R/B beats

[TheWhiteDragon]

Okay, so I'm working on a B/R deck (my favorite colors).  It has no fantastic matches, but no bad matches either.  It is build to answer anything permanent based and especially to break through shops.  It can beat dredge and standstill and oath and shops and fish and storm G1 at least 50% of the time.  But, it doesn't do much better than 50% game 1 vs anything except shops.  This is where the sb comes in.  The list is as follows:

// Lands
    4  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Badlands
    3  Mountain
    4  Swamp
    4  Cavern of Souls

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Magus of the Moon
    4  Gorilla Shaman (1)
    2  Goblin Welder
    1  Grim Lavamancer
    1  Viashino Heretic
    1  Rathi Trapper
    1  Royal Assassin

// Spells
    4  Liquimetal Coating
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Grafdigger's Cage
    1 [JGC] Mana Crypt
    1  Surgical Extraction
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Darkblast
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    2  Shattering Spree
    4  Duress
    1  Extirpate
    2  Rakdos Charm
    2  Sword of Fire and Ice
    1  Lightning Greaves

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Viashino Heretic
SB: 3  Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 1  Extirpate
SB: 1  Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2  Stingscourger
SB: 1  Ali from Cairo
SB: 1  Goblin Vandal
SB: 1  Perish


So, right now you see there are only 13 SB cards - cause I can't think of 2.  I tried ratchet bombs, and they really suck with the varied CCs I have.  Set low, they often hurt me as bad as the opponent - and I have many other ways to handle moxen/chalice.

A main line of play is to use liquimetal coating to destroy any permanent with shattering spree, rakdos charm, welder/shaman, heretic.  Lands can quickly be eaten with a liquimetal and shaman and I have kept players to 1 mana several games off an accelerated hand.

A second main line is to just play great utility critters and use caverns to make them uncounterable.  11 critters are human (DC, MoM, trapper, lavamancer, and assassin), 4 are shaman, 2 are goblin, and 1 is viashino.  With 18 cheap critters, equipment becomes very nice in fighting fish and jace.  Enter 2 SoFI, 1 greeves.  Greeves is great to make a hasty assassin/lavamancer/trapper/welder against critter decks.  I can even haste a heretic to blow something up like an oath (though that is 5 mana and a bit of set up)  Haste/shroud has helped immensely vs Jace and the trapper/welders handle BSC nicely when cage isn't in play.  I could go up on equipment.  I had +1 sword, +1 greeves, -trapper, -assassin, but then I'd get multiple equipments with no creatures at times, which is bad.  The extra critters help fight critters too, so it somewhat takes the place of the equipment.  With rakdos and spree, I don't fear null rods either.

On occassion I can duress/destroy a clutch spell and extirpate/extraction it out to cripple linear decks (standstill/oath/tendrils).  I found duress as good as seize in many cases because I take a wallop from Bobs and fetches and vamp and crypt sometimes.  Adding in -2 for each duress effect can sometimes kill me.  Duress hits everything I want to hit except golem/snapcaster/trygon/triskelion/Bob (the only 5 critters I care about).  I can liquimetal/kill any of those and lavamancer/darkblast take care of the smaller ones, while charm/spree handle the golem, and assassin/trapper handle any of them (none handle triskelion, but it's a rare play and greeves can help proactively played).

The trick is to maintain control from major threats with the liquimetal combo, duress/extirpate, and controlling critters until you can eradicate their mana and turn weenies into beaters with SoFI, or swarm with beaters over time.  All the anti-artifact effects + 4 fetch/7 basics really make me not care much about shops.

The deck may have some problems with some decks - that I have not yet faced.  There may be some spells that really help certain matchups.

Of the SB I have chosen thus far, darkblast and sword are there to help more vs blue/black weenie control and those plus perish help vs Fish.  Ali from Cairo is a tricky experiment (was even better with 2 greeves).  He can basically become equipped to make me invincible from decks that can't make me lose life.  It may just be more cute than good though.  Vandal can be a monster vs shops or decks with permanents but light on critters - but he's too weak to maindeck until I know the opponent is on stax or critterless control.  Heretics add to the liquimetal combo and are great vs shops or any artifact win in general (BSC/vault/key).  Cages are obvious, and the extirpate is additional vs the linear decks.

So, what are some problem matchups you can see and what are the best SB cards to handle it?  Some maindeck slots and SB slots are open for exchange, and the 2 open SB slots need filling.  Thoughts?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

instead of tapper and assasin, I'd play more heretic and liquimetal coating

[TheWhiteDragon]

instead of tapper and assasin, I'd play more heretic and liquimetal coating

I'm already maxed out on coatings...heretic has been too good to cut altogether, but he's been underwhelming and costly against non-shop decks without a coating in play.  With coating, he's money - but assassin can single handedly stall fish and trapper can make assassin work or shut down a tarmgoyf/golem/emakrul/BSC all day long.  He's also cheaper and human - which means I can stop blue's tinker play without fear of counters via cavern of souls.

If I did add 2 heretic main and cut assassin/trapper, that's 4 sb slots that would need filling (beyond what still could get cut).  What do you see as the "hypothetically" worst matchups and what are the best sb cards for said matches.

*storm seems scary on paper, but i beat a gush/bond tendrils deck again today by extirpating his gushes and landing a cage.  Eventually my critters formed a defensive wall and overwhelmed his counters and win cons.

[psyburat]

What has your metagame looked like recently?  I recommend filling every empty sideboard slot with Dredge hate in a vacuum, they are always more prepared than they're given credit for.

[TheWhiteDragon]

My metagame is everything honestly.  I see golden gun oath, gushbond tendrils (though warrens makes me consider ratchet bomb again), drain tendrils, fatestitcher dredge, red stax, aggro shops, U/R standstill, RUG delver, tinker/tezz, noble fish, and BUG fish mostly.  Occassionally a random white weenie or goblins or whatever trying to crack into vintage.  No dragon or reanimator for the most part.

Against dredge I have 2 rakdos charm, 1 cage, 1 extirpate, and 1 surgical extraction main (along with 4 Magus of Moon and 4 liquimetal/shaman to eat bazaars - while slower, a lotus or mana crypt makes this happen turn 1 - and any mox or sol ring allows it to happen turn 2).  SB I have 3 more cages and an extra extirpate.  Maybe I need more, but it hasn't been so terribly tough.  Yixlid jailer is an option here, as is planar void or rav trap.  I think 4 leyline would be overkill with everything else...then I'm running 13 grave hate cards not counting MoM or liqui-shaman.

Vs gush decks, I found ripping the gush with extirpate was best to stalling them.  It stops their storm, mana boost, card draw all in one.  Fastbond is pretty asstastic without gush.  Also if I can duress a tendrils and extirpate that, it's pretty much gg too. 

Fish (RUG, BUG, Noble) is too varied to kill with extirpate tricks, but the ratchet bombs and pyroclasms wipe my board too - so that's a no go.  That's where I've been leaning on darkblast + lavamancer + assassin + trapper to hold things in check until I can liquimetal/destroy their critters.  Null rod and vial are small concerns, but stony silence can be a terrible pain.  Tweaking the deck for 1 fringe card though seems bad.  R/B doesn't have much to deal with enchantments either.  In such a case, I just have to work with my 4 anti-critter critters or hope a SoFI is attached before stony hits.  If given the chance, I duress/extirpate stony and can then handle anything else.  Sometimes they are really quick though with multiple exalteds, so I could use answers.  I have perish in the sb, but more ideas are welcome.  I tried bonfire of the damned - but it was too random to miracle, and expensive otherwise (but I guess 5 mana isn't TERRIBLE).

Vs shops, I feel pretty well off, but there are aggro versions that can just drop lodestone, then sphere, then tangle, then lodestone again...and I'm dead.  However, I think anything not called dredge or running FoW will face the same challenge.  If a crapload of artifact hate and 4/7 fetch/basic lands can't allow me to cast a single spell, then that's a game no deck beside aforementioned dredge/FoW are going to win.  When they don't go perfect hand on me, I can slow them down and get tangle parity out of a shaman and just own them with the shaman/welder combo.  lavamancer + darkblast mean welder has no shot at sticking around long.  A fast MoM can also help slow them down enough to get a foothold.

