[Free Article] So Many Insane Plays -- Rogue Hermit: The Fastest Deck in Vintage

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

You're right Stephen lol, I did skim read haha sorry. If your numbers are accurate I guess it could be a contender. But I know in my meta shops is still the bully on the streets to a goo extent. So I'm not sure this deck can count on beating shops often enough as well as a deck running force of wills and friends. Like what if you somehow lose game 1 vs blue...landstill bomberman grixis etc... Then game 2 you have a turn 1 kill hand but get blown out by force of will? Do u keep hoping they don't have force or hope to mull into Leyline. Just seems like you need too many components in each hand to be strong enough.

I could be wrong but I see it hard for a deck like this doing well in a 5-6 round event...it would beat up on the n00bs and people not in the know of the deck that's for sure haha!

[psyburat]

I briefly mentioned this on Twitter, but what about Flash as a +2 "mana", non-black way of casting Balustrade Spy, combined with occasionally getting a combo piece out of hand?  A bit hypothetical, and doesn't work with Undercity Informer, but worth mention beyond listing it as a card that can find the combo.

[Smmenen]

You're right Stephen lol, I did skin read haha sorry. If your numbers are accurate I guess it could be a contender.

I'm not saying it's a contender.  I don't know what it is.  I just built the strongest combo deck I could from the tools available.  I'll leave that to touraments to decide...

But I know in my meta shops is still the bully on the streets to a goo extent. So I'm not sure this deck can count on beating shops often enough as well as a deck running force of wills and friends. Like what if you somehow lose game 1 vs blue...landstill bomberman grixis etc... Then game 2 you have a turn 1 kill hand but get blown out by force of will?

It depends.  If you have a Pact, I'd keep.  If you have stable mana, then I'd probably keep, since you have a decent chance of playing another combo creature.

The point isn't that this deck beats everything, but that it has realistici plans:

1) Against Workshops on the draw (on the play, just win both games on turn 1 -- pretty easy): Leyline of Anticiaption

2) Against Control: Pact & Leyline of Lifeforce (and ETW)

3) Against Graveyard Hate: Belcher/Empty the Warrens

The point is that it can come at you from many different angles, and can address -- at least in theory -- anything an opposing deck can bring at them.  The speed is important, but not because it makes this deck fast, but because it forces the opponent into narrow lines of play, and then allows you to take advantage of that.  Your opponent mulligans into a Force or Leyline, and then you come out with ETW or Leyline of the Lifeforce.  Boom.

Do you see what I'm saying?  Just read what I'm writing...  I'm not making tournament claims, just explaining why you don't lose automatically to Shops on the draw, GY hate or Force.  This deck has game against those threats.

I briefly mentioned this on Twitter, but what about Flash as a +2 "mana", non-black way of casting Balustrade Spy, combined with occasionally getting a combo piece out of hand?  A bit hypothetical, and doesn't work with Undercity Informer, but worth mention beyond listing it as a card that can find the combo.

I  mentioned flash both in this article and also talked more about it on the first page of this thread.  See I think, the 4th or 5th post in this thread.

[psyburat]

I briefly mentioned this on Twitter, but what about Flash as a +2 "mana", non-black way of casting Balustrade Spy, combined with occasionally getting a combo piece out of hand?  A bit hypothetical, and doesn't work with Undercity Informer, but worth mention beyond listing it as a card that can find the combo.

I mentioned flash both in this article and also talked more about it on the first page of this thread.  See I think, the 4th or 5th post in this thread.

I saw that, but one could argue that Lion's Eye Diamond is the Flash for Undercity Informer, since it is also a mana source that helps only one of the Rogues.  Although Lion's Eye Diamond has another option as a way of firing Belcher and enabling metalcraft, Flash is unique in that, as stated, it doesn't need black and it essentially a +2 ritual.  You could also potentionally cast it with imprinted Pact of Negation.  It's certainly not the worst card, and probably better than the second Simian Spirit Guide.

