TO Report: The Players Guild - 02/16/13

[Kameli0n]

Today was a great  day for vintage in Bloomsburg. Had 25 vintage participants. Top 4 were awarded prizes for the event. First place earned 300 in store credit, second earned 150 in store credit, and 3rd and 4th each earned 75 in store credit. Thanks to everyone who came to play vintage in Bloomsburg.

The Metagame Breakdown:

Forces:
UWb Bomberman: 1 –  4%
UW Bomberman: 1 –  4%
Grixis Control: 1 –  4%
BUG Control: 1 –  4%
UB Control: 1 –  4%
UR Landstill: 1 –  4%
5c Control: 1 – 4%
Show and Oath: 1 –  4%

Workshops:
Martello: 4 – 16%
5c Stax: 1– 4%
Espresso: 2– 8%

Combo:
Doomsday: 1 – 4%
Burning Tendrils: 1 – 4%
Rogue Hermit: 2 – 8%

Bazaars:
Dredge: 1 – 4%

Others:
Noble Fish: 3 – 12%
BUG Fish: 1 – 4%
Shamans: 1 –  4%

This event was run with 5 swiss rounds with the cut to top 8.

Top 8 Pairings and Results

Glackin, Ryan vs. Kohler, Justin – Kohler Wins
Seals, Keith vs. Potucek, Joshua – Potucek Wins
Proulx, Daniel vs. Richards, Joshua – Richards Wins
Tappen, Shawn vs. Butker, Joshua – Butker Wins

Top 4 Pairings and Results

Butker, Joshua vs. Richards, Joshua – Butker Wins
Potucek, Joshua vs. Kohler, Justin (only person not named Joshua in the top 4) – Potucek wins

Finals
 
Butker, Joshua vs. Potucek, Joshua – Joshua (Potucek) Wins

Please inform us of any suggestions you may have for us to improve our tournaments in the future! And again, thanks to everyone for coming out to help support the game! Congrats to Joshua for winning it all!

Top 8 Decklists:

First – Josh Potucek
“Landstill"

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Mental Misstep
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Standstill
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest

SB:
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Goblin Welder
4 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bojuka Bog

Second – Josh Butker
“Doomsday”

1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Dark Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Doomsday
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Gush
1 Fastbond
2 Hurkyl’s Recall

SB:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Dismember
3 Nature’s Claim
2 Mindbreak Trap

Quarter-Finalist – Joshua Richards
“Noble Sees Fish”

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3 Trygon Predator
2 Tarmogpyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Path to Exile
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Strip Mine
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4  Serenity
4 Grafdigger’s Cage
4 Rest in Peace
3 Flusterstorm

Quarter-Finalist – Justin Kohler
“Red Deck Wins”

1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Auriok Salvagers
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Trinket Mage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Time Walk
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

SB:
1 Devout Witness
2 Shattering Blow
1 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Steel Sabotage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Grafdigger’s Cage

Quarter-Finalist – Shawn Tappen
“Red Deck Wins with Red”

4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
1 Steel Sabotage
2 Izzet Charm
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:
1 Mountain
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Pyroclasm
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Viashino Heretic


Quarter-Finalist – Keith Seals
“A.1 Steak Shop”

4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem

SB:
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Maze of Ith
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Duplicant

Quarter-Finalist – Ryan Glackin
“Girl Scout Cookies”

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Mental Misstep
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Time Walk
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nature’s Claim
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Trygon Predator
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

SB:
1 Flusterstorm
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Mountain


Quarter-Finalist – Daniel Proulx
“The Blue Danube Waltz”

2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Tinker
1 Wurmcoil Engine

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Magus of the Unseen
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dismember
1 Baleful Strix
1 Dimir Charm
1 Royal Assassin
1 Perish
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
 
Again, thanks for all the support. The date of the next Bloomsburg event is March 2, 2013. Thanks again everyone!!!!! And once again, Congratulations to  Joshua!!!

[psyburat]

Congrats to the entire Top 8!

