Maximizing Gush in the Post Gencon Meta

[Onslaught]

I had a vision, of a world without Gush. The Delver decks ground out a few wins and the Shops shut them down, one tournament at a time. And it was so...boring. I've had a change of heart. I don't want Lodestone Golem spoiling everything, but why should I have all the fun? Let's give someone else a chance. If a Gush Control deck doesn't win a tournament in sixty days, then I blow up a metagame.

Lodestone Golem has already made my favorite archetype (Dark Ritual based decks) become completely irrelevant. This year, zero Gush decks made T8 at Gencon. You're probably thinking "well it's just one tournament, that's a small sample size. Gush is as good as ever!"

You've got some nerve mister. But, the data also raises a few alarms. In the last three months, there have been eight Vintage tournaments with 30 or more players around the globe. Of those 64 decks that made T8, only 11 had Gush. Of those 11:

Aggroish (4): 3 Delver/Tarm, 1 Tarm Remora
Comboish (3):  1 Doomsday, 1 Griselbrand Oath, 1 Gush/Ritual Tendrils
Controllish (4): 1 Drain Tendrils, 2 Remora Tendrils, 1 Bob/Gush

The blue deck du jour right now is essentially an updated version of Suicide Jace Vault. You've got your Bob draw engine for resilience against Shops, you've got the updated inclusion of Snapcasters, and then the usual Tinker/BSC/Vault Key package with a bunch of Jaces. This is a very good deck, but theoretically a Gush deck should have an advantage against it. Whenever I make a blue deck, my goal is always to make sure the maindeck beats blue since blue vs blue is the most common matchup. Since control based Gush should have a natural advantage against Bob based decks, I wanted to try making a deck with the opposite strategy. That is to say, my thesis was:

"What happens if I build a Gush deck that is meant to be good against Shops G1, in hopes that the natural strength of Gush over Bob gives me an advantage over other blue based control?"

Of course, Gush alone is no way to beat the current Bob/Snapcaster decks. Since Lightning Bolt is so well positioned against both Workshops and Bob, the first thing I knew when starting this list is that I wanted a lot of them. This is where Snapcaster comes in. Snapcaster recurring Bolts is hardly a novel strategy, but it is especially nice in a Gush deck that is trying to completely minimize dead cards against Workshops. Snapcaster lets you run a very minimum amount of situational counters while still having access to a seemingly overwhelming amount of them. The flexibility of Snapcaster in Gush lets you run fewer Missteps, Flusterstorms, REBs, and so on - all while still being able to keep up on the stack with other blue decks. From here, I had a pretty clear vision of the deck. Gush engine, 2 or 3 Bolts with 3 or 4 Snapcaster, and avoiding lots of "greedy" cards.

There is a lot of temptation to get greedy with utility spells when you have Snapcasters. I would love to run a Spell Snare in this deck. Fire/Ice (and even Dead/Gone) always appeal to me in Snapcaster decks. A third Misstep would have been nice. Misdirection is always cool. I love a singleton Duress in control Gush builds. I prefer Tendrils as a kill over ETW when playing in a vacuum. I want my 15th land to be Library of Alexandria instead of another Island. I almost always have Clique in control Gush. Too bad! All of these were excluded in the name of stability. Again, the hope is that Gush > Bob as a draw engine in the blue vs blue match, while hoping that Snapcaster gives you enough redundancy of your minimal counter package to just barely scrape by. Your reward for playing this way should be a strong matchup against Shops G1, AND theoretically you have ability to run extra Dredge hate since you have freed up some sideboard slots with things like maindeck Grudge, Nature's Claim, etc.

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Gush

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Hurkyl's Recall

1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

7 SoLoMox
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island

Sideboard: Mountain, Viashino Heretic, Ingot Chewer x2, Dismember x2, Leyline of the Void x4, Yixlid Jailer x2, Flusterstorm x2, Pernicious Deed x1

At one point while building this I had the Samoht GSZ package, with x1 GSZ, x1 Tarm, x1 Trygon Predator, and x1 Ooze. I even considered x1 Lotus Cobra as a GSZ target. In fact, Lotus Cobra x4 was heavily considered at the start of the deck design process, just because intuitively it feels like the best way for Gush to be built against Shops. If you used white instead of Red, you can turn the Ooze into Qasali Pridemage, change Bolt into STP, and cut the Grudge/ETW for Vault/Key. You can also drop a Jace and ETW if you want Vault/Key.