Against standstill, extirpating the standstill hasn't been terrible.  It basically stops their ability to keep card advantage against my Bobs/SoFI.  SoFI is also excellent since they have snapcaster, jace, fire/ice, bolt as their main ways to handle my guys.

Oath falls into the same boat as aggro shops.  They can just go busted and win (or effectively shut me out) by turn 2.  Emakrul is a bitch to stop since even after liquimetaling him, rakdos and spree can''t touch him.  I basically have to tap him with trapper - and if he gets hasted, I'm really in trouble.  If the game goes longer, I can liquimetal/heretic, but that's a rarity.  My best lines of play are dropping cage or preventing the oath from coming out with MoM jacking up their green mana or duress/extirpating oath.  When they go mox, orchard, oath - nothing short of FoW really does it.  If they don't drop orchard, I can liquimetal and replicate shattering spree (to dodge counters) or rakdos to kill it.  But this is a tough battle since their critter is nigh unstoppable and orchard/oath is just damn fast.  Maybe I can use help here.  Even SB with 4 cage and 3 extirpate effects, they just pitch dragon breath and S&T the monster in for the win anyway.  That's a tough nut to crack no matter what hate I bring in.

Caverns, cage, welder, etc. really help me in the tinker/tezz matchup.  Not sure I need much more there.

So that's a bit more info on my meta and my strategies.

[xouman]

I was thinking of a VERY similar list just yesterday. There were two *key* cards missing in this list: faithless looting and unearth. But I'm not sure if this deck is better at BR or monoRed, because apart from confidant all the good cards are red. I already have played it in a 50 people tournament, I was 3-1 but went 3-3. Also top8ed in a 30 people event.

The first turn you want to play a welder, not a shaman. This is because tinker robot and shaman are a real pain, and I also play 4 COTV (usually at 0 and 2, I played no confidants). The best opener is with a magus of the moon (this is because I play SSG when I play in a non-proxy event), then welder. If not, faithless looting is card disadvantage, but you search 2 more cards and discard *unneeded cards*. Also discard liquidmetal if a chalice is at 2, to recover it with welder. Shaman is nice, but without counterspells it often cames too late because opponent already has casted the good cards.

I have made plays as:

T1-welder
T1-my opponent plays orchard-mox-oath
T2-liquimetal
T2-he activates oath. When the big guy appears, activate liquidmetal on it and weld it for a mox in the grave.
T3-I would have welded the oath, but I couldn't because big guy was griselband and my opponent won with 14 fresh cards :p

With gorilla shaman you can't answer to tinker, destroying oath demands 5 mana with coating and isn't effective until turn 3 to kill 1 land (great in the long run, but very soft for the first turns). There is one card I'm testing in this deck: Mycosynth lattice. For 6, all permanents are artifacts, and lands generate all types mana. This second ability is stupid with magus, but it allows shaman to kill all lands at once. While 6 mana is too much, i discard it with looting and weld it into play. Not an usual movement, but awesome when you do it.

While confidant is massive, you can't play ancient tomb reliabily, neither wastelands (I like to play wastelands to complement this strategy). If playing black, unearth allows to re-play a countered/killed creature (any, in fact) or just cycle it in case you have anything in the grave or the hand (pretty unusual).


I'm still tunning my list though.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Welder is a very strong play, but shaman is not to be underestimated.  His big attribute is his ability to eat moxen and lands which is also big in evening the effect of tangle wire.  He also eats voltaic key easily.  Welder is better defense vs tinker/blightsteel, but shaman is better in a general sense without even needing liquimetal in play.  The lightning greeves also let me answer tinker with a welder even faster.

Confidant is really just too good not to play.  Caverns help me fight counters naming human - which gets through Magus AND Confidant.  Without confidant, you're in total topdeck mode which is bad vs blue decks.  Also, it gives me vamp/DT which is excellent for getting my singleton answers or setting up a combo.  Duress can really help force through a confidant or disrupt their first turn bomb, and can be just great when comboed turn 1 with surgical extraction or extirpate.  It can just ruin oath's first turn insanity.  Often, it is not fast enough to use permanent tricks to fight oath, but a turn 1 duress can stop the turn 1 mox, orchard, oath play (if they don't ALSO have the misstep/FoW in hand - I can't stop God hands).  Lastly is rakdos charm - it is an instant speed combo with liquimetal and is awesome utility to fight dredge, shops, yawgwill, snapcaster.

Overall, the inclusion with black adds so much more utility and vesatility that it's hard to not play it.  The singleton darkblast, graf cage, etc., would not be possible to pull off without tutors, and they have won me games.  Yawg will is unneccesary since I can't go "broken", but the rest black has to offer is very solid.

[xouman]

I cannot negate the power of black. I already said that confidant is the best reason to play it since I haven't found a reliable card drawing source for red (best options are solemn simulacrum, sofi and maybe ichor wellspring, but I have little experience with them). duress/tgz is great against blue and specially oath, but welder is much better against mud. Duress is probably better on T1, but each turn welder gets better.

shaman is great sweeping moxen and a winner with liquimetal in play. but it does not kill creatures, demands a lot of mana to kill some artifacts/permanents (with coating) and you don't want more than one in play.

I played greaves, but haven't properly tested them. in my little experience they have been unneeded or win more. I played 1 copy with the same premise, instant welder/heretic, or just protecting them (specially welder). But often you would play a hoser instead greaves. I'll test them more, but up to now I'm a bit disappointed. sofi has also been under what i expected. I'm not confortable playing them with less than 20 creatures, moreover when some are welders or other non-attacking creatures.

nevertheless I'll look for your results with the deck. surely you will have some better match-ups and I'll learn from them

[TheWhiteDragon]

I cannot negate the power of black. I already said that confidant is the best reason to play it since I haven't found a reliable card drawing source for red (best options are solemn simulacrum, sofi and maybe ichor wellspring, but I have little experience with them). duress/tgz is great against blue and specially oath, but welder is much better against mud. Duress is probably better on T1, but each turn welder gets better.

shaman is great sweeping moxen and a winner with liquimetal in play. but it does not kill creatures, demands a lot of mana to kill some artifacts/permanents (with coating) and you don't want more than one in play.

I played greaves, but haven't properly tested them. in my little experience they have been unneeded or win more. I played 1 copy with the same premise, instant welder/heretic, or just protecting them (specially welder). But often you would play a hoser instead greaves. I'll test them more, but up to now I'm a bit disappointed. sofi has also been under what i expected. I'm not confortable playing them with less than 20 creatures, moreover when some are welders or other non-attacking creatures.

nevertheless I'll look for your results with the deck. surely you will have some better match-ups and I'll learn from them

Against bazaar decks, this is true about welder, but that depends against what your opponent has in the grave.  If he is just dropping golem, sphere, tangle, etc., you need shaman to make welder work.  Also, with 2 spree/2 charm, 1 heretic, I have other artifact answers. Assassin, darkblast, and trapper REALLY take out critters unconditionally...moreso than welder.  The deck plays fine vs shops, so cutting overall versatility to strengthen an already strong matchup isn't great.

[xouman]

while i loved assassin and really see it playable in some decks, BB in a moon deck is tricky. besides it's not an answer to tinker or batterskull, quite alive here.

if my mud opponent has an artifact in the grave (other than revoker, battlesphere or wurmcoil), I'm happy to have a welder. against 2 golems, you can swicth them to avoid damage. And playing spree and rakdos charm is one more reason to prefer welder :p

how does this deck perform against aggro? I have had problems in the past, usually having smaller critters and much less removal.

[TheWhiteDragon]

while i loved assassin and really see it playable in some decks, BB in a moon deck is tricky. besides it's not an answer to tinker or batterskull, quite alive here.

if my mud opponent has an artifact in the grave (other than revoker, battlesphere or wurmcoil), I'm happy to have a welder. against 2 golems, you can swicth them to avoid damage. And playing spree and rakdos charm is one more reason to prefer welder :p

how does this deck perform against aggro? I have had problems in the past, usually having smaller critters and much less removal.

The assassin is there precisely against critter decks, namely fish.  The trapper is a cheap answer to tinker and emakrul that does not depend on liquimetal.  That was the main reason for their inclusion.  With 4 swamps, badlands, and 4 caverns (as well as jet and lotus) BB has not been very hard to attain.  Mana costs have rarely been an issue, even with MoM.  The functionality of the card is more the concern.  Trapper and assassin also "kill" a golem where welder sometimes cannot independent of whatever other spells I can land.

