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Author Topic: Dredge  (Read 13024 times)
vaughnbros
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« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2013, 09:31:14 am »

well of course you need to throw down at least 1 road block to really assure winning, but you'd be surprised at how many times I've "raced" dredge when I wasted their early bazaar and dropped an early Thalia. If my opponent is forced to slow dredge and find his ichorids (I could give two shits about bloodghasts and narcomoebas cause he'll have no way to sac them for tokens cause I won't attack into them) and I can find a single mayor of avabruck in a few turns I just bought myself a lot of turns where I am getting a 3/3 army to find parity with his 2/2 army. Obviously it depends on the number of bridges in the yard, but there definitely ways to play the creature battle/blockers math with Humans.dec once you have an opponent relying on only ichorids to win. I also run 3 Deathrite Shaman and under such a stalled game-state I now win by exiling ichorids.

You need to not just assume that a lack of major hate auto-loses you the game. There is a lot of more "soft" hate out there that can get you there. Will it often? Probably not. But in concert with the real hate and other sorta counter-intuitive bombs like mayor it becomes a totally different matchup than simply "do you have the hate? I guess I win/lose."

-Storm

I think you're under a misunderstanding of what card actually won you the game.  Strip effects are legitimate hate.  Stripping a bazaar when the dredge player doesn't have a petrified field or second bazaar in hand can seriously slow down the deck's clock speed.  When the deck's speed is slowed to a great enough level pretty much everything starts to become relevant.  I know I didn't mention it explicitly, but strip effects are one of the major reasons workshops is such a threat to dredge game 1.  A fish deck's line of play going Waste, Thalia, Mayor is very similar to a workshops deck's line of play going Waste, Thorn, Forgemaster.  Both are going to be very good ways to "steal" a game 1 off a dredge player, but if you take wasteland out of either of those lines that games win percentage is going to swing drastically back into the dredge players favor. 
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Guli
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« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2013, 10:44:14 am »

I don't see how Thalia + no hate is a "back breaker" for Dredge.
I don't even see Lodestone Golem + no hate out as a back breaker.
I just play through it, nothing is stopping me from getting Bloodghasts, Narcomoebas, and Ichorids into play.
I can also just slow dredge through Thalia.
Thalia is very powerful versus dredge
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« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2013, 12:24:49 pm »

well of course you need to throw down at least 1 road block to really assure winning, but you'd be surprised at how many times I've "raced" dredge when I wasted their early bazaar and dropped an early Thalia. If my opponent is forced to slow dredge and find his ichorids (I could give two shits about bloodghasts and narcomoebas cause he'll have no way to sac them for tokens cause I won't attack into them) and I can find a single mayor of avabruck in a few turns I just bought myself a lot of turns where I am getting a 3/3 army to find parity with his 2/2 army. Obviously it depends on the number of bridges in the yard, but there definitely ways to play the creature battle/blockers math with Humans.dec once you have an opponent relying on only ichorids to win. I also run 3 Deathrite Shaman and under such a stalled game-state I now win by exiling ichorids.

You need to not just assume that a lack of major hate auto-loses you the game. There is a lot of more "soft" hate out there that can get you there. Will it often? Probably not. But in concert with the real hate and other sorta counter-intuitive bombs like mayor it becomes a totally different matchup than simply "do you have the hate? I guess I win/lose."

-Storm

I think you're under a misunderstanding of what card actually won you the game.  Strip effects are legitimate hate.  Stripping a bazaar when the dredge player doesn't have a petrified field or second bazaar in hand can seriously slow down the deck's clock speed.  When the deck's speed is slowed to a great enough level pretty much everything starts to become relevant.  I know I didn't mention it explicitly, but strip effects are one of the major reasons workshops is such a threat to dredge game 1.  A fish deck's line of play going Waste, Thalia, Mayor is very similar to a workshops deck's line of play going Waste, Thorn, Forgemaster.  Both are going to be very good ways to "steal" a game 1 off a dredge player, but if you take wasteland out of either of those lines that games win percentage is going to swing drastically back into the dredge players favor. 

I'm not misunderstanding. I fully realize that a Thalia without a waste backing it up is pretty useless at stopping a team of zombies from ruining your day. What I AM saying is that if you can go turn 1 Thalia into turn 2 Waste (or vice versa if you were on the draw) you now cut the dredge pilot off potentially from a huge slew of its "back-breaking" plays. No longer can they dredge more than once a turn and they may lose the ability to even do that if they don't hit dredgers. No longer can they simply therapy away moebas and ghasts if they don't have another mana source out so that cuts off that line of play. Basically it slows them down. At this point you rely on cards like Mayor or even Knight --> Bojuka Bog to bat clean-up. This makes game 1's quite winnable *hint hint- I also run 3 maindeck GD cage and 3 MD Deathrite Shaman.*

I get a bit offended when players claim I don't understand the dredge matchup. I've tested it and tested it and tested it. I know the lines of play that lead to victory and those that don't. Obviously you can still just lose by not drawing any hate or being a turn behind, but that can happen to most decks when facing dredge. I just think that Human Fish has more weapons game 1 than most decks out there.

