Not Another Teen Griselbrand Deck

[Blue Lotus]

Edit - Updated the list a bit:

NATGBD

4 Shallow Grave
4 Careful Study
4 Griselbrand
4 Entomb
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
4 Force of Will
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Thoughtseize
2 Mental Misstep
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
3 Swamp
4 Island

Changes:
-1 Merchant Scroll
-1 Mox Emerald
-1 Mox Ruby
-1 Mox Pearl
-1 Demonic Consultation
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Swamp

+1 Flooded Strand
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Ponder
+1 Imperial Seal
+1 Echoing Truth
+2 Mental Misstep

I cut the off color mox because they really don't advance your game plan, you color mana demands are too high. I cut consult because casting it was insane. I cut merchant scroll because its best use was to tutor for a bounce spell so I just axed the middle man and added an echoing truth. I cut a thoughtseize for a MM.

Because I have less mana sources, I added brainstorm and ponder. Because I added them, I increased the number of fetches. Imperial seal replaced Consult. That left an extra slot for a second Mental Misstep.

I may cut another land to add a third mental misstep, but without more cantrips, I don't want to go below 18 permanent mana sources.

I may also cut the rits all together. Though it is nice to be able to cast a Griselbrand out of your hand off a huge yawg will turn.

GB Reanimator:


4 Shallow Grave
4 Careful Study
4 Griselbrand
4 Entomb
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Force of Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Swamp
4 Island

Sample sideboard:

3 Mental Misstep
4 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle

What do you do?

You try to get griselbrand (entomb or careful study) in the graveyard and then cast shallow grave, preferably on your turn. Swing with that man, gain seven, draw plenty of cards.

You can then either:

Assemble an unbeatable counter wall and demolish opponent's hand with thoughtseize.

Or Tutor for time walk, cast time walk.

Then, in your discard phase dump all griselbrands into graveyard, and rinse and repeat next turn. This time, however, you tutor for yawgwin and replay time walk. Remember clean up is after "until end of turn" triggers resolve so your discarded GBs during a yawgwin turn will not be exiled.


Why play this over Griseloath?
Griseloath doesn't have a draw engine, so I find it sputters if it faces two counters and can't really win vs three. Also, you are a turn faster as oath requires you to pass the turn. Additionally, you don't need any permanents in play, and you can run chain of vapor, a great catchall. Finally, the mana base is more stable at 2 colors and 8 basics.

That being said, Griseloath has a much more diverse game plan and isn't nearly as easy to hate out. This deck is no more than a reanimator deck, albeit one with by far the best reanimation target, bargain.

Also, remember that shallow grave is an instant, so you can do things like eat attackers, chump Blightsteels, or cast in response to an Oath Trigger and legend rule them out (but you get to draw cards!)


This is by no means a finished product. One thing I'm playing with is cutting down the griselbrands to 3 or 2 and playing some cabal therapies. This way you can sac GB and re-shallow grave that very one. Snapcaster or noxious revival may also be an option, but the body does nothing for you and 2 life is actually very important when you have to pay seven at a time to draw any cards.

[bluemage55]

This deck is no more than a reanimator deck, albeit one with by far the best reanimation target, bargain.

The best reanimation target is Dragon.  How is this deck superior to that in any significant way?

[Blue Lotus]

Dragon is a 3 card combo (dragon + reanimator spell + instant/bazaar). Dragon is vulnerable to removal and stifle. Dragon requires Bazaar, which screws up your mana development. Dragon loses to wasteland. Dragon has to resolve a 2 cc sorcery, you have to resolve a 2 cc instant. You can tutor for shallow grave with mystical tutor. You are faster than dragon and win on turn one and two more reliably. Your fails (drawing a bunch of cards) are less back braking than dragons (losing all your permanents). You can side or mainboard into show and tell, which dragon cannot.

So bully to you dragon.

[Worldslayer]

This deck is no more than a reanimator deck, albeit one with by far the best reanimation target, bargain.

The best reanimation target is Dragon.  How is this deck superior to that in any significant way?

That's almost completely false. The quickest kill from a reanimation target is dragon, maybe, but it's also the one with the most dead or subpar cards and the most vulnerable target outside of maybe jin-gitaxias. Reanimating griselbrand doesn't require any other cards to most likely achieve a victory - no strike of genius / ambassador laquatus / nephalia drownyard / etc...  reanimating griselbrand is far less vulnerable to things like swords to plowshares, double dismember, bounce spells, and has zero vulnerability to things like nature's claim, all of which are common enough cards to see across a normal vintage tournament. Given that creatures are a real thing in vintage currently, and so are ways to remove them, playing the guy that still gives you an advantage if something happens to him is probably better than the faster one that annihilates your board if something happens to him.

All of that out of the way, now, a couple of thoughts:

1) No alternative gameplan? Most of the legacy counterparts to Reanimator are running the backup of Show and Tell should their plan A of abuse the graveyard zone fall through. Your deck has two ways to bounce any permanentbased grave-hate while even ichorid has something like four permanent removal spells. While the dragon argument is awful, I can't see why you would play the more traditional graveyard deck of any variety over dredge unless it was for strategic variance. This doesn't have to be Show and Tell. Elias' oath/reanimator hybrid would work here, as would show and tell - hell, even keyvault and/or tinker-bot is an option dredge doesn't really have. Without these, though, I don't see why would you play an "all-in" graveyard deck that isn't zombie tribal.

