Revisiting Heavy Beatdown, Finding Solutions

[Guli]

Hi fellow vintage players

After the printing of Cavern of Souls, I have been trying to find a solid, working shell for it. The card opens up a lot of design space but the most interesting route in terms of 'vintage playable' is, in my opinion, the use of human creatures. This is because Dark Confidant, Noble Hierarch, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Mayor of Avabruck form a powerful skeleton crew, answering a lot of the problems you might face in the meta.

I have played, refined, tuned and tested and arrived at the next list:

4 Mental Misstep
2 Grafdigger's Cage

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Vithian Renegades
3 True Believer

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Ghost Quarter

SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 3 ?

In this list, a couple of aspects are rather unorthodox. The mana base for example consists of what I invented a long time ago, a rainbow configuration. In the past I used Tarnished Citadel instead of Cavern of Souls and had a non human tribal creature base (f.e. Death's Shadow). The second part of the mana base consists of creatures. Noble Hierarch and Elvish Spirit Guide are cards that I have also used in the past to combat Workshop and/or Prison type of decks. I choose for a heavy strip package for the same reason. The goal is too accomplish a mana advantage and deny mana while Dark Confidant and Mayor of Avabruck take control of the game. Especially against Workshop based decks this is the critcal strategy. You aggressively take down their lands and shut down artifact mana with Phyrexian Revoker. Then Mayor of Avabruck comes in and flips and you start swarming the board with 3/3 Wolves. You have Noble Hierarch, Elvish Spirit Guide, Moxes to fall back too when they put pressure with spheres. Somehow you want to sneak in a Mayor and keep them off as much mana as possible. I noticed this was not always enough, sometimes you just needed one additional threat. More specifically, there was a lack of removal/destruction. The reason for this is Qasali Pridemage. He is not on board because the deck wants consistency in terms of casting the threats you have. So I looked for a human that could do what I needed. I made a list of possible includes and eventually ended up with Vithian Renegades. This card provides us the removal we need but also lines up with the mana denial plan. Furthermore, the 3 power is important, it can increase the clock dramatically while doing what Phyrexian Revoker is doing 'on the move', hence giving tempo. It is not uncommon to open up with turn 1 Thalia to follow up with a turn 2 Revoker or Renegades to shut down a mox. Not to mention the wasteland package that might further put you ahead.

I am not worried about the Workshop match up, but I still added some SB cards for it. You really don't want Mental Misstep in game 2 and game 3. The Kataki will come in in any case, but you could also think about bringing in the extra Cages against the Forgemaster builds. Or, if you see welder and crucible, you rather want some of the graveyard removal with Crypt instead of 3 True Believer and 4 Mental Misstep.

True Believer is in to combat Oath of Druids. Meddling Mage was also an option, but it can not stop a resolved Oath of Druids. True Believer is actually the reason why I made this thread (in addition to Vithian Renegades). With these two cards I make an attempt to solve some issues with the Workshop and Oath of Druids match up. Normally, 4x Qasali Pridemage main deck hits both these match ups. But in this case, human tribe with Caverns, you are forced to come up with an alternative plan. This led to the inclusion of 2 Grafdigger's Cage and 3 True Believer main deck to have outs against Oath and Y Will/Tendrils combo decks.

Burrenton Forge-Tender in the sideboard (wizard type!) is a card that I bring in when I see Bolts, Fire/Ice, Goblins and when I expect Pyroclasm. It is not a human but it can save your entire board. A subtle bonus is that the card can be useful against dredge (bridges & firestorm).

I think it is nice to leave some sideboard slots open because you can fill these in accordingly based on your own environment. With these open slots and the choice of True Believer, Renegades I would like to discuss the direction of this Cavern human build. Are there other solutions to some match ups that come to mind? Please share them if you have idea's that respect the presented concept.

Guli - Thank you for this post.  In the future, please use capitals for the title of threads you start - Prospero

[Ozymandias]

This deck has two outs, both proactive, to Tinker-Robot. I think it's a major problem for you.