-Storm
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2013, 12:57:04 pm »

well of course you need to throw down at least 1 road block to really assure winning, but you'd be surprised at how many times I've "raced" dredge when I wasted their early bazaar and dropped an early Thalia. If my opponent is forced to slow dredge and find his ichorids (I could give two shits about bloodghasts and narcomoebas cause he'll have no way to sac them for tokens cause I won't attack into them) and I can find a single mayor of avabruck in a few turns I just bought myself a lot of turns where I am getting a 3/3 army to find parity with his 2/2 army. Obviously it depends on the number of bridges in the yard, but there definitely ways to play the creature battle/blockers math with Humans.dec once you have an opponent relying on only ichorids to win. I also run 3 Deathrite Shaman and under such a stalled game-state I now win by exiling ichorids.

You need to not just assume that a lack of major hate auto-loses you the game. There is a lot of more "soft" hate out there that can get you there. Will it often? Probably not. But in concert with the real hate and other sorta counter-intuitive bombs like mayor it becomes a totally different matchup than simply "do you have the hate? I guess I win/lose."

-Storm

I think you're under a misunderstanding of what card actually won you the game.  Strip effects are legitimate hate.  Stripping a bazaar when the dredge player doesn't have a petrified field or second bazaar in hand can seriously slow down the deck's clock speed.  When the deck's speed is slowed to a great enough level pretty much everything starts to become relevant.  I know I didn't mention it explicitly, but strip effects are one of the major reasons workshops is such a threat to dredge game 1.  A fish deck's line of play going Waste, Thalia, Mayor is very similar to a workshops deck's line of play going Waste, Thorn, Forgemaster.  Both are going to be very good ways to "steal" a game 1 off a dredge player, but if you take wasteland out of either of those lines that games win percentage is going to swing drastically back into the dredge players favor.  

I'm not misunderstanding. I fully realize that a Thalia without a waste backing it up is pretty useless at stopping a team of zombies from ruining your day. What I AM saying is that if you can go turn 1 Thalia into turn 2 Waste (or vice versa if you were on the draw) you now cut the dredge pilot off potentially from a huge slew of its "back-breaking" plays. No longer can they dredge more than once a turn and they may lose the ability to even do that if they don't hit dredgers. No longer can they simply therapy away moebas and ghasts if they don't have another mana source out so that cuts off that line of play. Basically it slows them down. At this point you rely on cards like Mayor or even Knight --> Bojuka Bog to bat clean-up. This makes game 1's quite winnable *hint hint- I also run 3 maindeck GD cage and 3 MD Deathrite Shaman.*

I get a bit offended when players claim I don't understand the dredge matchup. I've tested it and tested it and tested it. I know the lines of play that lead to victory and those that don't. Obviously you can still just lose by not drawing any hate or being a turn behind, but that can happen to most decks when facing dredge. I just think that Human Fish has more weapons game 1 than most decks out there.

This isn't the place for a discussion about the viability of your particular humans deck list.  This is a discussion about dredge.  So I think its better if we keep things on that topic.  If you're main decking cage, bojuka bog, strip effects, and deathrite shaman you should be in much better shape dredge game 1 than most decks.  If you're not you should probably reevaluate the way you're playing the match up or how your card choices in general.

Stripping dredge's bazaar before its turn 2 combined with ANYTHING is a great way to give yourself a chance against dredge game 1.

A hate card combined with ANYTHING is a great way to give yourself a chance against dredge game 1.

As far as Thalia in a vacuum against dredge is concerned.  Therapy is a pretty weak card against fish decks.  As a dredge player you really don't care about anything in a fish players hand so I'm not using therapy as disruption.  I'm also generally using narcoemeba as an evasive creature and chump blocker so I don't need a sacrifice outlet for it.  Leaving the only real use for therapies to be providing a sacrifice outlet for bloodghast.  Seeing as the only way I have a bloodghast in play is if I also have a land, I will have the mana to pay for Thalia.  So she isn't preventing me from using a therapy when I want to.  So in the end against dredge she isn't really much more than a Porcelain Legionnaire.  And on that note first strike can be a drawback as much as a bonus since it helps the dredge player protect their bridges.
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msg67183
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« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2013, 02:13:10 pm »