I was one of the two Rogue Hermit players.  Between the two of us, we mustered one match win (against Dredge, aka no instant disruption)  I had a few games here or there, but I guarantee that it is NOT a deck for this format.  The list I borrowed, for reference (the other guy used Steve's 75):

MD:
4 Balustrade Spy
3 Undercity Informer

4 Narcomoeba
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Wild Cantor

4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Flash

4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sol Ring

SB:
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Serum Powder
3 Leyline of Lifeforce

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Great event Shawn as usual. Taking home first made the day even better. It was great seeing all of the cool people as usual, the vintage community is awesome!!!

Props: Beating shops 3 times on the day, smashing the shitty Rogue Hermit combo deck, and coming home with a time walk
Slops: None come to mind

[Archae]

Thanks for running the event. I had a blast, even if I had some trouble with coin flips. I hope to continue to make the trip; carpooling with anyone west of the event would be appreciated as well - if anyone plans on attending in the future and wants to carpool, let me know.

[Smmenen]

Congratulations to Josh Potucek again.  Your deck is ridiculous

Congrats to the entire Top 8!

I was one of the two Rogue Hermit players.  Between the two of us, we mustered one match win (against Dredge, aka no instant disruption)  I had a few games here or there, but I guarantee that it is NOT a deck for this format.  The list I borrowed, for reference (the other guy used Steve's 75):

MD:
4 Balustrade Spy
3 Undercity Informer

4 Narcomoeba
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Wild Cantor

4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Flash

4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sol Ring

SB:
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Serum Powder
3 Leyline of Lifeforce

I'm glad that folks experimented with a new archetype, but  -- and this is only my opinion - I don't think this list was likely to succeed.   The deck's two primary bottlenecks are exacerbated with this list: you not only have less black sources to start the turn, but you also have fewer combo creatures.   Gitaxian Probe can't compensate for cutting a combo creature.   

Every single design choice needs to be towards improved consistency.  Cutting a combo creatures just makes that deck all the more inconsistent.   I think this archetype needs at least 9 combo finishers maindeck (e.g Spy/Informer, ETW, Belcher), and possibly more if you don't run DT. 

Fiend Hunter may create a more compact combo, but with 8 Pacts, you just lose to Blightsteel Colossus being in the deck.

I can't understand why you ran only 1 SSG and 4 ESG if you have 4 ETW in the sideboard. 

Why wouldn't you run 4 SSG and 1 ESG.  Doesn't Serum Powder only work if your plan is ETW?  You can't Serum Powder reliably when you need singleton Dread Returns, etc. 

I applaud you for playing a new archetype and for experimenting with some different ideas, but my view is that these changes reduce consistency, increase mulligans without a sufficient improvement in actual performance through slightly greater disruption.

[Samoht]

His ESG vs SSG is definitely wrong.

Powder was clearly a Leyline fixer. That was the role. Whether or not it would make certain hands unPowderable is another can of worms.

I think not being able to lay lands is a major issue for the deck. It may be faster than Hermit Driud, but it's not anywhere close to as good.

Passing even one turn drops your win % from 60% to 10-20% against blue. That's a major problem. You're likely better off just playing a Belcher deck with all speed and no protection outside of some Pact's/Duress. You get access to better cards and can steal wins off Twister/Wheel and get value off cards like Manamorphose and Street Wraith, both of which don't really work as well in the Rogue deck. The reason why people haven't had decks that goldfished as well is because they construct them for tournaments. If you build a deck to beat a non interactive opponent with no metagame acknowledgement, I'm pretty sure Belcher or Tendrils is just as potent/fast as this deck. Inclusions of protection cards and an acceptance of Workshop as an archetype has lead to speed being sacrificed for consistency/longevity in the builds BEFORE goldfishing even happens. I believe this is over-hyped because it is new, not because it is faster than the other combo decks that are being played. Once you make the considerations necessary to play this in a tournament, a lot of the consistency/speed of the deck will falter while marginally improving bad match ups. Leyline of Anticipation for workshops is a classic example of this. It becomes the summation of 4/53-60(increased by 1 per mulligan) for the Leyline multiplied by the summation of 8/53-60(increased by 1 per mulligan) for the combo piece and multiplied by whatever the mana requirement probability breaks out to including the need of a starting point (mox/petal/cantor+guide/lotus) to have a chance, or go all in on an Empty the Warrens with Leyline in the hand for 6-10 and hope they don't play creatures with 2+ toughness/Ratchet Bomb/Wurmcoil/Hellkite. And that deck is 12-25% of the field. Good luck with trying to make it viable, but it seems a pipe dream.

