growing vintage

[AmbivalentDuck]

The personal interaction is really the thing that gives mtg appeal to me as far as gaming goes, if that was lost in vintage, I’d probably just switch to legacy and feel shitty.Personally, I don’t see mtgo as a threat to vintage in the physical, I’d just hate to see it as the only place vintage happens. At that point, I’m out.

Online tourneys on TMD are faceless, but they're certainly not nameless.

[infant_no_1]

I'm trying to do this for the Dallas, TX area. Right now I'm concentrating my efforts on showing people how the games play out. A lot of talking it up during local events I play or judge in. I also have a tendency to just ask random players standing around if they are going to our next event.

It's a small community (10 players at the April event) but I have a feeling that the numbers will continue to grow, it'll just take us some time to get there.

-josh-

[Grand Inquisitor]

AmbivalentDuck
TheWhiteDragon

You guys are really arguing past each other.

Local/online is not an either/or.  They're complimentary goods that reinforce each other.

[AmbivalentDuck]

AmbivalentDuck
TheWhiteDragon

You guys are really arguing past each other.

Local/online is not an either/or.  They're complimentary goods that reinforce each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_rate_of_substitution

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

The personal interaction is really the thing that gives mtg appeal to me as far as gaming goes, if that was lost in vintage, I’d probably just switch to legacy and feel shitty.Personally, I don’t see mtgo as a threat to vintage in the physical, I’d just hate to see it as the only place vintage happens. At that point, I’m out.

Online tourneys on TMD are faceless, but they're certainly not nameless.

because of the in place physical community. Depending on how the digital expansion Vintage happens, namelessness is certainly a likely scenario.

[TheWhiteDragon]

AmbivalentDuck
TheWhiteDragon

You guys are really arguing past each other.

Local/online is not an either/or.  They're complimentary goods that reinforce each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_rate_of_substitution

by this, I'm guessing Duck is ready to just cash in his cards and live virtually over the internets forgoing face-to-face interaction and card slinging.

but either way, my point is that the existence of online Vintage won't help a format grow.  Face to face will help it grow...but to spread it to areas it is not, you need Vintage lovers to come spread it to non-popular areas.  I don't know if waiting for the people in those areas to grow it themselves will do any good...otherwise it already would have.  I'm thinking more of the northeast group hosting tourneys in non-northeast areas.  Might not be feasible, but if it doesn't happen, I see the northeast as being the ONLy home of Vintage.  It may be enough to just sustain the northeast and say the heck with the rest of the US, but I think a bunch of healthy scenes across the nation would benefit Vintage as a whole and bring more people to play in every scene.

[AmbivalentDuck]

AmbivalentDuck
TheWhiteDragon

You guys are really arguing past each other.

Local/online is not an either/or.  They're complimentary goods that reinforce each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_rate_of_substitution

by this, I'm guessing Duck is ready to just cash in his cards and live virtually over the internets forgoing face-to-face interaction and card slinging.

I have EDH and FNM for that.

my point is that the existence of online Vintage won't help a format grow

That's extremely unlikely. MTGO Vintage would likely double the player base.

[TheWhiteDragon]

AmbivalentDuck
TheWhiteDragon

You guys are really arguing past each other.

Local/online is not an either/or.  They're complimentary goods that reinforce each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_rate_of_substitution

by this, I'm guessing Duck is ready to just cash in his cards and live virtually over the internets forgoing face-to-face interaction and card slinging.

I have EDH and FNM for that.

my point is that the existence of online Vintage won't help a format grow

That's extremely unlikely. MTGO Vintage would likely double the player base.

I think the general idea is to grow Vintage, not just as a format, but as an interactive community.  If the only thing a person wants Vintage to become is "a fun game that can be played exclusively online", it's called World of Warcraft.

If people actually want to grow the card-wielding Vintage crowd, then online won't do that.  It might double the amount of people that sit behind a computer, but I don't see much value in that.  I don't see people that invest in MTGO and play online to be likely to buy real cards and travel to play, when such a more convenient option already has their cash.  I think most of us want people to get real cards (or even proxy) and interact face to face while playing vintage.

[metalhead666]

It's a small community (10 players at the April event) but I have a feeling that the numbers will continue to grow, it'll just take us some time to get there.

-josh-

This is exactly how the Blue Bell, Pa (Philly area) vintage grew, our first tournament had 9 players and grew from there. (and yes it does take some time, probably more for you in the southern part of the country because you arent so close to an already active are as Philly was to NY and NE many years ago).

