Griffin Chain Combo

[MaximumCDawg]

I've been working on a deck based on Misthollow Griffin +  Food Chain since the card was spoiled, and I've finally got a list that goldfishes really solidly.  I havn't been able to run it through the gauntlet of Vintage top performers, but I feel like it's a place to start discussion.

The core of the deck is the fact that Misthollow Griffin + Food Chain = infinite mana to cast creatures.  My proposition is that, in the right deck, this combo is at least as good as Grim Monolith + Power Artifact is.  Powered Monolith gives you colorless mana only, but lets you cast whatever you want.  Griffin Chain gives you infinite colored mana to cast creatures.  I think this is far superior, mostly because Grislebrand (draw cards) and Emrakul (win) exist.  Plus, you have an unrestricted tutor (Fierce Empath) that itself can be cast off the combo.  Finally, even when you're not comboing off, Griffin Chain gives you infinite chump blockers and is basically unkillable.

Finally, outside of the combo, Griffin and Food Chain both have utility.  Griffin's is obvious; you can pitch it to Force or Misdirection without being down a card.  An evasive 3/3 is sometimes plenty fine to get there if you're stalled out in the late game.

So, here's the core of the deck and how I built it out.

4x Food Chain
4x Misthollow Griffin

These are the combo pieces.  I went with four of each because I want to naturally draw them often; they synergize with other cards in the deck.  Also, running 4-ofs makes Intuition into Demonic Tutor, and lets me run only two colors.

3x Fierce Empath

When you assemble Griffin Chain, Empath essentially wins the game on the spot by fetching Emrakul and CASTING him for an extra turn.  Even without infinite mana, Empath is capable of some truly nasty interactions with food chain...

1x Aethersnipe
1x Grislebrand

Both of these guys are Fierce Empath targets.  Aethersnipe functions as removal for anything in your way.  In addition, if you have 8 life Food Chain + Fierce Empath + any way to generate 1UU, such as by tapping a Noble Hierarch and then Chanining it, you probably win.  You play Empath, fetching Aethersnipe.  You evoke Aethersnipe, bouncing Empath, and saccing Aethersnipe for seven green mana before letting the Evoke trigger resolve.  You then re-play Empath, fetching Grislebrand, sac Empath for four black, giving you enough mana to cast Grislebrand.  You then draw 7 once, maybe twice, and lord help you if you havn't drawn enough gas in what you pulled to fetch or cast Emrakul.

I also find in testing that it's not unusual at all to be able to simply cast Grislebrand.  15 mana for Emrakul is rough even when Chain is going, but Grislebrand only requires Wall of Roots + Chain + 4 mana.  (Get G from wall, sac for BBB, tap 4 more).

4x Noble Heirarch
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Wall of Roots

This is where this deck sags, in my opinion.  To make Food Chain work, you need lots of mana dorks.  Many of these dorks are not super great by themselves; they don't do anything. I find I can't operate with much less than this number of them.

1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
2x Ancient Tomb

My critical combo cards all have 2 colorless in the casting cost, so these help.

1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
2x Intuition

A small tutor and card selection suite.

4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
2x Spell Pierce
2x Flusterstorm

You're aiming to go for the win on turn 3 or 4 usually, so you need early game protection.

2x Scavenging Ooze ?

I'm on the fence about these.  They give you something to do when you're stalled or the combo was disrupted, and with your deck's ability to get creatures into the yard and generate mana, he should usually be very large.  Also, he gives you a way to get Griffins out of the yard and back into the exile zone.  (The mental image of a the Ooze eating the Griffin's corpse, and the Griffin springing fully healed from the Ooze's anus is certainly fun too).  He's a good mana sink if you have the combo and nothing to cast with it, since you can keep saccing the Griffin for its own re-cast cost and then grow Ooze for G a pop (not using the Chain mana).  Thing is, you don't have a good way to fetch them... I dunno.  

So, thats the core of the deck.  I'm still tinkering with the mana base, but right now it looks like this:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
5 Forest
5 Island

This build is also unpowered, but that's because I have a Null Rod sideboard.  It would be maindeck in a different meta.  My current sideboard is:
3x Nature's Claim
2x Steel Sabotage
2x Sower of Temptation
4x Null Rod
4x Tormod's Crypt (needs moar dredge hate)

Run this list, and you'll find it goldfishes more smoothly than you expect.  I was regularly going off turn 3 or 4 with protection.  It's a blast to play, too!