2) is the shallow grave "sneak attack" plan better than just a traditional reanimation spell here? Exhume comes to mind, as does reanimate since between forces, fetches, and thoughtseizes im having a hard time seeing you drawing 14 cards anyway except in the best circumstances.

3) Only 8 protection spells - 8 is a low, low number - it's on par with my ANT list, for example. Whether you're Shallow Graving or reanimating him, you need to connect to win, so it seems strange that in a list relying on a creature that's arguably the best ever at finding you ways to protect him, there's only 4 forces standing in the way. Misstep conveniently is great disruption and protection used at all points in the game against almost everyone that isn't workshop. Misdirection and its ilk are more only for blue decks but still viable candidates. I know more than most people how good discard is, but in this list I don't see griselbrand dominating the game like he does in legacy either by stonewalling them or just killing them. In a format that actually has the most free disruption in the game, is there a reason much of it is eschewed from the proposed list? MM at the very least concerns me, as it is incredibly potent against a lot of this deck as well as its own best answer.

[Shax]

You are faster than dragon and win on turn one and two more reliably.

I was on board with just about everything except that.

You cannot even win on turn 1 with this deck.

A typical dragon hand that is easy to think of off the top of my head is Zar, Lotus, Blue or Black Mox,2CMC Animate Dead, Dragon in Graveyard... discard draw until you find Oona and exile the opponents library.

So it seems like to me Dragon is the faster deck at winning the game. While you might be 'winning' if you have Griselbanned out there with 3 FoW and 3 blue spells and Mental MisstepChain of Vapor in your hand, you also have not caused your opponent to concede like Dragon does.

[Blue Lotus]

You are faster than dragon and win on turn one and two more reliably.

I was on board with just about everything except that.

You cannot even win on turn 1 with this deck.

A typical dragon hand that is easy to think of off the top of my head is Zar, Lotus, Blue or Black Mox,2CMC Animate Dead, Dragon in Graveyard... discard draw until you find Oona and exile the opponents library.

So it seems like to me Dragon is the faster deck at winning the game. While you might be 'winning' if you have Griselbanned out there with 3 FoW and 3 blue spells and Mental MisstepChain of Vapor in your hand, you also have not caused your opponent to concede like Dragon does.

Rit, entomb, shallow, I consider a win. You have drawn 21 cards, if you hit black lotus in those 21 you cast or tutor for time walk and actually win. And I have yet to lose, even in the wild world of vintage when I pass with 2 FOW t1. There is only so much one can cast t1. You would lose to double fow + lotus + vault + key + drawn mana source. Other than that? You out race tinker bot. You out race t1 oath or even hexmage + depths.

Not to be picky but the "typical" dragon hand you described is their nut hand. And it requires lotus, mox, dragon in hand bazaar and animate, 2 restricted cards. GB reanimate's nut hand is dark rit or lotus, entomb and shallow grave. That happens much more often then any t1 kill in dragon.

As for show and tell, it is a possibility, but I would put that in the board to dodge sideboard GY hate. No one is mainboarding leylines (as far as I can tell). Yes you have two answers to cage, but you have careful study and tutors to dig for them.

I would play this over dredge for the same reason. You can run things like wipe away and echoing truth, where as all of dredge's answers are hosed by mental misstep. Also, you can 'go long' in the face of leyline. You can still counter spells and thoughtseize even with permanent based hate out, and set up for when you find a bounce spell (careful study + GB in hand). Dredge can't do anything until they find an answer and a way to cast it.

Not saying lolz dredge is garbage now, but I do think this is not just worse than dredge. You have a diverse way to fight hate (show and tell to wipe away) and aren't entirely crippled until the hate is removed.

I would advocate shallow grave over exhume. Drawing 21 is a lot more than drawing 14. Especially since you can draw 14, then cast a top deck tutor and draw the tutored for card. The drawback is that you have to pay 2 every turn to cast a new shallow grave. But your playing a deck with rits so its easy to shallow grave + thoughtseize your second time around.

The protection numbers could be tweaked. I also think I need to cut some lands, you only need two. I'm playing 21 mana + 5 dark rits and lotus. On second look thats like 3 lands too many.

Thanks for your inputs!

Edit - also, I swapped a d.consult for a Mental Misstep. Needing three of four Griselbrands to actually get the W made consult no bueno.

[bluemage55]

Dragon is a 3 card combo (dragon + reanimator spell + instant/bazaar).

So is yours.  Bazaar doesn't just allow Dragon to go off, it's also the means to put Dragon in the grave.  Yours ends up being the same (Grisel + reanimator spell + entomb/careful study).

Dragon requires Bazaar, which screws up your mana development.

Bazaar gives you filtering/discarding for free, while you have to spend mana on careful study/entomb as well as resolve them.  The card selection Bazaar provides isn't exactly a liability anyway.

You can tutor for shallow grave with mystical tutor.

Dragon still finds cards much faster than you do with its draw/tutoring package (Bob, Bazaar, Intuition, etc.)

Your fails (drawing a bunch of cards) are less back braking than dragons (losing all your permanents).

Dragon draws out answers with Bob (as well as reanimated Bobs).  By contrast, the opponent of GB Reanimator merely has to answer Shallow Grave.  Because of this , Dragon will fail far less often.

You can side or mainboard into show and tell, which dragon cannot.

Dragon can sideboard into a Tez deck, and can also manage to look like a Tez deck.

