Dredge

[vaughnbros]

Due to the lack of knowledge of many players about this archetype.  I thought I would write a more current primer on the deck.  

Everyone knows the general idea behind the deck.  It all revolves around this guy...



Building and Evaluating Dredge Decklists

Building the Main Deck

The stock shell that nearly every dredge deck must abide by...


The Dredgers
12-14 Dredgers

The Engine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

The Win
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

The Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy

Everything else is optional.  When choosing these optional cards as a dredge player you have to look at your meta game and the decks that can beat you game 1.  They are by far the most dangerous as it is unreasonable to expect to win a large number of game 2/3's.  Depending on which of these decks you expect to see in a particular tournament can make choosing these card choices easy.  These most dangerous game fall into the following three categories...

1.  Workshops.  (i.e. Martello, Terra Nova, Espresso)
2.  Early combo decks.  (i.e. Burning long, Doomsday, Belcher)
3.  Decks with main deck hate. (i.e. Noble Fish, Bomberman, Dark Times)

The following are main deck card choices that help you in these match ups.  

For workshops you need to increase resilience...
Petrified Fieldgives you two extra land drops, and an extra bazaar on turn 3.
Bloodghast and a 4th Ichorid give you the extra bodies you need to win in this match up.
Ingot Chewer and the land to cast it.  Blowing something up and activating bridges is almost always relevant.
Leyline of the Void allows you to stay aggressive with your creatures and protects your bridges from metamorph/forgemaster.


For early combo decks you need to...

Increase speed
Dredge Return + Targets usually increases your clock speed enough to race them.
Fatestitcher gives you an extra bazaar activation on turn 2.
Petrified Field gives you an extra bazaar activation on turn 3.
Power and Lion's Eye Diamond free mana allows you to activate fatestitchers, therapies, and other great effects on turn 1 with your bazaar.

or

Increase disruption
Unmask at its very best it take the linch pin of their hand instantly win the game, and at its very worst you get to see their hand and stop them from turn 1 comboing you.
Chalice of the Void stops fast mana, which most of these decks rely on.
Force of Will if well timed can win the game and can usually at least buy a turn.
Mental Misstep can cripple them by hitting a mana source or tutor.
Leyline of the Void stops yawgmoth's will.
Leyline of Sanctity protects you from tendrils, grapeshot, brain freeze, belcher, and the like.


For decks with main deck hate depending on what they are packing...
Unmask takes the hate card straight from their hand.
Force of Will counters any non leyline hate card.
Mental Misstep counters grafdigger's cage, nihil spellbomb, and tutors.
Lands to cast them and...
Chain of Vapor answers any permanent based hate except.
Nature's Claim answers any permanent based hate except Yixlid Jailer.
Ingot Chewer answers grafdigger's cage and pithing needle.
Wispmare answers Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace.

Increasing speed and disruption also helps to improve match ups outside of the big three.  So these typically fill the most slots in any particular dredge build.



Building a sideboard

Here's a list of the hate you will see in a typical meta game and conventionally playable answers.      

Leyline of the Void answered by...  Nature's Claim, Wispmare, Chain of Vapor, and Serenity

Everything can be answered by Cabal Therapy, Unmask, and Force of will as well as the cards I mention.

Yixlid Jailer answered by... Darkblast, Firestorm, and Chain of Vapor

Grafdigger's Cage answered by...  Nature's Claim, Ingot Chewer, Mental Misstep, Chain of Vapor, and Serenity

Pithing Needle answered by...  Nature's Claim, Ingot Chewer, Mental Misstep, Chain of Vapor, and Serenity

Rest in Peace answered by...  Nature's Claim, Wispmare, Chain of Vapor, and Serenity

Nihil Spellbomb answered by... Mental Misstep, Pithing Needle, and Leyline of Sanctity

Relic of Progenitus answered by... Mental Misstep, and Pithing Needle

Tormod's Crypt answered by... Chalice of the Void, Pithing Needle, and Leyline of Sanctity

Ravenous Trap answered by... Leyline of Sanctity

Depending on what hate you expect to see you can refer to this chart to build your sideboard.  Depending on how much mana you choose to run in your main deck you will also need to play some lands.

Options for lands.

Rainbow
City of Brass
Undiscovered Paradise
Gemstone Mine
Tarnished Citadel

From the graveyard
Dakmor Salvage

Lets bazaar tap for mana
Riftstone Portal
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Bonus Land Drops
Petrified Field
Undiscovered Paradise
Dimir Aqueduct

Whether you are looking for disruptions, anti-hate, or extra speed this should give you a pretty good outline of every traditional card that a dredge player has access to and needs to worry about.  Other than if you wanted to play a sideboard transformation.

Now to see how these cards look together...

Here's my current list...

Main Deck:

The Stock Pieces
The Win
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba

The Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy

The Engine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

13 Dredgers
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Darkblast
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

The optional choices
More Disruption
4 Unmask
4 Mental Misstep
3 Leyline of the Void

Near Unlimited Bodies Package
4 Bloodghast
4 Petrified Field
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:
Anti-Leyline
3 Wispmare

Anti-Cage
4 Ingot Chewer

Anti-Cage and Leyline
4 Nature’s Claim

Extra Land
4 City of Brass

This build focuses on using its extra disruption pieces, Misstep, Unmask, and Leyline, to win game 1 against decks that cast relevant spells.  In the other match ups petrified fields helps against wastelands and leylines prevent you from losing your bridges.  It also notably is not playing Golgari Grave Troll.  For two reasons he is not black and he is not hard cast able.  Nothing special out of the sideboard.

The most current Sun Titan list...

Main Deck:

The Stock Pieces
The Win
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba

The Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy

The Engine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

13 Dredgers
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

The optional choices
More Speed
2 Dread Return
1 Sun Titan
1 Fatestitcher
1 Flame-kin Zealot

Answers
4 Nature’s Claim

Near Unlimited Bodies Package
4 Bloodghast
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Petrified Field
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:
Anti-Mirror
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Anti-Leyline
2 Wispmare

Anti-Everything
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Unmask

Anti-Jailer
1 Darkblast
2 Firestorm

Anti-Cage
4 Ingot Chewer

This build focuses on using dread return to win on turn 2 or 3.  In the main deck a play set of claims and 9 rainbow lands should help protect against any main deck graveyard hate.  There are two notable sideboard cards, firestorm and Elesh Norn.  Elesh Norn provides the deck with a more auto-win dread return target against create based decks.  Firestorm gives the deck an alternate way to get dredgers in the graveyard as well as protect from Magus of the Moon and Jailer.

