Why I am not going to Gencon this year.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I Tweeted this thread at Pastimes, Gencon and Wizards earlier today and received this response:

@nkmoes Thanks. We take security seriously and will be posting info announcing our plans already in the works later next week.

Hopefully things will be happening soon.

[TheProfessor]

Thanks for the update!

I hope that they take several measures to prevent theft so that we can enjoy our GenCon experience instead of living in paranoia the entire event.

[Suicideking]

I go to Gencon every year and havent had a problem.  People are looking to steal shit every where, its not just gencon.  I always put the strap of my backpack around my leg while im playing and quickly pack everything up before chatting and it works well. 

It will also help if  everyone keeps an eye out and these people get caught.  If everyone is expecting theft it should be easier to prevent.

[TheWhiteDragon]

If you are contacting Pastimes, keep it simple:

1) Remind them how rampant the theft was last year - $80,000 is theft?

2) Tell them you are concerned about this and want greater security.

No need to go into more specifics than that besides maybe suggesting some ways to do it.  But if you write a long winded note you are less likely to get the kind of reply or response we want.  

I contacted them with a simple request for heightened security, and this was the response I got:

Want security cameras?  Fu(k you, pay me.  Want security guards?  Fu(k you, pay me.  Want a roped off area?  Fu(k you, pay me.
After the guy told me that if my deck got stolen, he'd nail my mother as compensation, I decided I will not be going to GenCon this year either.

Full warning, for violating Section III, Subsections 1, 2 and 4 of the TMD Rules and Regulations:

III.  Inflammatory Posting

Purpose:  Interpersonal attacks, incendiary comments, and other hostile or antagonistic posts make it very difficult for other users to enjoy their time on this site and make contributions.  Specific examples of posts which violate this rule include:

1.  Flaming.  (The staff, and not TMD users, has discretion to determine what constitutes a flame and what doesn't)

2.  Baiting.   (Posts intended to antagonize other users or instigate conflict.)

4.  Posts containing false or misleading statements tending to harm other users.

We're trying to work towards a productive solution that will change everyone's experience at GenCon, and we're lucky enough to have Pastimes respond to our concerns.  This post, an admitted fabrication, is offensive for myriad reasons, not least of which being that it seriously detracts from a collected effort over valid concerns.  One of the  members of the staff had over $1,000 in cards stolen, and Dave Williams (who is a member on this site) had over $20,000 stolen.  Posts that demean or actively hurt our efforts to resolve the security issue with Pastimes will be dealt with accordingly.

- Prospero

[Commandant]

If you are contacting Pastimes, keep it simple:

1) Remind them how rampant the theft was last year - $80,000 is theft?

2) Tell them you are concerned about this and want greater security.

No need to go into more specifics than that besides maybe suggesting some ways to do it.  But if you write a long winded note you are less likely to get the kind of reply or response we want. 

I contacted them with a simple request for heightened security, and this was the response I got:

Want security cameras?  Fu(k you, pay me.  Want security guards?  Fu(k you, pay me.  Want a roped off area?  Fu(k you, pay me.
After the guy told me that if my deck got stolen, he'd nail my mother as compensation, I decided I will not be going to GenCon this year either.

Seriously? Wow.

[Daenyth]

If you are contacting Pastimes, keep it simple:

1) Remind them how rampant the theft was last year - $80,000 is theft?

2) Tell them you are concerned about this and want greater security.

No need to go into more specifics than that besides maybe suggesting some ways to do it.  But if you write a long winded note you are less likely to get the kind of reply or response we want. 

I contacted them with a simple request for heightened security, and this was the response I got:

Want security cameras?  Fu(k you, pay me.  Want security guards?  Fu(k you, pay me.  Want a roped off area?  Fu(k you, pay me.
After the guy told me that if my deck got stolen, he'd nail my mother as compensation, I decided I will not be going to GenCon this year either.

As entertaining as this idea is, I find it somewhat unlikely. Got any proof of this? If so, please offer it so that others know to take you seriously and avoid attending events hosted by people hostile to the community.

[TheWhiteDragon]

HAHAHA, omg, no I'm playing guys.  Any business would have more tact than to write that, even if they had those thoughts.

The issue IS a serious problem, but I was totally just joking.  I won't be going to GenCon for several reasons, but the rampant theft is a serious deterrent.

[honestabe]

HAHAHA, omg, no I'm playing guys.  Any business would have more tact than to write that, even if they had those thoughts.

The issue IS a serious problem, but I was totally just joking.  I won't be going to GenCon for several reasons, but the rampant theft is a serious deterrent.