[vaughnbros]

So your only actual way of winning the game is to shallow grave grislebrand 3 times?  That makes this seem like you need a different reanimation option or more reanimation spells.  You also don't really have seem to have nearly enough counter spells to create a "counter wall"

This deck seems extremely vulnerable to a litany of spells just to name a few: grafdigger's cage, surgical extraction, mental misstep, meddling mage, phyrexian revoker, pithing needle, ensnaring bridge, relic of progenitus, and many more.  Your deck only has 4 thoughtseize and 4 force of will to deal with all of their threats and protect from these cards.  SB you have a few more options but there isn't really much that it seems like you could even board out. 

Reanimator may be an option in Vintage, but I think it needs to be approached as more of a control deck with reanimator as a win con, not an all in deck like this is.

[Blue Lotus]

Dragon is a 3 card combo (dragon + reanimator spell + instant/bazaar).

So is yours.  Bazaar doesn't just allow Dragon to go off, it's also the means to put Dragon in the grave.  Yours ends up being the same (Grisel + reanimator spell + entomb/careful study).

Dragon requires Bazaar, which screws up your mana development.

Bazaar gives you filtering/discarding for free, while you have to spend mana on careful study/entomb as well as resolve them.  The card selection Bazaar provides isn't exactly a liability anyway.

You can tutor for shallow grave with mystical tutor.

Dragon still finds cards much faster than you do with its draw/tutoring package (Bob, Bazaar, Intuition, etc.)

Your fails (drawing a bunch of cards) are less back braking than dragons (losing all your permanents).

Dragon draws out answers with Bob (as well as reanimated Bobs).  By contrast, the opponent of GB Reanimator merely has to answer Shallow Grave.  Because of this (not to mention the fact that your blue count is precariously low for FoW), Dragon will fail far less often.

You can side or mainboard into show and tell, which dragon cannot.

Dragon can sideboard into a Tez deck, and can also manage to look like a Tez deck.

1. 8 enablers > 4. Also you can tutor for your enablers with mystical. Also entomb + shallow grave is 2 cards, last time I counted. Which was just now.

2. Bazaar is not free. It costs you a mana (a land drop). If you are trying to win t1 or 2, thats a lot of mana. Bazaar also has a huge weakness to wasteland, which is seeing lots of play now.

3. As you have to find less cards, this is highly contentious statement to make. Furthermore, I question bobs effectiveness in a deck that is trying to win on turn two or three. It will see you 2 more cards at most! Kind of like careful study does instantly. Also, intuition in a deck with bazaar? sounds legit.

4. Dragon loses, and I mean concedes, to a removal or bounce spell, which is more common and accessible than FOW.

5. Tezz transformational board takes 15 slots of your sideboard. Show and tell takes two or three.

The blue count could be increased, I'm dropping some lands to add more mental misstep.

[Blue Lotus]

So your only actual way of winning the game is to shallow grave grislebrand 3 times?  That makes this seem like you need a different reanimation option or more reanimation spells.  You also don't really have seem to have nearly enough counter spells to create a "counter wall"

This deck seems extremely vulnerable to a litany of spells just to name a few: grafdigger's cage, surgical extraction, mental misstep, meddling mage, phyrexian revoker, pithing needle, ensnaring bridge, relic of progenitus, and many more.  Your deck only has 4 thoughtseize and 4 force of will to deal with all of their threats and protect from these cards.  SB you have a few more options but there isn't really much that it seems like you could even board out.  

Reanimator may be an option in Vintage, but I think it needs to be approached as more of a control deck with reanimator as a win con, not an all in deck like this is.

1. That's what I thought at first. But in the end auxiliary reanimator spells were just not needed. Remember the counter wall only has to last one turn, and it's a turn they are constrained on mana. Next turn you go again and draw eight more cards and definitely hit time walk or yawgwin.

2. All of the spells you mentioned, except surgical extraction, can be answered by bounce spells, which this deck has two main. I don't see anyone maindecking surgical extraction, but the sideboard mental missteps (which I am now trying main) were there to deal with that. Again, all that hate can also be dodged with show and tell.

A board plan could simply be -2 entomb + 2 show and tell. I also take out all the rits post board. You can slow down a bit if they are boarding in a bunch of GY hate and diluting their deck.


A control deck is an interesting idea, but I feel like tezz or vault key or even storming out would be best for that. Try it out and let me know I'm intrigued!

[vaughnbros]

2. All of the spells you mentioned, except surgical extraction, can be answered by bounce spells, which this deck has two main. I don't see anyone maindecking surgical extraction, but the sideboard mental missteps (which I am now trying main) were there to deal with that. Again, all that hate can also be dodged with show and tell.

A board plan could simply be -2 entomb + 2 show and tell. I also take out all the rits post board. You can slow down a bit if they are boarding in a bunch of GY hate and diluting their deck.

Yes but thats the point you only have 2 md bounce spells meaning if I drop one of those you now have to search for a 2 of, a 4 of, and have a way to get griselbrand in the yard, this seems rather time consuming to assemble all of these and a single well timed counterspell puts you back at square 1 in such a situation.  2 cards that hate on your deck and you can pretty much just scoop. 

Also I feel like if show and tell is such a great compliment to your strategy shouldn't you be running them main deck?

And on a side note demonic consultation seems like a very very bad card choice considering it almost always mills like half your library which wont leave much for griselbrand to be drawing.