You may also have noticed that both of the above decks are running multiple cards in the main deck to combat the each of the three major threats.

Most other builds of dredge will fall somewhere in between these two in the amount of disruption and added speed elements that they choose to run.





Playing Dredge

Regardless of the build the general game plan is always the same.  Game 1 you mulligan to bazaar, play bazaar and proceed to win.  Game 2/3 you attempt to play through a ton of graveyard hate.

Game 1

This is generally just auto pilot.  
     1. Using serum powder whenever possible, mulligan to Bazaar of Baghdad.
     2. Play Bazaar of Baghdad.
     3. Play your disruption, don't miss triggers, and create a massive army of zombies to swing for the win.

To elaborate a little more on step 3.  What you do largely depends on what other cards you choose to run in your build.  However independent of your build the follow is some general advice...

Main phase your first Bazaar activation before you do anything.  This allows you to see your options for turn 1 and beyond as well as cast any Unmasks, Chalice of the Voids, and artifact mana you top deck.  The only real exception here is if you have LED in your opening hand.

On your first discard the optimal three to drop are your 2 biggest dredgers and 1 Ichorid.  The last cards you want to pitch on turn 1 are lands, therapy and bridge.  This is because therapy is castable in game 1 and bridge can be exiled by sorcery speed effects like phyrexian metamorph.

Upkeep activate the next couple bazaar activations.  This allows you to use ichorid post dredging as well as maximizing the chances you have to never miss a dredge opportunity.

Blind therapy of relevant cards.  This means dark ritual, phyrexian metamorph, or if your going for dread return plan counterspells/spheres.  Remember or write down what you see and make sure your actually hitting relevant cards after you know whats there.

Don't dredge too much.  You don't ever want to lose to a couple standstill activations or an ancestral recall.

It's okay to not attack in order to keep bridges alive, but you still have to be the aggressor.  This means you probably shouldn't be attacking if you can only attack with 1 or 2 guys and they have a blocker.  However, if you have 5 or more guys to attack with forget about the bridges and get in there.  Along these same lines 1st main phase therapy is usually a pretty good idea before an attack.

Last of all take your time.  Speeding through games can easily cause you to miss triggers.



Game 2/3

If you're playing against doomsday, burning long, belcher or another early combo deck please refer to Game 1 again.  You need to win quickly against them and can't afford to sacrifice disruption or speed by sideboarding or playing differently.  Otherwise these are the hard games that can usually be pretty awkward and almost always extremely fun to play.  

Sideboarding

Sideboarding In

For game 2 you want to go by what colors and cards you saw in game 1 and board in the answers for those cards...

If you see black you should expect to see Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer.
If you don't see black you should expect to see Grafdigger's Cage.
If you see white you should also expect to see Rest in Peace.

For game 3 you should be able to sideboard for what hate you encountered in game 2.

Sideboarding Out

This depends on what extra cards you are playing in your dredge list and how many cards you are sideboarding in, but a quick outline of cards that are usually taken out goes as follows...

1.  Take out any of your irrelevant removal and disruption.  Against workshops typically that means cabal therapy, and all your other disruption cards.  Against a black deck take out your ingot chewers.  So on so forth.

2.  If your playing them take out your petrified fields against decks without wasteland.

3.  If your playing it take out your dread return package.



Mulliganing

The only big thing you have in your control is what opener to keep.  If you don't have one of these two major things you should most likely be mulliganing...

1. If you have Bazaar of Baghdad.  You can almost always dig for whatever you need in a particular game if you have this card.  Not to mention if your opponent keeps a hand without hate you should be able to get an easy win.
    
2. If you have a decent number of cast able cards in your hand and the mana to cast them.
      
Some sample hands of this...

1 Dakmor Salvage 1 City of Brass 2 Bloodghast 1 Golgari Thug 1 Unmask 1 Bridge from Below

This gives you turn 1.  Dakmor Salvage and Unmask.
Then turn 2 you can start your aggro plan by casting Bloodghasts, and Golgari Thug to start the beat down.

1 Petrified Field 1 City of Brass 2 Cabal Therapy 1 Narcomoeba 1 Ingot Chewer 1 Nature's Claim

This gives you the option of therapying turn 1, 2, and possibly 3.
You also have removal for some of their threats/gy hate.

1 Undiscovered Paradise 1 Unmask 1 Bridge From Below 1 Cabal Therapy 1 Darkblast 1 Narcomoeba 1 Stinkweed Imp

You have turn 1 Unmask and therapy.  This should be able to devastate their hand.
If they drop a creature you can  start darkblasting to kill it and/or dredge.
If you top deck mana you can cast your Narcomoeba and Stinkweed Imp.

1 Petrified Field 1 Undiscovered Paradise 1 Golgari Thug 1 Stinkweed Imp 1 Darkblast 1 Nature's Claim 1 Ingot Chewer

Turn 1 you have access to a variety of removal spells.  You can also aggro them with thug, or slow dredge by Darkblasting your own thug.



Playing the Game

This is largely dependent on the hand that you keep, and what your opponent plays on you.  No matter what though your game plan is always to get creatures out and attack.  You have two ways of doing this.
     Plan A.  Use bazaar to get "free" creatures.
     Plan B.  Play mana producing lands and hard cast creatures.

If your opponent doesn't play any hate or you can answer what hate they play then use Plan A.  Otherwise resort to plan B, but if the opportunity presents itself you should always transition into Plan A.  

Playing through the Hate

A few strategies for how to play through some of the hate cards without just destroying them.  Depending on the type of graveyard hate the hard cast strategy will have varying degrees of success.  The card it works best against though is...



This is probably the most played hate card out there now.  You should expect to see it and see it a lot.  The good thing is it is not a death nail.

Let's go over what the card does in regards to this deck.
   1. You can't get Narcomoebas, Bloodghasts, and Ichorids for "free".
   2. You can't cast Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, or anything else from your graveyard.