The additional welder seems to be suggested more to help my mud match - but that is a match I typically win.  The deck is built to defeat artifacts, so shop and batterskull should not be issues at all.  Tinker is a bigger issue, but a trapper can be as effective as a welder without needing them to have an artifact in their yard (like when tinkering off a yawg will).

[xouman]

You have your points, and really make sense. Caverns look solid, but I still don't know if it's a good idea to leave wastelands out in a deck already destroying moxen and dealing with non-basic lands.

One more recommendation: Fortune Thief over ali from cairo. being a 2/2 could be relevant and the surprise factor is not negligible the first time you play it

[TheWhiteDragon]

You have your points, and really make sense. Caverns look solid, but I still don't know if it's a good idea to leave wastelands out in a deck already destroying moxen and dealing with non-basic lands.

One more recommendation: Fortune Thief over ali from cairo. being a 2/2 could be relevant and the surprise factor is not negligible the first time you play it

I tried strip and wastes in the deck, but MoM was just far more effective.  Wastes actually never count to my mana since I want to use their strip effect ASAP.  That means I couldn't get away with 21 mana sources.  16 mana + 5 strip is just not good.  The caverns are unholy good.  Rainbow mana for the majority of my critters, uncounterability, and using their effect doesn't bury them like a wasteland.  MoM also plays out poorly with wastes IMHO.  Their lands become basics and the wastes are just mountains.  Strip was okay because it killed a fast bazaar/shop/LoA...but ultimately I wanted a better hoser like cage as my singleton instead of a free sinkhole. Also remember that liquimetal + shaman IS recurrable strip mine that costs 1 mana instead of 1 card.

I thought of and tried fortune thief.  Considering MoM makes things red and cavern also makes red, the 2RR is usually no more difficult than 4R, but the 1 turn quicker/1 mana cheaper has made a difference vs MUD amongst other decks.  Ali/thief are cards you don't want to cast without cavern in some cases and you want the effect immediately.  Again, it may be more cute than good.  When it worked, the games were pretty much in hand anyway.

[Lurker101]

This is a cool list. What do you think about Jaya Ballard, Task Mage? She only costs   , it's versatile and has two very relevant abilities. She also acts as a discard outlet for Welder/Lavamancer. Another red card that I think is interesting is Sowing Salt. For  you exile target non-basic land on the battlefield and then exile all copies from your opponents Graveyard, hand, and library. It does what liquimetal + Shaman + Extirpate on a nonbasic does but it's all in one card. The mana cost might be too high though.

[xouman]

I play 6-7 moon effects + 5 strips. Albeit strips are mountains under MoM or blood moon, if I get Mom countered or bolted wasteland is great negating secondary colours (and sometimes even primary). Yes, caverns and wastes are not well paired. And yes again, with caverns ali would be probably better than fortune thief (but I usually don't pay 4R, but 3+RR on another turn)

I played Jaya ballard for months, but only on unpowered versions. This is because sometimes having RR, even in monored, is tricky. She is great against fish decks, but against jace decks it's strange... If you have a jaya in play and nothing around, you want to attack. So if opponent plays jace you can't kill it right away, and he can bounce and discard. But having the jaya untapped every turn is a real waste of resources for this kind of deck.

Sowing salt is worse than Boil imho. Up to date I haven't properly tested boil, but could be solid.

Here are a couple of tops with MoM decks, one with coating and one without it. Both monored, so White dragon's deck is quite different with lots of new possibilities.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8699&iddeck=63484
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8226&iddeck=59984

[Lurker101]

I

Sowing salt is worse than Boil imho. Up to date I haven't properly tested boil, but could be solid.

I was thinking Sowing Salt would be used most often to hit Bazaars/Workshops so it's a little different than Boil which would be a lot better against Blue decks but not so much against Shops/Dredge. I do think Boil is probably overall a better card for the SB though.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I play 6-7 moon effects + 5 strips. Albeit strips are mountains under MoM or blood moon, if I get Mom countered or bolted wasteland is great negating secondary colours (and sometimes even primary). Yes, caverns and wastes are not well paired. And yes again, with caverns ali would be probably better than fortune thief (but I usually don't pay 4R, but 3+RR on another turn)

I played Jaya ballard for months, but only on unpowered versions. This is because sometimes having RR, even in monored, is tricky. She is great against fish decks, but against jace decks it's strange... If you have a jaya in play and nothing around, you want to attack. So if opponent plays jace you can't kill it right away, and he can bounce and discard. But having the jaya untapped every turn is a real waste of resources for this kind of deck.

Sowing salt is worse than Boil imho. Up to date I haven't properly tested boil, but could be solid.

Here are a couple of tops with MoM decks, one with coating and one without it. Both monored, so White dragon's deck is quite different with lots of new possibilities.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8699&iddeck=63484
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8226&iddeck=59984

So looking at those two lists, they are going in quite different directions than mine on a couple notes.  Monocolor makes an obvious difference, but I think it loses power by doing so.  Without Vamp/DT, it is forced to run 6 blood moon effects.  It also can't use duress/cavern to push a moon through counters.  It also has almost 0 critter answers except a singleton (1st list) lightning bolt that it can't even fetch and a slow jaya.  Lodestones and the direction of the deck are somewhat counter too.  You can't workshop out the golem, yet golem makes 80% of spells cost +1 when it is in play.  That list does have liquimetal/shaman, but only 3 of each which lessens its mana denial component, and no "spell" artifact destruction, which makes null rod strong against it and pithing needle/revoker as well.  Also, against dredge it has virtually no way to attack.  It can hit bazaar, but not the grave...cage and rakdos help here.  Against tinker, it has metamorph, but that's 4 mana and no way to make sure it comes through uncountered (as well as vulnerable to the opponent's hurkyll's).  It also has 3 welder to fight tinker, which are good, but no caverns to push those through misstep/FoW.  It looks "bigger" in the aggro aspect, but more disruptable and random on draws.

The next list really looks much less like mine.  It has no liquimetals along with being monored and just has a totally different approach, with the exception of having anti-artifact utility critters.

These two decks seem like they overload on fast mana with SSG and off-color moxen to power out a fast moon effect, hoping that will seal the deal.  If that effect gets countered though, you are stuck on off-colored or RFGed mana and down a bunch of cards with no other play.  MoM/Moon are powerful effects, but not a game win in itself.  I try to abuse MoM's power in an uncounterable way, but its effect is cumulative to a winning strategy - not a crux of the deck.  If I don't drop a MoM, I can still easily win and disrupt in other ways while setting up my offense/defense.  These 2 lists seem to depend on moon landing (or having substantial effect), otherwise it is slow fat aggro that will have a tough time matching strong strategies like hasty oath, tinker/walk, dredge, etc.

I think in general, monored loses the versatility and speed that black can add.  The edge you lose vs nonbasics, you gain vs counters by using cavern.  Another MAJOR thing is chalice at 1.  Without cavern, chalice @1 shuts out welder and shaman - and then the deck can be extremely slow since you lose your low curve spells and your liquimetal combo to boot.  With a cavern, chalice at any number is no threat.  I tried adding chalice myself since I can play through them...but found them tough to play blind correctly.  Also, while cavern gets through chalice @1, if cavern isn't in hand, I never wanted to lock myself off 1cc - and holding chalice is really weak since you want to stop your opponent's cheap spells with it early.  Duress just had more bang for the buck there.

While lavamancer serves the jaya role in these decks, darkblast, trapper, and assassin add a versatile spread of ways to fight creatures.  The tutors and draw also allow me to run less copies and more specialized effects than the "deal 3 damage" options red has.

Sowing Salt I don't think is great only because it is useless after MoM/Moon hits the table, and 2RR is WAY too slow to disrupt shop/bazaar/orchard.  Strip Mine + extraction would be much better, even while costing 1 extra card.  Boil is fine vs islands...but with duress/extirpate/SoFI/MoM/Bob/cavern, blue is really not so bad.  I can usually handle Jace, snapcaster, counters very well with the B/R build.

I'm not sure if the monored approach is even comparable since the gameplan seems to be so different.  While employing some similar cards and even the liquimetal combo, the overall approach and strengths/weaknesses of the deck are very different.