[Blue Lotus]

2. All of the spells you mentioned, except surgical extraction, can be answered by bounce spells, which this deck has two main. I don't see anyone maindecking surgical extraction, but the sideboard mental missteps (which I am now trying main) were there to deal with that. Again, all that hate can also be dodged with show and tell.

A board plan could simply be -2 entomb + 2 show and tell. I also take out all the rits post board. You can slow down a bit if they are boarding in a bunch of GY hate and diluting their deck.

Yes but thats the point you only have 2 md bounce spells meaning if I drop one of those you now have to search for a 2 of, a 4 of, and have a way to get griselbrand in the yard, this seems rather time consuming to assemble all of these and a single well timed counterspell puts you back at square 1 in such a situation.  2 cards that hate on your deck and you can pretty much just scoop. 

Also I feel like if show and tell is such a great compliment to your strategy shouldn't you be running them main deck?

And on a side note demonic consultation seems like a very very bad card choice considering it almost always mills like half your library which wont leave much for griselbrand to be drawing.

Yes consult is already our for more disruption. One thing I am relying on is the speed g1. I estimate I can reanimate GB faster than one piece of hate most of the time and definitely faster than two. Seizes help, as does drawing additional shallow graves, which works around relic, crypt, etc.

I'm running 3 MM maindeck now -1 consult, -1 swamp, -1 island, which helps a lot with the 1 drop hate. You can race the 2 drop hate (seize counts as racing for those, as you can land a seize before they can cast, more often then not. especially with things like meddling mage)

[bluemage55]

1. 8 enablers > 4. Also you can tutor for your enablers with mystical. Also entomb + shallow grave is 2 cards, last time I counted. Which was just now.

My mistake on entomb, but the point still stands with careful study, which is that a 3 card combo isn’t really that bad when one of the pieces does something else useful (careful study or bazaar).

2. Bazaar is not free. It costs you a mana (a land drop). If you are trying to win t1 or 2, thats a lot of mana. Bazaar also has a huge weakness to wasteland, which is seeing lots of play now.

3. As you have to find less cards, this is highly contentious statement to make. Furthermore, I question bobs effectiveness in a deck that is trying to win on turn two or three. It will see you 2 more cards at most! Kind of like careful study does instantly. Also, intuition in a deck with bazaar? sounds legit.

Both of these suffer from a fundamental misunderstanding of Dragon.  Unlike your deck, which has no choice but to attempt an immediate all-in, Dragon can sit back and throw threats for a few turns until one sticks (despite not being a true control deck).  By contrast, your version of reanimator pretty much gets one shot and loses if it fails.  So yes, your deck does need cards that are strong on turn 1 and 2, but that's not the case for Dragon.

4. Dragon loses, and I mean concedes, to a removal or bounce spell, which is more common and accessible than FOW.

FoW is not the only counterspell.  Your deck loses if Shallow Grave is answered by anything.

5. Tezz transformational board takes 15 slots of your sideboard. Show and tell takes two or three.

Considering that most matchups are answered by either Dragon or Tez, this has limited relevance.

The blue count could be increased, I'm dropping some lands to add more mental misstep.

Excellent idea.

[Blue Lotus]

1. 8 enablers > 4. Also you can tutor for your enablers with mystical. Also entomb + shallow grave is 2 cards, last time I counted. Which was just now.

My mistake on entomb, but the point still stands with careful study, which is that a 3 card combo isn’t really that bad when one of the pieces does something else useful (careful study or bazaar).

2. Bazaar is not free. It costs you a mana (a land drop). If you are trying to win t1 or 2, thats a lot of mana. Bazaar also has a huge weakness to wasteland, which is seeing lots of play now.

3. As you have to find less cards, this is highly contentious statement to make. Furthermore, I question bobs effectiveness in a deck that is trying to win on turn two or three. It will see you 2 more cards at most! Kind of like careful study does instantly. Also, intuition in a deck with bazaar? sounds legit.

Both of these suffer from a fundamental misunderstanding of Dragon.  Unlike your deck, which has no choice but to attempt an immediate all-in, Dragon can sit back and throw threats for a few turns until one sticks (despite not being a true control deck).  By contrast, your version of reanimator pretty much gets one shot and loses if it fails.  So yes, your deck does need cards that are strong on turn 1 and 2, but that's not the case for Dragon.

4. Dragon loses, and I mean concedes, to a removal or bounce spell, which is more common and accessible than FOW.

FoW is not the only counterspell.  Your deck loses if Shallow Grave is answered by anything.

5. Tezz transformational board takes 15 slots of your sideboard. Show and tell takes two or three.

Considering that most matchups are answered by either Dragon or Tez, this has limited relevance.

The blue count could be increased, I'm dropping some lands to add more mental misstep.

Excellent idea.

3 card combos are bad. The fact that dragon CANNOT go off without assembling 3 pieces ALONE makes it inferior.

My misunderstanding of dragon seems like your misunderstanding of deck building. What control decks want to is sit back, make land drops and gain card advantage. Bazaar is the worst card for a control deck in that it nukes both of these options.

Furthermore, if you think a deck can just sit back on bob for seven turns when it has legitimate landmines like 3-4x dragon and 4 fow and garbage like Mindshrieker you are out of your mind.