Two notable things it does not do.
   1.  It does not prevent Bridge from Below from working.
   2.  It does not prevent dredge from working.

This means you can still gain significant value out of Dakmor salvage, Golgari Thug, Stinkweed Imp, and Darkblast.  Also if at any point you remove the cage you should instantly be in a position to win the game.

So some broken things that this still allows you to do...

Near Infinite Removal

This helps you beat any deck that is relying on attack with creatures in order to win, namely fish and workshops.  

In addition to dredge, stinkweed imp has both death touch and flying.  Or in other words he trades with pretty much every creature in vintage, except thalia and blightsteel.  You also have darkblast though, which can deal with most non-combat creatures, i.e. bob, welder, and noble hierarch, and even some combat ones, like thalia, snapcaster, and unflipped delver.

You also have a little bit of a combo available to get back removal for that cage.  It revolves around this guy.



Play the thug, then darkblast him or if your lucky your opponent will let you chump block with him.  His ability will trigger.  Now you get to place a creature from your graveyard on top of your library.  If you have an ingot chewer you can get that back.  Now you have removal for that cage.

Near Infinite Creatures

This helps you beat any control deck, like landstill.

You have 4 narcoemebas and 4 bloodghasts.  Also depending on the build you typically have 6-8 creatures that you can dredge back that are cast-able.  That's 14-16 creatures and you can also dredge back almost half of them.  So you should always be able to have a creature available to you.

Your creatures are also very removal resistant.  Not only do you have dredge creatures, but Golgari Thug's ability helps to recur non dredgers.  Even more importantly though you have Bridge from Below.  The card swings a board sweeper from being a devastating blow into being a bonus.  You also have the option to darkblast your own creatures, like thug, to continue to generate more and more zombies.



One shot graveyard removers

This includes tormod's crypt, relic of progenitus, nihil spellbomb, and ravenous trap.  As long as you play your cards right your opponent is going to need more than these to beat you.

Triggers, triggers, triggers.  These are what are going to force your opponent to use that one shotter.  Here's the triggers you have access to in order of which ones you want to use first in such a scenario:
    1. Triggering a bloodghast or ichorid since they don't require you to put more cards in the yard.  
    2. Triggering a bridge from below since you usually only have to sacrifice one creature in order to pull it off.  
    3.  Lastly triggering a narcoemeba since you usually need to blind dredge into it.

Against one shotters you generally don't want to use bazaar if you don't have to.  Slow dredging is usually a much safer approach as you get to return dredge cards to your hand when using them.  If you do have to use bazaar  though don't go all in.  Be sure to hold as many good cards as you can.



Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace.

You only have two options to beat these, hard cast creatures and enchantment removal.   If you can't do either of these playing against them really comes down to when to use Bazaar and what to discard to it.

You only want to use Bazaar when you have at least two disposable cards in hand.  When you can start hard casting creatures extra lands and serum powders are really the only disposable cards.  Otherwise my discard priority list usually goes as follows...
   1.  Serum Powder.
   2.  Any extra bazaars and mana producing lands past the 3rd.
   2.  Narcomoeba.
   3.  Dredgers past the 2nd.
   4.  Artifact and creature removal.  (Chain of Vapor against rest in peace)
   5.  Bloodghasts, ichorids, and bridges.
   6.  Dredgers.
   7.  Discard effects and counter spells.




Conclusion

If you've never tried playing the deck I strongly suggest you do.  It requires much more thought and interaction than just flipping your deck into your graveyard and attacking.  As a vintage player that has played decks from every archetype I have to say the game 2 and 3's with dredge can be the most difficult thought provoking games you will ever play with any deck.  I hope that this helps to educate anyone who reads it about this archetype.

[vaughnbros]

OP is finished.  For anyone that decides to read it thank you and I hope you enjoy.  Also if anyone has any questions or notices anything missing please let me know.

[msg67183]

Great read Lance! Keep up the good working with the Dredging!

[msg67183]

Lance,

I've noticed that your list is insanely consistent and just blows people out of the water.

Some flaws I've noticed:
It loses to BSC because there is no answer to him,
Same with Elesh Norn and Griselbrand.

I'm not sure what can be done to fix this, I was thinking of trying to squeeze Chain of Vapor in somewhere, possibly replacing Wispmare?
Let me know what you think.

[Twaun007]

Thanks for the sweet post! It makes me want to sleeve up dredge again for some local events.

[mr.grim]

This was a real nice read.

[msg67183]

Thanks for the sweet post! It makes me want to sleeve up dredge again for some local events.

Yes! You should play it in Bloomsburg on March 2nd!!!

Have you considered what list of Dredge?

I do suggest Lance's build, it may look "unorthodox" but it is very strong.

[KIP_NZ]

Here's my current list...

Main Deck:

The Stock Pieces
The Win
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba

The Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy

The Engine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

13 Dredgers
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Darkblast
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

The optional choices
More Disruption
4 Unmask
4 Mental Misstep
3 Leyline of the Void

Near Unlimited Bodies Package
4 Bloodghast
4 Petrified Field
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:
Anti-Leyline
3 Wispmare

Anti-Cage
4 Ingot Chewer

Anti-Cage and Leyline
4 Nature’s Claim

Extra Land
4 City of Brass

Hi,
I have to question the 4 Ichorid's and only 8 removal targets, why are you not running 2 Thugs as removal targets / infinite cage busters (I actually run chewers MD) rather than the Salvage? If you ran the thugs it would give you 2 more removal targets without chewing into your Stinkweed Imp's?

[msg67183]

The list runs 4 Golgari Thug.....

[marcb]

This list runs 0 grave troll?! That's worth discussing. The downside is no 6 dredger and no DR target if you wanted for post board games. The advantage is more black creatures for I horrid and more thug to interact with ingot chewer for cage.

Other people's thoughts?

Marc

Posted from my I-phone.

[msg67183]

This list runs 0 grave troll?! That's worth discussing. The downside is no 6 dredger and no DR target if you wanted for post board games. The advantage is more black creatures for I horrid and more thug to interact with ingot chewer for cage.

Other people's thoughts?

Marc

Posted from my I-phone.

I thought the lack of Troll would slow the deck down before I started testing it, but after my testing I found he isn't needed. Game 2 and 3 you are generally hard casting dudes and 4 Thug make that plan a reality.