What options would potentially be better for the B/R version.  Especially in sb.  Could anything be replaced for a stronger approach in the main or sb?

[xouman]

Just a few off-topic responses before addressing to the main point.
No MWS for lodestone, but 4 ancient tombs, sol ring, crypt and 4 SSG/6 lotus+moxen. While it makes the rest of the deck +1 mana, I still have more mana. And with a golem in play i don't really need to play anything else. the real deal is having a welder in play and weld in destroyed/countered golems.
Yes, my lists are MUCH more sensible to countespells than your B/R list. I rely on having more menaces even if undefended. There is random on draws, and that's because I try to play x3 or x4 (even when they are often not good in multiples). And faithless looting helps filtering too! Looting also helps finding coating, and welder recovering it when destroyed/countered.
Against critters Lodestone+welder is nice, and metamorph helps too. Besides coating+viashino it's great.
It's true that list is particulary sensible to COTV at 1, but there are 11 spells at CC1, I still have lots of creatures in CC3 and CC4 curve. Viashino kills it and welders/shamans played before cotv kill it too. BTW, it was mud what won me in the top8 :p
Summarizing, those decks rely on fast MoM or golem, helped by viashino+welder artifact hosing, chalice at 0 or 2 (1 depending on opponent deck) and few utilities. Coating + shaman + welder + Viashino it's another plan, but i found it not really synergistic. Your deck has a key advantage: is far less sensible to artifact hate.

Finally, returning to your deck. I already suggested unearth to recover creatures, but with caverns they'll be rarely in the grave. If coating is really needed, you can try mycosynth lattice (too expensive and a pain with confidant, but inmune to rod/stony) or thran foundry (only for creatures, but evades revoker on coating and you can deal extra damage). there is also a myr that changes lands into artifacts, but it costs 3, a bit slow.
Against creatures you have bolts and pyrokinesis. It's not hard to get golem+revoker, snapcaster+confidant, and some critters. Having it countered hurts, though.
Against combo you would probably need something. What about Thorns in the side? open with duress and follow with thorn, gaining tempo to assembly liquidmetal engine.

[vaughnbros]

Here's a list I played a few months ago in which I went 6-5 with in the two tournaments I played in:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
4 Badlands
1 Strip Mine
4 Goblin Welder
1 Mountain
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Wasteland
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Grafdigger's Cage

SB: 4 Dismember
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Gorilla Shaman

I lost 2 matches to RUG delver, 2 matches to workshops, and 1 match to doomsday.  I can't remember exactly what I beat.  What I do remember is having a lot of issues with the card advantage and flying creatures from RUG, the bomb creatures like wurmcoil and battlesphere from shops, and the speed of doomsday.  The list itself was extremely consistent probably the most consistent list I have ever played due to all the 4 ofs and faithless looting bob drawing what I need. 

I think both of our lists are pretty similar in that they are both BR Control decks essentially.  Your deck runs a lot of singletons and try to be a lot cuter with surgicals and liquid metal coating.  Do you suffer from any consistency problems with all those singletons?  It seems like you should be able to trim down them down and get a more reliable draw.  How good is a liquid metal coating without gorilla shaman?  I'm not sure it really seems worth it to run a 4 of that's only good as a combo piece.  Also duress really is just worse than thoughtseize too not being able to grab goyfs, bobs and lodestones sucks.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Here's a list I played a few months ago in which I went 6-5 with in the two tournaments I played in:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
4 Badlands
1 Strip Mine
4 Goblin Welder
1 Mountain
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Wasteland
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Grafdigger's Cage

SB: 4 Dismember
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Gorilla Shaman

I lost 2 matches to RUG delver, 2 matches to workshops, and 1 match to doomsday.  I can't remember exactly what I beat.  What I do remember is having a lot of issues with the card advantage and flying creatures from RUG, the bomb creatures like wurmcoil and battlesphere from shops, and the speed of doomsday.  The list itself was extremely consistent probably the most consistent list I have ever played due to all the 4 ofs and faithless looting bob drawing what I need.  

I think both of our lists are pretty similar in that they are both BR Control decks essentially.  Your deck runs a lot of singletons and try to be a lot cuter with surgicals and liquid metal coating.  Do you suffer from any consistency problems with all those singletons?  It seems like you should be able to trim down them down and get a more reliable draw.  How good is a liquid metal coating without gorilla shaman?  I'm not sure it really seems worth it to run a 4 of that's only good as a combo piece.  Also duress really is just worse than thoughtseize too not being able to grab goyfs, bobs and lodestones sucks.

Seize really does have its strenghts, but the -2 can be very big over time with Bobs.  Sometimes the cumulative -2s can help tendrils do its job against me. Also, dodging misdirection isn't irrelevant.  I flipflop back and forth on which is better.  I like the idea of revoker and the synergy with welder.  I may try that.  Liquimetal has been very good.  I cut down to 2 at one point, but quickly came back to 4.  The reason is that I have heretic and 2 spree/2 rakdos as well.  That means I have vindicates vs any permanent basically.  Welder is neat but is never a vindicate like spree can be.  I may also consider an artifact fatty like battlesphere, but the SoFIs are nice with so many weenies.  The extirpate effects are not just cute.  They cripple dredge and counters and oath with an early duress.  Even spreeing a lodestone can lead me to rip all of them out with extraction.  I think my effects that directly blow up an artifact make me get much more value from liquimetal than just welder/shaman.  I also try to avoid grave dependency, so I dislike looting.  SoFI is also card draw as well as helping vs RUG or any bolt/bounce effects.

[xouman]

That BR list looks great! I agree looting is needed because some cards in multiples suck. Besides it fuels welder, but that's not the main task imho. I would surely fit in at least 3 null rod (if not 4) because of the low dependancy on artifacts.

Card advantage is my main concern with this deck (even more for me, playing without confidants). While magus and COTV annuls a good bunch of opponent cards, a confidant/jace is a real pain. That's why I often play lightnings/jayas, and the main reason to play revokers. And I'd try sulfur elemental due to this same reason, it would instablock a confidant, or attack an undefended jace playing it at your EOT. And of course it would help killing katakis and mindcensors or instablocking salvagers..

On the other side, great creatures are greatly improved with metamorph. And I can recur it with welder, so even facing batterskull I have won games quite hard otherwise. Golem is also important against medium sized creatures. Viashino shaman is great against MUD (no surprise), key against batterskull and decent against hands filled with moxen, confidants/snapcasters, factories... I have lost games because of having 2 viashinos against no artifacts (typically bomberman several months ago, gushbond,, dredge) but nowadays in a field with 30% of people playing mud, 2/3 viashino are ok and always can be dispatches with looting for more quality.

I'm surprised to see 4 welders and so little maindeck artifacts. Also 4 gorilla in the side (when do you side them in???) and 4 dismembers, this sounds like a bit suicide along with confidants and tgz (well, I can't really talk since I already play 4 tombs and crypt).

Do you have found any card similar to faithless looting? I can think of goblin tutor and burning inquiry, but they are both random. Goblin is not card disadvantage and is hard to lose quality, but it's not the card you want to play in the 3 first turns. Burning inquiry can be even bad if opponent holds dead cards and find new good cards (or good if you play it on first tursn and he loses key cards or spoils his manabase). Dangerous wager is quite circunstancial (bad for first 5 turns or more) and wild guess is unfortunately bad, 2x1 if countered. Besides they are both hit by COTV at 2, a very typical play.

SOFI gets time and resources and it's dependant on creatures (even I'd like to play one), simulacrum feels a bit pricey and just a slow resource in a hate deck. ichor wellspring it's more of the same, mask of memory is slow to make an impact and needs lots of attacking creatures in the deck. i use to play memory jar if playing power, lots of times it's 4x1 but sometimes the opponent gets more profit than you (I lost one match because I didn't found any land, and my opponent got a fow, 2xswords, and a creature for his's vial...)

Another question: is koth worth trying? it's first ability kills jaces and helps racing (not really important in this deck), second is quite useless if not under memory jar) and third is cool but not instawin. Tibalt is not a card to be dismissed imho, can be a great filter with a bit of luck, can kill planeswalkers with second ability and third ability now is better than anytime in vintage. Sharkan the mad pricey but solid with so little mana costs.

Any other card that can be taken into consideration?

