You Make The Card 4 - Design A Magic Card For Vintage

[Tha Gunslinga]

It's not that Fish is bad and needs help, it's just that most players won't touch it, because, you know, it's Fish.

[msg67183]

I will say that, in the past, I never liked Fish. I recently tested with a friend and I played his Noble Fish deck with Deathrite Shaman and I was actually impressed with how Deathrite Shaman plays in Fish. To that I'd say Noble Fish is a good deck and people shouldn't put the deck off just because it doesn't play a 5/3 turn 1 or a 11/11 trample infect turn 1.

But as for the Make the Card, my idea would be a card that answers Shops but that cannot be played IN Shops something along the lines of:

Land
"insert name here"
  add 1 mana to your mana pool for each artifact target opponent controls. Sacrifice "" if you control more than "x" artifacts.
I think this land would help every deck EXCEPT Shops.

[Stormanimagus]

I will say that, in the past, I never liked Fish. I recently tested with a friend and I played his Noble Fish deck with Deathrite Shaman and I was actually impressed with how Deathrite Shaman plays in Fish. To that I'd say Noble Fish is a good deck and people shouldn't put the deck off just because it doesn't play a 5/3 turn 1 or a 11/11 trample infect turn 1.

But as for the Make the Card, my idea would be a card that answers Shops but that cannot be played IN Shops something along the lines of:

Land
"insert name here"
  add 1 mana to your mana pool for each artifact target opponent controls. Sacrifice "" if you control more than "x" artifacts.
I think this land would help every deck EXCEPT Shops.

I mean, I suppose that is a good card, but it has very little flavor and the fact that it is only colorless mana seems to make it very very NON-proactive and really just sphere hatorade. I think we can do better personally.

-S

[msg67183]

Well one could change it to something like:

Land
"name"
  If any opponent has more artifacts than you,
add 3 mana of any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Spend this mana only on your turn and only on Non Artifact spells.
If at any time you control more artifacts than any opponent, sacrifice "".

[Stormanimagus]

Well one could change it to something like:

Land
"name"
  If any opponent has more artifacts than you,
add 3 mana of any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Spend this mana only on your turn and only on Non Artifact spells.
If at any time you control more artifacts than any opponent, sacrifice "".

Def better than the first I should say, but honestly, the reason I voted for enchantment is that I'm pretty SURE shops won't be able to abuse it and I feel that you could put new and interesting mechanics into the mix on an enchantment. My freeze mechanic may not be fair as worded originally, but I think that sort of direction is a far more cool place to take a card.

-S

[msg67183]

I'm all for enchantment also, but, as a Dredge player, I'd like to see something that even I could use. I'm not sure if they would print a 0-1 mana Enchantment that will effect the format.

[Stormanimagus]

I'm all for enchantment also, but, as a Dredge player, I'd like to see something that even I could use. I'm not sure if they would print a 0-1 mana Enchantment that will effect the format.

Why couldn't it be 2 CMC and still be good enough for the format? It just takes some creativity is all.

-S

[msg67183]

Have you ever played Dredge?

[Stormanimagus]

Have you ever played Dredge?

Sure I have and yes I know that a 2 cc enchantment is probably NOT playable in that deck, but I don't care. I don't think dredge needs any new toys either. The deck is fine as is.

-S

[msg67183]

Agreed, but it would be nice to see something to answer Shops namely Lodestone Golem.

[Stormanimagus]

Agreed, but it would be nice to see something to answer Shops namely Lodestone Golem.

Why is everyone so up in arms about shops and Golem? Honestly, if shops was TOO hosed then Blue would likely dominate again and that would make for a pretty boring format IMO. Blue should not be the only top deck played (although I know Smemmen would probably have no problem with every matchup being Restricted list.dec vs. Restricted list.dec) in large numbers. Shops is one of the road blocks for blue/combo being unstoppable. I don't think we need to nuke shops. I think pumping and helping other archetypes is a better idea. Heck I'd even say that pumping dredge is better than nixing shops. But you know my view on what archetype should be helped the most. I just don't want players at a major Vintage event being able to sit down across from their opponent and KNOW that because that player is recognized good player that he/she WON'T be playing fish/beats. The day that good Vintage players decide to bring a fish/beats deck to an event because they think it is a good choice for that event is the day I'm waiting for. I'm not saying I want beats to dominate either. Please don't misunderstand my intentions here. I looooooved ritual combo when it was really good. I will love such a deck again when it becomes really viable (I happen to NOT think Smemmen's Burning Oath deck is that good and that most of the top 8's with it have been by him and piloted at tiny tournaments with mostly noob opponents), but I just want to see players able to make a meaningful choice at an event to pilot beats and have a decent chance to top 8. A little surge in the archetype wouldn't hurt cause it would strike fear into "tier 1" pilots and force them to address the deck as being real.