In the end, this is basically an ECW style deck that has Snapcasters and more maindeck removal. That isn't much of a revelation, but I don't think I've seen many pure Gush lists out there running 3+ copies of Snapcaster. If you are predicting a metagame where the majority of the blue decks you face will have Bob, then I think something like this is really well positioned.

[Commandant]

You couldn't pay me to play a Gush list outside of New England.

I've never found Gush plus Snapcaster to be anything but awkward.

There are better engines/meta slots that can give an edge against Dark Confidant based blue lists while not falling victim to mana denial strategies.

That being said the only future (in my mind) for Gush in a permanent based Type 1 is Talrand. Check out the list from the July LCV.

[Samoht]

I'd advocate my Griselbrand Oath list as a solid blue deck that uses Gush well. Obviously there is a dis-synergy between Forbidden Orchard and Gush, but it's not as devastating or as common as you might imagine. You generally are either a quick combo deck with Oath and Orchard that doesn't really need Gush, or a BUG Control deck that uses Gush very well.

As for the list you posted, I feel the Green splash is very greedy without the creature package. I think you're better suited to just ratchet up the basics as opposed to forcing Ancient Grudge/Fastbond. Obviously Fastbond+Gush is amazing, but I don't think it warrants such an inconsistent mana base. As someone who played a 4c Gush list for a long time, I can attest to the issues of a Ux dual that doesn't actually let you cast most of the non blue cards in your deck being the last thing you want multiples of. You're likely better off going -1 trop +1 mountain main and then +1 trop -1 mountain sb (but that very well could be my Tri-State Shop-centric Meta dictating my thoughts).

I have to second the nombo of Gush + Snapcaster. You're either returning lands so you you're behind Snapcaster mana, or you're slowing down your tempo to accommodate the mage.

I disagree that Talrand is the only future for Gush, as I feel that Griselbrand Oath uses it quite well.

[desolutionist]

This year, zero Gush decks made T8 at Gencon.

That's because I wasn't there.  I really like Snapcaster Mage too; I think you're on to something.  Another trick I've been thinking about is 1-of Oath of Druids w/ 1x Snapcaster and BSC as the only targets.

[Onslaught]

That being said the only future (in my mind) for Gush in a permanent based Type 1 is Talrand. Check out the list from the July LCV

I love Talrand (to the point where I posted predictions that it would make waves at Gencon), but a 2UU creature that needs to cast additional spells to be relevant is the last card I want to put in a deck that is trying to beat Shops G1.

I've never found Gush plus Snapcaster to be anything but awkward.

I have to second the nombo of Gush + Snapcaster. You're either returning lands so you you're behind Snapcaster mana, or you're slowing down your tempo to accommodate the mage.

Intuitively, I thought the same thing. When the first Snapcaster builds that were making T8 formed, I was positive that they would never overlap with Gush. It just makes sense that there would be too much tension. But I tested it x2 in Gush anyway, and it was good. Good enough that it led me to investigate a deck like this with x3 or 4. With ~60 matches played so far, there haven't been many moments where I felt silly for combining the two.

I really like Snapcaster Mage too; I think you're on to something.

Yea! The versatility is just such a nice flow in Gush Control, I always feel like I have just enough tech against Blue while not drawing those groan worthy hands against Shops.

[V is for Vintage]

I've been running Gush since it got unrestricted, and I don't think the matchup is as horrible as people make it out to be.

I went 4-2 at worlds (dropped after the second loss when the judge told me the payout was only to top 8)

My wins were against

Shops rd 1
Shops rd 2
Dredge rd 4
Oath     rd 5

My losses were against

BUG fish rd 3 (0-2)
- Game 1, mull to 5, he has turn 1 recall with a force to match mine
- Game 2, mull to 6, lose the card advantage race

Shops rd 6
- Win game 1 on the draw
- Get blown out by double lodestone game 2
- Lost a close game 3, after getting locked out by chalice on 1, then chalice on 2, when i kept the volc in my hand to protect it from wastelands, holding ancient grudge.