[Archae]

I definitely agree with Ozymandias; I'd like to take the idea to a larger context, though. Without countermagic (with the exception of the 4-of Misstep), you are vulnerable to fast game-ending threats (e.g. tinker, vault-key combo, etc.) that you can't outrace.  For this reason, I think Meddling Mage should be in your 75.  Maindeck, though one consideration, if you want to go the human creature route, would be Magus of the Unseen. Proactive answer to vault-key, stops opposing tinkers (except Inkwell, of whom you are not afraid), and makes the shop matchup even more in your favor. 

Otherwise, can we fit in some way to get more sphere effects (Glowrider, Canonist, etc.) or a way to deal with redundant Thalias? I haven't playtested the deck at all, but without a Confidant on the board, drawing into a Thalia with one out seems less than ideal for this deck. I understand Thalia can essentially time walk your opponent, but you need to follow it up with more threats or more wastes, I would think.

Last, against opposing Tarmogoyfs or the like, do you need to just rest on Mayor and Confidant to out-creature and out-resource them? I see Revoker for Ooze, but I guess I worry about your opponent dropping a larger creature and you not being able to attack profitably. Maybe Mikaeus in as a 1- or 2-of in the board?

[Blue Lotus]

I would count thalia + mana disruption as an out to tinker so I don't think that criticism is warranted

edit - also, this is something I feel very strongly about. Vintage is a high variance format with a moderate amount of luck involved. There are many powerful and diverse threats. If you try to build a deck that just answers everything you will end up with an inconsistent pile of goo.

[msg67183]

What about civilized scholar in this deck? He will loot out extra uneeded copies and then flip into quite a beater. Just my 2 cents.

[vaughnbros]

I would count thalia + mana disruption as an out to tinker so I don't think that criticism is warranted

It's not really a very strong mana denial package though.  1 sphere effect and 1 strip effect isn't going to stop someone from dropping oath, tinker,  or anything else for that matter.  This will make it very difficult to beat broken blue.  

The creatures this deck is running dont compete with goyf and there is no way to deal with fliers at all making it a race against things like delver.  This will make RUG delver, noble fish and the other blue decks running trygons and goyfs bad match ups.

The mana base is also all non basics making it very vulnerable to strip effects.  So any other deck running a mana denial strategy can take advantage of this deck.

If you want to make this more competitive I'd put some removal and more lock pieces.  I think meddling mages and fiend hunters would be huge additions to this.  I can't think of any other really strong humans other than those though.

[Guli]

The mana denial package consists of:

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia
2/3 Vithian Renegades

4 Noble Hierarch and 3/4 Elvish Spirit Guide are there to generate a mana advantage. This can indirectly act as mana denial when they wasteland one of your lands. In essence they have traded a land for a land, just like you do with wasteland. The important thing is to come out on top in the mana denial/buildup war.

This deck has the potential to win off the bat with turn 1 Cavern/Thalia followed by artifact shut down with Revoker and/or Renegades. With mana denial it becomes hard to fight a Mayor, that can seriously increase the clock and flip to create free 3/3 tokens which will also act as a serious clock or turn the table against any form of aggro. Tarmogoyf or Golem will not be able to keep up with Mayor.

I am worried about flyers like Delver and Trygon. The list I used in the Duck tourney had 2 Stun Sniper for this reason to control problematic creatures by tapping or killing them. Fiend Hunter is also a card that I use from time to time and is a good suggestion. So I agree that some form of removal or control is needed. There are other options by the way! And I am sure we will see more interesting human printings in the future.

I felt like I had to choose between True Believer and Meddling Mage (the Oath of Druids problem). I like the fact that Believer can stop Oath after it resolves. SImilar to a Cage. Think about it, the strategy is to lay down pressure with the cards mentioned above. You want to execute your main plan and achieve your goal of mana denial. And while doing that, they might succeed to sneek in an Oath of Druids or Show and Tell or Tinker. This is why I opted for answers that can come down after the threat is played. This is not entirely true with Cage, it can actually prevent Tinker and Y will and Dredge...

What about civilized scholar in this deck? He will loot out extra uneeded copies and then flip into quite a beater. Just my 2 cents.

I tried to minimize any unneeded copies of cards by adding cards that are simply strong on their own. Bob, Revoker, Mayor, Renegade will always be useful. Thalia is so strong, that you just push in 4 copies and ignore the legend side-effect. This is acceptable and based on my experience of past games, it rarely is an issue that loses the game. On the contrary, you most often NEED a second copy in your hand. Because trying to kill a Thalia usually means tapping out most of your mana and passing the turn. You just renew the threat and lock with your second copy.