[Smmenen]

If you build a deck to beat a non interactive opponent with no metagame acknowledgement, I'm pretty sure Belcher or Tendrils is just as potent/fast as this deck.

While Belcher might be stronger overall, becuase it does not suffer graveyard disruption vulnerabilities, it is not faster.  

I believe this is over-hyped because it is new, not because it is faster than the other combo decks that are being played. Once you make the considerations necessary to play this in a tournament, a lot of the consistency/speed of the deck will falter while marginally improving bad match ups. Leyline of Anticipation for workshops is a classic example of this. It becomes the summation of 4/53-60(increased by 1 per mulligan) for the Leyline multiplied by the summation of 8/53-60(increased by 1 per mulligan) for the combo piece and multiplied by whatever the mana requirement probability breaks out to including the need of a starting point (mox/petal/cantor+guide/lotus) to have a chance, or go all in on an Empty the Warrens with Leyline in the hand for 6-10 and hope they don't play creatures with 2+ toughness/Ratchet Bomb/Wurmcoil/Hellkite. And that deck is 12-25% of the field. Good luck with trying to make it viable, but it seems a pipe dream.

Two creatures with toughness aren't going to be enough to prevent an ETW from 8 from winning the game.   And what WOrkshop decks run Wurmcoil/Hellkite in this environment?   I think you can easily rely on a huge turn one ETW against WOrkshops, such that you don't even need to win the game on turn one against Workshops.

I share your concerns about its viability, and the underlying structural issues/bottlenecks. In fact, in my article on this deck, I said I had reservations about its tournament viability by saying that I doubted I woulid play this archtype in a tournament.   But my main reservation has nothing to do with mulligans or the blue matchup.   It has to do with what happens in a Top 8 when you lose a die roll to Shop.   That's the same reason I don't play Doomsday anymore, despite being the first to play Gush/Maniac/Doomsday in this format.  I don't think Doomsday can beat a good Workshop player on the draw either.  

[Will]

Two creatures with toughness aren't going to be enough to prevent an ETW from 8 from winning the game.  

7 Damage + 5 Damage + 3 Damage +1 Damage does not equate to a won game for the ETW.  That's assuming the Workshop deck plays Turn 1 and 2 Creatures after you play ETW for 8 on turn 1.  Granted, assuming that the Workshop deck is going to actually have that is another argument which changes based on the flavor of Shops that you are facing. 

And what Workshop decks run Wurmcoil/Hellkite in this environment?  

Look at Keith Seals list, or any of the other Martello Shops lists that have put up Top8s since Raf Forino created the deck and you will (should) see Steel Hellkite in the maindeck.  Keith also had 2 Ratchet Bomb and 2 more Steel Hellkites in his board to supplement the 1 in his main.  4/5 Shop decks played at this event were Martello, so you probably could assume that Steel Hellkite was a real possibility. 

[psyburat]

I'm glad that folks experimented with a new archetype, but  -- and this is only my opinion - I don't think this list was likely to succeed.   The deck's two primary bottlenecks are exacerbated with this list: you not only have less black sources to start the turn, but you also have fewer combo creatures.   Gitaxian Probe can't compensate for cutting a combo creature.  

Every single design choice needs to be towards improved consistency.  Cutting a combo creatures just makes that deck all the more inconsistent.   I think this archetype needs at least 9 combo finishers maindeck (e.g Spy/Informer, ETW, Belcher), and possibly more if you don't run DT.  

Fiend Hunter may create a more compact combo, but with 8 Pacts, you just lose to Blightsteel Colossus being in the deck.

I can't understand why you ran only 1 SSG and 4 ESG if you have 4 ETW in the sideboard.  