[TheShop]

I think I may have a venue and maybe 8 players to try this $5 entry unlimited proxy thing out.  If so, I will have to be the instigator and attend FNMs...I don't play standard, draft, or sealed...so that will be me chilling and talking to people while playing side EDH games.  I will give this a shot to revitalize vintage in Jackson.  Time is an issue for me due to job, 1 year old, etc.  So we will see where this rabbit hole leads.

As to online magic- my collection only partially survived my funding 2 college degrees, the CPA exam, my honeymoon, a job loss for my wife, and a very medically difficult pregnancy.  I have been rebuilding constantly for a decade and will not be starting over because wizards arbitrarily decided the reserved list doesn't apply to cards that aren't real.  Are you really willing to drop 200 tix on force of wills while you are staring at a playset in real life?  I'm not. They haven't even released it all yet...listen to the classic podcasts online.  I listened to them as due diligence considering getting into online play...power isn't released.  It wasnt in any masters edition.  The format is similar to old type 1.5.  There is no guarantee they reprint anything already released (ex- 200 tix fow).  No guarantees on how or when they do release it.  This format will be cost prohibitive online as well.

[Grand Inquisitor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_rate_of_substitution

Maybe you're trying to be cute, but if you really understood economics (I'm an econ/math) you'd never post that.

The whole point is that there are rather complex preference curves that are reinforced by behavioral markets that need to be triggered in both queues.

[AmbivalentDuck]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_rate_of_substitution

Maybe you're trying to be cute, but if you really understood economics (I'm an econ/math) you'd never post that.

The whole point is that there are rather complex preference curves that are reinforced by behavioral markets that need to be triggered in both queues.

I don't claim to be terribly informed regarding econ.  My understanding is that this notion describes an oversimplified trade-off between attending online and physical tourneys since they compete for our time.

[TheWhiteDragon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_rate_of_substitution

Maybe you're trying to be cute, but if you really understood economics (I'm an econ/math) you'd never post that.

The whole point is that there are rather complex preference curves that are reinforced by behavioral markets that need to be triggered in both queues.

I don't claim to be terribly informed regarding econ.  My understanding is that this notion describes an oversimplified trade-off between attending online and physical tourneys since they compete for our time.

And again, I don't think most of us want to make that trade.  We actually enjoy face-to-face interactions while playing the format we love....we just want more people to do the same.

[nedleeds]

I think mining the Legacy community for people irritated with the U instant / Delver fest isn't a terrible place to start. Most of these people have the land bases and other staples, so playing 5 - 10 proxy is fine for them. Make it easy and use Mirage diamonds ... etc.

[LotusHead]

We had our 2nd tourney in NorCal (Vacaville Vintage for Cash!). It helped that Steven Menendian moved to the area (45 minutes away), and we arranged to import him, but he thought it was a Sunday tourney so could actually make it.

We DID however get 18 people to play (up from 8 before) and we all had a blast.

I dunno exactly what worked to get people into the store (my efforts on a local level getting people to learn Vintage, advertizing on Facebook on our local Magic group, TMD stuffs, or really, just the lure of beating Steven Menendian into the ground.)

I am pretty sure that part of it is the fact that we are the only scene in NorCal and people DO really want to play with their Tinkers and Proxy Power cards.

Whatever we did, it paid off, as we got our 5 Rounds of Swiss and cut to Top 8. (report is in the appropriate forum).

If you build it, they will come.

[TheWhiteDragon]

We had our 2nd tourney in NorCal (Vacaville Vintage for Cash!). It helped that Steven Menendian moved to the area (45 minutes away), and we arranged to import him, but he thought it was a Sunday tourney so could actually make it.

We DID however get 18 people to play (up from 8 before) and we all had a blast.

I dunno exactly what worked to get people into the store (my efforts on a local level getting people to learn Vintage, advertizing on Facebook on our local Magic group, TMD stuffs, or really, just the lure of beating Steven Menendian into the ground.)

I am pretty sure that part of it is the fact that we are the only scene in NorCal and people DO really want to play with their Tinkers and Proxy Power cards.

Whatever we did, it paid off, as we got our 5 Rounds of Swiss and cut to Top 8. (report is in the appropriate forum).

If you build it, they will come.

Good work.  Building tourney scenes where there is none is great! 

[H]

I am moving from New York to Lafayette, Louisiana next week.  Once settled in I will be working on creating a Vintage scene in the area.  I hope to be able to arrange something between Jackson, Mississippi, Houston, Texas, and where I am at.