[vaughnbros]

You're right Stephen lol, I did skin read haha sorry. If your numbers are accurate I guess it could be a contender.

I'm not saying it's a contender.  I don't know what it is.  I just built the strongest combo deck I could from the tools available.  I'll leave that to touraments to decide...

This is an interesting deck, but I could hardly ever see it being a contender.  I think its pretty accurate to place this right next to belcher, academy, and ad nauseam decks in its competitiveness.  This may be the fastest of all those decks, but at the cost of pretty much only be able to win on turn 1.  Only 6/10 hands you showed would be turn 1 goldfishes, and 2/10 would be complete fizzles without a miracle top deck.  After gold fishing some hands myself this seems fairly accurate.  These don't really seem like good enough odds to make it a contender.  Even if I could guarantee I'd win every die roll every match during a particular tournament I still don't think I'd play this list over a burning wish build or workshops.

[Smmenen]

 This may be the fastest of all those decks, but at the cost of pretty much only be able to win on turn 1.  

I'm not sure you understand how this deck works.  Why can't you win on turn 2 or 3 or 4?  

For example, if I play Empty the Warrens for 5 on turn 1 that's a turn 3 win.  What's wrong with that?

Or, if I play Belcher on turn one, and activate it on turn 2 against Workshops or a control deck with Cage/Leyline on play, what's wrong with that?

I don't get your point that this deck can only win on turn 1.   This deck's post-board plan does not rely on winning on turn one in any way.  Nor does it's pre-board plan.  What's wrong with playing turn 2 creature with Leyline of Lifeforce or double pact??

[vaughnbros]

 This may be the fastest of all those decks, but at the cost of pretty much only be able to win on turn 1.  

I'm not sure you understand how this deck works.  Why can't you win on turn 2 or 3 or 4?  

For example, if I play Empty the Warrens for 8 on turn 1 that's a turn 3 win.  What's wrong with that?

Or, if I play Belcher on turn one, and activate it on turn 2 against Workshops or a control deck with Cage/Leyline on play, what's wrong with that?

I don't get your point that this deck can only win on turn 1.   This deck's post-board plan does not rely on winning on turn one in any way.  Nor does it's pre-board plan.  What's wrong with playing turn 2 creature with Leyline of Lifeforce or double pact??

You misunderstood what I was saying.  I'm not saying you have to physically win the game on turn 1, but rather you need to be playing a win con on turn 1 in order to do win.  With only 1 tutor, no draw spells, and no lands this very rarely has a reason to pass the turn.  Even a deck like belcher would pass the turn in order to use a top deck tutor or drop a second land.  In order to win with this you really need to get to 3 mana fast mana to drop an informer or 4 fast mana to drop a belcher, empty, or spy.  I thought your inclusion of 7 pacts made it clear what the goal is.  I mean really keeping a hand where you need to rely on blindly top decking 1 of 5 or less cards in order to play a win con just doesnt seem like a good game plan.

In the last scenario you posed other than the niche cases of needing extra mana because of demonic, wild cantor, vault or sol ring, why am I waiting till turn 2 to play a creature?

[Smmenen]

You misunderstood what I was saying.  I'm not saying you have to physically win the game on turn 1, but rather you need to be playing a win con on turn 1 in order to do win. 

I played a bunch of games against control as I was tuning this deck.  I'll give you an example where that's not true.

Suppose you had this opening hand: Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation, Spy, Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mox Pearl, Nacromoeba.

I'd keep that hand, on the assumption that I'll probably draw a mana source to be able to win.  It's a turn 2 win, but I'd keep it nonetheless. 

The reason I only had 3 Summoner's Pact is because I don't want to be all in an a turn one play if I can avoid it.  Otherwise I'd run 4. 

I briefly mentioned this on Twitter, but what about Flash as a +2 "mana", non-black way of casting Balustrade Spy, combined with occasionally getting a combo piece out of hand?  A bit hypothetical, and doesn't work with Undercity Informer, but worth mention beyond listing it as a card that can find the combo.