FOW is the only counterspell fast enough to stop t1 kill. Later in the game, you have thoughtseize to defend your combo as well. All the counters that answer shallow grave answer dragon. As does creature removal. As does bounce. As does enchant removal. These are real cards every deck, even dredge is playing bounce spells main now.

Also, saying that I lose if shallow grave is countered is absurd. I have 3-4 tutors (waffling on imperial seal) and careful study to draw another. If my t2 shallow grave is countered, I still have GB in the yard and 3 shallow + yawgwin to find to try again. Meanwhile, they're down cards because of FOW, can't tap out for fear of another shallow grave and just lose if they stumble on land drops or I draw thoughtseizes to eat their counters.

Dragon is a 3 card combo that is much more fragile. If you think bob makes up for that god bless.

BTW can we see this uber dragon list your hiding that seamlessly transitions into a control deck mid game and wins on t3 consistently? I expect to see intuitions in there as well.

Also

Considering that most matchups are answered by either Dragon or Tez, this has limited relevance.

Dredge? Oath? You just expect to race these decks? The transformational board is to dodge yard hate, not 'answer match ups'. When people with fast decks get wise and just roll your deck, you will understand that having a sideboard is a major boon.

[Tha Gunslinga]

You should run a Tendrils of Agony so you have an instant-win in the deck.  If you Shallow Grave a Griselbrand, you can draw most of your deck and kill with Rituals and Tendrils pretty easily.

[Metman]

You should run a Tendrils of Agony so you have an instant-win in the deck.  If you Shallow Grave a Griselbrand, you can draw most of your deck and kill with Rituals and Tendrils pretty easily.

I agree here too.  You are going to want to win the turn you get Griselbrand into play or you fall to the same issues that previous Oath lists have.  There is a discussion going on about the merits of Griselbrand in Oath compared to Rune-Scarred Demon and the GG variants that host Dragon's Breath and Emrakul and Blighsteel.  Oath, as I would assume any deck that relies on getting fatties into play be it Reanimator or Dragon, has evolved to win as soon as the combo has been assembled and not have to pass the turn.  If Griselbrand is the creature of choice make sure you can win the turn it comes into play.  Although I don't have much experience with this deck I would assume Tendrils of Agony is the best fit.  

I'm still not convinced that your blue count is high enough for Force of Will.  I think it necessary in this environment I just don't think you have it quite yet.  I like Mental Misstep, perhaps Hurkyl's Recall could find it's place in there and Jace, the Mind Sculptor is always an option.  How good would something like Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, or Intution be in a deck like this?  Have you tested any of those?  Frantic Search and Ideas Unbound may also be an option if you like Careful Study.  I'm just tossing out whatever comes to my head, hopefully it triggers something that gets the deck where it needs to be.  

[brianpk80]

The revelation here is that Griselbrand gets an enhanced boost from Shallow Grave; the fact that it allows an attack to precede the draw helps offset concerns of being low on life in addition to enabling as many as three nonlethal activations and eschewing the life-related conflict between Griselbrand and Reanimate.  That is a good find, though it doesn't necessarily preclude using Animate Dead, Exhume, or Necromancy as alternates.  If 4 is the ideal number of Shallow Graves, there should be a 2/2 split between that card and Goryo's Vengeance which does the same thing here.  

Unfortunately, the subject line is sensationalist and the post makes several unjustifiably bold claims that detract from an otherwise interesting discovery and divert attention to the sample list's flaws, oversights, and the apparent haste with which it was compiled.  The Dredge match-up looks terrible, the Chalice @ 1 problem (24 cards) approximates Elves, and the post-reanimation plan is to cast Time Walk and then replay it using Yawgmoth's Will, the very pinnacle of living the dream.  What exactly is a "Teen" Griselbrand deck if this isn't?  And why is this Reanimator deck masquerading as a Ritual-Based Combo?  Something is awry here, but the Shallow Grave->Griselbrand interaction may have some utility in a strong deck eventually; it needs more sophistication to push it to the next level.

[Blue Lotus]

I don't think I'm being sensationalist at all. This is a fast reanimator deck. The deck suffers from all the same problems fast decks have (inconsistent draws, problems recovering from a well timed force) and all the problems reanimator decks have (GY hate of which everyone has plenty due to dredge). I have been quite open with that.

However, your speed allows you to fight through things. Yes, the deck is weak to chalice at one. However, you are much stronger vs spheres than traditional ritual decks. Considering shop decks have 13 spheres to 4 chalices, this is something I am willing to live with. Also, you do have a sideboard, and more lands than traditional storm. Instead of Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild, you could use 4x Energy Flux and hopefully steamroll to victory. If you want added answers to chalice, daze could be swapped for mental misstep.

As for dredge, the plan is to race g1. I have found racing to be sufficient, especially since dredge plays spells now. If you disagree, you could use 4x leylines in the board. This deck does have the advantage of being able to actually cast Leylines quickly with rituals.

I wouldn't split Groyo's vengence. I may add it, going 4/1 or 4/2, but 2 mana is so much less than 3 I don't see the benefit. Yes it makes chalice and things like meddling mage less of a problem, but the return of paying an extra mana every time you draw it vs number of games where you will face chalice at two on the board doesn't justify it for me.

The deck name is clearly a joke. Every deck name is irrelevant, and this is just another one.

Tendrils does seem like a good idea. I've tried adding 1 nicol bolas or 1 sundering titan as added targets + attackers but they are too situational (Nicol Bolas is either win more or useless, Titan can do more harm than good). Tendrils seems better than either, especially because if you storm for a paltry 4, you get to draw another seven cards, and speed up your clock by a turn. Storm up to eight and you win outright.

