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Author Topic: Dredge with Transformation into Fish  (Read 4874 times)
vaughnbros
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« on: June 10, 2012, 02:35:48 pm »

I played two tournaments now with a dredge deck that has a "transformative" side board.  I put it in quotes because in some match ups I've been using an incomplete transformation.  The idea is to turn game 1 into more of a grind in exchange for being able to transform into a fish style deck that is much less affected by dredge hate cards.  In theory its a similar idea as the dragon deck that transforms into tezz.

I've had pretty decent success piloting it even with some play errors, however I feel the build is far from perfected and I am out of ideas so I wanted to open it up for discussion.  I have gone 7-4 in match wins and losses with this strategy, placing 9th and getting top 4, at 20+ people tournaments.  In those 11 matches, my game 1 record was 10-1, and in game 2/3 I've gone 7-8.  So this idea seems to carry some merit in its results.

So heres the deck list I played the first tournament in which I placed 9th with a 3-2 record (losing to fish and shops):
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Mox Jet
4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Black Lotus
3 Dakmor Salvage
1 Ancestral Recall
4 City of Brass
3 Unmask
2 Petrified Field
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Riftstone Portal
3 Mental Misstep
2 Fatestitcher
4 Force of Will

SB:
4 Divining Witch
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Dark Confidant
3 Underground Sea

SB Plan:

Big Blue:
-4 Serum Powder
-4 Ichorid
-4 Bridge from Below
-3 Bazaar of Baghdad
+Everything in the board

Fish/Landstill:
-4 Serum Powder
-4 Force of Will
-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 Unmask
+Everything in the board

Shops:
-1 Serum Powder
-3 Mental Misstep
-4 Force of Will
-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 Unmask
+Everything in the board

I tried to adjustments as well as play test more to try and improve my match ups against fish and shops so I cut the maniac witch combo for extra mana sources and a green splash in the board, I also changed a few cards in the main deck

Heres the deck list I played in the second tournament, where I top 4ed with a match record of 4-2 (losing to fish and shops again):
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Black Lotus
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Mox Emerald
1 Ancestral Recall
3 City of Brass
3 Unmask
2 Petrified Field
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Riftstone Portal
3 Mental Misstep
1 Fatestitcher
1 Darkblast
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Trygon Predator
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou

SB Plan:

Big Blue:
-4 Serum Powder
-4 Ichorid
-4 Bridge from Below
-3 Bazaar of Baghdad
+Everything in the board

Fish/Landstill:
-4 Serum Powder
-4 Force of Will
-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 Unmask
+Everything in the board

Shops:
-4 Serum Powder
-3 Mental Misstep
-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 Unmask
-1 Darkblast
+Everything in the board


Although I did see other shops and fish decks in these tournaments that I beat, the point is that I lost to the same two decks in both tournaments mostly due to the transformation's weakness against strip and sphere effects which is why I have been leaving the dredge plan in the deck in these match ups.

I'm open to discussion in general on this deck.  The two biggest things I have questions about are sideboard itself, as in the lab witch combo is better or the bug fish is better or if there is some other collection of creatures that would be better suited for this, and if my sideboard plan is accurate.
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serracollector
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2012, 04:33:50 pm »

There was a tournament won I went to that had a transform SB into dark depths, something along the lines of:

4 vampire hexmage
2 dark depths
2 urborg
4 bobs
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2012, 06:26:15 pm »

There was a tournament won I went to that had a transform SB into dark depths, something along the lines of:

4 vampire hexmage
2 dark depths
2 urborg
4 bobs
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal


Yeh I remember seeing that if I remember correctly your main deck was relatively the same as a regular dredge deck.  Can you elaborate on how effective the transformation was? It seems like this transformation would have the same draw back as the ones I tried of a weakness towards spheres and strips.
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DaveKap
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2015, 09:54:02 am »

I've been testing Elliot Burk's Dark Depths Dredge: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15447&iddeck=114835

I cut FKZ for an Elesh Norn, kept the other 74. Bloodghast is omitted, as there are only 9 lands. No SBing for Storm/mirror. My standard SB plan against decks that kill in more than 3 turns is:

15 SB in
-4 Grave Troll
-4 Bridge from Below
-4 Serum Powder
-2 Dread Return
-1 Elesh Norn


I like it's G2/G3 against the field better than Cagebreaking options. I had trouble sticking LabMan in Lance's Dr Edge. The shops matchup is about the same, as Wasteland is stronger, but Cage and Crypt are weaker.