I mentioned flash both in this article and also talked more about it on the first page of this thread.  See I think, the 4th or 5th post in this thread.

I saw that, but one could argue that Lion's Eye Diamond is the Flash for Undercity Informer, since it is also a mana source that helps only one of the Rogues.  Although Lion's Eye Diamond has another option as a way of firing Belcher and enabling metalcraft, Flash is unique in that, as stated, it doesn't need black and it essentially a +2 ritual.  You could also potentionally cast it with imprinted Pact of Negation.  It's certainly not the worst card, and probably better than the second Simian Spirit Guide.

Flash is definitely worthy of consideration.  Being +2 mana is significant.  There are only a number of other cards that can do that: Ritual, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Lotus. 

The problem is that it can only help accelerate out Spy.  Also, on the negative column, the blue mana is tricky.  Unless you have Petal, Lotus, Sapphire, an active Opal or Wild Cantor, its hard to play this.  You could have Narco on a Chrome Mox I suppose.  Being blue is ironically a huge drawback here, for mana reasons.  That's actually why I don't have it in my deck. 

[Onslaught]

I'm not saying this is the best deck ever or predicting that it will be a consistent T8 finisher, but most of the complaints in this thread are from positions that obviously have not tested the deck. Just try a few games when you get a minute, it's completely viable (and I've moved the FOWs to the maindeck, which even gives you a random chance to steal G1 on the play vs some Shops draws).

In regards to Flash being mentioned above, I've added it (helps with FOW blue count) and the fourth Summoner's Pact (dropping an Informer)

[Smmenen]

I'm not saying this is the best deck ever or predicting that it will be a consistent T8 finisher, but most of the complaints in this thread are from positions that obviously have not tested the deck. Just try a few games when you get a minute, it's completely viable (and I've moved the FOWs to the maindeck, which even gives you a random chance to steal G1 on the play vs some Shops draws).

What did you cut from the maindeck?  I'd like to see your list if you are willing to post it...

[Onslaught]

I'm just testing on the floor with my friend right now so stuff is flying in and out, but the key thing so far has been Serum Powder in the board. The blue and green Leylines are so good in their respective matchups that I'd rather just Serum Powder to dig for them instead of try to play additional disruption...

4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of Ancticipation
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Leyline of Lifeforce

This is the current board configuration I'm using. Maybe I'm just drawing hot right now because this is a small sample size (maybe 20 matches so far, if that), but I think in the long run blue might have a hard time beating this deck if they aren't running Mindbreak Trap.

The correct configuration should probably end up with 4 Probe 4 Street Wraith, no reason not to keep the same ratios you have now but in a 52 card deck (plus you can slow roll blue with Probe/Therapy pass depending on what they have). When I pin down a list that feels right with these changes I'll post it.

[Smmenen]

Are you on the Fiend Hunter plan then?  It saves a maindeck slot and, I presume, you have 4 Narcos...

[Onslaught]

Yeah it's Fiend Hunter instead, evolved to that alongside going to 4 Narco for extra blue FOW count

I think I'm wrong about Street Wraith, mulliganing is your hand sculpting tool and even with 4 Probe/4 Street Wraith you are never really going to cycle your way into a winning hand. Basically a hand of "everything to win except a Hermit effect or a 1-2 mana" + Pact or FOW is what I've been keeping, so cycling a bunch doesn't really help there. I could see a version with maindeck Serum Powder, 4 Manamorphose, 4 Probe, 4 Street Wraith, but I think that's a different feel entirely. I still have 4 Probe right now though just for FOW purposes, and it's just good in general vs Blue post board.

Edit: jeeze this is really good vs Blue, you sorta have a Minus Six effect vs them where they may mull for a Leyline or Ravenous Trap or something and you just ignore it and go like Probe, Mox, Mox, Ritual, ETW and win. This has a long way to go for an optimized build but it's way faster and more resilient than Belcher ever was.