[vaughnbros]

@whitedragon it's funny you pick out revoker because I'd say he's probably the worst card in the list.  He's rarely impactful on a game and when he is he is very easy to kill due to the 1 toughness and being an artifact.

My life total was usually less relevant than not being able to grab cards like goyf and lodestone.  I don't know what decks really gain a huge advantage from misdirected thoughtseize I still get to pick the card which just makes it a 2 for 2.

I don't think I'd ever want to run so many cards that are completely dead in so many match ups.  Artifact hate cards and surgicals are dead in about 50% of matches.  Plays like duress into surgical are extremely rare unless you are running a lot of each and honestly I'd usually rather be killing a restricted card with my duress against blue.

Liquid metal coating + gorilla shaman combo is one that I like though from your build.

@Xouman I haven't been a fan of null rod since Tezz and storm pretty much completely stopped being played.  If the unrestriction of burning wish shifts things then I would consider rod but for now it's too narrow.

Card advantage in this build usually isn't too much of an issue. Its running liliana, bob, and faithless to provide its own card advantage.  Thoughtseize and lightning bolts get rid of opposing jaces and bobs.  Magus stops gush.  Cage stops will and snapcaster.  The problem with rug delver is they run main deck bolts which kill magus and main deck grudges which blow up cage letting them use gush and snapcasters again.

Metamorph wasn't particularly good in my list since it auto deals damage to me, is a 4 drop for bob, and there's rarely something relevant on my side for me to copy.

Extra welders get pitched to faithless.  They stop tinker.  Combo with cage to stomp on shops.  And then they would recur revokers against fish.  It's a pretty amazing card even without big welding targets of my own.  Mox monkeys were in the board because their only amazing match ups were against vault/key and shops otherwise they were underwhelming.  Any deck with lots of artifact mana they come in.  Dismember is usually cast for its full cost it's just nice to have to option of reducing CC.  You could probably cut them for doom blades if you'd want.

Nothing really compares to faithless.  It only costs 1 and I can recur it later.

I never really considered any equipment or simalcrum.  They could be playable although they are pretty big mana investments.

Koth is bad against creature decks and can be rather underwhelming against other decks for the 4 mana investment.  On top of that strip effects can render him useless.  Not a big fan.  Sarkhans mana cost makes him completely unplayable.  I'd rather play a dragon or demon than these 2.

There are a lot of other options.  This is a deck that NEEDs to metagame in order to be effective.  So what cards are playable depends on your meta.  I probably would wait for the dust to settle on burning wish and RTR before trying this list.  Deathrite shaman could be a good addition from those sets though.

[TheWhiteDragon]

@whitedragon it's funny you pick out revoker because I'd say he's probably the worst card in the list.  He's rarely impactful on a game and when he is he is very easy to kill due to the 1 toughness and being an artifact.

I was thinking as a way to shut off moxen to aide in MoM's mana denial as well as fighting random effects - but it may be unnecessary.

My life total was usually less relevant than not being able to grab cards like goyf and lodestone.  I don't know what decks really gain a huge advantage from misdirected thoughtseize I still get to pick the card which just makes it a 2 for 2.

As I said, I go back and forth on this one.  They're both good in their own way.  With crypt, fetches, vamp, extraction, and bobs, life does become relevant at times.  Vs shops, I can usually handle their critters on the board so I don't try to in hand.  Vs decks like landstill, seize is basically a -2 life duress.  It's a toss-up.

I don't think I'd ever want to run so many cards that are completely dead in so many match ups.  Artifact hate cards and surgicals are dead in about 50% of matches.  Plays like duress into surgical are extremely rare unless you are running a lot of each and honestly I'd usually rather be killing a restricted card with my duress against blue.

I have to disagree heartily on this one for two reasons.  Extirpate/extraction is never dead.  It is sometimes not backbreaking, but it is rarely a total blank.  Hitting wastelands against crucible, a fatty that welder wants to bring back in, bridges vs dredge, FoW (or any counter), a durressed jace or oath, snapcaster targets, etc.  Even extacting bobs after killing 1 is not terrible.  The knowledge of deck and hand is also valuable through the course of a match.  The shuffle effect is good too.  I've messed up opposing vamp tutors for a bomb by yanking a fetchland just to counter the tutor and get a peak at their hand while hurting their potential manabase.  The artifact cards are even less dead. Charm is REALLY versatile at fighting grave strategies OR artifacts.  Spree is a replicatable way to fight through the biggest contender (shops) and any artifacts including time vault, revoker, null rod, and even moxen (which almost all decks play).  Dropping a MoM and killing their on-color mox is HUGE.  Even blasting their first turn sol ring can be very big since their hand is often kept on the assumption they'll have that mana.  Hitting crucible vs standstill is killer.  Hitting vial in fish is big.  I can think of no matchup besides dredge where the artifact hate is not useful (most of the time) or at least a fair 1 for 1 trade (like spree to kill off color mox).

Liquid metal coating + gorilla shaman combo is one that I like though from your build.

This is an even bigger point for where the artifact hate is not dead.  It's not just a liquimetal + shaman combo (though eating the lands is a big tactic), it's a liquimetal + shaman/welder/heretic/spree/rakdos deck.  I can liquimetal an oath, jace, welder, tarmgoyf, etc., and kill it for R with spree (toss in a few replicates to make it uncounterable even) or rakdos or heretic.  Heretic + liquimetal means I have vindicate on a stick.  The liquimetals are HUGE in the deck because it makes ANYTHING that would appear to be resistant to artifact hate now vulnerable too it.  Playing trygon/jace/bazaar/oath?  I liquimetal and blow it up.  That's the synergy - not just shaman/liquimetal.  The cards that you see as dead and want to filter with looting are the cards I want in hand so I can use on their own or with a liquimetal.  A timevault on it's own is dead, but is awesome in a combo, and not a "dead" card I want to filter away.  Grave/artifact hate is rarely dead - but can be even better with liquimetal.

@Xouman I haven't been a fan of null rod since Tezz and storm pretty much completely stopped being played.  If the unrestriction of burning wish shifts things then I would consider rod but for now it's too narrow.

This is a difference of deck approach, but null rod is not dead.  MOST decks run the full suite of acceleration mana or other activated artifacts - so in the right build, null rod is still strong.

Card advantage in this build usually isn't too much of an issue. Its running liliana, bob, and faithless to provide its own card advantage.  Thoughtseize and lightning bolts get rid of opposing jaces and bobs.  Magus stops gush.  Cage stops will and snapcaster.  The problem with rug delver is they run main deck bolts which kill magus and main deck grudges which blow up cage letting them use gush and snapcasters again.

Liliana isn't CA.  You both lose cards, and sitting on an empty hand is not great.  It's card parity minus the card of Liliana herself.  Looting is also not really CA.  It's -1 CA when cast, then +0 when flashed back (which you can't do vs grave hate or when playing cage).  It may "filter" dead cards, but when you add something like liquimetal, you get strong combos out of those "dead" cards in hand.  There aren't many cards I don't won't to cast as soon as I draw unless I'm holding them as an answer in the future (spree waiting for a target/duress when opponent has no hand).  I think the lack of singletons makes more consistent draws, but it also makes more hands of 3-4 of the same effect that you don't need.  The lack of a hate enabler like liquimetal also contributes to dead cards.  In such a case, looting has value.  It seems (especially with the golem/welder deck) that the approach is more like a welder/bazaar deck without the bazaar.  It uses liliana and looting instead.  My approach is totally different since I fear grave hate/artifact hate which every deck loads in the sb.  My welders are also there mainly to fight tinker, abuse with liquimetal, and to recover my killed artifacts - not so much to cheat in fatties.

Metamorph wasn't particularly good in my list since it auto deals damage to me, is a 4 drop for bob, and there's rarely something relevant on my side for me to copy.

Agreed.  A flipped metamorph on bob is -6 life to use and is only good at copying the opponent's stuff.  Not great at all.

Extra welders get pitched to faithless.  They stop tinker.  Combo with cage to stomp on shops.  And then they would recur revokers against fish.  It's a pretty amazing card even without big welding targets of my own.  Mox monkeys were in the board because their only amazing match ups were against vault/key and shops otherwise they were underwhelming.  Any deck with lots of artifact mana they come in.  Dismember is usually cast for its full cost it's just nice to have to option of reducing CC.  You could probably cut them for doom blades if you'd want.