I know all about being slowed down game 1. I played against a Grixis Control deck that had main deck Stifle. I mulliganed to 3, and had my Bazaar activations Stifled 2 turns in a row. I still managed to get there though.
I feel the absolute best card a Dredge deck can play while on the play is Unmask.
I tested against a Shops player whom I Unmasked turn 1 his hand was the following:
Lodestone Golem, Mox, Phyrexian Metamorph, Mishra's Workshop, Chalice of the Void, Land, on a mulligan to 6.
Unmask simply wrecked him.
Another instance where Unmask was awesome:
The opponent was on the play and plays Land, Black Lotus go.
I draw and have DOUBLE UNMASK to take his Tinker, and Snapcaster Mage.
He top decks Mox...
If I would have only had 1 Unmask he could have still casted Tinker from Snapcaster.
I guess that was my luckiest game against a game 1 opponent.
Unmask just wrecks people's game plan if played correctly.
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Ozymandias
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2013, 12:10:14 am »

Went 3-1 with this yesterday:

4   Bloodghast
4   Golgari Grave-Troll
2   Golgari Thug
3   Ichorid
4   Narcomoeba
4   Stinkweed Imp

4   Bazaar Of Baghdad
4   City Of Brass
1   Dakmor Salvage
4   Undiscovered Paradise

4   Bridge from Below
3   Cabal Therapy
1   Darkblast
2   Dread Return
4   Leyline of the Void
4   Mental Misstep
4   Serum Powder
4   Unmask
SB:
1   Ancient Grudge
3   Chain of Vapor
1   Darkblast
3   Ingot Chewer
4   Nature's Claim
3   Wispmare

I never boarded in Grudge, and I was underwhelmed by Dread Return. There aren't enough creatures in this format to really justify it--I think I would either need to go way more combo-y with Fatestitcher and Titan and junk, or cut them for a 4th therapy and maybe a land. I beat Long Oath, 4CC, and UW Helm-RIP (go figure) and lost to tropical storm by being an idiot. I generally ended up boarding out some combination of 2 DR, 2 Golgari Grave-Troll, 1 Narcomoeba, 4 Leylines, 4 Unmask (on draw) for essentially my entire board. Unmask was insane all day, as was Mental Misstep. Leyline was do-nothing, but I was glad to have it. I felt like I needed more lands postboard, and I might end up getting a extra gemstone mine or 2 in there.
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msg67183
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« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2013, 06:35:35 am »

So, after talking to the creator of the Troll-less list, we have both cut Mental Misstep from the list, due to the fact that it is just too situational. He also cut the 3 Leylines and put in 3 Dread Return, 1 Griselbrand, 1 Sun Titan, 1 Ingot Chewer and one other card that I cannot recall off the top of my head. I only cut the Missteps and put the 4 City of Brass into the main, then bumped the Wispmares to 4 and added 3 Chain of Vapor. Only time will tell which list is optimal. I think my change makes the deck even more resilient to hate, as well as have the ability to answer a Griselbrand or Elesh Norn in play, while his is faster.
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disrupting specter
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« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2013, 05:36:12 pm »

Dredge seems really hard to play and really hard to build. It just doesn't play like any other magic deck. I've been in on Dredge since the Friggorid days. (not quite the Standard Golgari days) I've never been able to build/innovate for it. (I called Dryad Arbor as being way more important than Narcomoeba, thought that Careful study/Breakthrough was better than Fatestitcher, and Sun Titan didn't even show up on my radar  Embarassed ) I thought I could play it correctly until I saw voltron00x vs. Ryan Glackin in Autumn 2012.

I didn't know all cards from dredge hit the graveyard at the same time. The dredge player acknowledges the Narcomoebas as they trigger but does not put Narcomoeba into play until dredge and Bazaar of Baghdad resolve completely.

I didn't know that Golgari Gravetroll counts himself for +1/+1 counters when you Dread Return him. That is, if you have 10 creatures in the graveyard and the Golgari Gravetroll that you are reanimating, he gets +11/+11.

After finding that out, I would be embarrassed to play Dredge outside of a testing gauntlet. It feels like you need a judge sitting next to you to really learn how to play Dredge correctly.

If that wasn't enough, cards are being printed to make it not only easy but profitable to hate the graveyard. I couldn't find an article on wizards from a while back basically saying that wizards hates graveyard deck and wants to keep them in check. (Something about Open the Vaults) There's a parade of Scavenging Ooze, Grafdigger's Cage, Deathrite Shaman and the like that put a bounty on the head of a Dredge player.

Dredge also got bupkis out of supposed graveyard block and Return to Golgari. I would think it is more logical to play a deck that will always get new toys, like Workshop. A Juggernaut variant and a lock piece will be in every block, even if they are irrelevent ones like Galvanic Juggernaut and Glaring Spotlight. At least the archtypes are there, where nether shadow is not.
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pony16
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« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2013, 12:42:25 pm »

Dredge is not Tier 1 anymore because its weakness is speed. Storm is coming back and doesn't even need a sideboard for dredge, leveling the hate for hate strategy. The Blue matchup is good because Jace, the Mind Sculpter is either worth 1 mana or is win-more. Rest in Peace and Scavenging Ooze are powerful and such a fish deck packing 4 Mental Misstep is my worst nightmare. Workshop decks pack plenty of good cards yet are inconsistent, fragile and I will exploit this by ignoring the archetype. Their combos and 6 mana creatures skyrocket their win% but building to beat this (Petrified Field, Ingot Chewer) drops dredge win% vs the field.

