Anti Hate Dredge

[msg67183]

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Petrified Field
2 Dakmor Salvage

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid

4 Ingot Chewer

4 Bridge from Below

4 Nature's Claim
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Darkblast
4 Leyline of the Void

Sideboard:

4 Mental Misstep
4 City of Brass
4 Unmask
3 Wispmare

Let me know your thoughts on the list, thanks for reading.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Nice list.  I'd probably -1 therapy and -1 ichorid (or -1 claim or chewer) and add 2 pithing needle.  Pithing needle can hit wastelands - which is the #1 maindeck answer to dredge. If you are on the draw and they drop waste, you won't have to lay bazaar into it before shutting it down.  Needle also stops hexmage in DT and other activated problems like crypt/nihil/etc.  Also stops vault/key if they try to race your win since you are slow rolling.  You might even consider 3 since they are so good vs the biggest speed bump to your plan.  -1 therapy, -1 ichorid, -1 claim (since chewer dodges thorn and activates bridges) for +3 needles is probably solid.  I'd also consider a darkblast or 2 in place of the thugs - so you can hit g1 jailer/thalia/etc.  The fact it dredges for nearly what a thug does and is actually more castable is good.

[msg67183]

The minimum number of Ichorid in a deck without Dread Return I'd say is 3. I also enjoy playing 4 ofs in this list due to dredge being dredge (not drawing much, like other decks). I like the idea of Pithing Needle, but I'm not sold on them in this list, we will see how it plays out. It may make a place in this deck, might not, we will see. But all in all I think this list is pretty stacked, it's aimed for Shops for the most part.

[TheWhiteDragon]

obviously, shops is the main target, but I think shop's best card vs you, beside spheres, is wasteland.  Also, fish cards and maindeck hate like nihil can be stopped as well.  Mainly the wastelands though.  Cabal therapy seems weak for the most part, especially since you're not pushing a DR through counterspells.  I'd thinkyou could find space to fit in 2-3 needles and that's 1 card I'd cut 1 of.  you'd have to test needles to see if you want them.  They're really solid.

And I wouldn't look at it as running 4-ofs.  You're running 16 anti-hate.  Trimming some artifact hate to add wasteland hate is a fair trade - especially since claims cost a buttload through spheres, but wastes can be stopped proactively.  At least consider them for SB slots, so you know if your opponent runs 4x waste and then you can turn 1 needle for an unmolested turn 2 bazaar.

[Adan]

The list isn't really far away from what Richard Lessmann put together some time ago. That build is still winning tournaments and I also still play it from time to time. I bowwored it to a friend because he spontaneously decided to play the end-of-the-year tournament in Hanau and made finals with itl: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1683

The minimum number of Cabal Therapy in this build is 4. It is essential as a sac-outlet since you don't have DR. Futhermore, the number 1 answer to Wasteland is not maindecking Pithing Needles but Petrified Field. This also allows you to trigger Landfall like a madman and improves your killspeed. Assuming you have Bazaar and Field in your opener and you dredge crappy, you can still fetch a 2nd Bazaar on Turn 2 or 3 (if you are afraid of Encroach, that is. Which you should not at any time during a tournament) and have double Bazaar on Turn3.

Maindeck Leylines are mandatory in a big tournament. It breaks the mirror and against anything else, it disables Y.Will (which is quite essential now that Rituals seem to be a viable pillar in the metagame again) and against Shops, it helps to defend your Bridges. I have never lost a game to Shops preboard when I had Leyline and Bridges, no matter how well-timed the Wasteland on my Bazaar was.

[msg67183]

I don't play in big tournaments, but here is a question I have. Is Mental Misstep necessary? I was thinking of playing either them or 3 or 4 Petrified Field main, if I go with 3 Fields I would probably play the 4th Ichorid, and if I do this I could play 4 Leyline of the Void in my board. Thoughts?

[Adan]

Is Mental Misstep necessary?

No.

I was thinking of playing either them or 3 or 4 Petrified Field main

4

if I go with 3 Fields I would probably play the 4th Ichorid

You don't need a 4th Ichorid.

and if I do this I could play 4 Leyline of the Void in my board. Thoughts?

No. You should play Leyline maindeck for the reasons I mentioned. Simply because this absolutely breaks the mirrormatch. Against anything else in the format Leyline could be something else. But you still want everything covered as good as you can and I already told which splash-damage Leylines can do which makes them good.

However, you are basically wasting SB space because Leylines will be exclusively against the mirrormatch. You won't be boarding them against anything else since the priorities will be shifted in the postboard games where you have to have to fight hate to basically ensure that your deck works the way it it supposed to.