Why wouldn't you run 4 SSG and 1 ESG.  Doesn't Serum Powder only work if your plan is ETW?  You can't Serum Powder reliably when you need singleton Dread Returns, etc.  

I applaud you for playing a new archetype and for experimenting with some different ideas, but my view is that these changes reduce consistency, increase mulligans without a sufficient improvement in actual performance through slightly greater disruption.

Ironcally, despite this list (one of Onslaught's test lists) needing tweaking, it was always about what my opponent did and maybe once what I couldn't do.

Also, Powder was strictly to hit Anticipation on the draw.  The only game 3 on the draw I had versus Shops I kept a hand with both combos and the mana for them.  When he played Lodestone, I played power and a ritual into 8 Empty tokens, and promptly died to him making 3 more Lodestones (although 3 total was enough).

I never won on the draw in any match.

EDIT:  For reference, the other pilot played the "canonical" 75 from your list.  It's just a bad deck.

[Samoht]

If you build a deck to beat a non interactive opponent with no metagame acknowledgement, I'm pretty sure Belcher or Tendrils is just as potent/fast as this deck.

While Belcher might be stronger overall, becuase it does not suffer graveyard disruption vulnerabilities, it is not faster.  

As constructed you are right. If you eschew the acknowledgments to the meta game that Belcher pilots have made, I contend you can make it as fast as this deck.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Congratulations to Josh Potucek again.  Your deck is ridiculous

Thanks Sir! I had a really really tight match against Butker in the finals on Doomsday gush. I feel like I understand the sequences and cards in Doomsday better now than I had 6 months ago, which has lead me to some recent success against the deck...But it was no walk in the park lol. I have no doubt in my mind Butker could have easily crushed someone else piloting landstill in that finals match. GG's Butker!!!

[ramrodjon]

As always, I had a great time at The Player's Guild (despite scrubbing harder than ever, which is pretty hard sometimes!).  It was great seeing everyone in the community and my opponents (Brandon B, JP K, Dave Z, Chris K, and Mickey M) were all a pleasure to play against.  Congratulations to J-Pot and the rest of the Top 8!

Props:  Team Ramrod actually getting together in full force at a Vintage event.
           Josh Richards taking Noble-Sees Fish to a 3rd place finish.  (Hats off to Mykie and Bill)
           Being told we'd have a 30 minute wait at The Lube and getting seated in 15 with an awesome waitress.
Slops:  Completely blowing a tire in my wifes car 5 miles into our trip and having to finish the trip in my pick-up.
           My performance.

[KingSquee]

Brief aside: my deck was just named "BUG" until a few minutes before registration, when a bunch of young ladies started selling "GIRL SCOUT COOKIES!!!" rather vocally right down from the shop. Seeing as though the mall is emptier than Miss Teen South Carolina's head, the shouts carried rather well. I wasn't trying to be ignorant... this time, at least.

I had a great time as always and look forward to the next one, even if it means it's my turn to drive.

[Onslaught]

That Agent of Bolas deck seems kind of dope, I would use way more artifact mana though

[Ten-Ten]

"The blue danube waltz" looks awesome... seems like a blue/black standstill-less, grind out most games, kinda deck

[brianpk80]

I had an obnoxious assignment this weekend and didn't get there early enough to enter and stitch together a playable deck from the remainders of my old stuff, but it was fun seeing the finals and seeing the store for the first time.  I should be there earlier next time.  I guess I'll need Blood Moons?   

[Smmenen]

Congratulations to Josh Potucek again.  Your deck is ridiculous

Thanks Sir! I had a really really tight match against Butker in the finals on Doomsday gush. I feel like I understand the sequences and cards in Doomsday better now than I had 6 months ago, which has lead me to some recent success against the deck...But it was no walk in the park lol. I have no doubt in my mind Butker could have easily crushed someone else piloting landstill in that finals match. GG's Butker!!!

I'm sure he'll play Swarms for you next time!