Most dredge lists, especially Sun Titan lists, are overall stronger and more likely to top 8 than my turtle strategy. But that is not my style, I don't have experience playing them, and my list will do better in the finals. I like to cripple my opponent into topdeck mode and attack with hardcast 1 power creatures. Lucky matchups and draws can propel you to 3-0 where you will face desired Tier 1 decks and avoid fish and workshop aggro. Furthermore, 3-0 aggro decks hopefully play Phyrexian Revoker, Duplicant, Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf, Delver of Secrets, and Snapcaster Mage, or even Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Triskelion.

Building to stomp weak decks makes your Tier 1 matchups worse. I am trying to beat storm, have a good mirror, and not auto-lose to anyone. Pithing Needle gives you fighting power via the transparency of Griselbrand, Time Vault, and Kuldotha Forgemaster. Needle is bad in multiples just like Firestorm, Chalice of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, and Stifle. Unless I see Tormod's Crypt I only like Chalice on the play. Firestorm is your 5th Bazaar and burns your opponent. 4 Mental Misstep is necessary to avoid losing quickly and protecting 1 drops. Wear/Tear is awesome but in reality I Wax/Wane for 2 damage. Bridge from Below is excellent game 1 but is slow and easily removable with enemy critters amuk. Bridge annihilates Tier 3 decks, but doesn't help vs speed or raw power level so I am considering cutting it entirely. Death's Shadow is a gutsy, fragile plan B but fits the deck nicely (Cabal Therapy for Swords to Plowshares before dropping the second copy). I tried creativity but other dudes tested poorly: Meddling Mage, Stun Sniper, Waterfront Bouncer, Burning-Tree Shaman, Kataki, War's Wage, Dark Confidant, Bloodfire Dwarf. Dread Return is strong vs the mirror and aggro, but bad vs the field. Ancestral Recall is too large a tempo loss.

Games 2 and 3 I keep more than half of hands with at least one land. Commit early to a game plan, sometimes the only path to victory is to ignore hate. Create luck, don't be afraid to rely on top-decks or blind Cabal Therapy snipes. Boarding out Serum Powder makes your library huge so force Ravenous Trap early. The ideal life total is one; Tarnished Citadel EOT turn 1 is worth giving them information. Sideboarding plans can change considerably depending on what you see.

Friday the Dredge
4 Serum Powder
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Tarnished Citadel
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Pithing Needle
1 Stifle
1 Nature's Claim
1 Mental Misstep
4 Street Wraith
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
2 Bridge from Below
2 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Darkblast

Sideboard:
4 Death's Shadow
3 Mental Misstep
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Unmask
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
1 Wax/Wane
1 Firestorm

vs Storm/Combo:
-4 Serum Powder
-3 Leyline of the Void
-2 Darkblast
-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Death's Shadow
+3 Mental Misstep
+1 Leyline of Sanctity
+1 Unmask
+1 Chalice of the Void
+3 Nature's Claim
(against hate bring in more Death's Shadow)

vs Blue on the draw:
-4 Serum Powder
-4 Leyline of the Void
-1 Ichorid
-1 Bridge from Below
-1 Golgari Grave-Troll
-1 Stinkweed Imp
-2 Golgari Thug
+14 entire sideboard except Chalice of the Void
(On the play, +1 Chalice of the Void, -1 Bridge from Below)

vs Workshops on the draw:
-1 Serum Powder
-4 Cabal Therapy
-2 Darkblast
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Stifle
-1 Leyline of the Void
+4 Death's Shadow
+1 Unmask
+3 Nature's Claim
+1 Firestorm
+1 Mental Misstep
(On the play, +1 Chalice of the Void, -1 Leyline of the Void)

vs Fish on the draw:
-2 Serum Powder
-4 Leyline of the Void
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 Stifle
-3 Golgari Thug
-2 Street Wraith
+4 Death's Shadow
+3 Mental Misstep
+1 Unmask
+3 Nature's Claim
+1 Wax/Wane
+1 Firestorm
(On the play, +1 Chalice of the Void, -1 Serum Powder)

vs Dredge:
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Cabal Therapy
-1 Street Wraith
-1 Stinkweed Imp
-2 Golgari Thug
+3 Mental Misstep
+3 Nature's Claim
+1 Wax/Wane
+1 Firestorm


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vaughnbros
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« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2013, 05:07:05 pm »

After reviewing your list there are a number of includes and not includes that do not seem to make sense to me.  As a result it does not seem optimal to me.  I'm going to suggest that you review the original post for some help with the deck.