[vaughnbros]

I was tried building a list featuring this combo as well when Misthollow first came out.  Although it goldfished fine it had major issues with the fact that both combo pieces are high mana and not very effective without each other cards.  As a result I found I would be like a full turn behind my opponent.  Here's the final deck list I had before I gave up on it:

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
5 Island
1 Flooded Strand
4 Misthollow Griffin
3 Food Chain
3 Mulldrifter
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Channel
2 Manipulate Fate
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Trygon Predator
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Mystic Remora
1 Ponder
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Misdirection
1 Commandeer

I havn't really played it in a while so I don't really know a whole lot on my thought process on some of the cards.  Looking back on it the list seems pretty far from optimal, but two of the key cards I found useful in such a list were Trygon Predator, since a single sphere effect stops food chain from working effectively, and Mulldrifter, who with a food chain out acts like gushbond in this list.  

Your list seems much more streamlined, but I'd question the effectiveness of assembling the combo when you can't drop Emrakul for the win Griselbrand is nice, but he requires having a decent life total when you drop him and passing the turn at least once or twice.  Also I count 30 mana sources that seems like a lot too me.

[MaximumCDawg]

It's all still a work in progress, thats true.  But, as you say, I think the one I'm working on is much more streamlined.  I originally was doing something like you were doing, trying to port the Legacy version with Mulldrifters and Manipulate Fate.  The problem I had was that everything in the deck that did not help the combo was causing it to trip over itself.  I even tried a list running 4x Spoils of the Vault, the concept being that you Spoils for Food Chain and probably exile a Griffin (if you survive) to get the whole combo.  It just wasn't working.

Things got tremendously better when I just decided the core would be Griffin, Chain, and Empath, and then build cards that work with these. 

I think Claim, Sabotage, and Spell Pierce are better answers for Spheres.  Trygon is too expensive.  If they double-sphere you on the play, you can still Claim out of it using your first turn mana dork, for example.

You know what card actually is god almighty against this deck?  Pridemages or Pithing Needle naming Food Chain.  That's a friggin' bear to bear in playtesting.

[vaughnbros]

I definitely think you are overlooking how much better mulldrifter is than fierce empath.  Empath without a foodchain is nearly useless, he's only a 1/1 and you only have 2 tutor targets in your list 1 of which is just a bounce spell and the other is uncastable without foodchain.  Mulldrifter is worst case a divination that gets around thorn, Thalia and flusterstorm which really isn't all that bad.  Then if you have extra mana you have the option to slam it down as a 2/2 flier which can provide a very solid man plan along side your griffins.

Double sphere is the reason to play trygon in this list not the reason not to.  Trygon can destroy multiple spheres, and pithing needles which you said you had an issue with.  You should have the mana accel to get past the spheres at least temporarily.  Trygon also pitches to force and your food chain when you don't need it,  which isn't always relevant, but it is a bonus over claim.  

I don't remember having a problem with Qasalis maybe because my version was less all in on comboing compared to yours.  A single manipulate fate and hard cast mulldrifters would create a ton of card advantage that would let me dominate slower decks like fish.  Mine also had an alt combo of channel emrakul which would ignore the whole food chain issue.

I think if I was to delve into this list again I would cut the jaces, remoras, and change the counter package in my list.  Or in your version's case I would cut some of the mana sources, the walls, and add an emrakul and a more reliable way of finding your combo pieces.

[madmanmike25]

I wonder if adding  a copy of Birthing Pod would help.  Empath would be able to get your Griffin if you Pod him out.  Noble/Bird -> Wall  -> Empath is going to be slow, but still might get you on track.  Just a thought.

[MaximumCDawg]

I definitely think you are overlooking how much better mulldrifter is than fierce empath.  Empath without a foodchain is nearly useless, he's only a 1/1 and you only have 2 tutor targets in your list 1 of which is just a bounce spell and the other is uncastable without foodchain.

I really think the two cards do different things.  Mulldrifter draws you cards or is a 2/2 dude.  Looking at my list, you can see I typically don't want to draw just two random cards; most of it is gonna be mana!  What I want is to be able to grab specific answers from the deck.  Drifter is the boss in the Legacy versions because they run more creatures.  Drifter there can be a Seething Song AND Divination, which is great.

I'm not saying you might not be right; Drifter is pretty awesome at the right time.  But, to run Drifter, I feel like I need to reduce mana sources, and that makes it more difficult to combo out early.  Remember, you have to generate the initial 2UU for Griffin to go off.