I was disappointed you didn't play Thespian's Stage, since I need you to do that so my podcast prediction will come true LOL

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Congratulations to Josh Potucek again.  Your deck is ridiculous

Thanks Sir! I had a really really tight match against Butker in the finals on Doomsday gush. I feel like I understand the sequences and cards in Doomsday better now than I had 6 months ago, which has lead me to some recent success against the deck...But it was no walk in the park lol. I have no doubt in my mind Butker could have easily crushed someone else piloting landstill in that finals match. GG's Butker!!!

I'm sure he'll play Swarms for you next time!

I was disappointed you didn't play Thespian's Stage, since I need you to do that so my podcast prediction will come true LOL

Haha I kept all the creature removal in against him for swarm and lab man...I actually expected it LOL

Thespian's Stage...ahhhhh that guy. I tested it for about a week straight and came to a conclusion. You have to go to 27 mana sources to make it work. In other words I would just add it, but I felt like 26 sources was already a high count (as I was boarding mountin out against non wasteland decks). I was testing stage over the 5th fetch and over Ruby, but the problem with stage was I was finding myself taking a mulligan due to drawing the stage and not a colored source. This deck already has color issues in some hands and this card just makes it worse. It will stay in the back burner for now, but I wasn't having too much success in testing with it. At times it was good but at times it forced me to mulligan and I didn't like that.

[Asphyxious]

Great tournament Shawn, as always!

Congrats to Josh and the rest of the Top 8.  The final match was indeed extremely tight.  I really thought I had you when I could go off with 5 counterspells to back it up, but you played it very well.  I do miss the days when you underestimated the deck.

The swarms may or may not have been helpful.  I've played them against Josh, specifically, a few times before and they only seemed to make a difference if I stuck them early and went off early.  After about turn 2 or 3, they are significantly less valuable.

[credmond]

A few things that seem to get affirmed by this tournament . . .

Blue decks can beat Shops consistently. Landstill here beat 3 x shop decks.

Paradoxically, they can do it without running full moxen. Landstill runs only 2 mox and lotus.


It is my contention that one of the things that is making lots of blue decks out there weaker against shops is running too many moxen and opening themselves up for chalice at zero blow out plays.

[Samoht]

A few things that seem to get affirmed by this tournament . . .

Blue decks can beat Shops consistently. Landstill here beat 3 x shop decks.

Paradoxically, they can do it without running full moxen. Landstill runs only 2 mox and lotus.


It is my contention that one of the things that is making lots of blue decks out there weaker against shops is running too many moxen and opening themselves up for chalice at zero blow out plays.

Meh, EE is really good against Chalice 0 if you're on Landstill. It's even better against Spheres.

[credmond]

I think you may have missed my point. Its been stated by some that the way for blue to beat shops is to run full artifact acceleration. Blue decks that do that have however been running into the chalice at zero problem such that golem + chalice at zero is game over.

Landstill seems to be able to handle shops quite well without running full artifact acceleration and seems to suggest re-examining the role running full artifact acceleration has in actually beating shops.

A few things that seem to get affirmed by this tournament . . .

Blue decks can beat Shops consistently. Landstill here beat 3 x shop decks.

Paradoxically, they can do it without running full moxen. Landstill runs only 2 mox and lotus.


It is my contention that one of the things that is making lots of blue decks out there weaker against shops is running too many moxen and opening themselves up for chalice at zero blow out plays.

Meh, EE is really good against Chalice 0 if you're on Landstill. It's even better against Spheres.

[Will]

I think you may have missed my point. Its been stated by some that the way for blue to beat shops is to run full artifact acceleration. Blue decks that do that have however been running into the chalice at zero problem such that golem + chalice at zero is game over.

Landstill seems to be able to handle shops quite well without running full artifact acceleration and seems to suggest re-examining the role running full artifact acceleration has in actually beating shops.

A few things that seem to get affirmed by this tournament . . .

Blue decks can beat Shops consistently. Landstill here beat 3 x shop decks.

Paradoxically, they can do it without running full moxen. Landstill runs only 2 mox and lotus.


It is my contention that one of the things that is making lots of blue decks out there weaker against shops is running too many moxen and opening themselves up for chalice at zero blow out plays.

Meh, EE is really good against Chalice 0 if you're on Landstill. It's even better against Spheres.