I also thought that only 3 Leyline was bad, but it's not as bad as I thought. You don't necessarily need it game 1 and the only true matchups it is needed in is Dredge, which you can mulligan to it.

[aahz]

It's always nice to see Dredge given the respect and discussion it deserves as a legitimate Vintage pillar. A lot of players don't seem to understand how customizable Dredge really is. For those who like reading about metagaming and tweaking the deck, I encourage you to check out a tournament report I wrote for Eternal Central a few months back. It didn't get advertised very much (and therefore I suspect it flew under many peoples' radar), so this seems like the perfect opportunity to promote it. I spent much time discussing the thought process that went into my build that won the event, as well as detailed notes about interesting game situations and analysis of mistakes I made. Hopefully, other Dredge pilots, particularly those just starting out, will find it enlightening. [/shameless plug]

I thought the lack of Troll would slow the deck down before I started testing it, but after my testing I found he isn't needed. Game 2 and 3 you are generally hard casting dudes and 4 Thug make that plan a reality.

I also thought that only 3 Leyline was bad, but it's not as bad as I thought. You don't necessarily need it game 1 and the only true matchups it is needed in is Dredge, which you can mulligan to it.

The list in the OP is very interesting and does a good job of highlighting the diversity of possible builds. I'm not sure what to make of the lack of Troll though. My gut reaction that removing Troll is wrong, but I have no testing to back that up. However, kudos to the creator for thinking outside the box and trying new things. My current working build is down to 3 Leyline of the Void as well, though it is way more toolboxy and my sideboard is heavily anti-combo. While this build does look very consistent and robust, it also looks slower than even the standard DR-less versions. In the current environment, I'd be very worried about trying to grind out game ones, though I suppose such a list (particularly 4xIchorid) might be surprisingly good versus Shops.

What turn do you usually kill in game 1? Do you find that the disruption package is sufficient to slow your opponent enough in game 1 to fight a really early BSC, Vault/Key, or (especially) Tendrils?

[msg67183]

Lance can probably elaborate on this, but the disruption combination (therapy, unmask, misstep) make combo matchups really fun in the very least, it's not a complete blowout though.
The Shops matchup is good, especially with 4 Ichorid.
Wasteland decks in general seem "easy" in the sense that they aren't broken so you have time to do stuff.

[aahz]

Yeah, I like Unmask a lot. I go back and forth on Mental Misstep. It's fun to play with, but it feels like it's more cute than necessary. Recently, I've been liking extra speed main for racing broken stuff (and decks that skimp on hate). Decks that can't go broken tend to not do too well (Landstill excepted, but in that case it's especially good at stopping brokenness). Dredge doesn't seem great at stopping broken plays from other decks, which is why I asked about the disruption. Mental Misstep is the only thing you can do on the draw turn 1. As a result, I prefer to be able to kill ASAP. Sure, sometimes you die on turn 1 because you don't run Force, but I want to be able to race a turn 1/2 Blightsteel. That seems extremely tough without Grave-trolls and Dread Return. 

[vaughnbros]

Lance,

I've noticed that your list is insanely consistent and just blows people out of the water.

I don't know about blows people out of the water, but I agree it is very consistent.  It's the only list that I've played in a tournament where after I didn't want to change a single card in it.  I'd see it as very near optimal for a dreadless dredge build.

Some flaws I've noticed:
It loses to BSC because there is no answer to him,
Same with Elesh Norn and Griselbrand.

In the 1 tournament I played with this I beat a swinging BSC multiple times.  You can always buy at least 1 turn by blocking it with a zombie.

Thanks for the sweet post! It makes me want to sleeve up dredge again for some local events.

This was a real nice read.

Thank you both.  I'm glad you enjoyed it.

This list runs 0 grave troll?! That's worth discussing. The downside is no 6 dredger and no DR target if you wanted for post board games. The advantage is more black creatures for I horrid and more thug to interact with ingot chewer for cage.

Yeh I've actually been cutting Grave-Troll for a little while now from my dredge lists. While he does dredge better than everything else that is the only function he realistically serves.  As a result against hate he becomes a major liability.  All of my dredger choices imp, thug, dakmor salvage, and darkblast help with the hard cast strategy for games 2 and 3.  They all also have unique advantages over troll.  Salvage helps to guarantee bloodghast triggers.  Darkblast kills Yixlid Jailers and can be pitched to unmask.  Imp and thug can both be pitched to ichorid and unmask.  

It's always nice to see Dredge given the respect and discussion it deserves as a legitimate Vintage pillar. A lot of players don't seem to understand how customizable Dredge really is. For those who like reading about metagaming and tweaking the deck, I encourage you to check out a tournament report I wrote for Eternal Central a few months back. It didn't get advertised very much (and therefore I suspect it flew under many peoples' radar), so this seems like the perfect opportunity to promote it. I spent much time discussing the thought process that went into my build that won the event, as well as detailed notes about interesting game situations and analysis of mistakes I made. Hopefully, other Dredge pilots, particularly those just starting out, will find it enlightening. [/shameless plug]

This is exactly what I was trying to do.  I was hoping to spark the same legitimate discussion and respect as every other pillar in the format is given.

What turn do you usually kill in game 1?  

As far as physically killing its opponent I'd say its almost always a turn 3/4 kill.  Only in extreme variance situations is it slower or faster than this.  After thrashing an opponents hand with unmask into multiple therapies the game is basically over.  

Do you find that the disruption package is sufficient to slow your opponent enough in game 1 to fight a really early BSC, Vault/Key, or (especially) Tendrils?

Almost every hand ends up having unmask, misstep, or leyline.   With such a quick clock throwing even the smallest wrench can usually slow your opponent enough.  I find due to running this disruption my win percentage is higher against tendrils lists than the dread return lists.  In my only tournament with this list I played against combo three times, beating two burning long decks and losing against doomsday due to a mulligan to 1 in game 3.

Yeah, I like Unmask a lot. I go back and forth on Mental Misstep. It's fun to play with, but it feels like it's more cute than necessary. Recently, I've been liking extra speed main for racing broken stuff (and decks that skimp on hate). Decks that can't go broken tend to not do too well (Landstill excepted, but in that case it's especially good at stopping brokenness). Dredge doesn't seem great at stopping broken plays from other decks, which is why I asked about the disruption.

