. Decks that run black have better options. But now mono-red has something if it can reliably dump its hand or otherwise make the drawback a bonus with graveyard recursion. Goblin Welder + lots of artifact mana? Memory Jar? Big Robots?
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2012, 06:51:57 am »

Can someone clarify when this is better than:

img]/img]

PR:

img]/img]

Obviously neither of these interacts as well with Lion's Eye Diamond.  But... LED is restricted in Vintage.  And it's only two cards... color me unimpressed.  (Maybe I'll be proven wrong.)

Um, when your hand is empty.  When you've just cast Yawg's Will.  When you know your opponent has a red blast in hand.
Oh, ok, in that case what about this comparison?



Instant vs Sorcery.  NW can't dump things in the yard for later.  It costs life, which is precious nowadays.  If combo decks used to play Recoup and Burning Wish, they can certainly play this.
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DubDub
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2012, 08:45:08 am »

Um, when your hand is empty.  When you've just cast Yawg's Will.  When you know your opponent has a red blast in hand.
[...]
Instant vs Sorcery.  NW can't dump things in the yard for later.  It costs life, which is precious nowadays.  If combo decks used to play Recoup and Burning Wish, they can certainly play this.
NW is good when your hand is empty.  NW is also good when your hand is not empty.
NW is good before you cast Yawgmoth's Will.  NW is also good after you've cast Will.  If you have cast, or intend to cast Yawgmoth's Will that turn then sorcery speed doesn't matter.  If you have cast, or intend to cast Tendrils of Agony that turn then sorcery speed doesn't matter.
NW dodges Red Blast.
NW doesn't force you to dump things in the yard for later.  And doesn't force you to exile them if you've resolved Will that turn.
Yes, life is precious, but so are cards.  Again, NW is also good when your hand is not empty.

Anyway, combo decks can certainly play this, you're right.  But I don't see anything here worthy of more attention than the marginal cards that fill this space already in the format: Whisper, Winds, Strategic Planning, etc.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2012, 04:35:56 pm »

Dubdub, are you being ignorant on purpose?  Are you really going to take my argument aboit Tolarian Winds and apply it to Night's Whisper?
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DubDub
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2012, 10:36:51 am »

Dubdub, are you being ignorant on purpose?  Are you really going to take my argument aboit Tolarian Winds and apply it to Night's Whisper?
I don't think I'm being ignorant at all, let alone 'on purpose.'

You criticized Tolarian Winds on a few grounds, so I came up with Night's Whisper which dodges your criticisms, then you changed the goalposts again with new objections.  I don't think my post was in any way dismissive of the card, as I said:
Anyway, combo decks can certainly play this, you're right.  But I don't see anything here worthy of more attention than the marginal cards that fill this space already in the format: Whisper, Winds, Strategic Planning, etc.
There's nothing strictly better than the new card, so you'll always be able to find corner-cases where the new card is better than one of the cards I've mentioned.  However, I stand by my estimation that it's not any better than the collection of what's available in this space.

I mean, to say that it's better than Winds, Whisper and Planning doesn't really say that much anyway, because those three don't see much play at current.  I'm curious how strong the claim you're making is about this card?  Are you asserting that it will have more than a fractional presence in the metagame?
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
gkraigher
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2012, 10:40:59 am »

this card will be used in no decks.  I think the closest comparisons are tolarian winds and goblin lore, which see absolutely 0 play.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2012, 04:02:20 pm »

Dubdub, are you being ignorant on purpose?  Are you really going to take my argument aboit Tolarian Winds and apply it to Night's Whisper?
I don't think I'm being ignorant at all, let alone 'on purpose.'

You criticized Tolarian Winds on a few grounds, so I came up with Night's Whisper which dodges your criticisms, then you changed the goalposts again with new objections.  I don't think my post was in any way dismissive of the card, as I said:
Anyway, combo decks can certainly play this, you're right.  But I don't see anything here worthy of more attention than the marginal cards that fill this space already in the format: Whisper, Winds, Strategic Planning, etc.
There's nothing strictly better than the new card, so you'll always be able to find corner-cases where the new card is better than one of the cards I've mentioned.  However, I stand by my estimation that it's not any better than the collection of what's available in this space.

I mean, to say that it's better than Winds, Whisper and Planning doesn't really say that much anyway, because those three don't see much play at current.  I'm curious how strong the claim you're making is about this card?  Are you asserting that it will have more than a fractional presence in the metagame?

I'm just excited because I'm curious to see a mono-red storm style deck, which this would be good in.
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madmanmike25
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2012, 05:43:01 pm »

I thought about tossing this in a R/G belcher list.    Belcher plays enuf risky cards as is.
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2012, 02:09:15 pm »

Better than whisper when:

You can make use of dumping a large quantity of cards in your graveyard aside from yawgmoth's will (goblin welder, dredge mechanic, accumulated knowledge mechanic, flashback, madness, reanimation effects).

Two life is relevant (midrange blue matchups that attack lifetotals).

Instant speed is relevant (digging for action in the middle of a stack battle).


Better than tolarian winds when:

Your opponent has access to red elemental blast or pyroblast.

You have less than two cards in hand.



Better than winds of change when:

Your want to make use of your graveyard as a resource.

You do not want your opponent to see X new cards.

Mental Misstep exists and is played.

Chalice @1 exists and is played.

You have less than two cards in hand.





Playable in every deck ever? Not even. I in no way expect this card to see heavy amounts of play, if any. But there are cases and decks where it will be more synergistic than Night's Whisper, more stable than tolarian winds, and easier to resolve or benefit from than Winds of Change. It's a smaller deck decision than some, but overall it IS a new addition to the possibilities of low-level draw that does do somewhat different things.

So the answer to "why would you ever play this over Night's Whisper/insert card here?" is probably the equally well thought out answer of "when you want something this card does that the others don't do". What that is, outside of being "not blue" but dumping cards in the graveyard is beyond me, and I don't intend to find out, but that's why you would play it at any rate. __
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 02:12:14 pm by Worldslayer » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2012, 06:14:46 pm »

Yah I mean Nights Whisper is obviously a better draw spell.  This is a better discard spell though than most I can think of, other than maybe tolarian winds which it has pros and cons against situationally. Of course bazaar is the cats pajamas when it comes to discard. I doubt this makes any kind of a splash, but I would keep it in the bank for a future meta/card pool where a spell based discard deck (like reanimator or madness) is workable.
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