The sick part about the troll is that it was accidently good

[Pastimes]

Hello All,

I would like everyone to know the seriousness of theft at Gen Con, and other major events, is being addressed.  Some of it has already been put into place at larger events, such as Grand Prix, and some will be new for Gen Con.  Some we will discuss on open forums such as this, some we will keep to ourselves to see if it helps.

There is no question theft is a major issue.  It is a significant issue at every event, large and small - especially when we are dealing with items that can be liquidated in short order - most of which are unidentifiable - and which are worth a great deal of money.

As we get closer to Gen Con we will update this site - and others - with information for people about what we are doing about helping make your "stuff" safer.  We will also be offering information and suggestions about what you can personally do to help safeguard your items.  While we do want to help - and we are going to be doing much more to help - ultimately we cannot be responsible for your items, just as Gen Con cannot, nor Wizards.  There are actions we can take to make theft more difficult, and there is information we can share to help you safeguard your belongings - but the biggest suggestion is for people to figure out a plan before they walk in the door.  What can you do to make sure your bag and cards leave with you? 

There will be more space between tables and chairs this year - which we believe is the first great step.

Also, know this - if you come to Gen Con for Legacy and Vintage Championships, be prepared to deal with additional security measures.  We will NOT be disclosing information about this until Gen Con as we believe it will help in the process.

We do appreciate the comments here, and on other forums.  If you have anything you would like to share about your concerns, or suggestions, please email me directly at alan@pastimes.net

We do hope to see everyone there.  I hope that anyone who has had second thoughts about going to Gen Con reconsiders and buys their badge - it is going to be an amazing weekend with some great new twists and turns for everyone - including a great new addition - the Gen Con Championship!

Again, thank you for the feedback - keep it coming.  We will do our best to address your concerns as best we can - both online and off.

Sincerely,

Alan Hochman
President
Pastimes
www.pastimes.net

*please note that Pastimes Incorporated is a contractor for Wizards of the Coast and no comment made here is a statement for Wizards of the Coast.

[BC]

I am very glad to see a response from the tournament organizers.  I'm glad they are taking this seriously.  I feel slightly better about the prospects for Champs this year, and although I was going anyway, now I will go with some optimism. 

[LotusHead]

I actually wanted TMD'rs at GenCon with baseball bats. Vigilant, ruthless, and waithing to crack skulls.

but I am glad Pasttimes responded here.

[Prospero]

This thread is taken quite seriously on the part of the staff; we expect people who participate in this (important) thread to at least be honest in communicating their concerns.  Please understand that this issue will affect how every single one of us who goes to GenCon experiences GenCon.  The potential loss of thousands of dollars in cards has become an unfortunate reality for many members of the community and the potentiality for further loss is not treated lightly.  You shouldn't treat it lightly either.  Please, at the very least, show some modicum of respect towards the organizer, as they have the power to affect everyone who goes to GenCon for Vintage.

[Bakalias]

I wasn't at BOM this year, but the other years i never heard of things like these. There are several reasons for this:
1. Eternal magic players in the whole room only, and some staff/judges/dealers, few spectators.
2. The venue is like a "pit". You have the playing space, where no spectators are allowed (there would be no space anyway, it's croweded with tables, basically back to back. The spectators are looking down on the players, There is an elevated balustrade around the "pit".
3. Last years, there was one massive big security guy (maybe more i didn't see), watching the door, and very friendly at that.
4. Personal anecdote, not representative at all: people brought decks someone else forgot to the judges..
Maybe someone of the BOM crew can tell more? (hemgath on TMD)
I really hope you can get the situation right over there! Otherwise come to BOM. Everything is awesome there.

I was, and I can confirm that there was at least one security guard patrolling the room at all times. Two during the big legacy and vintage events during the weekend.
The organisation didn’t change much this year and there wasn’t any goods stolen that I’m aware of.
I must say that Pastimes adding space between tables may be a good idea but it could add people watching games also.
In the opposite, during the BOM, as the room was FULLY crowed with tables and chairs make it impossible for thieves to go around the tables except the ones at the end of each rows.
Plus, being able to see the tables from around and from the top, as PETER FLUGZEUG explained, prevented also the presence of spectators around the tables.

Maybe this configuration could be reuse by Pastimes?

Regarding people bring decks back to the judges; it happened again this year

[KrauserKrauser]

I am pleased that Pastimes responded and is taking the matter seriously.

I believe that simply adding spaces between the tables will not help if there are no efforts to limit or even eliminate the spectators flitering through the tables while the event is underway.

I do hope that efforts are going to be undertaken to remove spectators from the equation as that measure will go a long way in reducing the potential for theft during the actual event.

I hope we never have to hear another report of a deck being stolen during a sanctioned match as that is simply unacceptable and is indicative of a tournament setup that is seriously flawed.