I'm not quite sure why you think this version can't go broken.  There are pretty common broken lines of play.  One of the best being. Turn 1 bazaar, unmask.  Turn 2 Land, Hard cast therapy, Flashback therapy.

Mental Misstep is the only thing you can do on the draw turn 1. As a result, I prefer to be able to kill ASAP. Sure, sometimes you die on turn 1 because you don't run Force, but I want to be able to race a turn 1/2 Blightsteel. That seems extremely tough without Grave-trolls and Dread Return.  

It's only about 1 turn slower against a goldfish.  Dredging 1 or 2 extra cards off grave-troll doesn't add as much speed as you'd think.  As for dread return you can certainly play it over the missteps in my version, but I prefered missteps because of their ability to counter grafdigger's cage and dark ritual.  

[aahz]

It's always nice to see Dredge given the respect and discussion it deserves as a legitimate Vintage pillar. A lot of players don't seem to understand how customizable Dredge really is. For those who like reading about metagaming and tweaking the deck, I encourage you to check out a tournament report I wrote for Eternal Central a few months back. It didn't get advertised very much (and therefore I suspect it flew under many peoples' radar), so this seems like the perfect opportunity to promote it. I spent much time discussing the thought process that went into my build that won the event, as well as detailed notes about interesting game situations and analysis of mistakes I made. Hopefully, other Dredge pilots, particularly those just starting out, will find it enlightening. [/shameless plug]

This is exactly what I was trying to do.  I was hoping to spark the same legitimate discussion and respect as every other pillar in the format is given.

Word. Keep fighting the good fight.

I don't know about blows people out of the water, but I agree it is very consistent.  It's the only list that I've played in a tournament where after I didn't want to change a single card in it.  I'd see it as very near optimal for a dreadless dredge build.

I really like your DR-less list in the current meta with the resurgence of fast and broken decks that would rather race dredge than hate it. Loading up on Darkblast is something I can definitely get behind. I've never understood why it does see more play. I always run at least 2 copies because it has so much utility, even outside of dealing with Jailer. The more I think about it, the more cutting Grave-troll makes sense in the context of your other card choices: being Black for Ichorid/Unmask is at a premium, as is slow/controlled dredging to not overextend into hate, while the added benefit of being a fatty to reanimate is absent without DR.

Random thought: maybe it's correct to board out at least some Grave-trolls under certain circumstances.

Almost every hand ends up having unmask, misstep, or leyline.   With such a quick clock throwing even the smallest wrench can usually slow your opponent enough.  I find due to running this disruption my win percentage is higher against tendrils lists than the dread return lists.  In my only tournament with this list I played against combo three times, beating two burning long decks and losing against doomsday due to a mulligan to 1 in game 3.

It's only about 1 turn slower against a goldfish.  Dredging 1 or 2 extra cards off grave-troll doesn't add as much speed as you'd think.  As for dread return you can certainly play it over the missteps in my version, but I prefered missteps because of their ability to counter grafdigger's cage and dark ritual. 

Maybe I'll give Misstep another chance with a similar disruption package to yours. I'm curious specifically about the Burning Long matchup. I have smmenen in my meta, so I foresee having to be ready for that deck (especially given that 25% of the meta was playing it at our last event; not sure I'm going to be playing dredge for a while as a result, but I still like to keep up the theorizing for any deck I might consider playing just in case). Have you played that matchup much? I'd love to hear more details about it.

I've been taking a slightly different approach: DR+Zealot+Griselbrand+Fatestitcher for speed coupled with Chalice of the Void, Unmask, and Leyline of Sanctity in the board. The jury is still out on the effectiveness of this strategy. It certainly doesn't make it lopsided in Dredge's favor (or even particularly favorable), so I'm always keep an eye out for better ideas.

I still think I prefer DR right now, but I understand the reasoning for your direction. It's probably mostly a matter of personal playstyle. I get the impression that you approach post-board games differently than I do as well.

I'm still not convinced that you can adequately deal with broken openings, especially on the draw.

In the 1 tournament I played with this I beat a swinging BSC multiple times.  You can always buy at least 1 turn by blocking it with a zombie.

A turn 1 Tinker on the play won't let you do this unless with your build. Even turn 2 Tinker is still hard to race if you don't have the turn 3 kill (or have to forfeit it to not die to Blightsteel). It's reasonable to concede this situation (I sometimes do that with Wasteland by skimping on Petrified Fields when I don't expect a lot of Shops and/or Fishy decks).

As far as physically killing its opponent I'd say its almost always a turn 3/4 kill.  Only in extreme variance situations is it slower or faster than this.  After thrashing an opponents hand with unmask into multiple therapies the game is basically over.

They can still play out Key or Vault early then top deck perfectly post-discard (or just draw Tinker). I'm scared of not having the possibility of a turn 2 kill unless I'm packing real countermagic (Misstep is okay but is still situational).

I'm not quite sure why you think this version can't go broken.  There are pretty common broken lines of play.  One of the best being. Turn 1 bazaar, unmask.  Turn 2 Land, Hard cast therapy, Flashback therapy.

That doesn't win on Turn 2. It may usually seal the game in your favor, but this is Vintage and broken stuff happens. I'd rather be prepared for it. Not knocking your choices, just saying that I'm not entirely convinced.

[vaughnbros]

Almost every hand ends up having unmask, misstep, or leyline.   With such a quick clock throwing even the smallest wrench can usually slow your opponent enough.  I find due to running this disruption my win percentage is higher against tendrils lists than the dread return lists.  In my only tournament with this list I played against combo three times, beating two burning long decks and losing against doomsday due to a mulligan to 1 in game 3.

It's only about 1 turn slower against a goldfish.  Dredging 1 or 2 extra cards off grave-troll doesn't add as much speed as you'd think.  As for dread return you can certainly play it over the missteps in my version, but I prefered missteps because of their ability to counter grafdigger's cage and dark ritual. 

Maybe I'll give Misstep another chance with a similar disruption package to yours. I'm curious specifically about the Burning Long matchup. I have smmenen in my meta, so I foresee having to be ready for that deck (especially given that 25% of the meta was playing it at our last event; not sure I'm going to be playing dredge for a while as a result, but I still like to keep up the theorizing for any deck I might consider playing just in case). Have you played that matchup much? I'd love to hear more details about it.