As for Empath, I think there was only one time where I had nothing I could do with him.  Remember, he fetches removal (Aethersnipe), card draw (Griselbrand), or a win condition (Emrakul), depending on what you need.  Since the deck runs so many accelerators, I have never seen a game where I was unlikely to at least hard cast the Aethersnipe for value.  Will food chain help?  Yes, but since your deck's whole focus is to resolve and abuse food chain, I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Now, if you want to talk about mixing up the targets for Empath, I'm totally down with that.  These three were the best I could find, but if life total is an issue, maybe you go with Fact-or-Fiction-Sphinx over Grislebrand in the aggro match or something like that?  Or draw 3 sphinx?  Or the one that draws you cards AND gets bigger for U might work too.

I think if I was to delve into this list again I would cut the jaces, remoras, and change the counter package in my list.  Or in your version's case I would cut some of the mana sources, the walls, and add an emrakul and a more reliable way of finding your combo pieces.

Why would you add another Emrakul?  He's a totally dead draw until you combo out.  This deck WANTS to see him or Empath in the hand eventually to win.  I actually had Mystical Tutor and Show and Tell in my list for awihle, and then I realized I did not want another 3 cc enabler. 

Griffin and Food Chain are such solid cards on their own that I'm usually in a very good position when I "go off," even if I can't fetch the win immediately.

If I wanted to be more reliable, I would add more tutors and disruption before I added more Emrakul.

[vaughnbros]

I definitely think you are overlooking how much better mulldrifter is than fierce empath.  Empath without a foodchain is nearly useless, he's only a 1/1 and you only have 2 tutor targets in your list 1 of which is just a bounce spell and the other is uncastable without foodchain.

I really think the two cards do different things.  Mulldrifter draws you cards or is a 2/2 dude.  Looking at my list, you can see I typically don't want to draw just two random cards; most of it is gonna be mana!  What I want is to be able to grab specific answers from the deck.  Drifter is the boss in the Legacy versions because they run more creatures.  Drifter there can be a Seething Song AND Divination, which is great.

I'm not saying you might not be right; Drifter is pretty awesome at the right time.  But, to run Drifter, I feel like I need to reduce mana sources, and that makes it more difficult to combo out early.  Remember, you have to generate the initial 2UU for Griffin to go off.

As for Empath, I think there was only one time where I had nothing I could do with him.  Remember, he fetches removal (Aethersnipe), card draw (Griselbrand), or a win condition (Emrakul), depending on what you need.  Since the deck runs so many accelerators, I have never seen a game where I was unlikely to at least hard cast the Aethersnipe for value.  Will food chain help?  Yes, but since your deck's whole focus is to resolve and abuse food chain, I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Now, if you want to talk about mixing up the targets for Empath, I'm totally down with that.  These three were the best I could find, but if life total is an issue, maybe you go with Fact-or-Fiction-Sphinx over Grislebrand in the aggro match or something like that?  Or draw 3 sphinx?  Or the one that draws you cards AND gets bigger for U might work too.

I think if I was to delve into this list again I would cut the jaces, remoras, and change the counter package in my list.  Or in your version's case I would cut some of the mana sources, the walls, and add an emrakul and a more reliable way of finding your combo pieces.

Why would you add another Emrakul?  He's a totally dead draw until you combo out.  This deck WANTS to see him or Empath in the hand eventually to win.  I actually had Mystical Tutor and Show and Tell in my list for awihle, and then I realized I did not want another 3 cc enabler. 

Griffin and Food Chain are such solid cards on their own that I'm usually in a very good position when I "go off," even if I can't fetch the win immediately.

If I wanted to be more reliable, I would add more tutors and disruption before I added more Emrakul.

They don't do different things.  Both of them are in the deck at the 3 slot to help assemble combo pieces and be broken when food chain is on the table.  I'd rather have 2 random cards where there is some chance I can draw a Griffin or Food chain then an empath that guarantees I can't get either... you said yourself that griffin and food chain are usually enough on their own then do you really need empath that really is terrible without a food chain out, hard casting an aetharsnipe is hardly a selling point on him especially when there is no guarantee I'll have 6 mana without a food chain.

Also your posted deck list isn't running an Emrakul unless you forgot to post it so I dont know why you are ragging about me saying I would add an Emrakul to your list.

[MaximumCDawg]

Hah! Whoops.  Sorry, yes, the deck runs a singleton Emrakul as the win condition right now.  I just didnt see why you'd run two in my last post.  Apologies!

[MaximumCDawg]

So, I took this deck out for a spin last night.  I did swap out one Birds of Paradise and Show and Tell for two Mulldrifters.  Small turnout, so only 3 rounds.  I ended up in second place out of seven, oddly enough, playing two Oath decks and winning one of the matches.