In testing, no matchup was unwinnable.

 If the landstill player's last name wasn't potucek, the matchup was over 50% likely to win, if it was josh, then it was 50/50

 Shops has consistently been becoming a better matchup as they change their strategy to beat creature decks

 RUG Delver is a matchup where you have to race damage ( any aggro based deck isn't that great of a matchup, but the delvers fly).

 Oath was probably my best matchup, and I wasn't that concerned with alot of other blue decks.

 Dredge was a fine matchup with the board. I beat it in the prelim and the main event without much trouble. I would've beat it game 1 in the main event if he wasn't mainboarding leylines.



I do like Snapcaster mage though, I used to run him as a 1 of in East Coast Wins, and he really helped to pull from behind.  I think the argument that "It doesn't work with Gush" is irrelivant. You can't snapcaster BOBs either, and they're the draw engine for most non-gush blue decks!

I think snapcaster does some very positive things for gush decks. One of the things I like about it is that it's a creature, in a deck that is NOT creature based. Gush decks that try and run cobra  and bob fall into the same trap....all of their opponent's creature kill spells become active cards. Snapcaster is much more like another instant/sorcery in the deck, and losing his board presence is usually not as crippling as when someone bolts a cobra or a bob.


I, in no means, intend to hijack this thread, but this is the list I ran. I think I will take advice from this thread, and see if we can't make room to squeeze some number of bolts and snapcasters in.

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Gush
3 Mystic Remora
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Preordain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Nature's Claim
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Fastbond
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Repeal
1 Timetwister
1 Rebuild
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Flusterstorm
1 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ravenous Trap


There were definitely a card or two i'd change in the main/side for the event, but overall I was still very content with the way the deck ran. The more people choose to underrate gush, the better the deck will become.

[Commandant]

That being said the only future (in my mind) for Gush in a permanent based Type 1 is Talrand. Check out the list from the July LCV

I love Talrand (to the point where I posted predictions that it would make waves at Gencon), but a 2UU creature that needs to cast additional spells to be relevant is the last card I want to put in a deck that is trying to beat Shops G1.

You concede that blue is the most common match yet build the main to combat shops and while understanding the goal of this exercise, it seems rather futile. If the meta constrained lists to answer shops game one of every match; Dark Confidant would in fact be the correct call. I find it is of far greater value to build torwards expected matches, use meta slots to gain percentage points against boarderline matches, and to never skew the list to account for the worst match ups.

Talrand offers something new and unique to post restriction Gush. While he is not game breaking in the shop match, he is a primary color win condition with high synergy, low investment, and high reward. Talrand also offers greater value across a wide meta which is really what you should look for to improve an engine that historically has been a dog to one of the main pillars of Type 1.

It's worth noting that it is not unreasonable to generate a fair amount of tokens with Talrand even against shops.  

[Onslaught]

I don't see how it's futile to think "I want to win blue mirrors, so I will play Gush as my draw engine instead of Bob." Obviously Bob is better against Shops than Gush, so first and foremost I am taking that blue vs blue match into account. From there, maximizing the list against Shops while still maintaining a winnable blue matchup is the goal. In a way, I'm trying to "quantify" how much better Gush is than Bob in blue vs blue by seeing how little I can devote to that matchup. Every time I draw a Nature's Claim that would be better as a Flusterstorm, every time I draw an Island that could be a Library of Alexandria, etc - it's in those situations where I'm finding out "does Gush allow me to overcome those deficiencies and still win?"

Even with those shortcomings, there is still a lot of overlap in the deck of slots that are good in both matchups. The Bolts are obviously multifunctional, and Snapcasters allow you to recur whatever tech is useful in each matchup instead of having to guess which individual tech cards to maindeck.

You don't have to sell me on Talrand, but I think Empty the Warrens is better than him in certain builds (like this one).

[V is for Vintage]

After testing with Talrand, i agree that empty is the better card, simply because you want your win condition at the END of a spell chain, rather than the beginning. I was 100% on the Talrand plan when it was spoiled, but after trying to get it to work for some time, i came to the conclusion that he's not fit for current gush builds.