If anyone is interested, or wants to help, just drop me a line.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Regarding time commitment:

Yes, we're all getting older, have to work more, kids etc. What does this mean? It means you can push your own breed to play vintage and take over your legacy one day. In the meantime, you won't be attending tournaments that often, but you'll soon be retired (time moves fast, mind you) and have plenty of time and money. I think people should have a longer term in mind than just a few years. Decades, centuries to come!
so: hold on to your cards as if they were your eyes. This will drive prices even more, but whatever. hoard them like a greedy dragon.

[Cody.TopDeckInsurrection]

We all know the future of Vintage is online due to the declining number of enthusiasts, the growing relevance of taking time off, and the increasing number of time commitments (pets/children/spouses) said enthusiasts have.

Someone needs to organize and guarantee an online P9 tourney, complete with judges.

If the future of vintage is online that's when I stop playing. I go out to events to get away from the real worlds (my wife, my house, my 2 jobs, my pets). Going out to vintage events is great to hang out with other guys that enjoy the game. As we all age and retire, the younger crowds will take over, it's a big circle if u ask me. I consider myself an enthusiast and I started out from the bottom of vintage just getting into it bc I knew guys like Shawn Anthony, Allen Fulmer, and Dave Reitnauer. So that being said as the older enthusiasts fade, new younger blood players will take over that roll.

As far as th initial topic goes, I think that's a cool idea to bring vintage to places it's less popular, but that doesn't happen over night. A card store in this random location would have to open. Possible the owner is a long time vintage lover and gets the locals involved in the format and holds small events.

I hope this makes sense and is helpful...If not, sorry!

Not only is playing vintage in person awesome and seeing everyone great, but the best part about magic in general is getting together with people and watching crazy draws happen or stupid plays that everyone laughs about and talks about for ever. That just doesn't happen online.

[Cody.TopDeckInsurrection]

Also, people need to understand how much fun this format is and that its not actually as expensive as it seems. You can build a competitive list for 200$ maybe less and play it for ever (EDH MIGHT be the only other format like that). Plus it is hands down the most fun format and most inviting. If people could understand all of this and just try it out it could grow in no time.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Regarding time commitment:

Yes, we're all getting older, have to work more, kids etc. What does this mean? It means you can push your own breed to play vintage and take over your legacy one day. In the meantime, you won't be attending tournaments that often, but you'll soon be retired (time moves fast, mind you) and have plenty of time and money. I think people should have a longer term in mind than just a few years. Decades, centuries to come!
so: hold on to your cards as if they were your eyes. This will drive prices even more, but whatever. hoard them like a greedy dragon.

Said kids are way expensive...thus why many people sell.  Adult life is retarded expensive.  Hard to justify a few binders of cardboard vs kid's college tuition or crap for the house that the wife wants or the new car you need because your civic doesn't fit you + wife + 3 very well.

[MaximumCDawg]

Regarding time commitment:

Yes, we're all getting older, have to work more, kids etc. What does this mean? It means you can push your own breed to play vintage and take over your legacy one day. In the meantime, you won't be attending tournaments that often, but you'll soon be retired (time moves fast, mind you) and have plenty of time and money. I think people should have a longer term in mind than just a few years. Decades, centuries to come!
so: hold on to your cards as if they were your eyes. This will drive prices even more, but whatever. hoard them like a greedy dragon.

Said kids are way expensive...thus why many people sell.  Adult life is retarded expensive.  Hard to justify a few binders of cardboard vs kid's college tuition or crap for the house that the wife wants or the new car you need because your civic doesn't fit you + wife + 3 very well.

With a budget of even $50.00 (sometimes you splurge and go up to $100) a month, and patience, you can get into the format in a few months and slowly grow.  I have a bit of an advantage because I had a stock of 4,000 or so cards from Revised-Urza's from the first time I played when I got back into Magic two years ago.  Even so, I had very few of the powerful staples, and none of the Power Nine.  And I have one kid, with a second on the way, so I can't dump thousands into cards.

So initially, during Alara, I went online and bought as many useful nickel cards as I could find to flesh out my collection on cheap utility cards I missed.  Started in about 2010.  Grabbed alot of cards that seemed like they had potential for creative decks but had no home.  For example, any "free" cards that had been published, I picked up.  (All of the Shoals, Mercadian Masques free cards, etc).  By doing this I ended up with a good stock of Legacy and Vintage staples, like Pridemage, by accident.  From there, I started preordering the obvious Vintage playables from new sets as long as they were $5.00 or under.  I had a few christmas presents from relatives that have given me Power, but for the most part I grew my collection by just patiently buying cheap cards in bulk or expensive cards late Sunday night on eBay, when the auctions seem the slowest.  It's taken 2 years, but I can now run most archetypes in Legacy and Vintage, despite my limited budget.