Revoker is the only non human in main deck, but he is so easy to cast so that is acceptable. But I feel like with Zigurat and City (and also Cavern if you draw multiple) there might be room for another non human, because revoker is cast with any form of mana, being non human is not really relevant.

Noble Fish runs a good amount of counter magic, Cavern can give you a serious edge, if not game ending. If they can not get rid of Mayor, they will lose the game eventually. But there are so many threat they have to take care of. Can't let a Bob wander around for too long, Thalia is a pain... The vulnerability is Revoker and opposing Trygon. I want something that takes care of this issue. I wonder how Baleful Strix would work out in the mix of all the humans.

[msg67183]

What is your answer to a resolved magus of the moon? I see nothing.. Thats my only concern with your list.

[Daenyth]

Grim lavamancer is human and can really take over games against fish or delver if he sticks.

[vaughnbros]

Grim lavamancer is human and can really take over games against fish or delver if he sticks.

His mana base can't generate red mana consistently to activate lavamancers ability.  Daybreak ranger is a much better creature to use in this deck than others with activated removal.

I see your argument for true believer but I really do think meddling mage is just vastly superior because it actually effects every deck and multiple copies aren't useless.

[Guli]

What is your answer to a resolved magus of the moon? I see nothing.. Thats my only concern with your list.

Haven't seen much Blood Moon lately to be honest. But it is true that I would have to rely on Noble, Esg and on color moxes if a Blood Moon effect hits the board. Excellent feedback, I will add this issue to the list of problems.

I summed up most of the strengths of the deck, it is good that we are exploring the weak spots. There are slots that can be opened to cover for these soft spots.

So far I read;
- Issue of creature control or creature removal
- Blood moon effect (specifically Magus of the Moon)
- Meddling Mage over True Believer?

Grim Lavamancer would be awsome, but I don't really fill up my grave that aggressively. No fetches, bolts or alikes. And I don't want my creatures to die. So it is mostly Mental Mistep and Wasteland that hits the grave. In practice, stuff die so I can see a Lavamancer activate itself twice or so with city of brass. But it seems too risky. Other options besides Stun Sniper that can shoot or get rid of creatures and/or other permanents? It is ok that it would costs 2 or 3 mana. Would Magus of the scroll or others be viable?

[Lurker101]

I agree with Archae about Magus of the Unseen being a good addition. Personally, I've always had a soft spot for Devout Witness (human spellshaper) as well.

[serracollector]

Ulvenald Tracker could easily take care of the magus of the moon problem, alongside nobles, and ESG's.

[Guli]

I think Huntmaster of the Fells is also a very interesting card in this deck. I am thinking 2 copies maindeck alongside Mayor. In a lot of the games, I have been able to build up my mana and cast my spells because I am putting a lot pressure by attacking their mana. Huntmaster of the Fells can also deal damage and I can choose to transform it by passing the turn. Because of Thalia and mana denial in general, it is hard to cast spells for my opponent during their own turns, let alone my turn or end of my turn. Mana denial + Transform go hand in hand.

I want to report a game I played just a couple of hours ago to show how I race an early Tinker with the help of my transform bears.

T1: I win the roll and start of with a Cavern/Jet and Thalia. Good start.
Opponent responds with land/mox/mana crypt. Good response and a bit lucky to have all that in opening hand.
T2: I follow up with turn 2 Mayor and Noble and swing for 4 damage. He is at 16 life.
He untaps and loses 3 to Crypt. His life total is 13. He casts Tinker and DSC hits the board. He probably thinks the game is over.
T3: I calmly untap and draw a land. I play my land and cast Huntmaster of the Fells. I pass my turn.
He untaps and wins the roll to crypt. He swings and I block with Noble. I have 9 poison. He plays a bunch of spells under Thalia: fastbond, Gush, demonic tutor, Gush, plays 2 additional land with fastbond etc. In the end he gathered a good amount of cards but because of Thalia he eventually has to pass. His life total is 11.
T4: I untap and swing for 9 damage. 3/2 Thalia, 3/3 Huntmaster, 2/2 Wolf (huntmaster etb trigger), 1/1 Mayor. I can play a spell but I pass the turn to transform Huntmaster of the Fells. He has no EOT spells (can't).
He untaps and wins the roll, no damage from crypt. He continues to draw but I point out that Huntmaster transforms and deals 2 damage to his face, which is lethal.