I think Talrand is more suitable in a deck like Landstill, or a mono blue control deck, where he can be put on the field, and sit as a win condition with no fear of getting removed. If you're a deck that has multiple turns after the casting of your win condition, I think Talrand is a fine choice.



Please do your own testing to draw your own conclusions, don't take my word for it.

[Samoht]

After testing with Talrand, i agree that empty is the better card, simply because you want your win condition at the END of a spell chain, rather than the beginning. I was 100% on the Talrand plan when it was spoiled, but after trying to get it to work for some time, i came to the conclusion that he's not fit for current gush builds.

I think Talrand is more suitable in a deck like Landstill, or a mono blue control deck, where he can be put on the field, and sit as a win condition with no fear of getting removed. If you're a deck that has multiple turns after the casting of your win condition, I think Talrand is a fine choice.



Please do your own testing to draw your own conclusions, don't take my word for it.

You're right, I just feel Jace does what Talrand is trying to do but better.

[Commandant]

After testing with Talrand, i agree that empty is the better card, simply because you want your win condition at the END of a spell chain, rather than the beginning.

There is solid value in a low investment win condition that puts less emphasis on the stack especially in a format where Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm are commonly played. On the play Empty has value against shops however I've found the card declining in value over the past few years against a large portion of the Type 1 meta. There's something to be said about a win condition that can grind out incremental advantage especially in match ups where you may be limited to one spell a turn. Talrand really shines in games where you are often forced into reactive positioning. Every Nature's Claim or Mana Drain you throw at shops improves your board position and generates a path to victory; with cards like Empty you are often forced to choose between reacting and generating a way to win.

You're right, I just feel Jace does what Talrand is trying to do but better.

Care to elaborate? This statement makes little sense to me as Jace, the Mind Sculptor is functionally different and is often subpar in matches where Talrand does major work.

[vaughnbros]

You're right, I just feel Jace does what Talrand is trying to do but better.

Care to elaborate? This statement makes little sense to me as Jace, the Mind Sculptor is functionally different and is often subpar in matches where Talrand does major work.

I'm not sure if this is what he was referring to, but Jace and Talrand do have quite a few similarities in play.  Both are usually the top end of your curve, are generally difficult to get rid of after they resolve, and they win the game if they go unchecked.

The difference I've found lies in what match ups each one excels in.  Talrand usually excels against creature heavy decks as he can generate enough creatures to out creature pretty much any other deck or any other card.  Jace usually excels against non creature decks as his biggest weakness is in fact creatures cause they can attack him.  

Now when Jace does see creatures, if theres only 1 he can bounce it, if theres less than 5 power he can fateseal, and even in his worst case hes a brainstorm that gains you life.  When Talrand doesnt see creatures, unless your opponent has been dealt a significant amount of damage earlier, he is probably only going to put them on something around a 3 or 4 turn clock.

Also a Jace resolved when you have no hand still puts your opponent under just as much pressure, but a Talrand resolved when you have no hand does relatively nothing.

They do however play well off each other as they cover each others biggest weakness, Jace's being too many creatures in play and Talrands being having no instants/sorceries in hand.

[V is for Vintage]

After testing with Talrand, i agree that empty is the better card, simply because you want your win condition at the END of a spell chain, rather than the beginning.

There is solid value in a low investment win condition that puts less emphasis on the stack especially in a format where Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm are commonly played. On the play Empty has value against shops however I've found the card declining in value over the past few years against a large portion of the Type 1 meta. There's something to be said about a win condition that can grind out incremental advantage especially in match ups where you may be limited to one spell a turn. Talrand really shines in games where you are often forced into reactive positioning. Every Nature's Claim or Mana Drain you throw at shops improves your board position and generates a path to victory; with cards like Empty you are often forced to choose between reacting and generating a way to win.

You're right, I just feel Jace does what Talrand is trying to do but better.

Care to elaborate? This statement makes little sense to me as Jace, the Mind Sculptor is functionally different and is often subpar in matches where Talrand does major work.

I agree, to a point.  I would point out that there's not many games where I land a Jace and it doesn't win me the game against shops, but that's neither here nor there.