The biggest non inclusion I saw is cutting both bridge from below and dread return.  You severely decrease the deck's speed almost to the point where there isn't really a reason to be playing dredge. 

The biggest inclusion I see is cards that require you to play a non bazaar land on turn 1.  They also severely decrease the deck's speed.  Activating bazaar early and often is essential to winning with dredge.

These two deck building choices may be why you feel the deck is not fast enough.

If you feel you want to beat combo I highlighted some cards that would help you win those match ups.  Unmask, dread return w/ targets, mental misstep, force, and most of all Leyline of Sanctity are cards that should significantly increase your match win % against a deck like Burning Long.

As far as the mirror dread return w/ targets, answers to their leylines, and most of all your own leyline of the voids are going to boost your match win % there.

If your goal is to beat those two decks then I'd suggest you run a version with both leylines main deck and dread return.
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pony16
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« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2013, 04:26:33 pm »

I tested Unmask as well as Dread Return verses storm and am seeing better results. Reaching 50% game win is unreasonable and the best I can achieve is twenty-something% through Dread Return. Unmask is an all-star and can cause significant damage to certain hands. They have Duress while they go off so trying to beat storm's good draws amounts to never-going-to-happen scenarios like Stifle Empty the Warrens with Leyline of Sanctity in play. So I am building to beat their weak, fragile draws with the classic approach of Serum Powder into Bazaar.

I keep Nature's Claim in the board because you can't win a one-for-one attrition war vs storm and I have Cabal Therapy flashback for Oath of Druids. Griselbrand is legendary but doesn't win immediately so I prefer the conservative Flame-kin Zealot. Even in topdeck mode, storm is scary.

I still dislike speed in a vacuum because now Rest in Peace or Ravenous Trap are even more devastating. With Dread Return my extended sideboard shrinks and most other matchups are hurting.

This is difficult to discuss without a post-board 75 vs storm to compare to. Right now I'm having the most success manaless:

Post-board vs storm
4 Serum Powder
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mental Misstep
4 Unmask
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
3 Bloodghast
3 Street Wraith

Sideboard:
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Wax/Wane
4 Nature's Claim
1 Bloodghast
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2013, 07:53:41 am »

I'm not quite sure what storm deck you are playing against that is capable of beating any other vintage deck at that rate.  The only existing one I can think of is burning long and that beats itself 20% of the time... 

For beating storm and the mirror I was thinking a main deck a long the lines of this:

4 Serum Powder
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Unmask
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Dread Return
1 Sun Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
3 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Undiscovered Paradise

It should be capable of goldfishing turn 3 pretty often as well as grabbing wins via unmask and leyline of sanctity.  Then you can use the entire 15 cards in your sideboard to work out a plan to overcome hate cards.
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sheva
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« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2013, 05:26:12 am »

Mindbreak Trap isn't good aganist combo?
I tried this card during the last few tournament (obv in sideboard) e it works very good because unexpected.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10382&iddeck=75713

If combo is a problem (with unmask and cabal therapy it isn't an impossible MU) play more aggressive: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10726&iddeck=78318

Easy  Very Happy
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TEK
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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2013, 03:42:22 pm »

i have been playing this list for about six month now and have been doing fairly well with it.

The list
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Griselbrand
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Sun Titan
1 Fatestitcher
1 Mental Misstep
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
3 Nature’s Claim
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Serum Powder
 4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage

SB:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Ingot Chewer
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Nature’s Claim
1 Darkblast
2 Wispmare
2 Mental Misstep

It is a very combo oriented list

Thinking about taking out the Chain of Vapor for unmask to help against the fast combo decks like doomsday

Also thinking about taking out Griselbrand for something else maybe another ingot chewer

Looking for thoughts on the list and thoughts on my planned changes
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msg67183
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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2013, 04:42:01 pm »

The list I have been testing has had pretty nice results. Here is the list:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Mox Sapphire
Lotus Petal
4 Fatestitcher
3 Sun Titan
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba

Sideboard:

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Darkblast
4 Nature's Claim
4 Wispmare
4 Ingot Chewer

As you can see its pure combo and extremely fast. I have found the artifact mana to help against Workshops, helping you cast your cards post board. I have also found that going all in on the combo when on the play against non FoW decks is a good call, given the speed of this deck. Let me know your thoughts.

Another thing I'd like to point I'd like to point out is the 0 Ichorid! I find it an uneeded slot when just trying to go broken in one turn. This may be wrong but it seems to work for me, or me know what thoughts the general community have.
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« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2013, 02:02:06 pm »

The first list Sheva posted slays MUD and the second has speed and both are good templates for how to build. I find Ancestral Recall surprisingly appropriate maindeck in the second. Though I would cut Chain of Vapor for Mental Misstep in each, unless you know Mental Misstep won't be played against you. I worry Mindbreak Trap is bad vs storm for the same reason as Stifle or anything reactive: they have Duress. Maybe 1 copy is fine but 3 is too transparent.