[Guli]

Ok so there was this issue with the match up against RUG Delver type decks. The problem in general can be defined as that the high quality creatures being used by the Human/Cavern deck are soft pricks. They can't stand a little lightning or work on the farm. Cheap removal like Bolts, Fire Ice, Forked Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, Swords to Plowshares in combination with Snapcaster Mage can be a bit problematic. I didn't want to give up on the flavor and aggressiveness of the deck by adding cards like Mother of Runes. We brainstormed about this in our 'team'. I talked to several people who are involved and finally I decided to add Tarmogoyf as another non-human. Now I know Tarmogoyf does not give board control or stops annoying flyers like Delver and Trygon. But, he does add extreme pressure IN THE MIX of the human shell like Revoker does. Revoker helps out Thalia in her quest to squeeze the opponent, while Tarmogoyf helps Mayor in the clock and muscle war. With Thalia and Believer as anti-combo/control cards, Tarmogoyf will also shine just nicely doing what it has been doing for years, shutting off windows for the opponent to come back or deny the time to find outs.

So instead of trying to protect my Mayor or Bob, I just swing with a 4/5 that they CAN NOT burn that easily. So their plan of board wiping and outracing the human deck will not work anymore. Sword to Plwshrs will still work but I haven't seen a deck with Snapcaster and STP usage in a while now. So a 1 to 1 trade is just fine in my book, it doesn't stop the human deck for a bit. Still I didn't want to just ignore the possibility of Snapcaster action. So I still have those 2 Cage maindeck and am using Surgical Extraction in the mix.

Also, I added the full set of moxes, cut some lands, and cut the Elvish Spirit Guide.

The Chalice from the SB is an idea. I don't want it game 1 against a blind opponent. But once I have more information on their deck (a lot cc1 spells) or for example I am on the play versus Shop, they can be very nice.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True Believer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Stun Sniper

1 Surgical Extraction
4 Mental Misstep

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 City of Brass

SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Tarmogoyf
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Vithian Renegades
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter

[Guli]

I have been playing with the human shell again. In the light of MUD, Dredge, Delver and the Snapcaster/Removal I figured the human creature base needed help to stay alive mid game. But there is need for more:

- Protect versus Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, JaceTMS Bounce ability, ... basically any kind of spell/ability that targets your Thalia, Bob, Mayor or other creatures.
- To have an answer against flying creatures like Delver, Trygon, Clique

Mental Misstep is already 4x maindeck, for a while now, and it does its job just nicely. Curve wise though there is Misstep which costs nothing unless you need to pay 1 with Thalia active or if you have a blue open. Then there is a bunch of 2cc spells supported by the artifact acceleration. That is about it. The deck is frankly very cheap. All your important bears are 2 cc.

The second match up that I want to strengthen is Workshop. So I want mana crypt and sol ring, and another thing I figured out is that, with all the cheap bears and spells, there is really room for a card like Crucible of Worlds. The card just says NO to opposing Crucible, which is one of the strongest cards versus my mana base and deck. And since this deck is mainly GW with bob as black splash and MM as blue splash (plus all the rainbow lands) you can easily run some Horizon Canopy alongside Crucible making it a draw engine. Crucible can keep you in the game against Smokestack, can create locks for Mayor, can draw you cards with Canopy. I also added Gemstone Mine and cut Ancient Zigurat.