I already tested nearly a dozen games with Mayor/Humans vs. Martello shops and the win % was about 65-35 in my favor. My opponent was a seasoned shop pilot friend of mine and he was astounded at the game-states I was able to get the deck to (I.e I play mayor and let it flip, he gets the metamorph, but then I get another mayor AND my own metamorph and just race him from there, or like the crazy shenanigans that d. shaman can allow against shops).

I know these decks are close, super close, in fact, to being a force in the metagame. I just want to see that realized and I don't think that is asking for anything that shop, and blue pilots haven't asked for for years.

-S

[msg67183]

Every time I test against Shops post boarded games are horrible. I can deal with Hate, and I can play through Spheres, but when hate is combined with Spheres, namely Lodestone, I just get wrecked.

As for Mayor Fish, I think the deck is powerful, I don't see a reason to need more cards. In GWUB you have:
Mayor
Bob
Thalia
Glowrider
Canonist
Meddling Mage
Mutavault
Fiend Hunter

If you want to play Caverns, City of Brass, and other Rainbow Lands you can even play Vithian Renegades for Shops, as well as Uvenwald Tracker for removal.

I don't see any need for more cards.

[Guli]

I see you have been doing your homework. Those cards are indeed options, but here are my insights:

- Glowrider is too expensive for what it does and is a dead card against a major contender in the meta: Mud. There is no room/slots for this luxery. You could maybe get away with 1 or 2 maindeck at the risk of having a dead card in your hand against Workshop. I find it risky. That does not mean Glowrider is bad, but here is the problem against MUD. Lodestone Golem alone is weak, but combined with Tangle wire and Phyrexian Metamorph there are games were you cast nothing and die. This is not playing magic. On the other hand, if you start (hence win the dice roll) with a Noble, you have a good chance in winning but in a less brutal way. In the lines were turn 1 Golem happens followed by a second one (real one or clone doesn't matter) or a Tangle Wire or a Revoker, you will need cards like Aether Vial or Evlish Spirit Guide to MAYBE cast 1 threat. This is absurd, not every deck can support Force of Will. So again, there is not much room for cards like Glowrider. Going for Glowrider can only be justified if you know for sure that the meta will be packed with blue combo.
- Canonist is not a card that sees that much play anymore. It is not forgotten, and we know the power of the card, but similarly to Glowrider, it does nothing against MUD or other Workshop variants. Believe me, if you don't respect MUD, you will not get far in any tournament. Like Glowrider, you can get away with maybe 1 main deck, in addition to Thalia. Thalia sometimes needs support against combo. But I would advise to build a deck that doesn't need Canonist.
- Bob is insane
- Mayor is insane
- Thalia is insane
- Mutavault is an ok card to have, but I don't see it as something special or necessary.
- Meddling Mage is in my view a better option compared to Canonist and Glowrider when it comes to 'hating out' enemy strategies. It has relevant game against Workshop, dredge and basically every deck out there because of its ability. I probably need to use this card more often again, but I hardly do that, I tend to give other cards priority for some reason.
- Fiend Hunter is a solid removal card in prison Fish. Should have some in the deck.
- I designed the rainbow mana base. What other rainbow lands are we talking about? Ancient Zigurat is a very hard card to play with, do you realize that? You basically have Cavern and City. The life loss is relevant in some games. I think the mana base is very important for Human/Mayor Fish to work. Cavern of Souls was a step in the right direction. But to reach a really smooth and solid mana base (the key to make the deck work) the archetype needs help. The reason for this is it runs wastelands and wants mishra's factory. There is no room for fetchlands in my opinion. The deck is decently equipped to deal with wastelands, but it needs momentum, tempo and board presence to do this, otherwise a resolved crucible on the other side spells doom.