[TheProfessor]

I agree that more space between the tables allows for more spectators and potential thieves to wait for their chance to strike during the event.  I would not mind more space between the tables if spectators are not allowed in the area of the tournament, but we will have to wait and see.

As a result of Pastimes previous post, I will be there ready to play, but if the security measures put in place during those events do not make feel comfortable enough to play, then I will unfortunately have to sit out.

[Smmenen]

I think the best, most simple solution is security cameras.   Having better and more should basically solve the problem. 

[Commandant]

I think the best, most simple solution is security cameras.   Having better and more should basically solve the problem.  

People keep mentioning this but I'm pretty sure security cameras really do not phase thieves in the least bit. Assuming it's true, Dave Williams mentioned there being security footage in his case and that it did jack shit.

[TheProfessor]

I think that security cameras would help, but not nearly as much as keeping spectators out of the tournament areas, as well as a wristband system to deter thefts.

[Prospero]

Cameras are great, but they're only one part of what should be a comprehensive plan.  Even then, cameras are expensive, and you're going to need to have someone on site who knows how to use them (and that's saying that you don't have anybody there who's watching the footage as it's being recorded). 

This doesn't mean that you even need to hire outside security, as there are very basic measures that can be taken which will really deter the kind of theft that we saw last year.  Having a multi-faceted approach that isn't reliant on any one component (but is instead complemented by the various parts of it) is the way to go, in my humble opinion.

If I was going to run security for Vintage Champs, I'd start with:

1.  Color/number coded wristbands and bag bands that would identify people who are playing in Vintage Champs.
2.  A cordoned off area (and we're not talking about a simple rope/stantion solution, but something akin to a physical barrier that's at least 54 inches tall) with only one access point in and out.
3.  An employee working the access point who will allow judges and players (with their appropriate wristbands) into the area, but (literally) no one else.  This should be checked against a master list of the players, or be done with a sign in/sign out sheet (in which the employee takes a physical identification card from someone and denotes their name and address).

This is a lot of work.  I know because I've done things like this before.  Still, the point in this is ensuring the security of the possessions of the players participating in Vintage Champs. 

Indianapolis makes a fair amount of money off GenCon, from hotel rooms, to restaurants, to other vendors, the city itself does well on that particular weekend.  Should it really be impossible to have a member of the Indianapolis police department in that specific hall?  Armed police officers are a pretty solid deterrent - additionally, it's in their best interests that we all keep making the trek out to GenCon every year.  I worked to keep my trip as cheap as possible last year, and I still ended up spending over $800, most of which was spent on hotel, restaurants and local retailers.  Even if they say no, asking doesn't hurt.  It's in Wizards, Pastimes and GenCon's interests to keep us happy.

[nataz]

As part of my job I do on site risk assessments and physical protection systems and security analysis. I'll tell you right now, cameras won't stop or really even detect decent thieves. At best they are post incident assessment tools. They can tell you how something went wrong, and if you do catch someone there it's a slim chance they will help with id. They won't get your cards back. The value and liquidity of vintage decks is insane.

Prosperos suggestions are pretty good. basically he is outlining strong access controls. Some sort of badge + ID, combined with a spectator exclusion zone would do wonders. You could do it on the cheap with sequenced paper wrist event bands + photo id with registration, and even ropes would be fine of you made a double fence with an exclusion zone that no one should be in.

[Grand Inquisitor]

cameras won't stop or really even detect decent thieves...strong access controls. Some sort of badge + ID, combined with a spectator exclusion zone would do wonders. You could do it on the cheap with sequenced paper wrist event bands + photo id with registration, and even ropes would be fine of you made a double fence with an exclusion zone that no one should be in.

Combine and invert.  Make the Vintage event exclusive, but sort of pay-per-view.  This is an opportunity to show off an exotic bird that really should be caged, have a high-def video screening in a lounge that allows fun carousing and gaming while keeping fans at arm length.  2c.

[Meddling Mike]

I'm glad to hear that steps are being taken to make Gencon a safer experience for those with lots of expensive cardboard. Should my financial situation allow me the free time/disposable income to get out to Gencon again in the future I would feel much better about attending knowing that this issue is being proactively addressed.

[The Wolf]

This wont solve everything, but get a wallet chain and attach your backpack to your body.  Its cheap and very effective.  I've been doing this for years and never had any problems.

[nedleeds]

This should be checked against a master list of the players, or be done with a sign in/sign out sheet (in which the employee takes a physical identification card from someone and denotes their name and address).

This is already a requirement for being at Gencon. Everyone needs a badge. So not a ton of extra work here.