ROUND 1 - Against Griselbrand Oath (Loss 1-2)

Game 1 - I mull to oblivion and the predictable happens.
Game 2 - He mulls to oblivion and the predictable happens.  There was one interesting interaction that taught a lesson.  I start to go off with Food Chain, and he claims the food chain in response to me sacrificing my Noble Hierarch for the blue I needed to cast Griffin.  This allowed me to respond with Force of Will, pitching the Griffin I had not cast yet, and then still summon Griffin afterwards.
Game 3 - Finally, a real match.  We both jockey for position early with mana ramp, and I start slowly beating him with an exalted Birds.  I go off twice in this game, but he stops both.  The first time, he wisely waits until Griffin is on the STACK before he cast Nature's Claim.  I have counter backup, but he has a second Claim and still stops me from winning.  He then resolves Oath, and Griselbrand hits the table.  I am able to assemble the combo with protection again three turns later, but by then he had enough life to draw his deck in response, so he had plenty of countermagic to win the day.

ROUND 2 - Bye.  Dammit.

ROUND 3 - Creatureless Oath (win 2-0)

Game 1 - This was an experimental deck piloted by one of the best players I know.  He was basically going for a massive Yawgwill and using Oath as a mechanism to fill his yard.  In the first game, I resolve some mana dorks quickly, dumping my hand.  With me at two cards and him at four, he decides to go for it with a Timetwister, hoping to chain spells into a lethal Tendrils.  He doesn't draw perfectly, but my next seven allow me to go off two turns later.  I flash Emrakul with infinite mana and he scoops.
Game 2 - I resolve a Bird, and he responds with Oath.  Yikes.  I resolve Food Chain and sac the bird, and then resolve a Null Rod to slow the game down.  He keeps making Spirit Tokens with Orchard, which I keep sacrificing to Food Chain, and we both dig for gas.  Eventually, he again Timetwisters.  He draws seven with an Ancestral Recall (good!) but no counterspells at all (bad!).  I have a Misthollow and a Misdirection.  After I finish drawing 10 cards off his spells, I have all the pieces I need to go off that turn.

CONCLUSIONS:

The deck certainly can work, but it is not lost on me that I was only winning matches where the opponent was helping me draw lots of extra cards.  In the first, control-based Oath matchup, I had a very hard time.  He could disrupt the combo, and by its nature, Oath is very resilient to my beatdown Plan B.

In the unlikely even that you play against this type of deck, you want to disrupt the combo while Griffin is on the stack.  Do before this, they have more fuel for Force of Will.  Do it later, and they can sac the Griffin as an instant to at least get more mana out of it and leave Griffin ready to go.

I was never happy with Mulldrifter.  It's too expensive for card draw in Vintage, and if they let Food Chain stick around you're in good shape whatever you draw.  Empath is better because it is a two-card combo with Food Chain for either the win or to bounce Pithing Needle / Revoker naming Food Chain.  Potentially he should have MORE targets.  I think the Mulldrifter slots need to be draw spells, to be sure, but I think I am better off with something like Preordain that shows me as many cards but only costs U.

The mana in the deck is just about right.  I never got flooded, and I only had trouble mulling for mana once.  There were two games, however, where I only had a basic in play and was reliant on creatures for most of my mana.  This makes the deck very vulnerable to Pyroclasm.

There were lots of times I would quickly assemble tons of mana dorks and then stall out for awhile.  I feel like I need a way to capitalize on the creatures somehow, preferably with something that can be fetched by Empath...?  I dunno, my mind immediately goes to Mikeaus, but I'm always leery of Anthem effects.  I dunno.

[serracollector]

If your going to be splashing white, I have found the new sublime Archangel is very powerful.  Should be easily castable with 8 mana dorks and moxen.  Also exalted stacks on Nobles and Pridemages (another option), so swing with a 10+ damage BOP or Griffin is easily viable if you don't get your combo off.

[MaximumCDawg]

She seems good, but she does cost 4, two of which is a splash color, and you can't tutor her up easily.  Not sure on that.

Here's a strange suggestion: what about Omnath?  He drops early, his mana cost fits right in with this deck's plan, he works very well with countermagic, he's an alternative win condition with Griffin-Chain combo (you go for 1000 blue mana, then recast Griffin to make 1000/4 green mana ftw).  

Seems very intriguing...