While welder combos with cage, looting does not.  Welder also doesn't combo with cage and golem in the dirt.  You need to bury a mox or something first, then weld out cage, then weld in golem (the cage/golem won't swap and negates welder's effect except for burying cage). I think monkeys are best main especially with their combo with welder (kill a mox, swap out a golem, kill the mox again). Dismember is fine, as is bolt - but I found recurrable critter killing better in the longrun.  Darkblast, assassin, lavamancer, and trapper (in effect at least), while maybe not the best options are reuseable and useful.  They are also uncounterable with cavern (or by dredging).  I can run fewer answers because they tend to be less of a 1-for-1 and I can tutor for the most appropriate answer for the board state.  Trapper is good vs emakrul/BSC, assassin vs all fish/golems, lavamancer vs RUB or noble fish, and darkblast vs bob/snap.  Bolt is only good vs some of those and only for killing 1 copy. Bolt also rarely kills Jace, since the opponent gets priority and vs a red deck should always fateseal first if they can protect from critters.  I tried doom blade and it's no better than bolt in most cases.

Nothing really compares to faithless.  It only costs 1 and I can recur it later.

A different approach to gameplan - it works well for the quasi-bazaar effect if that's what the tactic is.

I never really considered any equipment or simalcrum.  They could be playable although they are pretty big mana investments.

When running 18 (as my list does) 1-2/1-2 sized creatures, SoFI makes them real threats for their bodies.  It makes every shaman a card-drawing juggernaut, and can just keep boosting critters if one weenie gets killed.  It's tough to find a balance between critters and equipment, but I find 18/3 to be a decent ratio so far.  Simulacrum just sucks.  4 mana for a 2/2 cantrip is weak, and without welder it's really bad.  I'd much rather weld in a SoFI and do some damage than weld in a simulacrum to net basic lands.

Koth is bad against creature decks and can be rather underwhelming against other decks for the 4 mana investment.  On top of that strip effects can render him useless.  Not a big fan.  Sarkhans mana cost makes him completely unplayable.  I'd rather play a dragon or demon than these 2.

Both of these are too expensive to reliably play.

There are a lot of other options.  This is a deck that NEEDs to metagame in order to be effective.  So what cards are playable depends on your meta.  I probably would wait for the dust to settle on burning wish and RTR before trying this list.  Deathrite shaman could be a good addition from those sets though.

While it's best to know a meta - cards like liquimetal make this less of a problem.  You can make your deck's hate kill ANYTHING with them, so it is less vital to change cards to suit a meta.  Besides, every deck has lands at the very least which explode nicely.

[TheWhiteDragon]

So, a few SB cards I considered that answer a few problems mentioned:

wurmcoil wurm tokens, battlesphere tokens, dredge zombies, chalices, warren tokens -> ratchet bomb.  2 colorless mana. This card is also useful at higher CCs, but blasting 0 when you have almost nothing costing 0 is nice.  Also welder recurrable.  Being fringe cases, this card is possibly best in sb and probably as a 2-of at best.

Golems, fish, snap/bobs -> Porcelain legionnaire.  2 colorless mana and welder recurrable.  Can block all day and is menacing with a SoFI.

tokens, fish, snap/bobs -> Bonfire of the Damned.  Random, but 3-5 mana sweeper vs 2/2s or smaller without hitting your own critters.  Possible to set up with vamp for miracle.

anything aggro -> more assassins.  They can be less than stellar, but they can also be a ridiculous hassle for aggro.

counters -> more blue-crushing humans via cavern/more duress effects.  Not much else that will beat counters except discard and uncounterable hosers.

storm -> pyrostatic pillar, thorn, chalice, trinisphere.  Not sure what else to do here.

[vaughnbros]

Extirpate/extraction is never dead.  It is sometimes not backbreaking, but it is rarely a total blank.  Hitting wastelands against crucible

I'm sorry but any deck that isn't tutoring or drawing or milling a ton cards extirpate and extraction are pretty much dead.  This includes pretty much all fish decks and all workshop decks, which accounts for about 50% of a normal meta.  Getting rid of 4 of in such a deck means you got rid of 3 of 50 cards of their deck.  Expected value says it would take them over 10 turns to draw that card you just got rid of.  Hitting wasteland against crucible?  Your running a 2 color deck with magus of the moon in it.  You should be laughing at wastelands.

The artifact cards are even less dead. Charm is REALLY versatile at fighting grave strategies OR artifacts.  Spree is a replicatable way to fight through the biggest contender (shops) and any artifacts including time vault, revoker, null rod, and even moxen (which almost all decks play).  Dropping a MoM and killing their on-color mox is HUGE.  Even blasting their first turn sol ring can be very big since their hand is often kept on the assumption they'll have that mana.  Hitting crucible vs standstill is killer.  Hitting vial in fish is big.  I can think of no matchup besides dredge where the artifact hate is not useful (most of the time) or at least a fair 1 for 1 trade (like spree to kill off color mox).

Your big selling point for artifact hate seems to be hitting mana sources.  I could just play revoker, gorilla shaman, chalice of the void, rachet bomb, engineered explosives, null rod, or a host of other options and get more than 1 for 1 trade on their moxen/sol ring.  Crucible again ill point to magus of the moon being in your list and that you are playing a fish deck landstill shouldn't be a hard match up.  I've never actually seen someone play vial in a vintage fish deck, but my above point applies.

Liquid metal coating + gorilla shaman combo is one that I like though from your build.

This is an even bigger point for where the artifact hate is not dead.  It's not just a liquimetal + shaman combo (though eating the lands is a big tactic), it's a liquimetal + shaman/welder/heretic/spree/rakdos deck.  I can liquimetal an oath, jace, welder, tarmgoyf, etc., and kill it for R with spree (toss in a few replicates to make it uncounterable even) or rakdos or heretic.  Heretic + liquimetal means I have vindicate on a stick.  The liquimetals are HUGE in the deck because it makes ANYTHING that would appear to be resistant to artifact hate now vulnerable too it.  Playing trygon/jace/bazaar/oath?  I liquimetal and blow it up.  That's the synergy - not just shaman/liquimetal.  The cards that you see as dead and want to filter with looting are the cards I want in hand so I can use on their own or with a liquimetal.  A timevault on it's own is dead, but is awesome in a combo, and not a "dead" card I want to filter away.  Grave/artifact hate is rarely dead - but can be even better with liquimetal.

So I'm running liquid metal coating to make the artifact hate that I shouldn't be playing more playable?  I'll pass if this is the reasoning for liquid metal.  I'd rather just run chaos warp over your artifact destruction.

@Xouman I haven't been a fan of null rod since Tezz and storm pretty much completely stopped being played.  If the unrestriction of burning wish shifts things then I would consider rod but for now it's too narrow.

This is a difference of deck approach, but null rod is not dead.  MOST decks run the full suite of acceleration mana or other activated artifacts - so in the right build, null rod is still strong.

Most decks dont run a full suite of artifact acceleration or other activated abilities.  Fish decks, landstill, dredge, and others do not run any of these.  The decks that do care about null rod most of them can just eot hurkyl's and be done with it.  There are much more versatile answers to moxen, like gorilla shaman, revoker, and ratchet bomb.

Liliana isn't CA. You both lose cards, and sitting on an empty hand is not great.  It's card parity minus the card of Liliana herself.

Please read the card.  Liliana has 2 major abilities.  1 says +1 each player discards, which is definitely CA if my hand doesnt exist or it has redundant effects or extra lands in it.  The second says -2 target player sacrifices a creature.  Once liliana gets rolling its almost impossible for most decks to recover when they have no hand and any creature they top deck is starring down an edict.

Looting is also not really CA.  It's -1 CA when cast, then +0 when flashed back (which you can't do vs grave hate or when playing cage).  It may "filter" dead cards, but when you add something like liquimetal, you get strong combos out of those "dead" cards in hand.

Yes it doesnt add cards to my hand, but it cycles lands, redundant effects, and things uncastable through my moon effect.  So adding liquid metal coating makes my extra cages, lands, and duress effects not dead?

I think the lack of singletons makes more consistent draws, but it also makes more hands of 3-4 of the same effect that you don't need. 

I don't think I'm ever in trouble of drawing 3-4 of the same effect when I only have 4 of each card in the deck.  And a single faithless can cycle all 4 cards if needed.