TEK: I like adding Unmask because your sideboard needs to be more universal and this is huge for game 2. Your list can kill permanent hate effectively especially once you are familiar with their 75. But it needs Unmask or a 4th Mental Misstep, or even Force of Will or Flusterstorm, to deal with instant speed hate like Ravenous Trap or Surgical Extraction. You have a fast enough build for Chain of Vapor, but I still dislike Chain because hate is replayable. Myself I am torn between having 1, 2, or 3 Dread Return targets but I think either 2 or 3 is fine. 3 is nicely consistent, but returning Golgari Grave-Troll is sometimes enough. Fatesticher seems a little out of place because of 2x Dakmor Salvage, I'd like to see at least 1 Gemstone Mine for him. I would cut Sun Titan before Griselbrand because he is legendary, but in either case I'd add Unmask. I'd put Leyline of the Void maindeck over Nature's Claim because Cabal Therapy can often do what Claim does. Right now I'm testing 3x Firestorm in my sideboard for Fish and board out the Dread Return package, but your and msg's lists have inspired me to try Elesh Norn, Gran Cenobite instead.

msg: I agree all in combo is the way to go vs non-FoW decks, especially when playing artifact mana. I wouldn't even board in Nature's Claim vs storm. I don't think 0 Ichorid is crazy; sometimes I leave in only 1 copy post-board. Ichorid needs Bridge from Below to be truly effective and sometimes I don't have enough black creatures. Bloodghast with top-deckable Undiscovered Paradise is more robust. However I do think 3 Cabal Therapy is crazy. Cabal Therapy is the primary source of the deck's power.

For the time being I don't like the control (turtle) dredge strategy. I just try to be fast myself and hope they don't do anything more broken.

Dread Return is necessary in the current meta because some Oath of Druids decks and pure glass cannon decks don't have hate for you. A Dread-less list is well prepared for hate but this is unimportant (if not irrelevant).

I don't board out Serum Powder anymore. It allows for more consistency and luck because you have more accurate knowledge of your Library. The biggest application is the dredge or draw decision. Sometimes the best plan is to draw land and hardcast creatures.
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« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2013, 02:03:49 am »

pony16:

I actually prefer the Troll-less list because of main deck Misstep and Unmask. It's a solid deck that fights a meta very well.
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« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2013, 05:16:09 pm »

With the rise of Deathrite Shaman, I was wondering if Contagion should see more play?
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« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2013, 10:18:22 pm »

Deathrite is generally far, far too slow to answer the rate at which you will fill your yard and run out creatures.  And 2-for-1ing yourself to deal with it is even worse.  I would concentrate your efforts on fighting the more common hate cards that are much more devastating.

Note: I'm not a fan of pitching to Unmask either but it's a necessary evil.
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« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2013, 08:52:10 am »

Deathrite Shaman after a turn 1 Wasteland on my Bazaar is pretty brutal, making slow Dredging harder. But that's why I like Misstep and Unmask main deck.
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« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2013, 04:45:59 pm »

Deathrite Shaman after a turn 1 Wasteland on my Bazaar is pretty brutal, making slow Dredging harder. But that's why I like Misstep and Unmask main deck.

It seems to me that the biggest problem here is getting hit by Wasteland on turn 1.
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« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2013, 09:59:50 pm »

My list also runs 4 main deck Petrified Field. I have a feeling that the list I have played in tournaments is an optimal Dread Returnless Dredge deck, and I have Lance Ballaster to thank (vaughnbros). He has moved away from Dread Returnless but still remains Troll-less. His view on Troll is:
It's not black, so can't be pitched to Unmask, or removed by Ichorid.
It's nigh uncastable games 2 and 3.
So we don't play him.
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« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2013, 10:35:55 am »

So I put down dredge for a couple months after missing a handful of top 8's at 3-2.  Before picking the deck up again I wanted to figure out a new build that I could pilot to some success.  Divining witch has been a card that I've always found very interesting since I first started playing magic and I really wanted to make him work.  I had tried to make it work in the past, but the sideboard transformation was never strong enough.  So the best way to improve the sideboard transformation is of course to change the main deck drastically.  I changed the main deck strategy from attacking with zombies into milling my library with Grisel/Sun Titan/Fatestitchers and then winning with Lab Maniac.  Then for sideboarded games the deck transforms into a creature based combo/control list.   I still hadn't completely optimized the list and because of this didn't have much confidence in the lists ability to perform, but here's what I ended up taking to the finals of a 31 man tournament in Lancaster, PA.