[edit]

How about something like this:

Combo Package (14)
4x Food Chain
4x Misthollow Griffin
3x Fierce Empath
1x Grislebrand
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Mana Dorks (9)
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Wall of Roots

Other Accell (2)
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Emerald

Lands (18)
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Forest
3x Island

Dig (5)
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
2x Preordain
1x Intuiton

Countermagic (9)
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
4x Spell Pierce

Aggro Option (3)
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Omnath, Locus of Mana

SIDEBOARD

1x Omnath
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Nature’s Claim
2x Trygon Predator
3x Null Rod

Sideboard plans:

Against blue control:
Your combo is easy to disrupt, so shift more to a reliable aggro build than trying to be cute with your combo.
Out: Intuition, 1x Fierce Empath, 1x Food Chain
In: Omnath, 2x Trygon Predators

Against aggro:
You have bigger creatures than they use, but less removal.  So use even more big creatures and add removal.
Out: 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Misdirection
In: 2x Sower of Temptation, 1x Omnath

Against Shops:
Generic artifact hate supplements first turn countermagic.  Some of your creatures cannot profitably block shops early. 
Out: Misdirection, 2x Scavenging Ooze, 1x Intuition, 1x Wall of Roots
In: 3x Natures’s Claim, 2x Trygon Predator

Against Powered:
This is local, but where you face powered opponents:
Out: Sol Ring, Emerald, 1x Ancient Tomb
In: 3x Null Rod

Against Dredge
Duh.
Out: 1x Misdirection, 1x Omnath, 1x Intuition, 2x Force of Will
In: 2x Wheel of Sun and Moon, 3x Relic of Progenitus

[vaughnbros]

CONCLUSIONS:

The deck certainly can work, but it is not lost on me that I was only winning matches where the opponent was helping me draw lots of extra cards.  In the first, control-based Oath matchup, I had a very hard time.  He could disrupt the combo, and by its nature, Oath is very resilient to my beatdown Plan B.

I dont know if you were including your play testing conclusions in this, but I dont really think its correct to draw conclusions from a tournament where you essentially played 1 game against an established deck.  And I think the fact that the only games you won were basically due to your opponents twisters or mulligans should kind of show you the importance of a draw engine.

The mana in the deck is just about right.  I never got flooded, and I only had trouble mulling for mana once.  There were two games, however, where I only had a basic in play and was reliant on creatures for most of my mana.  This makes the deck very vulnerable to Pyroclasm.

There were lots of times I would quickly assemble tons of mana dorks and then stall out for awhile.  I feel like I need a way to capitalize on the creatures somehow, preferably with something that can be fetched by Empath...?  I dunno, my mind immediately goes to Mikeaus, but I'm always leery of Anthem effects.  I dunno

I feel like these two statements contradict each other.  Your mana was just about right, but there were a lot of times where all you had were a tons of mana dorks.  Again a draw engine would go a long way here.

You dont seem to like mulldrifter as an engine but there are many other options.  There are a lot of cards in your list that I feel are pretty suspect.  Im still not sold on aethersnipe, ancient tomb, empath, wall of roots, scavenging ooze, and now omnath having a place in this deck.  On a similar note I dont think it would be difficult to add a third color into this list with the birds and hierarchs mana fixing you.

[MaximumCDawg]

There are a lot of cards in your list that I feel are pretty suspect.  Im still not sold on aethersnipe, ancient tomb, empath, wall of roots, scavenging ooze, and now omnath having a place in this deck.  On a similar note I dont think it would be difficult to add a third color into this list with the birds and hierarchs mana fixing you.

There are no sacred cows in this list, but the cards you listed all have merit and I have not been upset with them yet.  Empath allows you to win on the spot much more readily when you assemble your combo, and once you have Empath, Aethersnipe is almost a no-brainer due to the need to run fetchable removal and the Empath->Snipe->Grislebrand->Emrakul win condition.  Ancient Tomb is very powerful in a deck that has so many cards with 2 in the casting cost (Griffin, Chain, Empath/Drifter, etc).  Wall of Roots is a very good blocker against Lackey, Bob, Goyf, etc, and lets you convert 1G into G  + 3 mana of any color under a Food Chain.  Scavenging Ooze is a maindeck answer to Dredge (of sorts), Yawgwill, Tiago, and Goyf, and lets you "regrow" your Misthollow Griffins if they get countered or put in the yard.

Omnath is just an idea I'm kicking around.  At the outset, he seems kind of sexy in a deck that can typically generate 2G on the second turn, ramps up with lots of mana and sometimes has nothing to do with it after a counter war, and acts as a win condition with the deck's core combo.  That's ALOT of synergy.  On the flip side, Omnath is slow, only good if you're not doing other things with your mana, vulnerable to all removal, and unlike Ooze, doesn't "do" anything short of being a big fattie.  