I think you are missing a lot of the variables that come into play when you say something like this.  For instance, Josh is widely considered to be the best Landstill pilot which without a doubt helps his chances against any deck, including Workshops.  Also, who Josh played against has a big part in determining whether he was going to win or not as regardless of deck, a very good player should be able to beat a bad player just through outplaying them unless the matchup is very lopsided. 

Josh's deck also plays a big part in this equation because of the cards that it plays or doesn't play.  I don't think that you can just take any old deck, cut some of the moxen and expect the Workshop matchup to improve which is seemingly what you are implying.  To think this is completely ludicrous in my opinion as testing against a Workshop pilot who is actually good with the deck might show you rather than playing against an antiquated list played by a suboptimal pilot. 

The reason that Josh is able to beat Workshops 3 times on the day is a combination of his playskill as well as his deck construction.  Almost every single card that he plays serves a role in the Workshop matchup and his results speak for themselves.  To say that his success is attributable solely to his lack of full Moxen is a disservice to Josh, his deck, and the work he has put in with his deck in testing. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I think you may have missed my point. Its been stated by some that the way for blue to beat shops is to run full artifact acceleration. Blue decks that do that have however been running into the chalice at zero problem such that golem + chalice at zero is game over.

Landstill seems to be able to handle shops quite well without running full artifact acceleration and seems to suggest re-examining the role running full artifact acceleration has in actually beating shops.

A few things that seem to get affirmed by this tournament . . .

Blue decks can beat Shops consistently. Landstill here beat 3 x shop decks.

Paradoxically, they can do it without running full moxen. Landstill runs only 2 mox and lotus.


It is my contention that one of the things that is making lots of blue decks out there weaker against shops is running too many moxen and opening themselves up for chalice at zero blow out plays.

Meh, EE is really good against Chalice 0 if you're on Landstill. It's even better against Spheres.

The people that think you need full accel to beat shops are wrong. Its as simple as that. EE owns chalice and spheres, 4 instant creature removals (all which stop golem), a strong counter suite, and 26 mana sources including 4 factory and 5 waste effects works hah. This list is as strong as its ever been against shops.

After I won a counter war of 11 counters on the stack (or maybe it was 9) against doomsday in the finals of game 1, my opponent said wow I guess you went heavy for blue and skimped on shops today? I said no, I beat shops 3 times today. This deck can beat a wide spectrum of decks when played/built properly...

[Asphyxious]

It was 9 and a doomsday, I think.  Regardless, I have to say that Landstill deck was definitely one of your better ones, and I think that it is definitely a tier 1 deck capable of beating multiple archetypes.

I'd say it's definitely possible to beat workshops without full mana acceleration, but I also feel like it definitely helps, coming from someone who consistently faces off against shops without full moxen and still has a very difficult time winning.  I think the biggest difference is, as Will said, the overall deck design (26 mana sources versus my 21 post board, red anti-shops cards versus blue and green, spell pierces versus flusterstorms/missteps, etc.) that makes the matchup so strong, not just the lack of moxen.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

It was 9 and a doomsday, I think.  Regardless, I have to say that Landstill deck was definitely one of your better ones, and I think that it is definitely a tier 1 deck capable of beating multiple archetypes.

I'd say it's definitely possible to beat workshops without full mana acceleration, but I also feel like it definitely helps, coming from someone who consistently faces off against shops without full moxen and still has a very difficult time winning.  I think the biggest difference is, as Will said, the overall deck design (26 mana sources versus my 21 post board, red anti-shops cards versus blue and green, spell pierces versus flusterstorms/missteps, etc.) that makes the matchup so strong, not just the lack of moxen.

I agree I just think a lot of people would pick landstill up, test it, fish it, not understand it completely, or play it wrong, and not have as good of results in events as me, then set the deck back down. I didn't get good nor figure landstill out over night...

[credmond]

Huh? There are people on this site who think blue cannot beat Shops without running full artifact acceleration and that Landstill by this line of reasoning cannot beat Shops consistently without full artifact accleration. The results of this tournament discredit that line of thinking.