Generally speaking, the longer the game goes, the longer the gush deck has to use precious combo resources to try and win. The goal of a gush deck is not to drag the game into overtime, but to find the path to victory as quick as possible, while still being able to protect yourself. Talrand is better suited for decks that have a longer end-game in mind

[Commandant]

@vaughnbros:

This makes sense. The Talrand list from LCV ran both Jace and Talrand and I would expect going forward for this to remain correct. My major point of contention is Talrand over Storm.

@ V is for Vintage:

Jace is 4 cc that gets hit by every resistor effect and Revoker. Modern shops has the threat density where it is often hard to protect Jace and fatesealing at or below parity can be a death knell. While I agree an early Black Lotus into Jace can win against shops I have never found it to be consistent in mana light lists i.e. Gush. It's incorrect to not prepare for the mid to long game in modern Type 1 especially against shops.

[Samoht]

Talrand is only good when you have a hand/spells to back him up AFTER he lands. Against any traditional deck, you are either going to be choked on CMC by spheres, exhausting your hand to get him to resolve through counters, or be too slow to win the game. As far as them working well in conjunction, that's pretty much a win more attitude. If you have the ability to have Jace in play, drop a 4cmc sorcery, and then play spells, I really doubt you'd lose anyway without Talrand.  If I am trying to cast a 4 mana sorcery speed effect, it better put in some immediate work. I can tell you how little fear Land Lotus Talrand inspires me with, whereas Land Lotus Jace is the bane of my existence. Noble Fish/Hate Bears is the only match up where Talrand MIGHT be better than Jace. If I'm building my deck so that my main win con is better against hate bears, I'm probably doing something wrong.

@commandant: I'm not sure what you need elaboration on. They are both trying to win games. One can do so from slightly behind(Jace), the other requires neutrality at best. Talrand is simply ineffective when he is at the bottom of the stack trying to resolve and all of the counters fly. By all means I hope you can prove me wrong, but my testing of the card has shown to me that I want it to be Jace instead every time it lands.

@vito: landing jace vs martello doesn't mean much for a storm deck. it is a blowout vs espresso early, but that deck has waned in popularity and can still go Karn animate+kill.

[PeAcH]

Well played Onlsaught

On a general level, I think Gush can either go two ways.

You can play a comboish approach with more tutors/cantrips and Tendrils as wincon.

Or a more controlish approaches (include more board control in the form of solutions (claim, f&I, Repeals in Europe...) and include the kill in form of Tinker BC). Once you play Tinker, playing with TWVK seems the reasonable move. You can add some Jaces to the mix, but the PW suffers from the LoA problem, not good against hyperaggresive decks.

CORE ELEMENTS

After a looooot of testing and tournament plays for some months now, the absolute core shell of the deck nowadays for me would be:

1 Vampiric tutor
1 Mistical tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
4 Gush

1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth´s will

2 Flusterstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
4 Fow

The counterpackage suffers against Mud due to dead draws, but it´s really good vs blue in general and helps protect your hate vs Ichorid during sideboarded games.

After trying a lot of things, my choice is that to be able to win against Mud, the best option is playing the second Hurkyls:

2 Hurkyl´s Recall

and having 23 producers and a stable manabase (4 islands recommended):

4 Islands
6 Fetchlands

The rest would go:

2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Mox emmerald
1 Mox Saphire
1 mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol ring

Still some slots left to go up to the 23 producers.

3 Oncolor moxes (at least), BL and SR. Mana crypt can be left out depending on the build and ability to return it to your hand or destroy it (Tinker or bouncers).The duals and fetch configuration would depend on the sideboard you are using a heavy green splash or the 4th color splash. Regarding the 3rd USea, I would play it in case I am killing with Tendrils so maybe I´m also maindecking Imperial Seal. If not, I would rather play another island/fetch as you only play 3 black cards main (VT, DT, YW).

This would be my absolute core. Everything that goes beyond this, really depends on meta choices, personal configurations, etc...

NON CORE ELEMENTS

Regarding filling cards, you can either go: Preordain, Remoras or Jace. It does really depend on your meta. In an unknown or big meta, I would go for 3 Preordains. I really like them as if you are playing 23 producers, you don´t have to cantrip into lands and act as semi drawing quality managers If playing with Remoras, adding repeals is just a natural move.