My approach is totally different since I fear grave hate/artifact hate which every deck loads in the sb. 

Don't you wonder why people keep those cards in their sideboard?  They aren't strong enough effects to hurt blue decks.  Most blue decks are minimally affected by artifact and graveyard hate.

My welders are also there mainly to fight tinker, abuse with liquimetal, and to recover my killed artifacts - not so much to cheat in fatties.

You're misreading me.  This is exactly how I was saying I use my welders.

While welder combos with cage, looting does not.  Welder also doesn't combo with cage and golem in the dirt.  You need to bury a mox or something first, then weld out cage, then weld in golem (the cage/golem won't swap and negates welder's effect except for burying cage). I think monkeys are best main especially with their combo with welder (kill a mox, swap out a golem, kill the mox again).

This is wrong.  Welder with an artifact creature in their graveyard and a cage in play can destroy their artifacts by tapping.  His ability tries to resolve as best as possible and that results in a destroyed artifact.  This combo is just as effective as monkey with welder the difference is that with welder cage I dont need to spend mana and I need a creature in their yard instead of a mox in yard or play.

Bolt also rarely kills Jace, since the opponent gets priority and vs a red deck should always fateseal first if they can protect from critters.

Except that bolt makes an attack from 2 power worth of creature lethal to him.

While it's best to know a meta - cards like liquimetal make this less of a problem.  You can make your deck's hate kill ANYTHING with them, so it is less vital to change cards to suit a meta.  Besides, every deck has lands at the very least which explode nicely.

No liquid metal makes it more of a problem.  Why would I want to pack liquid metal in a meta filled with shops, dredge, and storm decks?  It adds next to nothing to my deck in those match ups.

So, a few SB cards I considered that answer a few problems mentioned:

You should try and optimize your main deck before worrying about a sideboard, but I'm assuming your focus on your sideboard means you are happy with your main deck.  What are you trying to bad main deck match ups?  How many cards are poor against each match up (fish, shops, oath, dredge, ect.)?

And do you really want help with your list or not?  Because most of what I've seen in this forum so far is you ripping on everyone else for their suggestions and comments.

[TheWhiteDragon]

You're right on the wastes not being an issue, so that was a bad point...I still have found value in extirpate vs dredge, plows, counters, snapcaster, etc., but perhaps 2 is too many and 1 is okay as a bullet.  Would you suggest cutting extraction or extirpate?  It would possibly take them time to draw the card, but if it is a big threat, i'd rather them not draw it.  I also am not going to be dealing lethal within 10 turns most games.  And if they have tutors, it is another issue.  Still, 2 may be too many.

The selling point for the artifact hate is the general utility and the combo with liquimetal.  The killing mana sources is a last ditch use to trade it as a 1-for-1.  Charm is also versatile main hate for artifacts OR graves.  If I'm trading a spree for a mox, it's not a great trade, but it's getting something out of it, so it's not dead.  It's like thoughtseizing when your opponent has nothing threatening in hand.  Not great, but at least a 1-for-1.  When either of those cards are good, they're great....when either are bad, they at least get parity.
Crucible IS also a concern vs standstill, since it recurs factories and they have fire/ice + bolt + snapcaster to kill my MoMs.  My main point is that they are never dead...not that they are as stellar as an ancestral recall every time I draw it.

The liquimetals make the artifact hate better - but you're assuming the hate is worthless on its own.  With shamans, welders, and a bunch of cards that kill artifacts (for the sake of killing artifacts on their own), liquimetals aren't so shabby.

True, I suppose less decks run the full suite of moxen then I thought of...I was just considering tezz, oath, storm, shops.  Null rod is still decent, but probably has become less useful as of late.

I admit I don't have much experience playing Liliana...it just seems that to maximize the effect, I have to have 0 hand or cards in hand I don't want to cast.  The edict effect is nice, but I wonder how useful she is vs storm, fish, dredge, landstill, GG oath early-mid game.  I could test a couple.

As I said - in your build, looting serves a purpose.  And yes, with 4 ofs in a deck, you may often draw 3 which is why looting is good.  I have a lot of singletons, so looting for me is trading one effect to draw into other different effects - not pitching redundant effects.  I prefer not to draw redundant cages and such (speaking of cards that are not great in a bunch of matchups).  I vary rarely have my moon effects turn off my black spells, since I only run 1 spell that is double black.  Liquimetal doesn't make ALL my cards good, but they do make quite a bunch of them better that have utility on their own. Not much I can do about making redundant lands better...but by running singletons and tutors, I don't often have redundant effects.  With equipment, even my redundant 1/1s become threats.

People don't just run grave/artifact hate in the sb.  Trygons, claims, hurkylls, sabotage, grudges, pridemages, cages - all often maindecked.  Even tormods, nihil, etc sneak into the main at times.  Grave strategies are prevalent enough that this is warranted.  Artifacts are everywhere outside of dredge and fish (which sometimes has null rod itself).

The cheating in fatties comment was addressing the other guy's lodestone/metamorph list.

Liquimetal always adds options to kill lands at the least, but yes - they are worst against dredge, shops, and storm.  Luckily I have artifact hate that makes the shops match typically easy, and grave hate rolled into my artifact hate in rakdos to help the dredge match (and eating bazaar with liquimetal/shaman can happen by turn 2 easily enough).  Vs Storm, they are probably the least effective and are only good for eating lands.  The thing I like about them is the ability to add some strength to shop hate in non-shop matches, cause you really can't know a meta.  It can be different every time.  Most people I face can have any deck sleeved at any time.  If i were facing a dozen guys that always ran shops and dredge, I'd cut liquimetals altogether and maindeck leylines...but predicting the future isn't so easy.

Perhaps I had been a bit overprotective of some card choices.  My apologies.  I don't think I was ripping anyone's suggestions, but I am allowed to agree or disagree .  Many of my comments were actually trying to get the focus back on tweaking my deck.  The call for suggestions was initially answered by showing completely different decks or discussing cards that weren't in my list or fit my gameplan (i.e. metamorph/looting/golem).  Instead of getting any comments on my list that I posted, it immediately became a discussion about a monored MoM/golem deck.  Then when your B/R list was posted, comments veered toward it and again, had nothing to do with the original list (with the exception of duress vs seize).  I don't mind discussing B/R lists in general, but the reason I opened the thread was to get suggestions to fill my sb and hear better cards to swap in my maindeck.  I was disappointed when the discourse went in a totally different direction, admittedly.  If you have suggestions to tweak my deck or want to know about certain card choices, by all means I want that.  If the answer to helping my deck is "play this totally different deck", then that's not exactly what I had in mind.  I wouldn't even mind abandoning the liquimetal strategy or veering in a different direction....but basically running a different pile of 60 with the same R/B colors is not what I was thinking.

[xouman]

Well, it seems I have to apologize. I was the first who put a quite different deck into question, hijacking the original post. The main idea was to show a deck that already got a top (a not impressive 3-1-1, losing in the first round of the top) in the first and only time I played it. That deck already played liquimetal, welder, shaman, heretic... and also MoM, so the real core of the deck was the same. I agree that the draw engine and answers are different, so I raised a question: better monored or RB?

But let's talk about BR. I really prefer playing x4 of best cards. If they are bad in multiples, then play x2 or x3. Looting smoothes it, but it's a preference. Playing singletons with 2-3 tutors and no SDT makes the list less stable. Bolt choice it's on the same way: while it's rarely the best option, in a unknown metagame it's vert solid. In my meta jace's main ability is brainstorming. If opponent fateseals and you don't have solid hand neither battlefield, lightning sucks. But any other card sucks too, it's quite easy to die to a unresponded jace. killing confidants, golems, fish creatures other than tarmo it's great. With coating engine Bolt it's not needed because coating+artifact destruction is far more effective.

This deck does not want 1 for 1's. Dredge and blue will have lots of cards more than us, fish and aggro could probably race us before we can establish ourselves, oath wins resolving 1 card and mud would try to lock us. 1 for 1's in a slow deck is not good at all, slow decks like landstill want 2 for 1's or more. In particular I think it should assemble the Liquimetal engine ASAP, and it's more important heretic+coating than shaman+coating. One shaman does the same work than 2, while 2 heretics can strip 2 artifacts. Shaman can only address lands (and one for each coating), while heretic affects anything. Confidant speeds draws, discarding and MoM gain tempo, as often does revoker. Looting/SDT would search for combo pieces, and SDT would smooth draws for confidant (needed in long games). I'd include trinisphere in the main to same tempo issues: dredge and big blue are quite affected, and mud should already be a great pairing.