The additional mana acceleration is not just for Crucible, it has 2 more reasons. It helps to fight Lodestone Golem nicely. If my Mayor and Wasteland starts kicking in with crucible there is not a lot the shop player can do. The second reason of the extra acceleration is the card that will support Mental Misstep and those 2 issues I mentioned above (protection and anti flyers). I am trying Restoration Angel for this purpose. It has an easy mana cost, sure 4cc is a lot but it only requires one white and this makes it rather easy to splash even if it is a non human. It is as easy as casting Revoker color wise in this deck. I think 3 copies in the deck will help out nicely in mid game. The card stops those nasty fire ice on Mayor and Noble, a scenario were they want to 2v1 you. It counters basically any targeted removal. In fact, it does more, it generates tempo and makes you 2v1 THEM. Because they lost a card, they will need to spend time and resources to kill the Angel or try to kill that Thalia again. Angel is like a reactive Snapcaster Mage in this deck. The Flash ability makes you use it as a counterspell. Alongside, with the same logic, I am also trying 2 Venser, Shaper Savant. It is a mid-range answer that this deck needs and it works nicely with Cavern (can reset Cavern vs control) and Angel. It basically answers anything and can help finish of a game by bouncing a blocker so you can alpha strike or it can save something that is targeted. Or you can bounce a bob or crypt when needed. It can bounce back Tinker/Show and tell creatures and stall versus Oath by bouncing. With Mayor on board, Oath does not get that many time anyway.

I have been trying out Restoration Angel, Venser, Shaper Savant, Crucible of Worlds, Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and I like how it support the Human shell by 'attacking' the opponent from a different angle.



3 Restoration Angel
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 City of Brass
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mental Misstep
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Karakas
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 True Believer
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Maze of Ith
SB: 4 Yixlid Jailer

[bluemage55]

Is protecting your threats really worth reducing your threat density substantially in order to play the mana needed for 4cc creatures that don't disrupt the opponent?

Instead of playing 31 mana sources and 3 Restoration Angels + 2 Venser, you could be running 25 mana sources and 11 more threats.  That seems far more effective than trying to get a beatdown deck to play with reactive 4cc cards.

If it's somehow actually more effective for a beatdown deck to give up ~40% of its threats to support some pseudo-countermagic, then we really should be asking the question of why we aren't simply playing a control/aggro deck instead.

[Guli]

You are wrong when you think running a lot of threats in your deck means you will be able to keep a steady stream of threats during the game. Without any tactical support and preparation to specific lines of play were your opponent tries to 2v1 your (which means your board is nearly wiped, good luck coming back with all your threats in your DECK).

And what threats will you run anyway that will change the course of the game anyway? They will still remove something of you with their removal spell, then cast snapcaster to do it again. Meanwhile they are building up, maybe drop a bob or jace, cast a recall and so on and so on. You need to be able to interact with flexible cards. Restoration Angel gives you a 3/4 flyer which deals with most aggro anyway. When going to the mid game against a control with creatures in their deck like Trygon and Delver + Snapcaster and Bolt or something else, you will be very happy to have an Angel in your hand instead of 'another threat'. It IS a threat.

Venser is probably too expensive for what it does (if he had a 3/4 body he would be very worth it), maybe just run Æther Adept and generate tempo like that.

[Blue Lotus]

any thought on geist of saint traft? It has built in protection from removal and can also be paired with ninja of the deep hours quite nicely.

Also, the mana seems crazy. I count 11 permanent lands? This seems like a way to lose to MUD more often than not.

[Guli]

Losing to MUD? Sure... But not due to the mana base. With Crucible, Noble, amount of artifact mana, I have the advantage versus Workshop when entering a mana denial war.

Geist = win condition when it resolves, it can go very fast. The card is simply amazing. I would be less hesitant if he was a human.

Back to the Workshop thing, the only problem versus Shop is that they cheat their way through with a Metalworker. I desperately need a Revoker in hand (casting it is not the problem in this deck) at that moment. Or if they go nuts with double shop and Wurmcoil/clone it and so on... To overcome this issue STP is the good old option.. But it would be nice if I could skip it and go for a plan that involves putting their lands to the grave and lock it out with crucible. Whatever go through the lines, BOUNCE. In theory they would not be able to recast it because the prressure on mana base.


How about this maindeck? (6 open slots and no sideboard)

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mental Misstep

2 Restoration Angel

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mayor of Avabruck

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

I would like to fill those 6 slots with flexible cards that overlap with what I am trying to do.

[Blue Lotus]

Losing to MUD? Sure... But not due to the mana base. With Crucible, Noble, amount of artifact mana, I have the advantage versus Workshop when entering a mana denial war.

How often do you resolve a crucible vs mud? This just seems extra hopeful to me. Looking at your mana, chalice at zero + any sphere looks like a lock. You also have thalia in your deck which seems like a bad choice with crucible and full artifact mana.

What I'm saying is: As mud has been doing well and should increase in play, I feel a four color creature deck is a poor choice for a given expected metagame.