Dr. Edge's Laboratory

Main Deck (60):

Mana Sources:
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Dakmor Salvage

Fast Mana:
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Bazaar and its search engine:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

Free Bodies:
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Fatestitcher
2 Bridge from Below
1 Dryad Arbor

Card Advantage:
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Cabal Therapy

Return and Targets:
4 Dread Return
2 Griselbrand
1 Sun Titan
2 Laboratory Maniac

Dredgers:
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug

Sideboard (15):
Mana Sources:
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Underground Sea

Another 1 card combo:
4 Divining Witch

Card Advantage:
3 Dark Confidant
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Skullclamp

Round 1 against Alex on BUG fish
Game 1 - I keep my opener of Bazaar and triple narcomoeba...  He goes first turn deathrite shaman, turn 2 wasteland, turn 3 scavenging ooze and prevents me from getting any bloodghasts or narcomoebas into play.  I manage to hard cast a golgari thug, but otherwise do nothing relevant.
Game 2 - He drops turn 0 leyline.  I drop Diving Witch, fetch up Laboratory Maniac, and proceed to win before he can get black mana.
Game 3 - He drops another turn 0 leyline and then his deck does what its supposed to do.  He abrupt decays, counters all my early threats then strips me 4 times to keep me off the mana I need to combo quickly.  I was still only one turn short before he attacked me for lethal Sad
Record 0-1

Round 2 against Evan on Metalworker Workshops
Game 1 - I mulligan to 1 non bazaar card and am pretty much expecting to be blown out of the water.  He plays a bunch of spheres.  We sit there for a few turns going draw go.  He eventually finds a mishra's factory and starts attacking.  The 8th card I draw is bazaar, but I wait until the next turn to start dredging since he has wasteland.  He knocks me to 12 then off the races I go, I manage to mill a bloodghasts, 2 narcoembas, and both my bridges into the yard.  He starts to ramp smokestack and plays a second mishra's factory.  I get him to 9 before the smokestack locks starts to board sweep me every turn, but with dakmor salvage and 3 bloodghasts in the yard at that point I know I have him.
Game 2 - He leads off with double needle on bazaar and a cage.  I lead with bob, followed by divining witch, laboratory maniac, and win.
Record 1-1

Round 3 against ??? (sorry I forgot to write down names) on Golden Gun Oath
Game 1 - I start dredging, therapy his counter spells away, and combo off.
Game 2 - He plays out a bunch of hate cards and I proceed to aggro him down with first turn black lotus into narcomoeba and bloodghast.
Record 2-1

Round 4 There can only be one dredge player! against Mark Hornung on Always Sunny Dredge
Game 1 - He wins the die roll.  He keeps a 1 bazaar dredger hand and I keep a hand with 2 bazaar and fast mana, but no dredger.  We both start milling our libraries and on his turn 3 he  is unable to find flamekin zealot to swing for the win.  So he has to pass the turn back... and I never give it back to him.
Game 2 - He is on the play again.  He keeps a 1 bazaar 1 dredger hand and I keep a 2 bazaar no dredger hand... He can't hit another dredger.  I combo off on turn 2.
Record 3-1

Round 5 We ID into top 8, but play it out anyway against ??? (sorry again should've written down names) on RUG delver
Game 1 - I go all dredge on him and combo out.
Game 2 - He plays first turn delver, turn 3 goyf.  I manage to stabilize at 11 life with stinkweed imps.  I start taking a over the game by card advantaging with skull clamp, but I also drop to 9 from fetch lands.  I had already therapied 1 lightning bolt away so I felt safe, but he manages to lightning bolt 3 consecutive turns killing me 1 turn before I could combo off.
Game 3 - He plays turn 1 delver, turn 2 delver, and turn 3 goyf.  I miss play and play a liliana into a force that he flipped with delver instead of therapying it costing me any chance I had to stabilize.
Record 3-1-1 (3-2)

Quarterfinals against Paul Mastriano on Esper Control
Game 1 - I dredge, therapy, win.  Although he does give me a little scare as he is able to get out a BSC and was 1 mana from time walking for the win.
Game 2 - He drops early hate and paths my divining witch.  Then he proceeds to go broken at some point in the game before I can aggro him out.
Game 3 - He plays 2 cages in the first couple turns of the game, locking him out of tinker on top of me being locked out of my graveyard.  This ends up costing him as I play a 1 power creature pretty much every turn of the game, and widdle away his life total while he scrambles to try and find a way out of the situation he put himself into.

Semifinals against Mark Kinney on Grixis Artifact Control
Game 1 - I dredge, therapy, win.  However, he was 1 artifact away from ultimating his Tezzeret agent of bolas for the win.
Game 2 - I don't think he put in any dredge hate, not sure though, and he just blows my transformation out of the water with his superior cards.  I let him durdle around for like an extra 10/15 minutes after the game was over before scooping since he looked like he was enjoying himself.
Game 3 - We spend about 10 minutes sideboarding and staring at each other trying to figure out what each other are boarding into.  I stay go with dredge, he puts me on dredge, but he keeps a hand with no first turn hate and I combo him out on turn 3.