The deck is getting tight, maybe I'll cut the 2x MM and add 1x Groyo Vengeance and 1x Tendrils. I'll also try -1 wipe away +1 Show and tell. They essentially do the same thing, dodge GY hate. That does bring the blue count down to 16. I may end up cutting the rits for more disruption. Lots of options.

the post-reanimation plan is to cast Time Walk and then replay it using Yawgmoth's Will, the very pinnacle of living the dream.

Drawing 21 cards is living the dream. Only that it actually happens. You draw 14, can use any top deck tutor to find time walk or lotus, and draw an additional seven. On your next turn you draw another eight cards. You have now seen over half your deck. Finding a yawgwin in addition to the time walk is not uncommon.

I'm still not convinced that your blue count is high enough for Force of Will.

Certainly open for debate. Personally, I think 16 is the bare minimum, I now have 18.

[TheWhiteDragon]

FYI - goryo's vengeance IS shallow grave for legendary critters.  It costs 1B.  I actually run 4 Shallow, 3 goryo, and 1 exhume with 1 show and tell in my version.  I only have 3 griselbrand and 3 careful study though, since exhume is really your money play, and S&T offsets the need to discard grisel.

The deck is great, but really there is a LOT of stuff that hurts it.  I've tested a fair amount, and when grisel hits play, it is a nice thing...getting him there is NOT easy.  I also run a single tendrils in the deck to make sure I win after I grisel.

I run 4 misstep, 1 echoing, 1 chain - but cage is STILL tough and fast.  A leyline is a big pain as well.  Spheres are not AS backbreaking as chalice at 1 (which shuts ALL ways to put grisel in the dirt (where S&T also helps with)), but casting shallow through multiple spheres is REALLY hard.  chaining off a yawg will to tendrils is REALLY hard.  You basically need to shallow grave 3 times to win vs spheres.

Also, I run a singleton "rite of consumption" to continue the chain when it fizzles (though burnt offering is also helpful as would be the new gain life/draw cards creature in M13).  The rite has the benefit of hitting for the extra 7 damage which speeds the kill.

It still needs a lot of tweaks, long story short.  It is very vulnerable to cheap grave hate and sphere effects.  It seems to have the weaknesses of dredge while also the weaknesses to MUD...and that's very rough.  Oh, and extirpate is basically GG.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Sorry, noob question:

FYI - goryo's vengeance IS shallow grave for legendary critters.  It costs 1B.  I actually run 4 Shallow, 3 goryo

If Goryo is cheaper, why run fewer of these and more Shallow Grave?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Sorry, noob question:

FYI - goryo's vengeance IS shallow grave for legendary critters.  It costs 1B.  I actually run 4 Shallow, 3 goryo

If Goryo is cheaper, why run fewer of these and more Shallow Grave?

Shallow grave = 1B...Goryo's Vegeance = 1B.  I chose to run 7 instant + haste effects and 1 permanent reanimator.  So...7 slots...can only run 4 of each...both cost the same.  I am no math whiz, but I think this means I HAVE to choose four of one and three of the other.  Let me see...4 + 3 = 7.  Yep, my calculator confirms it.

[Blue Lotus]

I don't know Kamigawa cards at all. Isn't there a   card that returns from GY to play, gives haste, and you have to sac EOT? That's why I was confused.

If Goryo is cheaper, why run fewer of these and more Shallow Grave?

They cost the same. Shallow grave is   as well. Corpse dance is shallow grave at with buyback.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yeah...you were thinking of corpse dance.  In a typical reanimator, corpse dance isn't "terrible", but considering you'll be drawing more animates with this guy anyway, and you really should win after 1 reanimation, 1B is better than 2B in this case.  I'd really like to get more cheap entomb effects, honestly.  careful study is bad card draw and only good if you have brand in hand.  It's actually better to run 2 grisels and more "entombs" if they exist.  Intuition is a possibility, but kind of pricey.  I do suppose intuitions WOULD allow me to run 4 shallow grave effects though and open more slots that way (while helping blue count for FoW).  The best would be entomb 5-8 though.

Considering you want to win on turn 1 though, 3 mana is rough.  Every turn you take past turn 1, your odds of winning decrease exponentially.  Almost every bear/spell/sphere/hate effects this deck.

[Blue Lotus]

Almost every bear/spell/sphere/hate effects this deck.

Well isn't that the case for every deck? Or else people wouldn't be playing these sphere effects and such.

I'd really like to get more cheap entomb effects, honestly.

Wouldn't we all!

[TheWhiteDragon]

Almost every bear/spell/sphere/hate effects this deck.

Well isn't that the case for every deck? Or else people wouldn't be playing these sphere effects and such.

I'd really like to get more cheap entomb effects, honestly.

Wouldn't we all!

1) No, this is not the same for every deck.  Storm is hurt by spheres, but not weakened as much by grave hate...it is a speed bump where cage/leyline are backbreaking for this deck.  Oath has vulnerability to cage, but doesn't care about grave hate and is very good against spheres as it is a one spell/two mana combo with a land, and also doesn't care about chalice @1 (easier to cast quickly then chalice @2).  This deck gets whacked by spheres AND chalice @ 1 AND grave hate.  It's goal is to win by turn 1, because basically it can't win if the game goes beyond turn 2 with any form of board/hand disruption.  I've been testing for days with poor results.  The only deck that it fairs well against is control - if you can seize/misstep/FOW your shallow grave through.  But then g 2/3 when they board in extirpate/tormods/cage/leyline...you're screwed.  This deck can't race a good dredge build either.  Many of those decks run their own main leylines/chalices - and with mana, chalice @ 1 is not impossible for them either.

