[PCH2] Shardless Agent

[MaximumCDawg]

Those hypergenesis lists are fun, no doubt.  Shardless Agent, in such a deck, is Show and Tell 9 - 12.  But all those lists care about is the Cascade effect; it could literally be a do-nothing enchantment that cost 1UG and it'd do the same job.  Is anyone actually suggesting such a deck could function in Vintage?  I grant you that it's now probably consistent enough, in goldfish land, but it's got a lower bound to how fast it can be because of the casting cost restriction.  So I feel like it's gonna always be curbstomped by faster decks or hated out by Shop in Vintage.

So, in Vintage, is anyone testing anything with this dude successfully?  I still believe you're ultimately going to find that shoving Grey Ogres into your deck just to make your real threats more expensive (coulda cost Thalia for 2 if you had drawn it next; but instead you drew Agent and cascaded into her.  Derp!) really any good?

[Pokey]

I just got beat by this dude in the finals of the tournament yesterday, in Bloomsburg, PA.  Seemed pretty good to me.

[vaughnbros]

I just got beat by this dude in the finals of the tournament yesterday, in Bloomsburg, PA.  Seemed pretty good to me.

Yeh he beat me in the top 4 shardless into goyf game 2 and into walk game 3, the speed that this thing generates is insane.

[psyburat]

Hopefully my track record for finding playable artifact creatures with one keyword can strike twice.

And that it did.

As Pokey and vaughnbros mentioned, I played a Shardless Agent build of Noble Fish to win a Mox Pearl in Bloomsburg yesterday.  The list, for reference:

MD:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Stony Silence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Black Lotus
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine

SB:
4 Dismember
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Serenity
3 Trygon Predator

I tested builds trying to cascade into Ancestral Visions, and even when I did the deck was so diluted that I still lost some brutality.  Shardless Agent is not something you aim to cast as soon as possible, and against blue archetypes I found myself boarding out the Dazes to ensure no completely dead flips.  I look forward to seeing what having this girl around does for Fish and the metagame.

[Blue Lotus]

Hopefully my track record for finding playable artifact creatures with one keyword can strike twice.

And that it did.

As Pokey and vaughnbros mentioned, I played a Shardless Agent build of Noble Fish to win a Mox Pearl in Bloomsburg yesterday.  The list, for reference:

MD:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Stony Silence
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Black Lotus
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine

SB:
4 Dismember
4 Ravenous Trap
4 Serenity
3 Trygon Predator

I tested builds trying to cascade into Ancestral Visions, and even when I did the deck was so diluted that I still lost some brutality.  Shardless Agent is not something you aim to cast as soon as possible, and against blue archetypes I found myself boarding out the Dazes to ensure no completely dead flips.  I look forward to seeing what having this girl around does for Fish and the metagame.

Personally I would never play daze with the card, but clearly it worked for you. Nice job on the finish, would love to read a full report.

BUG with seizes seems like a good way to keep relevant cards in vs blue and have good flips.

[MaximumCDawg]

So what exactly is the lesson here?  Does Agent function as "goyf plus a 2/2" in these lists?  I guess people would play 1WG for Quasali Pridemage if it made another 2/2 instead.  Is having another body turning out to be that relevant?

[Blue Lotus]

So what exactly is the lesson here?  Does Agent function as "goyf plus a 2/2" in these lists?  I guess people would play 1WG for Quasali Pridemage if it made another 2/2 instead.  Is having another body turning out to be that relevant?

This card does a lot of subtle things for you, which make it hard to evaluate.

The fact that it put two threats on the stack taxes your opponent's resources while advancing your game plan. Casting shardless agent:

Draws you a card
Generates 0, 1, or 2 mana
and puts a 2/2 into play.

Considering your main plan is to attack for 20, a 2/2 is always relavent.

For instance, consider cascading into null rod. One might ask is 3 mana 2/2 rod man worth playing? But, this is better than the rod creature because it is two threats that must be dealt with separately adding pressure to your opponent's resources.

Finally, there is the mental decision tax as well. Casting your 3 drop and flipping cascade creates much many decisions for your opponent yet is nearly an automated action for you. This can lead to misplays and an edge that isn't necessarily printed on the card.