[Smmenen]

Yeah it's Fiend Hunter instead, evolved to that alongside going to 4 Narco for extra blue FOW count

I think I'm wrong about Street Wraith, mulliganing is your hand sculpting tool and even with 4 Probe/4 Street Wraith you are never really going to cycle your way into a winning hand. Basically a hand of "everything to win except a Hermit effect or a 1-2 mana" + Pact or FOW is what I've been keeping, so cycling a bunch doesn't really help there. I could see a version with maindeck Serum Powder, 4 Manamorphose, 4 Probe, 4 Street Wraith, but I think that's a different feel entirely. I still have 4 Probe right now though just for FOW purposes, and it's just good in general vs Blue post board.

Edit: jeeze this is really good vs Blue, you sorta have a Minus Six effect vs them where they may mull for a Leyline or Ravenous Trap or something and you just ignore it and go like Probe, Mox, Mox, Ritual, ETW and win. This has a long way to go for optimization but it's way faster and more resilient than Belcher ever was.

This deck isn't even comparable to Belcher.  Belcher + activation is 7 mana.  This only needs 4.  That's a GIGANTIC difference. 

Re: Street Wraith/Probe, as I already told Meddling MIke:

Since the printing of Barbed Sextant, Vintage combo decks have often incorporated these effects, which have both uncertain and certain value, paradoxically.  There is real value to both cards both in the general and specific sense of both  thinning your library and being able to draw a new card into your hand and/or see your opponent's hand.

The way I've designed the deck, I seek to reduce variance.  I want to build the most consistent opening hands as possible.   Consider:

If you have an opening with no started black source or no combo creature/Belcher/DT, you can't keep the hand.  Would you keep the hand if you have Probe/Street Wraith?  No, you can't.  If that's the case, then it follows that Street Wraith/Probe make mulligan decisions harder without actually improving your opening hands and/or consistency.  It's better to make the deck more detrminant at the outset.

[Kiriyuu]

Feeling pretty stupid that I can't figure it out. D: Can someone explain the Fiend Hunter win?

Thanks.

[Smmenen]

I explain it in the article.  .

[Kiriyuu]

Well that's embarrassing, I read the whole article and missed that...haha. Thanks again!

I guess against blightsteel collossus you make that the only card in their library and hope they can't win in their 1 turn they get?

[Smmenen]

That's the main reason to avoid the Fiend package.  There will be too many games where you have Pact trigger's on the stack and you need them to deck immediately. 

[Oath of Happy]

Gitaxian probe might be a great inclusion to help storm up with ETW, and also works well with Cabal Therapy.  Street Wraith is also helpful if your usiing the Sutured Ghoul kill and need more power to trample over an opponents blocker if you've exiled a bunch of Spirit Guids already.

[Smmenen]

Yeah, this thread has hit on G Probe a number of times.  I don't like the cantrips, for reasons I already laid out for Meddling MIke -- primarily because you aren't actually trying to thin once you have an opening hand.  The selection criteria for keeping a hand doesn't turn on relative deck uniformity but two specific requirements: having a starting black mana source, and having a combo part (Spy, Informer, Belcher, ETW, etc).  You can't keep a hand that lacks either, and you can't rely on Probe to find one.

THe only reason I'd run probe is if I was trying to fit FOW maindeck. 

Sutured Ghoul kill is helepd by Wraith, but the Spys/Informers, and ESGs already give you enough power.  And Ghoul is actually a terrible kill.   There are about 3 other better ones, including Mimeoplasm and Fiend. 

[mistervader]

Is there no merit to running an Ancient Grudge or two in place of some of the Nature's Claims in the sideboard? Seems like it's a good way to sidestep the Mental Missteps.

[Smmenen]

Look at my deck list again. I don't have anyNatures Claims. Fyi

[Stormanimagus]

Stephen, I can't understand why you think this deck is good. I have been testing it out and even GOLDFISHING it has to mull way too often to be good.

You DO just scoop to shops on the draw unless you are lucky enough to have Leyline of Anticipation + the win. So better hope you win that coin-flip AND turn 1 them both games you're on the play??