Now, this might be less possible, since between 2010 and now card prices across all eternal formats appear to have doubled or more... but patience and time can certainly make up for money in the bank.

[Lurker101]

What about a tournament similar to Worlds that alternates between formats? Maybe 1 round Standard, 1 Round Legacy, and 1 round Vintage (or however you would want to do it). This could lure in players who normally only play Standard/Legacy and give them a taste of Vintage. I think with some cool prize support a tournament like this could really work. I think proxieless/budget decks should be encouraged as well. An unpowered budget friendly meta is better than no meta at all.

[mikekilljoy]

What about a tournament similar to Worlds that alternates between formats? Maybe 1 round Standard, 1 Round Legacy, and 1 round Vintage (or however you would want to do it). This could lure in players who normally only play Standard/Legacy and give them a taste of Vintage. I think with some cool prize support a tournament like this could really work. I think proxieless/budget decks should be encouraged as well. An unpowered budget friendly meta is better than no meta at all.

Absolutely not. Plenty of Vintage players do not play any other format and I for one would never play in the event.

[A.-1.]

The idea is certainly fascinating. It's very reminiscent of a H.O.R.S.E. tournament in poker terms, if you are familiar with that. Unfortunately though, you alienate players, like Mike and myself, whom only play Vintage. For every non-Vintage player you would draw in, you'd probably lose just as many Vintage-only players.

[Lurker101]

Well, the idea would be to get enough people into vintage to eventually have actual straight-up vintage tournaments. I do see how it could be alienating to vintage only players but if there are enough vintage only players around that it would mess with attendance or the local vintage scene, then there wouldn't be a need for that type of tournament anyway right? Ideally this kind of event would be held in an area with very few vintage players. Honestly, I'm not really that into non-vintage formats either.

[stu55]

I think that there is a need for this post means there are bigger issues in growing vintage then just tournament scene. I think a lot has to do with obviously barrier to entry and what the metagame looks like. How fun is it really to play against Workshop or Dredge decks? People like to think they can interact with their opponents at times and those decks really don't. Even in Legacy, the Show and Tell decks try not to intereact at all but they have counters and permission to sculpt a game state to where they can resolve their win card.

 I know I don't post ever, but I do love playing vintage when I get the chance. However, there are very few ppl in my area that play vintage or even have a desire to. What we do have is a ton of magic players. I have said for awhile that Vintage and Magic are 2 completely different animals. The way the games play out, the level of thinking that is involved, how fast things can get out of hand some times all lead to vintage being vastly different than magic the gathering.

[A.-1.]

I have said for awhile that Vintage and Magic are 2 completely different animals. The way the games play out, the level of thinking that is involved, how fast things can get out of hand some times all lead to vintage being vastly different than magic the gathering.

I completely agree with this statement. To use another poker analogy because I believe it is so apt, Vintage in Magic is the No Limit Texas Hold 'Em of poker. If you're accustomed to playing other formats, Vintage/No Limit can be a huge shock at first. They both can be very swingy, some outsiders believe luck is a huge factor, some outsiders believe you need a lot of money just to get started, etc. As a Vintage player in an area with tons of non-Vintage players, you need to dispel these myths. Show them that games versus Shops and Dredge can be highly interactive and fun. Show them that every game doesn't end on turn two. Show them that, with proxies, Vintage can the be the same cost or even cheaper than other formats.

Whatever strategy you employ, I wish you success in growing a Vintage scene in your area.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Mike Smith(the guy who had a big hand in starting the vintage scene in bluebell) actually used to run tournaments called the Magic Olympics. It was 3 rounds of vintage, 3 rounds of standard, and 3 rounds of extended. Cut to top 8, and Rochester draft. I was strictly a vintage player with a little extended at the time and I played in the event even though I didn't play 2 of the 3 formats. So it can definitely draw a crowd but it's very circumstantial. It was also a shit-ton of fun.

[LotusHead]

We are getting ready for our 3rd Vintage tourney, and I started a facebook group called NorCal Vintage Scene to spread the word.

Also, having the threat of Stephen Menenendian showing up works pretty well.

Also, having the shotcaller of our tourneys get 2nd at Vintage Champs at Gencon boosts things a bit.

8, then 18, so by my calculations, um... 38.5 people! We rock!