[msg67183]

Updated list in OP. I decided on moving City of Brass to the Sideboard to allow for even more Anti Hate main. I've also fallen in love with Chalice of the Void in the Board for game 3 when the opponent doesn't see it coming and it catches them by surprise, especially when they play Tormod's Crypt! I think this list is a lot stronger than the previous list I had posted.

[msg67183]

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Petrified Field
2 Dakmor Salvage

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid

4 Ingot Chewer

4 Bridge from Below

4 Nature's Claim
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Darkblast
4 Leyline of the Void

Sideboard:

4 Mental Misstep
4 City of Brass
4 Unmask
3 Wispmare

Let me know your thoughts on the list, thanks for reading.

Here is an updated list

[msg67183]

After looking at this list, I realized it is just Black Plague with cards switched between main deck and sideboard, so I'd rather just stick to Black Plague, having the knowledge about the deck.

[Protoaddict]

Lotus, Petal, Moxen
You want to beat shops most of the time you need mana to do so. These get around lodestone to let you actually cast chewers and claims, and sometimes let you get blowout turns game one with a hand with cabals. Specifically an opening hand with Cabal, Bloodghast, Black Lotus, Bazaar is REALLY strong.

Lotus -> 3 Black
Cast Cabal
Cast Bloodghast
FlashBack Cabal off ghast
Bazaar and get back ghast, use bazaar and try to hit another cabal.

Equally good is Golgari Thug, who you can cast in the same way and then dredge him on turn one.

[msg67183]

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Petrified Field
2 Dakmor Salvage

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid

4 Ingot Chewer

4 Bridge from Below

4 Nature's Claim
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Darkblast
4 Leyline of the Void

Sideboard:

4 Mental Misstep
4 City of Brass
4 Unmask
3 Wispmare

Let me know your thoughts on the list, thanks for reading.

Here is an updated list

What if we took this Main Deck and then use a Sideboard with 4 City of Brass, and then 11 cards to Transform it to blank Dredge Hate? The City of Brass come in against Wasteland decks, and the Transformation comes in against non Wasteland decks to blank hate? The question is: what Transformation? Dark Times? Fish? Helm Line? The possibilities are endless.

[vaughnbros]

What if we took this Main Deck and then use a Sideboard with 4 City of Brass, and then 11 cards to Transform it to blank Dredge Hate? The City of Brass come in against Wasteland decks, and the Transformation comes in against non Wasteland decks to blank hate? The question is: what Transformation? Dark Times? Fish? Helm Line? The possibilities are endless.

This doesn't make any sense.  Why are you trying to transform when you are running tons of anti hate in the main?  Youre better off just fighting through the hate in that case.

[gkraigher]

I never understood wispmare in the deck.  The synergy of ingot chewer i understand, you get zombies from bridge when you destroy an artifact.  The only enchantment you care about destroying is leyline of the void.  Where wispmare doesn't give you that synergy.  I would rather have something like chain of vapor in the board.

I do love the mental missteps at least, and the darkblasts main.  I think mental misstep should be included in most decks, especially for games when you are on the draw. 

[msg67183]

U don't need an enchantment out to play Wispmare so you can pay W, Evoke it and get Zombies just like paying R for Chewer and getting Zombies.

The reason I played the anti hate in the main of that list Lance was so I could play through hate if need be, especially against Workshops and Fish, but against the Control decks they usually have to dig for hate so being able to just blank it seems good.
It probably won't work I'm just trying to get ideas together.
So far the best tested deck for me is Black Plague. If anyone has suggestions to make that better let me know.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I never understood wispmare in the deck.  The synergy of ingot chewer i understand, you get zombies from bridge when you destroy an artifact.  The only enchantment you care about destroying is leyline of the void.  Where wispmare doesn't give you that synergy.  I would rather have something like chain of vapor in the board.

Wispmare can't be countered neither by Flusterstorm nor by Spell Pierce or Mental Misstep. Even though it's almost always brought in to fight against Leyline-effects (I'm also counting Rest in Peace to this section), you can still get tokens out of it. Evoke Wispmare, sacrifice-trigger on stack, destroy-enchantment-trigger on stack. Let the destroy-enchantment-trigger resolve, respond on the sacrifice-trigger by activating one or more Bazaar and discard or dredge Bridges. Let the sacrifice-trigger resolve, get token. This situation isn't that rare.

[vaughnbros]

The reason I played the anti hate in the main of that list Lance was so I could play through hate if need be, especially against Workshops and Fish, but against the Control decks they usually have to dig for hate so being able to just blank it seems good.
It probably won't work I'm just trying to get ideas together.
So far the best tested deck for me is Black Plague. If anyone has suggestions to make that better let me know.