I have no problem at all with the concept of branching out to a third color; I think it's trivial to stay wasteland proof in a three color deck.  What would you branch into?

Do you have specific concerns / replacements with the cards you quibble with?  I mean, I read your deck list, but to me your deck sounds like it just wants to be Oath but is using Food Chain instead, trading Oath's power for Griffin's card advantage when used with Force / Manipulate Fate.  My deck is designed more closely around maximizing the utility of Food Chain, and running a synergistic aggro plan in the meantime.

[vaughnbros]

I have no problem at all with the concept of branching out to a third color; I think it's trivial to stay wasteland proof in a three color deck.  What would you branch into?

Black would probably be the color I would go into for vampiric tutor, demonic tutor, and possibly consultation and yawg will.

Do you have specific concerns / replacements with the cards you quibble with?  I mean, I read your deck list, but to me your deck sounds like it just wants to be Oath but is using Food Chain instead, trading Oath's power for Griffin's card advantage when used with Force / Manipulate Fate.  My deck is designed more closely around maximizing the utility of Food Chain, and running a synergistic aggro plan in the meantime.

My list is far from optimal I just posted it for your benefit so you could see some of the other potential playables in such a list.

I see you have cards that want colorless mana and your relatively unpowered so you want to compensate with tomb, but you really dont need it you have mana accelerators in your creatures and its not that big of an issue if you cant get up to food chain/misthollow right away.

My problem with Wall of roots and empath is from what I've played of your list and what my intuition tells me is that they are just worse than having any sort of draw engine, whether it be jace, gush, filters, ak/intution, mulldrifter or something else.

Aethersnipe is a 3 mana sorcery speed boomerang on its evoke and doesnt have an impressive body when hard casted there are much better cards.

I forgot about ooze regrowing your misthollows for that reason I can see why you are playing it now.

Omnath again just isnt impressive.  If it had trample or shroud or something, but really its about on even par with tarmogoyf in this deck and I dont see a need for a pure beat down creature in a combo deck

I would just streamline the combo with a draw engine, better tutors, and possibly more control cards.

[MaximumCDawg]

I will playtest some more tonight with your thoughts in mind.  Yes, the deck does want a draw engine, but the options are sort of awkward.  Let's experiment a bit.  Consider the slots for Root Maze, Omnath, Aethersnipe, and Empath open and consider what we slot in.

1) Demonic Tutor / Vampiric Tutor

I actually don't like these very much, and lemme tell you why.  If we go balls-to-the-wall combo, including mostly tutors and combo pieces, I feel like control decks will obliterate us.  Food Chain combo takes up so many damn slots in the deck that I think it is totally wrong to try and build it like you'd build Tinker->Blightsteel or Vault->Key.  The key, I think, is to see what other uses your combo pieces have.  Oath gets away with a pretty small package because half of the combo (Orchard) is a rainbow land, helping you reduce your land count.  Only the 4 Oath slots and 2-4 creatures are dedicated to the combo.  You have room to add tons of control AND search.  Here, the core of the combo is going to be at least 10 cards (griffin, chain, and a few win cons with inf mana).  To me, that means you really want your deck to play well with a singleton Griff or Chain on the board without a combo.  Considering all that, I feel like there isn't space for these tutors, especially the slow Vampiric Tutor.  Empath I like because it fullfills the tutor role while ALSO being a win condition with the combo resolved. 

2) Demonic Consultation

This tutor, however, has alot of merit because of Griffin.  Tutoring for Chain will often flip a Griff and give you the whole combo at once.  That's pretty hard core awesome.  Since it can tutor while potentially drawing you 1 - 4 cards in the process, I feel like this tutor in particular is powerful enough to overcome my worries about going to much into tutors and diluting the threat and disruption density of the deck.

3) Bob

I love Bob, but you're going to have at least 4 three drops, 4 four drops, and 4 five drops, just running your combo and forces.  Add in Misdirection, fatties, and other cards and he looks really painful.  He also really prevents you from playing Ancient Tomb, since the damage is just too much.  Finally, he prevents you from playing Grislebrand, and I think that's a huge mistake since Brand is easily castable with a few creatures and a Chain.

4) Manipulate Fate

This card has alot of merit, too.  It's blue, which is nice, and maybe fullfills the role of Omnath; giving your aggro plan a boost.  Readying three 3/3 fliers to cast for the next three turns is not too shabby. 

5) Yawgmoth's Will

I do not know how to think about this card; I should probably playtest it to see.  On the one hand, it is another way to recover combo pieces from the yard, potentially getting your chump blockers back for a big Food Chain turn.  On the other hand, it's just a regrowth most times.  You're not storming out in this deck.