4   Bazaar of Baghdad
4   Petrified Field
1   Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4   Golgari Grave-Troll
4   Stinkweed Imp
4   Golgari Thug
4   Ichorid
4   Chancellor of the Annex
4   Narcomoeba
1   Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobyte
4   Serum Powder
4   Bridge from Below
4   Force of Will
4   Mindbreak Trap
4   Mental Misstep
2   Dread Return
4   Cabal Therapy

Sideboard   
4   Dark Depths
2   Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1   Black Lotus
1   Mana Crypt
2   Vampire Hexmage
4   Thespian's Stage
1   Riftstone Portal
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2015, 10:28:38 am »

Hey Dave the versions on my deck in this thread are pretty old.  Some discussion started and teetered out over here again, http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46708.30.  The addition of Urborgs and more mana sources capable of casting Lab Maniac make that problem less of an issue.  Also wastelands and force of wills have increased my disruption ability.  I have also been running Mayor of Avabruk as another counter to shops game plan as the only reasonable answers are their dismembers/metamorphs with me having Forces to prevent them.  Id definitely love to hear your thoughts on how you think my lists could be improved further though.

I personally haven't been a fan of the strictly Depths versions since its reliant on a typically turn-5 2-card combo kill, but I think in a field of less exile effects, like RiP, leyline and Tormod's,  it could be built into a pretty threatening force if you can improve on the list.  I think step 1 for me would be making the manabase work with Life from the Loam.  I definitely like Dakmors+bloodghast over Thug+Ichorid since dakmor is so much better G2/3.  I'm also not a huge of a fan of 4 Chancellors over some number of Chalice of the Void, again this is for G2/3 reasons where chalice at 1 can put you way ahead in a lot of blue match ups.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 10:39:14 am by vaughnbros » Logged
DaveKap
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2015, 03:00:57 pm »

Hey Dave the versions on my deck in this thread are pretty old.  Some discussion started and teetered out over here again, http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46708.30.  The addition of Urborgs and more mana sources capable of casting Lab Maniac make that problem less of an issue.  Also wastelands and force of wills have increased my disruption ability.  I have also been running Mayor of Avabruk as another counter to shops game plan as the only reasonable answers are their dismembers/metamorphs with me having Forces to prevent them.  Id definitely love to hear your thoughts on how you think my lists could be improved further though.

I personally haven't been a fan of the strictly Depths versions since its reliant on a typically turn-5 2-card combo kill, but I think in a field of less exile effects, like RiP, leyline and Tormod's,  it could be built into a pretty threatening force if you can improve on the list.  I think step 1 for me would be making the manabase work with Life from the Loam.  I definitely like Dakmors+bloodghast over Thug+Ichorid since dakmor is so much better G2/3.  I'm also not a huge of a fan of 4 Chancellors over some number of Chalice of the Void, again this is for G2/3 reasons where chalice at 1 can put you way ahead in a lot of blue match ups.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll try Salvage/Bloodghast over Ichorids.

Another version of Dredge I've only seen once was against Vinny Forino. This is a very loose version of what I remember. Anyone have experience with this type of build w/ multi-hate tools of Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb?

Shops Dredge

4 Bridge from Below
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder

4 Bloodghast
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobyte
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Powder Keg
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wasteland
4 Anti-Oath (Karakas / Meekstone / Witchbane Orb)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 09:57:16 am by DaveKap » Logged
vaughnbros
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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2015, 07:23:19 pm »

Another version of Dredge I've only seen once was against Vinny Forino. This is a very loose version of what I remember. Anyone have experience with this type of build w/ multi-hate tools of Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb?

I remember hearing about that and seeing a deck list posted at some point along the same line, but I can't seem to find anything now.  It certainly seems like an interesting idea.  I can't say I've ever actually tested it though so I can't say how it plays out.  Certainly a lot of different directions that you could go with it.  Strip effects seems potentially good to go with the chalice mana denial and then you have the option of playing things like Revoker out of the board since it can hit moxen and tormod's effects.  Lodestones could also be pretty back breaking.
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