Also, how do you beat oath typically?

[serracollector]

Those 6 slots should be a combination of Aven's, Meddling Mage's, True Believers, and Stony silence.  If your trying to run the mana denial suite, then run it well.  Aven stopping fetches is amazing.  Also flash, and flying.  It should be in every critter build that can run it.  You need something other than Revokers and Thalia's that can stop bombs and tutors, and Meddling mage/Aven are the answers.  True believer ofc for the Oath/Storm decks.  But could easily be sb option.  I personally might run an angel or 2, but probably sb for decks that u know run 4 bolts, 4 EE, or the such.  I don't understand no stony silence?  Thalia, Revoker, and a "hopeful" crucible really dont seem enough IMO.

[bluemage55]

You are wrong when you think running a lot of threats in your deck means you will be able to keep a steady stream of threats during the game. Without any tactical support and preparation to specific lines of play were your opponent tries to 2v1 your (which means your board is nearly wiped, good luck coming back with all your threats in your DECK).

“Threats” do include cards that deny the opponent’s ability to respond, and good examples from your list include Thalia and Revoker.  My main concern is that you’re going too far by playing 4cc creatures when you should be keeping aggro decks more efficient instead.  

Venser is probably too expensive for what it does (if he had a 3/4 body he would be very worth it), maybe just run Æther Adept and generate tempo like that.

Yeah, this is what I mean.  I don’t disagree in principle with the idea of protecting your threats, it’s probably just not optimal to rely on a large mana base and 4cc cards to do it.

Losing to MUD? Sure... But not due to the mana base. With Crucible, Noble, amount of artifact mana, I have the advantage versus Workshop when entering a mana denial war.

How often do you resolve a crucible vs mud? This just seems extra hopeful to me. Looking at your mana, chalice at zero + any sphere looks like a lock. You also have thalia in your deck which seems like a bad choice with crucible and full artifact mana.

Perhaps Loam would be a superior option to Crucible?

[xouman]

I wonder why nobody is proposing Phantasmal image or Phyrexian metamoprh. They are solid answers to tinker robot, tarmo, delver/trygon/vendillion, steel hellkite/wurmcoil... you can copy any own creature but thalia,they're crucibles in front of opponent crucible...

I wonder if they are considered humans when copying one (probably metamorph is?) so they can't be countered when paid with a cavern.

I believe that mother of runes or knight of the reliquary are too slow and not solid enough in vintage but they can be taken in mind.

[Guli]

Every-time I cast crucible it felt amazing. The opponent's reaction was like, that is unfair! This basically means that it is unexpected and hurts them. Also with Gemstone Mines, you really appreciate Crucible. The occasional lock with Strip or Quarter happens and is welcome. When all things fail, there is Canopy which acts as a LOA for us with Crucible to rebuild hand size. Crucible gives me a way more easier game. I can't explain it I think, but it is like 'overloading' your opponents. There is absolutely no difference to a blue control player whether it is a Thalia/Crucible on the table or a Golem/Crucible. I have ways to increase my clock too with Mayor and Exalted. I also have Revokers.

Angels are specifically to even up things against aggro. It enables the deck to take a more control role. If Mayor survives in the aggro mirror (any aggro mirror) with the help of Missteps and Angels (and the Angel on itself is not an easy threat to deal with, the Mayor quickly single handily takes the game. Thalia supports this 'protection' game in her own way but it is still a soft lock. She helps to draw fire and set up a solid defensive posture. So against aggro control, I am happy to go in the mid-game with Crucible, Angel, Bob, Mayor.

The thing with Thalia, Revoker and the mana denial is that they work brutal sometimes in the early game. But say we add Glowrider to stack up more sphere effects and go truly prison to make it a hard lock. In that case, yes, the Crucible soon becomes uncastable. And Rider does nothing against Workshop and little to aggro. Look, my experience tells me that it is not about threat density anymore, though it is still important. Blue/Aggro/Control are prepared to seize the momentum, play a nasty tempo game, it does not matter how many threats you run. So I tend to rely on my Thalia, she is the threat I run, and she has to get the job done with the help of Revoker and land destruction. If I don't draw her, I probably have bob, mayor, revoker or misstep to keep them busy.