On utility and board control, anything can almost go: Repeals, Nature´s claim, Steel Sabotage, Echoing  truth. Snapcasters seems a nice addition to the mix on an intuitive level also.

On the wincon section, there are some options: Tinker+BS, Tendrils, Talrand, Brainfreeze, Vault+key, maindeck Trygons...but not many more.

On the Talrand issue, I have to say that when I played it in the LCV I was greately impressed on it´s performance. Against certain matchups it´s really golden. I would recommend playing it on the sideboard as a substitution for Tinker BS in the matchups you know the robot can be answered and don´t want to go all in. It blocks a creature rush and provides a really fast kill almost unmolested due to flying.

LoA seems really unimpressive to me lately. Yes, it wins games vs your blue buddies playing @ home for the Lolz, but when you are in a tournament things are different. It really shines when you are on the draw that´s when you maximize it´s effect, but having in mind you are not facing an hyperaggresive deck (RUG Delver, MUD or Dredge anyone?). You don´t want to see it in your opener once you have mulliganed (for instance down to 5 when you would just kill for an island).


Going Red

However, as Onslaught mentions, against BOB decks (on the rise lately in Europe and USA) & utility in general red seems a really good option as 4th color:

1 Fire and Ice
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mox Ruby

F&I does not kill Golem, but it dodges MM in the matchup you need it. You can get it with Merchant and it pitches to FOW. Bolt does not and on an reasonable level, does not play a major role in a control/combo deck.

The red Splash provides the best anti Mud card (Ingot Chewer) to go along with the Hurkyl´s Recalls.

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ancient Grudge

I would also add Empty the Warrens on the main as well as grudge to go along as anti MUD but also against TMVK decks as you force them to go for the YWill.

On a personal preferences level, I have tried different builds, and I think you don´t really need for the red splash in case you don´t want to. Steel Sabotage and claim main or some repeals can also seal the deal for the non red enthusiasts.

The sideboard would really depend if you go green for Nature´s claim, heavy green or heavy Red (Mountain, chewers, grudges, bolts). And if you play with Trygons or not. If so, I would rather play with the Forest on the board. If you don´t play with Trygons, I would not play the forest (just for 2/3 claims does not seem enough for me given the fact that normally the first CotV will be set @ 1).

What I would do is just focus on MUD and Dredge as these would be your main concerns on a tournament. I personally play with 6-8 slots dedicated to fight Dredge exclusively.

MOVING FORWARD & QUESTIONS


Onslaught has provided a well point to start this discussion on Gush. Everyone of us who loves Gush would love to see a decklist worth the time to play and fight the tier 1 on a fight of equals.

Are Snapcaster´s and red worth it?

Is messing with the manabase really dangerous given the peak Mud is reaching nowadays played in all forms?

It has to be said that GAT has been played before in a 4 color incarnation and had it´s time of success. Yes, it was another time and playsets of Brainstorm and Merchants were running rampant. Maybe that´s where the problem lies: we try to repeat something that worked before but under circumstances which are not the same.

What are your thoughts on the core of the deck?

Would you change anything on that?

I think a good way to advance in the deck building process is to settle a base and go forward from that point.

Thanks for reading!

[Phele]

Great read Peach. I would just say, that I think Library is terrific in Gush builds. No other deck has the abbility to refill its hand to seven again so easily so it can be golden in almost any game situation as even against aggressive builds you need to dig for your kill as far as you can go. I would cut Library in Confidant builds much easiere than in Gush decks.

[Twiedel]

As this is in the general strategy discussion, I'll not so much commentate on your decklists as to the question in general: how can you make gush decks work.

Gush as an engine basically does 3 things for your deckbuilding:
a) You have to rely on Islands in play, so not too much fancy stuff with academy, library, wastes, whatever.
b) You have to play green to fully utilize the engine (as it is far too good to have a fastbond in play).
c) Your gameplay has to involve having lands drops - the longer the game lasts, the easier it will be to profit from your engine (fastbond excluded, but you can't always have it).