6) Eternal Witness

Is this just better than Yawgwill here?  If Yagwill is gonna be a regrowth, why not use one that you can pitch for mana to Chain later on?  The 2/2 body is nice too.

7) Snapcaster Mage

I tried this earlier and was not happy.  I don't run enough targets for Snapcaster, and if I did, I feel like I'd be diluting my creature count to the point where Food Chain was pointless except to combo out.  That seems dangerous for a 4-of.

8) AK / Intuition

Since I'm already running an Intuition or two, AK is an easy sell.  The trouble is, this draw package is so many cards.  What do you take out?  A ponder, two walls of roots, and an Empath, perhaps?

9) Skeletal Scrying

Draws cards while regrowing Griffins.  Works well with mana dorks, but not with Food Chain.  Useless early game.  I can see the potential, but I would not swap out the cheap blue filter spells for this, because I need those for card quality in the early game.

10) Drift of Phantasms

Most legacy builds experiment with this before discarding it as too slow, and I tend to agree.  But what if you dropped Emrakul / Grislebrand / Empaths and went for a win condition of Omnath?  Now, two of the pieces of your combo cost 3, so Drift gets better.  Unlike Demonic/Vampiric, this tutor can turn into mana under Food Chain.  Unlike Drifter, this is a solid blocker if you need it, potentially replacing Wall of Roots.  Your deck is also not going to draw garbage cards that will sit in yoru hand forever.  This takes the deck more in the direction of control-sliver with a potential combo finish.  I don't think it's better than just flat out winning immediately, though.  Probably not.

Any other cards worth considering?  On the whole, I think Consultation, Scrying, and Manipulate Fate have the potential to be very good in this deck, but that's an awfully small black splash.  It does allow me to improve dredge hate, though, with Leyline of the Void, Jailer, or perhaps even Planar Void (great with Griffins).

[MaximumCDawg]

Ran the ol' Griffin Chain again last night.  Round Robin with six people.  The lineup was: Standstill, Dark Depths, Elf combo, Black aggro-control, and Talrand Gro.  Here's the deck I used.

Combo Package (13)
4x Food Chain
4x Misthollow Griffin
2x Fierce Empath
1x Grislebrand
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Mana Dorks (9)
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Wall of Roots

Other Accell (2)
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Emerald

Lands (18)
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Island

Dig (5)
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Intuiton
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Skeletal Scrying

Countermagic (9)
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
4x Spell Pierce

Aggro Option (3)
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Omnath, Locus of Mana

SIDEBOARD

2x Sower of Temptation
3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Steel Sabotge
3x Nature’s Claim
2x Trygon Predator
4x Null Rod

ROUND 1 - Combo Elves (Loss 0-2)

Elves is just faster and more reliable as a combo, and my deck lacks necessary tools to really interact much with them.  I can stop a single combo piece, usually, but then the elf player goes aggro and finishes the game quickly anyway.  Can't get there.  It doesn't help that I have to mull to 3 and 6 both games to find green mana.  Bonkers, right?

ROUND 2 - Dark Depths (Win 2-0)

Game 1, my opposition draws wastelands, missteps, and removal galore and I can't do anything for five turns.  He doesn't draw anything else, though, and eventually Omnath comes out and starts beating face.  I combo out and kill him with Infinite Omnaths.  

Game 2, he just draws badly.  We skirmish over countermagic and ramp in the beginning, with me Forcing a Dark Ritual to pitch a Griffin.  I love it!  I finish him off with too many beaters.

ROUND 3 - Black Aggro-Control (Win 2-1)

This was an odd deck with Bloodghast, Nighthawk, Smother, Dark Confidant, and lots of discard.  He kept me off combo with targeted discard, but I have more and largercreatures than he does.

ROUND 4 - Landstill (Win 2-1)

Game 1, I had an advantage in that he didnt understand what I was doing.  He has a decisive card advantage with Ancestrall Recall and a Snapcaster, but he does not dedicate resources to stopping Food Chain.  Once it resolves, I cast a Griffin I exiled with Force of Will, and then chain that into the Emrakul in my hand.  He was surprised, but pleased to see a new combo, and scooped.

Game 2, his deck does what it does best.  He resolves Standstill after Standstill, backing it up with Mishra's factories.  His card advantage buries me.

Game 3, Omnath arrives and beats him down early before his Standstill comes online.  Go Omnath!