Finals against I thought Justin Kohler was knocked out of this tournament, Matt Murray on UW Bomberman
Game 1 - We both mulligan to 5.  He first turn grafdigger's cage on me.  I cast a couple creatures, he casts a Jace.  I scoop.
Game 2 - I can't find mana in any of hands and end up mulliganing to a 4 card 1 land hand.  He mulligans to 6 and plays tormod's and rest in peace on turn 1.  Followed by turn 2 Jace.  Game over.  Congratulations to Matt on the victory though!

A big thanks to Shawn Griffiths as always for making my dreams into reality!

Overall I'm extremely happy with how the deck worked out.  I hadn't play tested it enough to know how it would play, but it seemed to do well against a pretty broad field.  The only card I really hated was Skullclamp since it is shut off by leyline and rest in peace.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 10:43:23 am by vaughnbros » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2013, 11:02:16 am »

Congrats Lance, I love how the title of the discussion we had of the deck was "Cuz I know you love some janky Dredge decks" but you managed to make it to the finals! Congrats again.
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« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2013, 12:12:23 am »

Lance,
You said you were unhappy with the Skullclamps in your sideboard.
Would Demonic Consultation, Demonic Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor fill those spots?
They would help you find the Combo, one of them can be the 5th Divining Witch.
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« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2013, 10:18:46 am »

Lance,
You said you were unhappy with the Skullclamps in your sideboard.
Would Demonic Consultation, Demonic Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor fill those spots?
They would help you find the Combo, one of them can be the 5th Divining Witch.

Tutors are far too slow to use with Divining witch.  The combo already takes quite a few turns to execute and adding another to it makes it unreasonable.

I replaced them with doomsday.  The main doomsday pile is as follows...
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Laboratory Maniac

If you already have any of those pieces you can replace them with mental missteps/therapies.
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« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2013, 08:55:48 pm »

Lance, regarding your list without Troll, the one I call "Black Plague", what cards could go in the spot of Mental Misstep, other than Dread Return and Targets? I would like to know your input on this as I think Contagion may need to be brought back with the rise of BUG Fish and Deathrite Shaman. Being a 1/2 kinda laughs at Darkblast, not to mention Contagion can shrink a Lodestone to a 1/1, which is easy to deal with.
Another idea I had was Slitherhead, while Game 1 it increases clock with counters, pitches to Ichorid and Unmask. During PostBoard games it is a 1 drop that can help if dealt with, also makes Tokens able to trade with Lodestone.
Chain of Vapor allows for more anti hate.
City of Brass could be moved to the main, opening 4 Sideboard Slots.
It could also be +1 Darkblast, +1 Leyline of the Void, +2 Dakmor Salvage.
I'm just spitballing ideas, I'd like your input on them.
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« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2013, 09:23:47 pm »

Lance, regarding your list without Troll, the one I call "Black Plague", what cards could go in the spot of Mental Misstep, other than Dread Return and Targets?

Fatestichers, ancestral, black lotus, mox jet, mox sapphire, nature's claim, firestorm... there are a number of decent options to replace them, but contagion is not one of them.  Run firestorm if you are that afraid of creatures.

Another idea I had was Slitherhead, while Game 1 it increases clock with counters, pitches to Ichorid and Unmask. During PostBoard games it is a 1 drop that can help if dealt with, also makes Tokens able to trade with Lodestone.

I don't think a 1/1 vanilla and/or a single +1/+1 counter really going to have much impact on a game of vintage.  You are much better off playing higher impact cards.

Chain of Vapor allows for more anti hate.

It doesn't do enough to cage, rest in peace, 1 shotters or jailor, which encompasses pretty much every hate card except leyline...

City of Brass could be moved to the main, opening 4 Sideboard Slots.
It could also be +1 Darkblast, +1 Leyline of the Void, +2 Dakmor Salvage..

Why?  The deck is already at its threshold for dredgers you don't need to add more dredge 2 and dredge 3 cards.
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« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2013, 09:34:46 pm »

Well I'm looking to optimize this list for Philly in November. Firestorm does seem nice, I would have to pick them up. Unless I run Nature's Claim in the main to hit opponent's main deck Leylines. Or keep Mental Misstep main. It hits so many things, but is inherently dead to Workshops. Unless you truly feel that 2 Dread Return, FKZ and 1 other card should be in those slots. I am unsure about Dread Return without Troll, having ONLY FKZ as a true target. I'm asking you because you are a very good Dredge player.
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« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2013, 11:28:38 pm »

I'd like to ask everyone this question,
In a metagame filled with Blue Control, Fish and some Workshops, what is the optimal Dredge list? Should it have disruption, or go straight for speed? Also, if Dread Return is used, how effective is Elesh Norn? Is it worth the slot in the board or should that go for more anti hate?
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