[brianpk80]

So what exactly is the lesson here?  Does Agent function as "goyf plus a 2/2" in these lists?  I guess people would play 1WG for Quasali Pridemage if it made another 2/2 instead.  Is having another body turning out to be that relevant?

The lesson is that the uncharacteristically cynical approach you used in evaluating this card must now be re-examined.   

[TheWhiteDragon]

The problem I see with this card is the randomness.  Where a utility creature like ooze, or a beefstick like tarm or extra trygons could be useful, this guy can be random.  You could flip a stony silence when one is already in play.  You could flip a gaddock when one is already in play and end up with a vanilla 2/2 for the effort.  If the answer is not running legendary critters like gaddock or cards like silence/rod to avoid these randomly bad situations, then you are running a worse deck to accomodate agent.

[brianpk80]

The problem I see with this card is the randomness.  Where a utility creature like ooze, or a beefstick like tarm or extra trygons could be useful, this guy can be random.  You could flip a stony silence when one is already in play.  You could flip a gaddock when one is already in play and end up with a vanilla 2/2 for the effort.  If the answer is not running legendary critters like gaddock or cards like silence/rod to avoid these randomly bad situations, then you are running a worse deck to accomodate agent.

It's only random to the same extent that drawing a card is random. 

[serracollector]

exactly, if you hadn't cascaded into the Stony Silence you just would of drew it anyways.

[ed0]

It's only random to the same extent that drawing a card is random.  

exactly, if you hadn't cascaded into the Stony Silence you just would of drew it anyways.

That's horribly oversimplifying it.
1) As long as you have more than one card in your hand you have a choice between different plays - whatever you cascade into, you can only play that single card
2) The range of actions for that single card is greater. If you cascade into a card there are 3 possible outcomes - you can cast the card and it improves your board position or you can cast the card and it potentially improves the board position (second stony if your opponent has a single target enchantment destroyer/bouncer) or you can't cast the card at all (counterspell, legendary, ...). If you draw a card you have the additional option of delaying an otherwise impossible or inadvisable cast for a more opportune moment.
3) Saying you would've drawn the card anyway if you hadn't cascaded into it is not necessary true - as you could've drawn a more expensive card or a land and shuffled the card away before reaching it.
4) In addition it doesn't really matter because the card you play is Shardless Agent, not the card you cascade into/would've drawn the next turn. So instead of the Agent you would've played a beater with a useful effect (as you picked the card to play from the selection available in your hand, the chance for the effect to be useful is at least considerably higher).

For me there is a clear difference between a) having a good effect and beater this turn and a potentially crappy beater or effect the next turn and b) having a beater and potentially crappy beater or effect this turn and a potentially crappy beater or effect the next turn.
The potential for b) to be more powerful is certainly there, but you are buying that potential for an increased uncertainty.

[brianpk80]

ed0, while your thoroughness is commendable, your analysis grasps at straws to exaggerate the theoretical or narrow instances where a card draw is preferable to playing a spell from one's library without paying its mana cost.  There are some very marginal downsides to running this card as an engine, most of which can be diminished by design choices, but they are outweighed by the benefits. 

[MaximumCDawg]

So what exactly is the lesson here?  Does Agent function as "goyf plus a 2/2" in these lists?  I guess people would play 1WG for Quasali Pridemage if it made another 2/2 instead.  Is having another body turning out to be that relevant?

The lesson is that the uncharacteristically cynical approach you used in evaluating this card must now be re-examined.   

I deny any cynicism.  I'm just trying to wrap my mind around what Agent actually DOES for a deck.  It still sounds like it gives you a 2/2 and then a random other permanent.  I was initially - and still am - confused as to why that's good, since your other permanents would all be cheaper.  I'm gathering the following:

1) Casting a 2/2 and another card in the same turn is good because it fights countermagic, helping you resolve more threats.
2) There's practically no card in a Fish deck that you wouldn't play if it cost 1 more but also made a new 2/2 dork.
3) Agent blows away land flood, which you might be able to see coming with BS/Jace/Top and then preempt.
4) Agent replaces not only the card it took to play him (like Confidant does) but also the MANA used to play him.  In a meta where your draw engines are not expected to stick around very long (hello StP) Agent's type of card advantage might be superior.

I'm still a little nervous about the fact that Agent doesnt DO anything himself, but these points do make me reconsider my initial judgment...