ROUND 5 - Gro (Loss 1-2)

Game 1 - He can't draw a creature except Snapcaster.  He out draws me, but I eventually grind him down by continuously recurring Griffins.  He has no problem keeping me off my combo, but I keep recycling 3/3 fliers from exile off pitch counterspells or regrowing them with Ooze.  Eventually he runs out of defenses and is overwhelmed.

Game 2 - I get an early board presence, but can't draw more gas.  He has counterspells galore to stop me from trying to search for combo pieces, and eventually stomps me with a big Dryad.

Game 3 - He gets the nuts.  Turn 1, Fastbond into 4 lands.  Turn 2, Drain my Intuition with backup.  Turn 3, Talrand AND Dryad.  I can't find an answer in time.

CONCLUSIONS

Once people know what you're doing, this combo is incredibly easy to disrupt.  Removal of all kinds, discard, countermagic - they'll all stop it.  I was never able to combo off against someone who knew what I was doing unless I was winning anyway.

Omnath is just like a Goyf.  People cannot afford to let him stick around, because he gets out of control fast.  If he had protection or evasion of some sort, that'd be great, but he's really cool as is.  Costing 3 is a little cumbersome, but he was feared whenever he dropped.  His interaction as another combo piece was really sexy too.

Pitch counters and Ooze just might be enough reason to run Griffin all on their own.  The advantage you get against a control deck when you're using Force of Will or Misdirection without going down a card is really powerful.

[mikekilljoy]

While  you show some nice results, I would be more inclined to see how this deck would perform against real Vntage decks (Shops, Dredge, Bob/Jace Control, Noble Fish, Oath, etc...)

[MaximumCDawg]

So I took Griffin.dec out for a spin again this weekend.  I tweaked the deck again, with the goal of playing it more like a BUG Fish deck that aims to abuse Griffin, with the combo kill being just gravy.  Here's my build:

Creatures (19)

4 Deathrite Shaman 
4 Noble Heirarch
3 Trygon Predator
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Fierce Empath
1 Aethersnipe
1 Grislebrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Tutors (4)
2 Manipulate Fate
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Disruption (11)
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dark Blast

Other (2)
2 Food Chain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
 
Lands'n'Mana (23)

Sideboard (15)
3 Nature's Claim
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Annul
3 Flusterstorm
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb

I only got to play three rounds, only two of which mattered.

Match 1 - Against Salvager Combo - Loss 0-2

First game, we both kept the other off our combos using countermagic, but he had more than I did.  And abrupt decay is really, really bad removal to be packing against Salvagers.  He finally comboed off on turn 12 or something. 

Second game, we had an early game back and forth over Deathrite.  I had a Jace in my hand, and I wondered if he was keeping me off four mana specifically to prevent Jace; he had not seen my hand or seen Jace last game, however.  I couldn't bring myself to burn a Force of Will to protect a Deathrite when I had a second one in my hand for the next turn, and this allowed him to cast his own Jace first.... and Time Walk before my Deathrite was online and I could nuke his Jace.  Two turns in a row with Jace active set him up just fine and he won at his leisure after taking control.  Afterwards, he confirmed that he had intuited I would be running Jace in a BUG build, and was playing specifically around it.  I bow to his astounding Jedi Mind Powers.

Match 2 - Against a newbie with a 66 card deck using Standard mana fixing and a bunch of EDH bombs - Win 2 - 0. 

Match 3 - Kuldotha Forgemaster MUD - Win 2-0

Game 1, he drops a Chalice at 0 which I couldn't care less about and then Force his follow-up Lodestone Golem.  He puts out some Tanglewires and eventually some sphere effects, but I keep up with him on lands and mana dorks.  I resolve a Trygon Predator, which he answers with a Phyrexian Metamorph, and we stalemate for awhile.  Noble Hierarch puts my Trygon over his metamorph, and he burns his board for a duplicant to finish it off.

Still, he cannot do much on his own during the turns it buys him.  Eventually I cast the Griffin from exile and it goes to work on his life total.  Girffin plus a few Hierarchic is a true beating!  On the turn I slam him down to 3 life, he has an active Forgemaster and enough artifacts to go get a Trike.  Then I cast the second Griffin from my hand, however, and the game ends shortly thereafter.

Game 2 - I draw Food Chain, Emrakul, and Manipulate Fate in the first turn.  Okay then.  He draws alot of Tangle Wires but not much other gas.  I'm packing all six of my sideboard hate, so I'm able to counter the important sphere effects as the Tangle Wires start to wear off, giving me enough time to cast and execute the combo for the win.

I think this BUG version works much better than the dedicated combo version.  The combo, while fun, is simply to easy to disrupt.  Recurring Phantom Monsters all day is pretty awesome, though.