Basically, this deck is more fragile than dark times, less consistent than dredge, and less easy to assemble a combo as oath.

2) Yeah...we can wish in one hand and shit in the other, but we all know which gets filled first :/

[brianpk80]

I wouldn't split Groyo's vengence. I may add it, going 4/1 or 4/2, but 2 mana is so much less than 3 I don't see the benefit. Yes it makes chalice and things like meddling mage less of a problem, but the return of paying an extra mana every time you draw it vs number of games where you will face chalice at two on the board doesn't justify it for me.

For reference:

The deck name is clearly a joke. Every deck name is irrelevant, and this is just another one.

I'm not concerned with what you title your work in progress, except to note that it contributed to an apparent attempt to both insult yet capitalize on the popularity of the Oath variant which actually does run a Storm kill and legitimately belongs in this genre.  You discovered an interesting interaction and extrapolated it into a rough shell which was offered as an alternative (presumably a better alternative) to Ritual Oath along with comparisons that were as unflattering ("sputters") as they were untrue ("no draw engine").  There are some reasonable critiques to be made of the Oath list, but anyone in their right mind would question the credibility of a designer who considers a Reanimation deck with Careful Studies to be "Ritual-Based Combo," and it doesn't help when the designer is oblivious to the existence of his premiere card's identical counterpart.  That said, Shallow Grave has always been a sleeper waiting to happen and the combo has potential.

Finding a yawgwin in addition to the time walk is not uncommon.

I understand that; the issue is whether filling the graveyard, resolving Shallow Grave, and tutoring/drawing into Time Walk and then Yawgmoth's Will to replay it is too mana-intensive a proposition after the list drops 3 Moxen.    

Almost every bear/spell/sphere/hate effects this deck.

Well isn't that the case for every deck? Or else people wouldn't be playing these sphere effects and such.

There's a broader palette of creatures that hit the Griselbrand decks.  Traditional Oath/Reanimate decks had no reason to worry about Phyrexian Revoker or Ethersworn Canonist.  

[Blue Lotus]

I'm not concerned with what you title your work in progress, except to note that it contributed to an apparent attempt to both insult yet capitalize on the popularity of the Oath variant which actually does run a Storm kill and legitimately belongs in this genre.  You discovered an interesting interaction and extrapolated it into a rough shell which was offered as an alternative (presumably a better alternative) to Ritual Oath along with comparisons that were as unflattering ("sputters") as they were untrue ("no draw engine").  There are some reasonable critiques to be made of the Oath list, but anyone in their right mind would question the credibility of a designer who considers a Reanimation deck with Careful Studies to be "Ritual-Based Combo," and it doesn't help when the designer is oblivious to the existence of his premiere card's identical counterpart.  That said, Shallow Grave has always been a sleeper waiting to happen and the combo has potential.

What draw engine does ritual Oath have? It makes up for this by massive threat density. This is not a type of deck I am comfortable playing. I noted these things and noted how Oath was better positioned to fight dedicated hate.

Ritual Oath is not infallible. I do not see why you are offended by me pointing out its weaknesses, especially when in the next sentence I point out a strength ritual Oath has that this deck does not.

This deck is offered as an alternative to, not something strictly better than ritual oath. You draw more cards and have better mana, but have less threats and ways to win the game. I never claimed this deck was better than ritual oath.

You are hung up on the name as a slight to Mr. Shay and ritual oath. The name was intended to be mocking myself for jumping on the Griselbrand bandwagon and posting yet another griselbrand deck, considering its already well documented impact on legacy.

I understand that; the issue is whether filling the graveyard, resolving Shallow Grave, and tutoring/drawing into Time Walk and then Yawgmoth's Will to replay it is too mana-intensive a proposition after the list drops 3 Moxen.  

Ideally its like this.  T1 enabler. T2 Ritual, Shallow grave, you now have Floating (assuming you drew a land in the top 21). Draw into/rit+tutor for time walk, cast it. T2.1 Draw eight more, tutoring/drawing for yawgwin. Cast yawgwin, proceed to your third turn in a row. If you didn't have a rit T2, you have to draw into lotus or mox jet + rit, which isn't unheard of.

Almost every bear/spell/sphere/hate effects this deck.

Well isn't that the case for every deck? Or else people wouldn't be playing these sphere effects and such.

There's a broader palette of creatures that hit the Griselbrand decks.  Traditional Oath/Reanimate decks had no reason to worry about Phyrexian Revoker or Ethersworn Canonist.  

But anyone can play this game for every deck. This deck isn't hit by qasali pridemage, for example, like dragon or oath. Or wasteland for that matter.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Ideally its like this.  T1 enabler. T2 Ritual, Shallow grave, you now have Floating (assuming you drew a land in the top 21). Draw into/rit+tutor for time walk, cast it. T2.1 Draw eight more, tutoring/drawing for yawgwin. Cast yawgwin, proceed to your third turn in a row. If you didn't have a rit T2, you have to draw into lotus or mox jet + rit, which isn't unheard of.