[Prospero]

This should be checked against a master list of the players, or be done with a sign in/sign out sheet (in which the employee takes a physical identification card from someone and denotes their name and address).

This is already a requirement for being at Gencon. Everyone needs a badge. So not a ton of extra work here.

I'm not talking about entry to the hall, I'm talking about entry to the cordoned area where Vintage Champs is held.  I haven't heard of this done in the past, and it wasn't done last year.

[Suicideking]

I think the best, most simple solution is security cameras.   Having better and more should basically solve the problem. 

I've worked retail jobs in the past and camera footage doesn't prove anything.  Unless you catch the person with the stolen goods the camera footage isnt enough to convict anyone.  Even if you see someone grab a deck box off a table you cant prove what was in the box or that it wasn't theirs ect.

[Shax]

I think security should be based on what is at stake here.


If you count all the players in Vintage and Legacy Champs at Gencon.. thats easily a Million Dollars worth of Magic cards.

A million dollars constantly being shifted around on tables in the form of paper cards should deserve high merit for security.

[aforce808]

Well, I'm sorry to hear about all of the thefts last year, but I am going to be at Gencon anyway.  This will be my first time at a big event and I am very excited.  I moved to AK a couple of years ago, and there isn't much Vintage to be played here, so I'm going to make the trip out to Indianapolis with the goal of meeting new people and having a great time.  I don't know many people in the community personally, but if anyone would like to go out for some drinks in Indianapolis, the first round is on me! 

Doug

[The Atog Lord]

Dear Alan,

I appreciate your taking the time to respond to the concerns that have been raised in this thread. It is good to see that you acknowledge the rampant theft at last year's Gencon as a problem.

the biggest suggestion is for people to figure out a plan before they walk in the door

I have a great plan for keeping my Vintage and Legacy decks quite safe during Gencon this year, but that plan involves being in another state. For those people who are still opting to attend Gencon, might I please ask what such a plan would look like?

We will NOT be disclosing information about this until Gen Con

I'm sorry, but I can't give much weight to vague statements that security will be better, when there are no specifics about it. My research is in computer security, not physical security; but in security in general, what you are engaging in is a practice known as "security through obscurity." It is widely denounced as ineffective by security experts.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity

Security through obscurity has never achieved engineering acceptance as an approach to securing a system...The United States National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) specifically recommends against security through obscurity in more than one document.

Members of the Vintage Community in this thread have provided several concrete steps that could be taken to improve the situation at Gencon: measures such as only permitting participants and judges into the tournament area; setting up video cameras; and hiring more security guards. I suppose that having more space between players could be nice, but I would not place that measure on my short list of fixes to the serious problem being discussed here.

And I am left wondering about why you are not disclosing more information about your security measures.

Do you not disclose your security measures because you haven't figured out what you will do yet? That is fine. Then tell us that your plans are still coming together; I'm sure that many of us would be more than happy to offer suggestions to make the Championships safer this year than they were last year.

Do your security measures include steps such as setting up cameras and only allowing a restricted pool of people into the tournament area? You can safely make that known to the public. Even if the malefactors sign up for the tournaments to get into the area, the much-less-crowded tournament space will help mitigate theft. And the cameras will continue running whether we are told about them or not.

Or perhaps you plan to plant honey-pot backpacks for the crooks to steal, and you do not want them to know about this. I'm sure they've thought of this plan already. And frankly, should their knowing about this plan prevent them from being as bold in their thefts, I think that too is a success.

Whatever benefit you may believe yourself to be deriving from remaining silent about the security measures, you are actually incurring some cost. First, of course, there may be some people who hear a vague mention of security measures, and believe that nothing will actually be done. I am not among those people, but one can understand why they might feel that way. Whereas, being open about your planned security measures will allow your attendees to feel more secure in their decision to travel to Indianapolis this summer. But more than that, it will allow for a public examination of the security measures. It will allow us, who care very much about the safety of the Vintage Championships, to have weeks to provide you with valuable feedback about your security measures. Perhaps they could be improved, but without knowing the plans, we cannot help.

Thus, whatever your plan is, exposing it to the community will only help make matters more secure for your participants, and give them greater confidence. It will enable valuable feedback, and of course reassure anyone who might believe that your unwillingness to describe your security measures indicates their non-existence. Whereas, the benefits to be derived from withholding the security measures are minimal. Even if they do help things during the Vintage Championships this year, their secrecy would be gone the next day during the Legacy Championships, and certainly for next year's Vintage Championships.

Rich Shay

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I really like how there has been no response to this yet.

1"we want you to deal with this problem"
2"we addressed this problem"
1"Really, how so?"
2"Aaaaa...... *trail off*"