So, here's already the big problems, with b and c. In my opinion, playing green is by far worse to playing red in any other blue deck. The reasons are simple: lightning bolt (a smaller one) and Ingot Chewer (the main reason). Workshops are on the rise again, and to beat them, you need to have fast outs to their aggression. Similar, Jace and Confidant are played A LOT - and they n easily be answered by Bolts. There is no way green can provide anything that comes even close to what Bolt does vs blue and shops or what ingot chewer does to shops all by itself.
The result is, you either try to go for gold (in adding a fourth color), which weakens your manabase overall, which is highly relevant vs workshop decks OR you go for UGR, with leaving black off the deck (not a good idea by any means) OR you just take it like a champ and try combating workshops with lesser means, as nature's claim/dismember quality cards. This could be backfing a lot, as your matchup is already quite a struggle with spheres making your free draw actually cost mana and taking back lands seems like one of the worst ideas ever...

And then, there's also c - a point that is highly affecting your dredge game. Having Land, Mox, Confidant vs having Land, Mox, Gush is a HUGE difference in Games 2 and 3 vs the Bazaar player. You can't really build up your mana fast and draw cards at the same time (still, unless you go broken with fastbond) ... so I always find the dredge matchup is getting at least a bit worse with gush than with a confidant build.

So, to sum that up, I think when you are playing gush, you definately have the edge over other draw engines in the blue mirror (except maybe if someone with Intuition AK comes along ), but, you are taking - in my opinion even more - a percentage loss at workshop and dredge opponents.

Long story's short: You need a sideboard that is really kicking it as far as shops & bazaars are concerned. Now, if I browse through this thread, I see decks with less then 5 Moxen, without Mana Crypt, with Snapcasters and Remoras, no tinker even, with dredgeboards consisting of 6 cards... I'm pretty sure this won't work. Of course, if your metagame is more than 50% blue decks, you might give that a try, and might do well with it, but if you are planning on playing and winning a top 8 you have to make sure to beat shops & dredge... and I'd say they are laughing at these choices

just my 2 cents

P.S.: Don't feel offended, I love gush maybe like no other in Germany, and I'll be the person most happy if you can make it work - I just don't see it happening in the near future...

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

In general I don't really agree with your post Twiedel. If you are having problems beating shops with a gush deck it's probably because you are building it wrong. East Coast Wins was a gush deck winning with key vault, tinker, and/or empty the warrens. Not only that but often times it ran 3 islands, 1 claim, 1 hurks, and grudge main deck.

Green is not an issue when it gives you access to ancient grudge. That is one of the best cards against workshop decks. Additionally mountain was generally in the sideboard also to keep the mana base stable vs shops. You may think a 4c mana base is weak but it's not when the deck is polited properly. The deck ran 7 fetch lands. I'm not sure if you experienced the wave of "East Coast Wins" but it was a gush deck that handled shops, dredge, and blue. Generally it had adequate shops hate for game 1 then just goes over the top after that.

In conclusion I believe gush is fine against shops and dredge when the deck is build and piloted correctly. These are the biggest factors as many lists are subpar or not piloted correctly. So that's my 2 cents on the topic!

[Twiedel]

Hey there oshkoshhaitsyosh,

I honestly like that you always seem to be in opposition to my posts - a good base for being productive. Could you give me an example list? As you stated the deck ran 4C - which is what I also ran a lot when I played gush some while ago. I somewhat disagree that grudge will be a total blowout, it was always more of a gamble to me (I actually played it a lot as a two-of in my ists with 4C) ... either them have a slow draw and you completely demolish them with grudge, or you're always 1 mana short of casting it.

Anyway, the deck was probably played in the pre-flusterstorm era, when your percentage against other blue decks was way more important (not so much shosps & dredge) and way easier to achieve (like getting easy wins with empty, which is worse now with flusterstorm in the equation).

You may think a 4c mana base is weak but it's not when the deck is polited properly.

In conclusion I believe gush is fine against shops and dredge when the deck is build and piloted correctly.