I've been taking a slightly different approach: DR+Zealot+Griselbrand+Fatestitcher for speed coupled with Chalice of the Void, Unmask, and Leyline of Sanctity in the board. The jury is still out on the effectiveness of this strategy. It certainly doesn't make it lopsided in Dredge's favor (or even particularly favorable), so I'm always keep an eye out for better ideas.

I still think I prefer DR right now, but I understand the reasoning for your direction. It's probably mostly a matter of personal playstyle. I get the impression that you approach post-board games differently than I do as well.

I'm still not convinced that you can adequately deal with broken openings, especially on the draw.

In the 1 tournament I played with this I beat a swinging BSC multiple times.  You can always buy at least 1 turn by blocking it with a zombie.

A turn 1 Tinker on the play won't let you do this unless with your build. Even turn 2 Tinker is still hard to race if you don't have the turn 3 kill (or have to forfeit it to not die to Blightsteel). It's reasonable to concede this situation (I sometimes do that with Wasteland by skimping on Petrified Fields when I don't expect a lot of Shops and/or Fishy decks).

As far as physically killing its opponent I'd say its almost always a turn 3/4 kill.  Only in extreme variance situations is it slower or faster than this.  After thrashing an opponents hand with unmask into multiple therapies the game is basically over.

They can still play out Key or Vault early then top deck perfectly post-discard (or just draw Tinker). I'm scared of not having the possibility of a turn 2 kill unless I'm packing real countermagic (Misstep is okay but is still situational).

I'm not quite sure why you think this version can't go broken.  There are pretty common broken lines of play.  One of the best being. Turn 1 bazaar, unmask.  Turn 2 Land, Hard cast therapy, Flashback therapy.

That doesn't win on Turn 2. It may usually seal the game in your favor, but this is Vintage and broken stuff happens. I'd rather be prepared for it. Not knocking your choices, just saying that I'm not entirely convinced.

In any dredge deck there are always going to be windows of opportunity for your opponent to win game 1's against you.
Typically in my version those windows are turn 1 on the play and top decks.
Typically in the dread return builds I've seen lately its turn 1 and 2 on the play or turn 1 on the draw. 

Turn 1 broken openers on the play are a concession nearly every dredge list has to concede to unless you're running misstep and/or force.  I.e. Turn 1 tinker on the play is only answered by chain of vapor or a bazaar LED opener.

In the games Ive won against burning long its been missteps on rituals and unmasks stripping their linch pin card that have won it for me.

My build is built to win against a diverse meta.

If I were expecting burning long to be super popular at a tournament I'd definitely be running missteps, unmasks, then possibly forces with fatestichers and dread return.  Dread return helps you beat oath with no orchard, but that's about it.  They are so fast that if you don't interact with them you are going to lose.

You mentioned griselbrand.  Why him over Sun Titan? I've found he is almost always worse when going off.  Comparatively he costs life to go off, draws too many cards, and doesn't bring back bloodghasts.  The only real  bonus is he's a black creature.

[aahz]

In any dredge deck there are always going to be windows of opportunity for your opponent to win game 1's against you.
Typically in my version those windows are turn 1 on the play and top decks.
Typically in the dread return builds I've seen lately its turn 1 and 2 on the play or turn 1 on the draw. 

Turn 1 broken openers on the play are a concession nearly every dredge list has to concede to unless you're running misstep and/or force.  I.e. Turn 1 tinker on the play is only answered by chain of vapor or a bazaar LED opener.

Well said, though it should be pointed out that it's not just Dredge that concedes to broken T1s on the play, but rather any deck sans Force of Will, which includes Burning Long and Shops. Technically all of these decks have some responses as long as they don't lose immediately, but those are all situational (racing by killing on their own T1, bouncing BSC, Tangle Wire to buy time, etc.)

In the games Ive won against burning long its been missteps on rituals and unmasks stripping their linch pin card that have won it for me.

My build is built to win against a diverse meta.

If I were expecting burning long to be super popular at a tournament I'd definitely be running missteps, unmasks, then possibly forces with fatestichers and dread return.  Dread return helps you beat oath with no orchard, but that's about it.  They are so fast that if you don't interact with them you are going to lose.

The build I've been playing has Unmask, Leyline of Sanctity, and Chalice of the Void post-board vs. Burning Long (see my article for the decklist). Clearly Unmask is key (and I would probably run the 4th copy if I were to play this today). Leyline stops both Tendrils and Oath while coming online turn zero if I'm on the draw, which is why I like it. I should have enough disruption with Therapy and Unmask to start hitting back before they can remove/bounce it. Since smmenen's list leans so heavily on artifact mana to compete against Shops/Lodestone, Chalice can do a lot of heavy lifting by slowing the pace of the game to the speed of zombies (and is decent versus some other decks running full jewelry when I'm on the play post-board). Chalice is the most touchy because it's either awesome of it doesn't help and its potential is only fully realized on the play (so I only side it in accordingly). It's possible that running Misstep over Chalice might be reasonable, which is why I was interested in how Misstep was working out for you.

You mentioned griselbrand.  Why him over Sun Titan? I've found he is almost always worse when going off.  Comparatively he costs life to go off, draws too many cards, and doesn't bring back bloodghasts.  The only real  bonus is he's a black creature.

I actually agree with your general assessment, but there is one point you are missing. I concede that Sunny is better in a vacuum and much more versatile. The really important thing about Griselbrand is simply that he IS Griselbrand. There can be only one (in play). If I have him, the opponent doesn't. The Legend rule prevents an oathed up (or show and told) GrizzlyBargain from being activated as they both die before anyone gets priority. He might not be the right answer for you, but I've been seeing enough Oath into Griselbrand (Burning Long and otherwise) in my meta that I like having the potential answer available. In the majority of situations, Griselbrand does enough that he is roughly interchangable with Titan in terms of sealing the game in your favor (though he forces different lines of play). Additionally, the lifelink and flying can matter in certain situations. In other words, there are some cornercases where Titan is better (though to be fair the same is true of the handless demon), but in most games where either one enters play, either one will get the job done adequately if utilized correctly (it could perhaps be argued that Grizzly is harder to do this with however). I have been seeing more of the situations recently where Captain Hooks is better, so Little Miss Sunshine has been on the bench resting up. YMMV.