Quick decks are the real trouble probably. Against Rituals, pirostatic pillar is an option, but along with confidants would be often an autokill. COTV shuts a lot of own cards. Thorns are ok but easily hateable and increase costs of lots of spells. Cage already hoses YW. I'm not a big fan of MM, but could help. Duress TGZ are great and ratchet bomb/EE adress ETW goblins and moxen.
Aggro decks could also easily race us. I like to play some big guy, my fetish creature is Lord Of Shatterskull Pass. It requires an investment of 3R+1R to be a 6/6, enough to kill golems/tarmos, and several turns later could attack and kill most creatures ahead. Also I prefer Jaya than lavamancer, but just in the monored deck, because the difference between 2 and 3 often matters and usually in monored my grave is quite small. Royal assassin and tappers are also nice, but I find them *useless* if opponent do not play creatures or is in a B mode, although I understand that are nice gaining tempo. I also like to play pyrokinesis as a true quick answer, even I agree it's a weak card. Darkblast feels great and it's another reason to play SDT (dredge darkblast when SDT is showing 3 bad cards). The key imho is gaining time.
Dredge improves with MoM and Cages but wastelands would help. In the side some diversity, with tormod's and ravenous trap to blow graves. Welder recovers tormod's and killed cages.

I hope this post it's a bit more productive towards BR approach. I could of course be wrong in a lot of things, but I'm influenced by my metagame and experience (I played a couple of years before a BR with confidants, MoM, skullclamp and bitterblossom that really sucked, while Monored has been performed well)

[TheWhiteDragon]

That post definitely addressed some concerns and raised some ideas.

I will consider additional heretics. They are really amazing with liquimetal.

The shatterskull guy was a thought, but in playing I found SoFI to be better at making fatties and assassin/trapper good for opposing fatties.  Shatterskull costing 4 hurt.  I can still look into it.  

I could try strip/waste in the sb...though I'm still not sold on them.  Rakdos and extirpates are main grave hate beyond cage.  Shaman/LC handles bazaar together.

In the early stages I had SDT, nihil, and vault/key and would use welder/key/top tricks to draw.  Often I found I was not digging for anything in general and preferred tutoring.  CCs being 0-3 in all cases meant I didn't flip huge damage off bobs, so SDT became even less needed.  SoFIs added protection and fat along with the card draw, so they took place of the SDT.  I also ran into issues of being more vulnerable to null rod/silence with 4 extra activated artifacts.  I have not typically wanted SDT since I cut it.

Trini main is interesting, but in my particular build may not work.  I don't have tombs, full moxen, or SSG, so it wouldn't come down turn 1 often when it is best.  A good call in the sb vs storm though.  Didn't think of that option.

As far as singletons vs 1-ofs, I haven't had many consistency issues because my singletons are really groups.  For example, darkblast, assassin, trapper, lavamancer, SoFI, while all being singletons, are all "critter answers".  5 of those cards are effective against smaller critters and 2 against all critters.  4 bolts mean I will more consistently draw a bolt, but not necessarily "anti-criiter" card.  With a group of singletons, my tutors let me access a variety of effects to hate critters both big and small, whereas bolt only hits x/3 or less. As I said, I also like the uncounterable human aspect and the suite of critter hate is not a 1 for 1 as you point out is bad.

Spree is also often better than a 1 for 1 with replicate and is also uncounterable by throwing a few extra copies on the stack.  Rakdos is 1 for 1, but is so versatile I have loved them.

I think 1 extirpate effect is a spot to trim, and perhaps even a spree in favor of a heretic and something else.

Speed decks certainly are troublesome.  I often get down to 5 or less life before gaining total control (another reason I am hesitant on seize.  I sometimes even assassin, lavamacer, or darkblast my own confidant to stay alive after controlling the board.  Chalice @ 0 may be useful to stop fast decks from holding lotus/moxen to explode in one turn to negate my shaman's disruption.  More duress effects maybe to help vs blue/storm?

[xouman]

Certainly, I forgot carvern. In that case you can focus on getting more humans. I love master transmuter and it's a human; though blue, it could have great impact with liquimetal. Sorry, again I'm opening new horitzons :p

Having singleton creatures to answer is ok if you can't state which is better, but if one is 5% better than another, why don't play 2 of that better card? I won't say it's an error to play 4 different 1of answers, but testing would say if that's the right way.

I'd compare shatterskull to SOFI. Shatterskull does not need other creatures in play (I sometimes struggle to have any creatures in play, even with 24 creatures in the deck), dodges artifact hate and 6/6 it's quite a magic number. But I agree with you that does not feel right in your deck. What about flametongue kavu? 2x1 against right decks (but not a human, and still 4 CC). If you want it only for defensive role, Stinkweed Imp kills *anything* and it's recoverable for 2B. Fleshbag marauder does not target (could be positive or not) and lets you keep a 3/1 instead a 1/1 if you have double gorilla shaman, for example. Basilik collar lets you win life and take out big creatures, but is dead in lots of pairings. Jitte is more versatile, probably a great option and rarely a dead card allowing you to win life, take out creatures or haste your win. Finally bitterblossom creates infinite blockers (or attackers), great with equipments but very slow and not interferes with oponent.

aggro, and specially dredge and oath would have to be severely addressed. cages help a lot, but still I'm not sure to play 4 maindeck...

[TheWhiteDragon]

I'm not sure if master transmuter would be any good.  He's got a great effect, but I'd only have 4 lands to cast him.  He'd be often dead in hand.

I think the heretic in a sense would be good critter defense.  With liquimetal, he kills any creature, and alone he kills shop critters.  I'll try to fit in another 1 or 2.

The anti-critter suite definitely plays into the use of cavern.  I also like reusable effects.  Bolts are great versatility, but they have limitations.  I had tried 2 bolts, 2 doom blades before, but the 1-for-1 was annoying when fish could stream out far more threats than I had answers. It's hard to say if any critter is 5% better than any other option.  The reason is that each effect accomplishes such different things.  Against emakrul/BSC, only trapper will be an answer.  Against attackers, assassin is the best at taking down things of all sizes.  He can be like a moat vs attackers, but he can't kill things that don't need to tap (unless paired with trapper).  Lavamancer can take out anything x/2 that doesn't have to tap, like confidant, shaman, revoker, etc., that cause a problem just due to their abilities.  It can also take out fish and remove chump blockers.  In combo with darkblast or a 1/1 chumper, it can take down golems and other x/3 too.  Darkblast is the weakest effect, but handles nobles, bobs, snapcasters, kitaki, etc., and has the bonus of being basically uncounterable/killable since I can just dredge it as needed (which also helps fuel lavamancer).  None of these are superior to each other overall, but all are superior in a given situation.  Together, they all handle things bolt can't, though they also can't do some things bolt can (kill jace, go to the dome, etc.).

Shatterskull is worth thinking about.  He is big.  I would like a large threat and he's quite a wall.  Stinkweed is really interesting.  Never considered him.  Unkillable in a sense.  He's much less of a threat, but an even better wall.  Imp could be pretty nasty with a SoFI too.

I dislike 4 main cages (which I started the deck with) because they're kinda shitty in multiples.  Also they are dead vs several decks, and then you have 4 dead cards.  1 is great as a tutor target.  The 2 extirpate/extraction and the 2 rakdos charm also help vs dredge, beside the obvious bazaar hate in MoM or liquishaman.  Vs oath, duress/extirpate, cage, and blowing up the oath is my best hope.  If there are other B/R cards that handle those matches, that'd be good.   I'm also thinking ratchet bomb could be useful against oath and 0cc tokens and things.

So far, some suggestions are:

+ 1-2 Lord of shatterskull
+ 1-2 heretic
+ 1 equipment of some sort
+ 1 stinkweed imp
+ 1-2 lilliana vess
+ 1 fleshbag

-1 extraction or extirpate
-1 critter killer

I could also add the ratchet bomb as i said.

Other thoughts?  What else could I cut from the main and what could I also change about/add to the sb?