I want to comment on two things especially. A 4C manabase can't work is NOT what I said, but it is a fact that it is easier to mess with and more unstable than other options. Having less of each dual, ocasionally not drawing into fetches, all of this happens and is worse with more colors (no matter how proficient the pilot is).
And what is by your definition "fine"? My post tried to evaluate the position of a gush deck against other blue decks - and it feel like decks gushing have harder times against these decks than decks that don't gush. (with all the decks being piloted correcly of course) So I want to be clear about this: One can feel Oath is a "fine" deck, positioned "fine" against the other decks - but it is still by all most means a deck of lesser win ratio than the other blue decks, including gush. I hope I could make my point clear, if not, I'll blame it on my bad English 

best regards,
Marc

[TheProfessor]

I played Gush Tendrils and Vintage Champs and this was my list. The only change I made to the list from the first Prelims was cutting the Library of Alexandria for the 4th Underground Sea.

1 Blightsteel Colossus

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Fastbond

1  Ancestral Recall
1  Brainstorm
1  Gifts Ungiven
2  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Mystical Tutor
1  Nature's Claim
1  Vampiric Tutor
4  Mental Misstep
3  Mana Drain
4  Force of Will
4  Gush

1  Demonic Tutor
1  Duress
1  Imperial Seal
1  Merchant Scroll
1  Regrowth
1  Tendrils of Agony
1  Time Walk
1  Tinker
1  Yawgmoth's Will
2  Preordain

1  Black Lotus
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Sol Ring

3  Island
2  Tropical Island
4  Underground Sea
2  Polluted Delta
4  Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:

2  Dismember
1  Duress
1  Flusterstorm
2  Hurkyl's Recall
2  Nature's Claim
1  Pithing Needle
3  Ravenous Trap
2  Yixlid Jailer
1 ? (cant remember what it was because I cant remember boarding it in)

My matchups were:
Rnd1- Griselbrand Oath (2-1)
Rnd2- Noble Fish (2-1)
Rnd3- Merfolk (2-0)
Rnd4- Dredge (1-2)
Rnd 5- Dredge (2-0)
Rnd 6- Worshops (2-1)
Rnd 7- Workshops (1-2)
Rnd 8- Dropped since prize support was only promised to Top 8

I was 5-1 (11th place) going into round 7 where I punted in game 3 against Workshops.  I made a rookie mistake followed by not paying attention to my opponents plays.  I really wish I would have played better. My only loss up to that point was to Kevin Poenisch, one of the 2 dredge players that made Top 8.  After losing to my own mistakes, I dropped in favor of getting some food and watching the Top 8.

This deck was great all day.  It feels really solid.  I won a majority of games off the back of an early Tinker-Blightsteel, but I did occasionally storm for the win. I dont think that Workshops is that bad of a matchup, although it is by far the worst for this deck.  I won every game one I played against Workshops which was pretty exciting.  I can't remember what the 15th card in my sideboard was, but I think it should be cut for another dredge hate card. The only other card I would cut from the sideboard is the Duress, but I am not sure what I would cut it for.  I have tried adding red to the deck several times.  It makes the Workshops matchup a little better, but I feel like the deck is missing something when I add red.


I think that Gush is viable right now, but only if built correctly.

[Smmenen]

I made top 8 of the Vintage Champs prelims with Cobra Gush.  I was 3-0 against Workshpos in that tournament.   My report is here: http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2965

[brokenbacon]

I recently top 8'd the July NEV Series with a Bob Gush list (thank you Mr. Mastriano and Mr. Menendian). Here it is for reference:

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Echoing Truth
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gush
1 Fastbond
4 Preordain
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
3 Trygon Predator
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Island

SB:

4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Island
4 Steel Sabotage
1 Doom Blade
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl’s Recall



I'm still playing it, and while you need to play tight against Shops this is true of every Blue deck. The list is stupidly powerful, and I think the combination of Gush and Bob gives the deck ridiculous resiliency. (Don't worry, I have more Dredge hate now )
I highly recommend you (whoever you are, dear reader) pick it up and test it. There's a reason why this deck exploded onto the scene a while back, and I'm not entirely sure why it faded.

[PeAcH]

Do you think that Preordain should be played in controlish builds of Gush?

Would you play them additionally to the 23 mana sources?

If you Preordain into lands/producers all the time, it makes sense to play with Preordains AND 23 producers to be able to card quality manage for max value.

I have been testing with 3 Preordains lately and gave the edge versus Blue control builds.

Regarding Twiedel comment, I agree and think that full power Crypt should be played to be able to support Tinker.