The fact that this deck can't be on the land grant plan makes it way too all-in vs. blue honestly.

If you are diluting this deck with cards like Pact or Unmask you aren't going to be turn 1 or 2ing them that often. This deck is just way too fragile to work in Vintage. I would compare it to meandeck tendrils. Before Lodestone Golem, Thorn of Amethyst, Mental Misstep, Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm existed I think these turn 1 kill decks had more of a chance, but now I really don't see a deck like this winning many games, let alone matches.

Sorry Stephen, I know it's exciting to see a new combo deck in the format and I don't mean to be a hater, but you gotta be realistic. You like didn't even discuss the obvious for more than a couple sentences in your podcast. Uh, SHOPS? You were so caught up in talking about pacts and playing through counters that you didn't even talk about playing through 12-13 spheres. Shops laughs at decks like this unless you can roll/mull like a boss against them all the time.

Don't mean to be harsh, but let's get real please?

-Storm

[Smmenen]

My numbers and testing clearly differs from yours.  I did quite a bit of in person testing too. I won 6 out of 10 games against a Jace control deck in my first round, pre-board, and I get Leylime of the Lifeforce and ETW post board.  

While it mulligans, the games in this article are representative in that regard.  If people find that the deck mulligans because they can't find a win condition, add more to the main deck: more belcher or ETW. If they find the deck mulligans bc of a lack of black mana, add 4th Summiners Pact and more Wild Cantor.  

I'm just presenting what I found to be the most consistent and fastest build I could make, and viable plans.  You can easily win the Workshop matchup. Just win the die roll

Seriously though, Belcher decks top 8 in Vintage and Legacy, and this deck is almost twice as efficient.  It's actually absurd. If you can't understand how broken that is, I can't help you.

Maybe you should stick to Humans

[mistervader]

Look at my deck list again. I don't have anyNatures Claims. Fyi

Whoops! Sorry about that. I must've been looking at a cached version from the site yesterday, before the Warrens and extra Leylines came in.

[Thegreatgonzo]

Thanks for this great article.
Since the bottleneck of the deck is finding black mana, have you considered Manamorphose? I understand it makes mulligan decisions harder, but it could be viable if you play enough spirit guides. Any thoughts on that?

My 2 cents

[xouman]

Since manamorphose allows 11 cards to give black mana from green/red (2 moxen, 6 spirits,3 pacts, plus marginal effects like imprinting a manamorphose on a chrome mox to play a second manamorphose), it's a card worth considering. Not losing a mana in the process and being inmune to MM is a boon over chromatic star/sphere.

besides, fits perfectly with ETW plan

[psyburat]

Since manamorphose allows 11 cards to give black mana from green/red (2 moxen, 6 spirits,3 pacts, plus marginal effects like imprinting a manamorphose on a chrome mox to play a second manamorphose), it's a card worth considering. Not losing a mana in the process and being inmune to MM is a boon over chromatic star/sphere.

besides, fits perfectly with ETW plan

However, you want to minimize the risk of drawing a combo piece, and any draw effect you add to the deck is another Narcomoeba you could possibly draw.  The reason Manamorphose is good in Legacy Empty Belcher is because you want nothing to stay in your deck, and in fact WANT to draw the Taiga.

[MaximumCDawg]

It's posted over in the comments of the article, but not here yet: some genius mentioned Grand Abolisher.  If you run this, your combo doesn't care at all about creature removal anymore.  So nice.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

While this may be the fastest deck it certainly isn't good at winning real life games lol. 2 players ran it today in Bloomsburg and I believe had a total of 1 match win in the event between the 2 players. Needing anti hate, plus mana, plus bomb, plus protection, and beat shops, seems awful. I beat the deck with landstill quite easily, and I saw it lose a handful of other matches as well... While true hermit druid deck may take a turn to activate it has access to better cards and more options because it plays lands. Some people may take this as a grain of salt or whatever but I am stll not sold. Doomsday is a better combo deck as well.