[brianpk80]

I'm still a little nervous about the fact that Agent doesnt DO anything himself, but these points do make me reconsider my initial judgment...

The elusive aspect is the virtual haste on the Cascaded creature.  On turn 2, to draw a creature after resolving a spell or connecting w. Ninja is to have the opportunity to play that creature on turn 3 and have it attack on turn 4.  With the Agent, it attacks on turn 3.    

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm still a little nervous about the fact that Agent doesnt DO anything himself, but these points do make me reconsider my initial judgment...

The elusive aspect is the virtual haste on the Cascaded creature.  On turn 2, to draw a creature after resolving a spell or connecting w. Ninja is to have the opportunity to play that creature on turn 3 and have it attack on turn 4.  With the Agent, it attacks on turn 3.    

Except not really, because if you had just cast that creature INSTEAD of Agent, it would still be attacking on that turn.

[brianpk80]

I'm still a little nervous about the fact that Agent doesnt DO anything himself, but these points do make me reconsider my initial judgment...

The elusive aspect is the virtual haste on the Cascaded creature.  On turn 2, to draw a creature after resolving a spell or connecting w. Ninja is to have the opportunity to play that creature on turn 3 and have it attack on turn 4.  With the Agent, it attacks on turn 3.    

Except not really, because if you had just cast that creature INSTEAD of Agent, it would still be attacking on that turn.

Emphasis added.  The creature you're talking about is in the library.  What you would be attacking with is a creature you included in your deck instead of Shardless Agent.  It may be identical to the one in library, who knows.  What I'm talking about is a creature drawn on Turn 2 after the draw phase (Ninja, Ancestral Recall, etc.) making the comparison between cards that draw and the Cascade mechanic.   

On turn 3, in this hypothetical, both the Agent and the Cascaded creature may attack.  The Cascade not only accesses a card and generates virtual mana to play it, but if the card is a creature, it gains virtual haste in that sense as well.       

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm still a little nervous about the fact that Agent doesnt DO anything himself, but these points do make me reconsider my initial judgment...

The elusive aspect is the virtual haste on the Cascaded creature.  On turn 2, to draw a creature after resolving a spell or connecting w. Ninja is to have the opportunity to play that creature on turn 3 and have it attack on turn 4.  With the Agent, it attacks on turn 3.    

Except not really, because if you had just cast that creature INSTEAD of Agent, it would still be attacking on that turn.

Emphasis added.  The creature you're talking about is in the library.  What you would be attacking with is a creature you included in your deck instead of Shardless Agent.  It may be identical to the one in library, who knows.  What I'm talking about is a creature drawn on Turn 2 after the draw phase (Ninja, Ancestral Recall, etc.) making the comparison between cards that draw and the Cascade mechanic.   

On turn 3, in this hypothetical, both the Agent and the Cascaded creature may attack.  The Cascade not only accesses a card and generates virtual mana to play it, but if the card is a creature, it gains virtual haste in that sense as well.       

Okay, that argument works in comparing Agent to other draw engine creatures like Confidant, Ninja, Edric, Lookout, and Selkie.  I'm with you.  In a world with limited creature removal, I'd argue the tempo boost isn't worth losing the extra cards over time.  In a world full of swords, perhaps its less relevant.  But that begs the question of whether you run CA creatures AT ALL in a heavy removal meta. 

[brianpk80]

Okay, that argument works in comparing Agent to other draw engine creatures like Confidant, Ninja, Edric, Lookout, and Selkie.  I'm with you.  In a world with limited creature removal, I'd argue the tempo boost isn't worth losing the extra cards over time.  In a world full of swords, perhaps its less relevant.  But that begs the question of whether you run CA creatures AT ALL in a heavy removal meta. 

It's a hostile battlefield.   Note that running the CA critter with a tempo boost whose instant CA isn't preempted by removal is a respectable choice irrespective of how one answers the question of whether one runs other removal-vulnerable CA critters.   

[psyburat]

Personally I would never play daze with the card, but clearly it worked for you. Nice job on the finish, would love to read a full report.

BUG with seizes seems like a good way to keep relevant cards in vs blue and have good flips.

I'll gladly discuss any card choices, both in my build and the future interpretations of others, in the Noble Fish thread.  However, I absolutely abhor writing tournament reports, so sadly one will not be produced.