You are wrong when you think running a lot of threats in your deck means you will be able to keep a steady stream of threats during the game. Without any tactical support and preparation to specific lines of play were your opponent tries to 2v1 your (which means your board is nearly wiped, good luck coming back with all your threats in your DECK).

“Threats” do include cards that deny the opponent’s ability to respond, and good examples from your list include Thalia and Revoker.  My main concern is that you’re going too far by playing 4cc creatures when you should be keeping aggro decks more efficient instead.  

There is nothing inefficient about blinking a creature that is being targeted leaving you with an ALIVE threat and a 3/4 flyer threat. Maybe the Angel will not be able to protect the first Thalia, but that Thalia just pushed the game into the mid game. Eventually, you will be able to blink one of your bears to safety and/or block something to death.


Those 6 slots should be something that gives board control. This is why I wanted Venser, it just works versus anything, is a human, is a nice blink target, resets cavern, saves a dude on occasion, answers tinker  , show and tell, oath... But the lack of a body doesn't satisfy us, especially with the 4cc. Angel is not like this, I like the flying and 3/4 you get in addition to the blink ability.

Stun Sniper is a serious option that works nice on the offensive as well. Phantasmal Image is strong, used it, it works.

I don't like Knight of the Reliquary because the lack of forests here, and Mother of Runes is not a good turn 1 drop, but it is best dropped at turn 1. You either drop a turn 1 Noble, opening yourself to wasteland BUT with noble backup, making them waste your land, also makes them use a land drop, which can be actually good for US. Or you open up with a land/mox > bear. Thalia is the strongest, but Bob and Mayor are also good, all three are also OK with being wastelanded. Mayor flips, Bob digs for lands, Thalia does mana denial so they are far behind. This is why this deck works, all humans somehow make up for our full non basic mana base.

That being said, maybe this deck should run BURN. At least this will enable an out against Magus of the Moon and deal with the board.

-1 Mana Crypt
+1 Mox Ruby

+4 Lightning Bolt
+2 Stun Sniper

Something like that?

[bluemage55]

You are wrong when you think running a lot of threats in your deck means you will be able to keep a steady stream of threats during the game. Without any tactical support and preparation to specific lines of play were your opponent tries to 2v1 your (which means your board is nearly wiped, good luck coming back with all your threats in your DECK).

“Threats” do include cards that deny the opponent’s ability to respond, and good examples from your list include Thalia and Revoker.  My main concern is that you’re going too far by playing 4cc creatures when you should be keeping aggro decks more efficient instead. 

There is nothing inefficient about blinking a creature that is being targeted leaving you with an ALIVE threat and a 3/4 flyer threat. Maybe the Angel will not be able to protect the first Thalia, but that Thalia just pushed the game into the mid game. Eventually, you will be able to blink one of your bears to safety and/or block something to death.

The inefficiency isn’t the card itself.  The inefficiency is the fact that you have to substantially dilute your threat density to run the mana needed to throw around 4cc spells.

There’s a good reason why 4cc spells in Vintage are primarily the domain of blue (with mana drain and the card drawing to put together mana sources), are played off Shop, or are cheated into play.

[Guli]

You are wrong when you think running a lot of threats in your deck means you will be able to keep a steady stream of threats during the game. Without any tactical support and preparation to specific lines of play were your opponent tries to 2v1 your (which means your board is nearly wiped, good luck coming back with all your threats in your DECK).

“Threats” do include cards that deny the opponent’s ability to respond, and good examples from your list include Thalia and Revoker.  My main concern is that you’re going too far by playing 4cc creatures when you should be keeping aggro decks more efficient instead. 

There is nothing inefficient about blinking a creature that is being targeted leaving you with an ALIVE threat and a 3/4 flyer threat. Maybe the Angel will not be able to protect the first Thalia, but that Thalia just pushed the game into the mid game. Eventually, you will be able to blink one of your bears to safety and/or block something to death.

The inefficiency isn’t the card itself.  The inefficiency is the fact that you have to substantially dilute your threat density to run the mana needed to throw around 4cc spells.

There’s a good reason why 4cc spells in Vintage are primarily the domain of blue (with mana drain and the card drawing to put together mana sources), are played off Shop, or are cheated into play.