If you want to blank hate, play the build I've been piloting lately, Dr. Edge's Laboratory.  In the three tournaments I've played with it I've gone 13-5 in matches (finished 2nd of 31, top 4 of 16, and split top 4 of 34).  Using lab maniac as a win con makes it much more difficult to pilot though.  A resolved doomsday is rather easy to mess up, I punted 2 games with it in the last tournament, and even game 1's usually require quite a bit of thought.

[gkraigher]

ok, you've convinced me.  wispmare is good.  I'm adding it to my sideboard over chain of vapors right now.  

[msg67183]

The reason I played the anti hate in the main of that list Lance was so I could play through hate if need be, especially against Workshops and Fish, but against the Control decks they usually have to dig for hate so being able to just blank it seems good.
It probably won't work I'm just trying to get ideas together.
So far the best tested deck for me is Black Plague. If anyone has suggestions to make that better let me know.

If you want to blank hate, play the build I've been piloting lately, Dr. Edge's Laboratory.  In the three tournaments I've played with it I've gone 13-5 in matches (finished 2nd of 31, top 4 of 16, and split top 4 of 34).  Using lab maniac as a win con makes it much more difficult to pilot though.  A resolved doomsday is rather easy to mess up, I punted 2 games with it in the last tournament, and even game 1's usually require quite a bit of thought.

Lance, your list looks sweet but there are many cards I don't have and if I wanted to play in Philly I can't proxy any of them, which is the problem... I love the idea of Lab Maniac though.

[gkraigher]

Once suggestion I would make about the deck, I don't like 4 leyline of the voids main.  I like 3 main and 1 in the board.  It's in there for the mirror match and yawgmoth's will decks, and do nothing in a lot of other match ups.  I'm not saying cut it entirely, I just don't think it's a 4 lot main either. 

[msg67183]

So Lance, it is probably not possible to play your list without Power is it?

[vaughnbros]

So Lance, it is probably not possible to play your list without Power is it?

It is possible to make it budget although the list would likely variate in two ways.  
1. You can't play doomsday.  So a suitable replacement would need to be found.  Tutors, antihate, dark confidant could all be possible.
2. You would need to change the mana base.  Non 5 color lands are significantly better post transformation because they don't have major drawbacks, but underground seas are quite pricey.

You also would not have Sun Titan into Lotus as a line of play against spheres, which can be critical to winning through them.

Once suggestion I would make about the deck, I don't like 4 leyline of the voids main.  I like 3 main and 1 in the board.  It's in there for the mirror match and yawgmoth's will decks, and do nothing in a lot of other match ups.  I'm not saying cut it entirely, I just don't think it's a 4 lot main either.  

I'd recommend not playing leyline of the void at all right now.  The dredge mirror should not be a concern.  There is rarely more than 1 or 2 dredge players at an entire tournament.  Even there 1st turn bazaar is far more important than leyline, and the chances of having both leyline and bazaar are low, since it will only happen about 1 in 3 games.    Barely any decks even play yawg will and even fewer need it to combo out on the first few turns so that is pretty much irrelevant.  Protecting bridges is about all its good for, but running lab maniac or cards to boost your speed will give you far more benefit as you reduce your dependence on bridges and decrease the time your opponent has to remove them.  The speed and reduced dependancy on bridge also helps with the mirror.

[msg67183]

So Lance, it is probably not possible to play your list without Power is it?

It is possible to make it budget although the list would likely variate in two ways.  
1. You can't play doomsday.  So a suitable replacement would need to be found.  Tutors, antihate, dark confidant could all be possible.
2. You would need to change the mana base.  Non 5 color lands are significantly better post transformation because they don't have major drawbacks, but underground seas are quite pricey.

You also would not have Sun Titan into Lotus as a line of play against spheres, which can be critical to winning through them.

Once suggestion I would make about the deck, I don't like 4 leyline of the voids main.  I like 3 main and 1 in the board.  It's in there for the mirror match and yawgmoth's will decks, and do nothing in a lot of other match ups.  I'm not saying cut it entirely, I just don't think it's a 4 lot main either.  

I'd recommend not playing leyline of the void at all right now.  The dredge mirror should not be a concern.  There is rarely more than 1 or 2 dredge players at an entire tournament.  Even there 1st turn bazaar is far more important than leyline, and the chances of having both leyline and bazaar are low, since it will only happen about 1 in 3 games.    Barely any decks even play yawg will and even fewer need it to combo out on the first few turns so that is pretty much irrelevant.  Protecting bridges is about all its good for, but running lab maniac or cards to boost your speed will give you far more benefit as you reduce your dependence on bridges and decrease the time your opponent has to remove them.  The speed and reduced dependancy on bridge also helps with the mirror.