I like that in this discussion there often does not seem to be a clear "right" answer, at least in theoretical terms. And even if there are correct answers, they might change based on the metagame and situation. This is precisely the type of subtlety and nuance that Dredge doesn't get enough credit for having. It's like arguing about whether or not it's correct to run Fire/Ice over Lightning Bolt, REB over Flusterstorm, choice of artifact hate, etc. The answers depend on the context, and thus differ from place to place and person to person.

Cheers to you for engaging in the discussion. Le Roi est mort, vive le Zombi!

Speaking of black creatures, have you considered Street Wraith in your build? Seems like he might be good as he speeds you up, pitches to Unmask, and recurs Ichorid.

[msg67183]

Another black creature that could be considered is Slitherhead. Game 1 it increases your clock, exiles for Ichorid, or pitches to unmask. Games 2 and 3 it can do all these things AND be a 1 drop creature to beat with.

[vaughnbros]

In the games Ive won against burning long its been missteps on rituals and unmasks stripping their linch pin card that have won it for me.

My build is built to win against a diverse meta.

If I were expecting burning long to be super popular at a tournament I'd definitely be running missteps, unmasks, then possibly forces with fatestichers and dread return.  Dread return helps you beat oath with no orchard, but that's about it.  They are so fast that if you don't interact with them you are going to lose.

The build I've been playing has Unmask, Leyline of Sanctity, and Chalice of the Void post-board vs. Burning Long (see my article for the decklist). Clearly Unmask is key (and I would probably run the 4th copy if I were to play this today). Leyline stops both Tendrils and Oath while coming online turn zero if I'm on the draw, which is why I like it. I should have enough disruption with Therapy and Unmask to start hitting back before they can remove/bounce it. Since smmenen's list leans so heavily on artifact mana to compete against Shops/Lodestone, Chalice can do a lot of heavy lifting by slowing the pace of the game to the speed of zombies (and is decent versus some other decks running full jewelry when I'm on the play post-board). Chalice is the most touchy because it's either awesome of it doesn't help and its potential is only fully realized on the play (so I only side it in accordingly). It's possible that running Misstep over Chalice might be reasonable, which is why I was interested in how Misstep was working out for you.

Yeh Leyline of Sanctity does seem really amazing against burning long now that you elaborate on it.  Shutting off both of the decks primary win cons turn 0 is impressive.

I think the chalice vs. mental misstep question really comes down to if you want to play a higher variance or lower variance card.  Mental misstep will almost always have an impact on burning long by hitting a tutor, ritual, sol ring, or mana vault, but misstep only hits 1 card.  Whereas chalice of the void can either be a blow out or a do nothing card.  I personally prefer the consistency.

If you still want to improve against burning long I would think about main decking leyline, unmask, and misstep.  I still don't think you necessarily need nature's claims or the return package.

I actually agree with your general assessment, but there is one point you are missing. I concede that Sunny is better in a vacuum and much more versatile. The really important thing about Griselbrand is simply that he IS Griselbrand. There can be only one (in play). If I have him, the opponent doesn't. The Legend rule prevents an oathed up (or show and told) GrizzlyBargain from being activated as they both die before anyone gets priority. He might not be the right answer for you, but I've been seeing enough Oath into Griselbrand (Burning Long and otherwise) in my meta that I like having the potential answer available. In the majority of situations, Griselbrand does enough that he is roughly interchangable with Titan in terms of sealing the game in your favor (though he forces different lines of play). Additionally, the lifelink and flying can matter in certain situations. In other words, there are some cornercases where Titan is better (though to be fair the same is true of the handless demon), but in most games where either one enters play, either one will get the job done adequately if utilized correctly (it could perhaps be argued that Grizzly is harder to do this with however). I have been seeing more of the situations recently where Captain Hooks is better, so Little Miss Sunshine has been on the bench resting up. YMMV.

I never really thought about using him to block your opponents Griselbrand from hitting the table.  I guess in a field heavy with Grisels this is definitely a huge bonus since all non zealot dread return targets make you pass the turn.

Another black creature that could be considered is Slitherhead. Game 1 it increases your clock, exiles for Ichorid, or pitches to unmask. Games 2 and 3 it can do all these things AND be a 1 drop creature to beat with.

I think I would struggle to find space for him.  From the graveyard he only gives you a +1/+1 counter, not an actual 1/1 creature.  The difference is pretty large for a deck looking to sacrifice creatures to therapy, and possibly dread return.  ANY black creature pitches to Ichorid and unmask so its not exactly difficult to have cards to do that for you.  I would think that even a generic 1 drop black creature with 2 power and can't block is probably going to be better than it.

[msg67183]

I played the Dread Returnless list today to a top 4 finish in Bloomsburg today, going 3-1. Here is my mini report:

Round 1: Dom on Grixis Control 2-0 Win Roll
This was my best and favorite match all day.
Game 1 I mulled to 3 and had my Bazaar Stifled two turns in a row, but still managed to get there.
Game 2 I was at one life and he was at two and he flipped Izzet Charm to Bob.

Round 2: Tim on Dredge 1-2 Lose Roll
Games 1 and 2 I didn't see a single Bazaar but had Leyline in opening 7.
Game 3 I mulliganed to 4 and he put 2 Leylines into play followed by a Bazaar.

Round 3: Bill on Noble Fish 2-0 Lose Roll
I Misstepped both of his turn one Hierarchs, I played like a champ to get the victories.

Round 4: Roland on Grixis Control 2-0 Lose Roll
Game 1 he played land Lotus pass, has Tinker in hand. I double unmask him, taking Tinker and Snapcaster, he top decks Mox Emerald...

Top 4: Justin on UW Bomberman 1-2 Won Roll
Our games were close. Game 2 he won with Jace in play. Game 3 he comboed after a long time.

So all in all I think I did pretty well, Unmask was MVP of the day!
My game record was 8-4 so I think it was a good day for Black Plague!

[Phoenix888]

Nice writeup.  I liked the parts where you won.

[msg67183]

I apologize that it wasn't more elaborate, I am never able to recall many things from a tourney.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hello guys,

first off, nice primer. It was a really enjoyable read.