I agree with this, but let me ask you a question. Would you run something like this:
~
  2/2 Human Wizard
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield Humans you control gain protection from the chosen colour.

Sacrifice a Human: Return ~ to its owners hand.

This does NOTHING to your opponent mana denial wise, but it does disrupt their removal plan.

I am asking because I want to know whether it is the mana cost you are worried about or you just don't find it necessary to have protection. Do you believe that more threats is always the answer to anything? Or do you have a nuanced opinion about this? Oh, I don't really like the card that much that I invented above, I would make it much more tasty than that But I used it as an example to find out your thoughts.

[serracollector]

Steely Resolve naming humans for 2 CC?

[Guli]

Steely Resolve naming humans for 2 CC?

I think you and I discussed this online? Didn't we conclude that it looked good on paper but that we can't really afford running an enchantment that does absolutely nothing versus Workshop. There is no time to cast that under spheres. At best it is a SB option.

I want to throw in another discussion in this thread.

Chalice of the Void versus Mental Misstep

Chalice: In human/caverns there are almost no spells with cc1. And Noble can be caverned into play. Also chalice on the play can supplement the mana denial plan brutally.

Misstep: turn 0, protects versus removal, stops early things if you want, but it is a one time shot, doesn't work under thalia, usually you lose life which matters sometimes, only stops noble and ring in terms of mana denial

Chalice seems to be slightly favored, but I have been playing with Misstep for so long now, I am a Misstep addic.

[bluemage55]

You are wrong when you think running a lot of threats in your deck means you will be able to keep a steady stream of threats during the game. Without any tactical support and preparation to specific lines of play were your opponent tries to 2v1 your (which means your board is nearly wiped, good luck coming back with all your threats in your DECK).

“Threats” do include cards that deny the opponent’s ability to respond, and good examples from your list include Thalia and Revoker.  My main concern is that you’re going too far by playing 4cc creatures when you should be keeping aggro decks more efficient instead.  

There is nothing inefficient about blinking a creature that is being targeted leaving you with an ALIVE threat and a 3/4 flyer threat. Maybe the Angel will not be able to protect the first Thalia, but that Thalia just pushed the game into the mid game. Eventually, you will be able to blink one of your bears to safety and/or block something to death.

The inefficiency isn’t the card itself.  The inefficiency is the fact that you have to substantially dilute your threat density to run the mana needed to throw around 4cc spells.

There’s a good reason why 4cc spells in Vintage are primarily the domain of blue (with mana drain and the card drawing to put together mana sources), are played off Shop, or are cheated into play.

I agree with this, but let me ask you a question. Would you run something like this:
~
  2/2 Human Wizard
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield Humans you control gain protection from the chosen colour.

Sacrifice a Human: Return ~ to its owners hand.

This does NOTHING to your opponent mana denial wise, but it does disrupt their removal plan.

I am asking because I want to know whether it is the mana cost you are worried about or you just don't find it necessary to have protection. Do you believe that more threats is always the answer to anything? Or do you have a nuanced opinion about this? Oh, I don't really like the card that much that I invented above, I would make it much more tasty than that But I used it as an example to find out your thoughts.

My opinion is more nuanced.  Perhaps “threat” wasn’t the right word, the main issue is just that running high mana cost cards screws up the density of business by requiring too many mana sources.  The card you proposed would absolutely be valuable to your human deck.

Steely Resolve naming humans for 2 CC?

I think you and I discussed this online? Didn't we conclude that it looked good on paper but that we can't really afford running an enchantment that does absolutely nothing versus Workshop. There is no time to cast that under spheres. At best it is a SB option.

I want to throw in another discussion in this thread.

Chalice of the Void versus Mental Misstep

Chalice: In human/caverns there are almost no spells with cc1. And Noble can be caverned into play. Also chalice on the play can supplement the mana denial plan brutally.

Misstep: turn 0, protects versus removal, stops early things if you want, but it is a one time shot, doesn't work under thalia, usually you lose life which matters sometimes, only stops noble and ring in terms of mana denial

Chalice seems to be slightly favored, but I have been playing with Misstep for so long now, I am a Misstep addict.

In a vacuum, Chalice is probably stronger if you’re not running Rod/Stony.  However, in a meta infested by Shops and Dredge, Chalice is ineffective against both while Misstep is at least solid against Dredge.