You already knew that I liked Lab Man + Demonic Consultation since I learned that combo existed. That would obviously be one of the cards... I understand about no drawbacks, but when all I have is rainbow lands, I gotta make due. If I'm not running power would Dark Ritual suffice? Also what about Recall?

[vaughnbros]

You already knew that I liked Lab Man + Demonic Consultation since I learned that combo existed. That would obviously be one of the cards...

Consult is actually pretty bad.  Unless you already have maniac out it doesn't really help you a whole lot.  You still need to get rid of the rest of your library some how if you find maniac with it and it is far too risky to find anything else with it. 

I understand about no drawbacks, but when all I have is rainbow lands, I gotta make due.

The rainbow lands are the biggest issue with many of the other dredge transformations.  Bouncing a land every turn, undiscovered paradise, or it having limited uses, gemstone mine, makes it extremely difficult to advance your board state.  City of brass is the only land that isn't going to hurt you too terribly.

If I'm not running power would Dark Ritual suffice? Also what about Recall?

Ritual does not suffice.  After playing doomsday you usually need lotus to generate blue mana not black, and ancestral is absolutely critical to the doomsday pile.

[gkraigher]

I'd recommend not playing leyline of the void at all right now. 

I always found it funny that every dredge player runs 4 main because they have a bias about how good dredge is. 

[msg67183]

I have been putting a list together that I think could work. I wanted to play Force of Will to beat decks. I also wanted speed so I decided on Sphinx of Lost Truths since its blue and it's pretty fast, especially chained in multiples. Here is the list:


Blue Dredge

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Serum Powder
4 Force of Will
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Mental Misstep
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sideboard:
4 City of Brass
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Darkblast
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

[Protoaddict]

On the topic of anti dredge cards, I find that Ravenous trap is by far the better card than leyline in the dredge match up because it can surprise the other player, does not have to be in your opener so you can dig for it with bazaar, is immune to most of the anti hate that dredge packs (ingot chewer, claim, etc), and dredge does not run a counter suite that can deal with it.

It can be worse in other match ups since it can get countered, but if dredge is your big concern I would run these in the side, along with faerie macabre, which can function as a poor mans trap.

[vaughnbros]

On the topic of anti dredge cards, I find that Ravenous trap is by far the better card than leyline in the dredge match up because it can surprise the other player, does not have to be in your opener so you can dig for it with bazaar, is immune to most of the anti hate that dredge packs (ingot chewer, claim, etc), and dredge does not run a counter suite that can deal with it.

It can be worse in other match ups since it can get countered, but if dredge is your big concern I would run these in the side, along with faerie macabre, which can function as a poor mans trap.

Surprise is the only advantage rav trap has though.  If I, as a dredge player, am aware than you have the trap, via therapy or from you using one earlier, it is not difficult at all to play around or through.  Faerie macabre seems quite awful, sure its a counterspell against dread return and can buy you a turn if you exile the first bazaar activation, but thats about it.  Hardly worth slots in your 75.

[msg67183]

Lance: what are your thoughts on the Blue Dredge List I posted.

[Protoaddict]

On the topic of anti dredge cards, I find that Ravenous trap is by far the better card than leyline in the dredge match up because it can surprise the other player, does not have to be in your opener so you can dig for it with bazaar, is immune to most of the anti hate that dredge packs (ingot chewer, claim, etc), and dredge does not run a counter suite that can deal with it.

It can be worse in other match ups since it can get countered, but if dredge is your big concern I would run these in the side, along with faerie macabre, which can function as a poor mans trap.

Surprise is the only advantage rav trap has though.  If I, as a dredge player, am aware than you have the trap, via therapy or from you using one earlier, it is not difficult at all to play around or through.  Faerie macabre seems quite awful, sure its a counterspell against dread return and can buy you a turn if you exile the first bazaar activation, but thats about it.  Hardly worth slots in your 75.

One turn is all you need often in a dredge VS dredge match up. Any card other than leyline can be zapped by cabal too, but at least these 2 you can draw into with bazaar AFTER they try to cabal you and still be able to play them. Dredge tends to side in anti hate in the form of artifact and enchantment removal, not more targeted discard, so overall Trap and faerie can be more resilient to the mirror than leyline.

Macabe I only bring up since it can blank the natures claims they potentially bring in if you have no artifacts, can be used in response to something and play with the stack, is Ichorid food, and can delay a player a full turn as opposed to something like surgical extraction which may not remove enough from the yard at once to matter.

These are recos only for heavy dredge metas though, i wouldn't recommend this sideboard if your going to be facing shops or fish all day long.