Since I've not played the deck since almost for a whole year now - heck I didn't even play a Vintage tournament since May last year - I want to inform myself about the current metagame. How is it like, is it good for Dredge? Does Rest in Peace affect the metagame somehow and what's about Deathrite Shaman? Even though I don't think these cards are good against Dredge, they might have changed the amount of graveyard hate which is played like, Deathrite Shaman did in Legacy. Speaking of the DRless list, I think you'll need three Darkblasts maindeck now. I heard that creatures are becoming more relevant in Vintage and also Darkblast does a good job in the mirror or getting the most out of your Bridges.

Concerning the list without Gravetrolls: How does this list perform? How are the Dakmor Salvages? Actually I never had the feeling that I need them at all. If I don't have any lands for the Bloodghast landfall-trigger, they're just Ichorid-fodder and that's fine for me. Also Dredge 2 is really underwhelming for me.

Thanks for a reply in advance .

[msg67183]

The list without Trolls is what I played on the 2nd, that is what the short report is from.
To answer your Dredge Hate questions:
Rest in Peace:
This card is a hoser, generally u either must answer it quickly, or just switch to the cast dudes route, which the list I played does very well.
Deathrite Shaman:
It's an annoyance, but far from back breaking. I generally Mental Misstep them if I see them.

If you are looking to play Dredge again, I suggest the Troll-less list, it's very consistent.

[vaughnbros]

first off, nice primer. It was a really enjoyable read.

Thank you.  I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Since I've not played the deck since almost for a whole year now - heck I didn't even play a Vintage tournament since May last year - I want to inform myself about the current metagame. How is it like, is it good for Dredge? Does Rest in Peace affect the metagame somehow and what's about Deathrite Shaman? Even though I don't think these cards are good against Dredge, they might have changed the amount of graveyard hate which is played like, Deathrite Shaman did in Legacy.

About a year ago, right before grafdigger's cage, was when I thought that dredge was statistically the best deck of the format.  With the printings of the widely played Grafdigger's Cage and the overwhelming powerful Rest in Peace this is no longer the case.

As far as meta game changes concerning dredge in the past year they have mainly been concerning the combo and fish archetypes.

There are a few more pure combo decks at tournaments now than there was a year ago.  They are usually running some combination of Griselbrand, Oath, and Ritual.  They typically don't run dredge hate so basically it comes down to a race.  However, these decks are faster on average than every dredge deck.  So you basically need to hit them with some sort of disruption to slow them down or just hope that variance grants you a window for victory.

The more impacting change to dredge's viability has been to fish decks though.  In the last year they went from being one of the best match ups for dredge to one of the worst.  They are now typically running main deck Strip effects, Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite shamans as well as sideboard Cages and Rest in Peace.  As a result of all this hate and the power of Rest in Peace if they play it against you its generally a pretty big whole to climb out of.

Sadly this format does not mirror legacy and decks have not decreased their dredge hate in fact you are likely to see more of it.  This is because the dredge hate is so powerful that it is strong enough to influence other match ups in vintage as well.

Speaking of the DRless list, I think you'll need three Darkblasts maindeck now. I heard that creatures are becoming more relevant in Vintage and also Darkblast does a good job in the mirror or getting the most out of your Bridges.

Concerning the list without Gravetrolls: How does this list perform? How are the Dakmor Salvages? Actually I never had the feeling that I need them at all. If I don't have any lands for the Bloodghast landfall-trigger, they're just Ichorid-fodder and that's fine for me. Also Dredge 2 is really underwhelming for me.

Darkblast and Darkmor Salvage are both definitely great cards, and I don't think I'd want to cut them from the main deck anytime in the near future.  However, they are more of a luxury than anything in game 1.  They are there for game 2 and 3's.  My deck building philosophy in regards to dredge for the past year has been to focus on post sideboard games and place any "sideboard" cards that can have impact on game 1 into the main deck.  To me it really comes down to that Bazaar + Dredgers + Free Creatures/Therapies is already extremely broken.  If an analogy to another archetype helps at all its similar to ANT versus Bob Tendrils.  You are trading off some of your speed for some extra disruption and resiliency.

As far as dakmor salvage specifically with 8 other black creatures you typically never have a problem with Ichorid fodder and its always nice to not have to worry about discarding your undiscovered paradise because you know you'll have access to dakmor salvages if you need the land drop.  Dredge 2 is underwhelming yes, but much better than draw 1.

Thanks for a reply in advance .

You're welcome.  

[Stormanimagus]

I'd argue that another back-breaker for dredge from the fish end is cards like Thalia. Making all Therapies, Dread Returns, and answers cost +1 is pretty darn annoying for a dredge pilot. Thalia + a steady stream of wastes is pretty backbreaking even BEFORE the hate is tacked on. Once you throw cards like Cage and RIP into the mix you are talking a blowout a lot of the time.

-Storm

[msg67183]

I don't see how Thalia + no hate is a "back breaker" for Dredge.
I don't even see Lodestone Golem + no hate out as a back breaker.
I just play through it, nothing is stopping me from getting Bloodghasts, Narcomoebas, and Ichorids into play.
I can also just slow dredge through Thalia.

[Stormanimagus]

well of course you need to throw down at least 1 road block to really assure winning, but you'd be surprised at how many times I've "raced" dredge when I wasted their early bazaar and dropped an early Thalia. If my opponent is forced to slow dredge and find his ichorids (I could give two shits about bloodghasts and narcomoebas cause he'll have no way to sac them for tokens cause I won't attack into them) and I can find a single mayor of avabruck in a few turns I just bought myself a lot of turns where I am getting a 3/3 army to find parity with his 2/2 army. Obviously it depends on the number of bridges in the yard, but there definitely ways to play the creature battle/blockers math with Humans.dec once you have an opponent relying on only ichorids to win. I also run 3 Deathrite Shaman and under such a stalled game-state I now win by exiling ichorids.

You need to not just assume that a lack of major hate auto-loses you the game. There is a lot of more "soft" hate out there that can get you there. Will it often? Probably not. But in concert with the real hate and other sorta counter-intuitive bombs like mayor it becomes a totally different matchup than simply "do you have the hate? I guess I win/lose."

-Storm

[msg67183]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree here.