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Author Topic: REB or Duress?  (Read 1184 times)
TheWhiteDragon
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« on: January 01, 2013, 04:07:48 pm »

So, given that red and black are equally splashable, which card is better to maindeck these days given the latest strategies and printings?

REB Pros: pushes through your spells for +R mana, counters blue spells that are topdecked, kills blue permanents (trygon, jace, snapcaster, meddling mage), instant speed.
REB Cons: can't hit non-blue spells or permanents

Duress Pros: pushes through your spells for +B mana (or if cast the turn before), can pull any non-creature/non-land card
Duress Cons: Can't stop things that are topdecked, can't kill permanents, sorcery speed

In an open meta where dredge, oath, and shops are just as possible as jace.dec/storm/fish, which do you prefer and why?
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2013, 04:23:45 pm »

I think this really depends on the deck. 

I'm going to want duress if I'm a storm deck since it can actually beat a flusterstorm or a RB deck since it beats oath and storm spells.
I'm going to want reb if I'm a control deck since it answers top decks and resolved blue permanents.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2013, 06:12:06 pm »

I'm thinking in my BR deck that destroys permanents.  It has caverns and welders, so I'm not so worried about counterspells.  It needs help battling the stack at times, but can usually remove any and all permanents from the board (except stony silence).  So I'm mainly battling topdeck bombs like yawg will, oath, tinker, jace.  Trygon and golem are also threats, but I run 3 bolts and other answers to those guys.  It's mainly a question of being safer from blue bombs at any time, or being safe from every bomb, but not if they topdeck it.  Flusterstorm and such barely affect me at all.
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xouman
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2013, 08:18:39 pm »

Probably duress is better. Cards as jace or trygon are also affected by bolts, and you already are destroying permanents, so REB would be used mainly as a counterspell. Besides you want it in T1, as T2 and after you have lots of cards to develop your position. With reb you would have to play leaving 1 mana open, and you probably end most of the turns tapped or reserving mana for heretic/shaman

Duress seems better against oath and storm, little better dredge (but both are quite terrible) and useful on the play against mud taking out chalices.
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msg67183
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2013, 09:53:09 pm »

I'd say Duress, against Shops it has more things it can deal with, whereas REB can only COUNTER Metamorph, since it won't be blue after resolution.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2013, 11:25:20 pm »

Duress feels more like it competes with countermagic than with REB.  When I'm slotting REB, I actually think of it as taking the place of Lightning Bolt more than Duress.  my thought process usually goes along these lines:

Countermagic - Stop anything on the stack.  Use when I plan to leave UU open or have enough blue card - and draw engines -  in deck where I FoW and maybe MisD are gonna have fuel.  So, when I've got a blue deck with Bob, I usually focus more on Flusterstorm / Spell Pierce / FoW / Mana Drain as my control elements.  Often slotting U counterspells instead of Duress is a choice specifically because I want more FoW fuel.

Duress Effects - Strip something out of the enemy's hand.  Use when I have a combo deck and I need to check to make sure the coast is clear before I go off. Or when I plan on curving out each turn, so I'm not gonna be leaving U open much.

Red Elemental Blast - I want to push cards through countermagic and stop blue decks from deploying their usual win conditions (Tinker, Ancestral, Tezz, Show and Tell, etc), and I plan on having spare mana to do it.  Usually if I'm worried about U I won't go to REB, I'll go to Flusterstorm.  RED gets the nod where I also don't have a heavy creature component of my deck, so this is another way to stop a resolved Jace.  Or if you're running Painter's Servant.

Active Volcano - Comedy option, always goes in the first draft of a deck, always comes out because it's terrible.

Lightning Bolt - I already have plenty of control elements and I need ways to remove planeswalkers and creatures. 

So, I guess what I'm saying is REB seems to me to fall in a very particular place in the stack -> removal scale, such as it is, and only slots into very specific decks that need the particular flavor of overlapping control and removal it provides.  I use countermagic and duress far more often.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2013, 12:10:21 am »

I was running 4 duress, 3 bolt, 2 EE.  I also have a heavy artifact/permanent destruction suite besides that.  The change I made was -1 duress (moved 1 to sb), -1 EE (moved 1 to sb) and +2 REB.  The bolts are just too good to cut.  The EE is nice, but better in SB when I know I'll need it (like vs oath) since I have many 1cc, 2cc, 3cc permanents myself.  So it really came down to some configuration of REB/duress in 5 slots.  4D/1R or 2D/3R may be better than 3 duress/2 REB that I'm running now.  1D/4R seems bad, since there are times REB is dead, and a dead 4-of hurts.
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