Okay...just so we're both understanding this, that doesn't quite work.  T1 enabler, T2 shallow grave - draw/tutor for timewalk, grisel gets RFG at EoT, T3 (timewalk turn) you needed to have discarded grisel #2 OR have another entomb AND you need a second shallow grave to do it all again.  This second grisel gets RFG as well, so now you are down to 2 grisels left and only 2 shallow graves left, and your opponent is at 6 life.  It's a bit harder than you're making it out to be, because shallow grave is not a haste-giving exhume that lets you keep him in play every turn.

This is a main reason why your deck NEEDS tendrils, because grisel won't go the distance by himself.  This is also why I run exhume/S&T as plan B.

[Blue Lotus]

Ideally its like this.  T1 enabler. T2 Ritual, Shallow grave, you now have Floating (assuming you drew a land in the top 21). Draw into/rit+tutor for time walk, cast it. T2.1 Draw eight more, tutoring/drawing for yawgwin. Cast yawgwin, proceed to your third turn in a row. If you didn't have a rit T2, you have to draw into lotus or mox jet + rit, which isn't unheard of.

Okay...just so we're both understanding this, that doesn't quite work.  T1 enabler, T2 shallow grave - draw/tutor for timewalk, grisel gets RFG at EoT, T3 (timewalk turn) you needed to have discarded grisel #2 OR have another entomb AND you need a second shallow grave to do it all again.  This second grisel gets RFG as well, so now you are down to 2 grisels left and only 2 shallow graves left, and your opponent is at 6 life.  It's a bit harder than you're making it out to be, because shallow grave is not a haste-giving exhume that lets you keep him in play every turn.

This is a main reason why your deck NEEDS tendrils, because grisel won't go the distance by himself.  This is also why I run exhume/S&T as plan B.

You draw 21 cards, and have a discard phase. If you don't hit time walk or extra grisels, you go the plan B of 2x FOW + some amount of thoughtseize. This was all stated before. I didn't say I hit the 2x time walk every time, but it's not exactly "living the dream" either.

The issues of having to cast shallow grave and finding grisel every turn are ones that I too thought would be apparent. But they just aren't. Of course, sometimes I 'fizzle' after drawing 21 cards and can't find a combination of mana/tutors or another shallow grave or a grisel in hand/entomb. But I'm comfortable with this fizzle percentage as it doesn't seem to be that common for me.

Tendrils is not necessary. The deck can win consistently without it. However, adding tendrils may be a major upgrade.

I am confused, though, as to why you think it would be hard to cast spells after a reanimation and yet think adding a storm card will alleviate this weakness.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Ideally its like this.  T1 enabler. T2 Ritual, Shallow grave, you now have Floating (assuming you drew a land in the top 21). Draw into/rit+tutor for time walk, cast it. T2.1 Draw eight more, tutoring/drawing for yawgwin. Cast yawgwin, proceed to your third turn in a row. If you didn't have a rit T2, you have to draw into lotus or mox jet + rit, which isn't unheard of.

Okay...just so we're both understanding this, that doesn't quite work.  T1 enabler, T2 shallow grave - draw/tutor for timewalk, grisel gets RFG at EoT, T3 (timewalk turn) you needed to have discarded grisel #2 OR have another entomb AND you need a second shallow grave to do it all again.  This second grisel gets RFG as well, so now you are down to 2 grisels left and only 2 shallow graves left, and your opponent is at 6 life.  It's a bit harder than you're making it out to be, because shallow grave is not a haste-giving exhume that lets you keep him in play every turn.

This is a main reason why your deck NEEDS tendrils, because grisel won't go the distance by himself.  This is also why I run exhume/S&T as plan B.

You draw 21 cards, and have a discard phase. If you don't hit time walk or extra grisels, you go the plan B of 2x FOW + some amount of thoughtseize. This was all stated before. I didn't say I hit the 2x time walk every time, but it's not exactly "living the dream" either.

The issues of having to cast shallow grave and finding grisel every turn are ones that I too thought would be apparent. But they just aren't. Of course, sometimes I 'fizzle' after drawing 21 cards and can't find a combination of mana/tutors or another shallow grave or a grisel in hand/entomb. But I'm comfortable with this fizzle percentage as it doesn't seem to be that common for me.

Tendrils is not necessary. The deck can win consistently without it. However, adding tendrils may be a major upgrade.

I am confused, though, as to why you think it would be hard to cast spells after a reanimation and yet think adding a storm card will alleviate this weakness.

I suggest tendrils, because in your 21 cards you will probably draw some amount of rituals, lotus, petal, mana crypt, etc and can then tendrils the first turn you animate grisel (swing for 7, tendrils for 14).  At the very least, you can shallow grave, swing for 7 and draw 21, tendrils for a small handful, and draw another 7 to help you get the time walk.  As I said in my deck, I also have rite of consumption as a cheap tendrils (2 mana, hit for 7, gain 7).  It might even be adequate to just run rites of consumption instead of tendrils, since you could probably more easily fling grisel for 2 mana and then get 7 more cards off another shallow grave.

Anyway, like I said - the speed of the deck wasn't an issue (I just thought you were implying grisel sticks around since you didn't mention the mana required for a 2nd SG/GV).  The resiliency of the deck is definitely suspect though.  A single sphere really ruins your day as well as chalice @1 or ANY grave hate.  There's no plan B, and plan A is like a rhino in a china shop.