And indeed, if chalice at zero is hitting your blue deck a little hard it might be wise to trim down on the number of off-color moxes you are running for something I dunno like ancient tomb or more basics.

I think you may have missed my point. Its been stated by some that the way for blue to beat shops is to run full artifact acceleration. Blue decks that do that have however been running into the chalice at zero problem such that golem + chalice at zero is game over.

Landstill seems to be able to handle shops quite well without running full artifact acceleration and seems to suggest re-examining the role running full artifact acceleration has in actually beating shops.

A few things that seem to get affirmed by this tournament . . .

Blue decks can beat Shops consistently. Landstill here beat 3 x shop decks.

Paradoxically, they can do it without running full moxen. Landstill runs only 2 mox and lotus.


It is my contention that one of the things that is making lots of blue decks out there weaker against shops is running too many moxen and opening themselves up for chalice at zero blow out plays.

Meh, EE is really good against Chalice 0 if you're on Landstill. It's even better against Spheres.

I think you are missing a lot of the variables that come into play when you say something like this.  For instance, Josh is widely considered to be the best Landstill pilot which without a doubt helps his chances against any deck, including Workshops.  Also, who Josh played against has a big part in determining whether he was going to win or not as regardless of deck, a very good player should be able to beat a bad player just through outplaying them unless the matchup is very lopsided. 

Josh's deck also plays a big part in this equation because of the cards that it plays or doesn't play.  I don't think that you can just take any old deck, cut some of the moxen and expect the Workshop matchup to improve which is seemingly what you are implying.  To think this is completely ludicrous in my opinion as testing against a Workshop pilot who is actually good with the deck might show you rather than playing against an antiquated list played by a suboptimal pilot. 

The reason that Josh is able to beat Workshops 3 times on the day is a combination of his playskill as well as his deck construction.  Almost every single card that he plays serves a role in the Workshop matchup and his results speak for themselves.  To say that his success is attributable solely to his lack of full Moxen is a disservice to Josh, his deck, and the work he has put in with his deck in testing. 

[Archae]

The Blue Danube Waltz also has a decent match-up against shops (by this, I mean better than most blue control decks that seem to have problems beating workshops). One reason it does not run all the artifact acceleration that Onslaught recommends is precisely what this thread is hitting on: it detracts from consistency. This is both good and bad; running the full suite allows the deck to be more aggressive, but also opens the deck up to more hate (Chalice, Null Rod, Stony Silence, EE, etc. all start to hurt more). In a list like this, or Landstill, or any other deck that looks to push all matches to at least the 50-50 mark, consistency and the lack of card disadvantage that comes from the metagame is valued above high-variance plays that can lead to blowouts (in either direction).

[Onslaught]

Moxes are not high variance plays, and Null Rod/Stony Silence are niche considerations. I think the reason Landstill (and the Blue Danube list) can get away without the full jewelry is due to their other shared commonality: Wastelands + manlands. Notice that the 5 color control decks in Euro (running Abrupt Decay, Bolt, STP, high counts of maindeck Duress, etc) are also able to place high consistently in the face of Workshops. Again, the main thing they share in common with Landstill is the Waste/Strip package.

That being said, I would still run full artifact mana in the UB Tezz list if I were playing it. It's a cool deck either way, I think it can be dangerous with a little polishing.

[rpf5029]

As mentioned above, EE is such a blow out against Spheres.  It's not even fair. 

While Landstill may not play a lot of Mox-cards to accelerate, what it loses in terms of acceleration it makes up for in mana stability and pure mana sources.  26 mana sources isn't anything to sneeze at.  Making land drops every turn stems the bleeding against Shops.  Being ablet to pull out multiple basics helps against the Shop player's Wastelands, and the deck's own Watelands can go pretty far to locking a Shop player under his own spheres, or at least Ancient Tombs.  Plus, Landstill also does a decent job at removing the Shop player's clock.  Lightning Bolt is a natural predator against Lodestone and Phyrexian Revoker, and it's an instant to dodge Tangle Wire. Factories do a decent job at blocking factories, reducing the Shop player's clock.  It's very synergistic.