That being said, I have another suggestion for a land:

Prospering Gardens

 : Add to your mana pool, you gain 1 life.
 , : Target land in your graveyard gains dredge 1 until end of turn.
Dredge 1

[Stormanimagus]

I see you have been doing your homework. Those cards are indeed options, but here are my insights:

- Glowrider is too expensive for what it does and is a dead card against a major contender in the meta: Mud. There is no room/slots for this luxery. You could maybe get away with 1 or 2 maindeck at the risk of having a dead card in your hand against Workshop. I find it risky. That does not mean Glowrider is bad, but here is the problem against MUD. Lodestone Golem alone is weak, but combined with Tangle wire and Phyrexian Metamorph there are games were you cast nothing and die. This is not playing magic. On the other hand, if you start (hence win the dice roll) with a Noble, you have a good chance in winning but in a less brutal way. In the lines were turn 1 Golem happens followed by a second one (real one or clone doesn't matter) or a Tangle Wire or a Revoker, you will need cards like Aether Vial or Evlish Spirit Guide to MAYBE cast 1 threat. This is absurd, not every deck can support Force of Will. So again, there is not much room for cards like Glowrider. Going for Glowrider can only be justified if you know for sure that the meta will be packed with blue combo.
- Canonist is not a card that sees that much play anymore. It is not forgotten, and we know the power of the card, but similarly to Glowrider, it does nothing against MUD or other Workshop variants. Believe me, if you don't respect MUD, you will not get far in any tournament. Like Glowrider, you can get away with maybe 1 main deck, in addition to Thalia. Thalia sometimes needs support against combo. But I would advise to build a deck that doesn't need Canonist.
- Bob is insane
- Mayor is insane
- Thalia is insane
- Mutavault is an ok card to have, but I don't see it as something special or necessary.
- Meddling Mage is in my view a better option compared to Canonist and Glowrider when it comes to 'hating out' enemy strategies. It has relevant game against Workshop, dredge and basically every deck out there because of its ability. I probably need to use this card more often again, but I hardly do that, I tend to give other cards priority for some reason.
- Fiend Hunter is a solid removal card in prison Fish. Should have some in the deck.
- I designed the rainbow mana base. What other rainbow lands are we talking about? Ancient Zigurat is a very hard card to play with, do you realize that? You basically have Cavern and City. The life loss is relevant in some games. I think the mana base is very important for Human/Mayor Fish to work. Cavern of Souls was a step in the right direction. But to reach a really smooth and solid mana base (the key to make the deck work) the archetype needs help. The reason for this is it runs wastelands and wants mishra's factory. There is no room for fetchlands in my opinion. The deck is decently equipped to deal with wastelands, but it needs momentum, tempo and board presence to do this, otherwise a resolved crucible on the other side spells doom.

That being said, I have another suggestion for a land:

Prospering Gardens

 : Add to your mana pool, you gain 1 life.
 , : Target land in your graveyard gains dredge 1 until end of turn.
Dredge 1

I wouldn't mind such a land as it would def have applications in any Knight build. I'm still surprised that people aren't trying him out. Is he proving not to be that good for most players? I think the GWB manabase does work so I'm wondering why more players aren't considering him more strongly.

-Storm

[msg67183]

They aren't going to make a land with an out of set mechanic like Dredge.
I think my proposed land would be more ideal in your Mayor Fish deck.

[Stormanimagus]

They aren't going to make a land with an out of set mechanic like Dredge.
I think my proposed land would be more ideal in your Mayor Fish deck.

Your land was borderline broken. But I do like it

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't mind the hate distribution in the sb.  The hate for dredge almost alone blows dredge out of the water.  A pair of hate can just totally lock down the game.  The hate for shop is basically useless, cause you'll never get to play a spell anyway, so unless the hate costs -1 it almost doesn't matter.  Shops is better beaten with a solid opposing gameplan, not hate to fight an already bad matchup (fish has said good matchup btw).  The sb allotment vs fish isn't because it isn't needed....it's because it doesn't work.  Fish is so varied in cc and toughness and critter type that pyroclasm only clears out the lowest of the beasts, EE only hits the 2cc, and everything in general is just a speed bump.  The BEST way to beat fish is to just have a more broken, faster plan - like oath.  Even that is easily pridemaged.  Fish is currently the ONLY deck with a legit answer to EVERYTHING.  I think giving it more tools would just supplant one pillar with another.  I want land, because it is versatile to all decks, but I also want to see NEW decks...not just power up a guli/storm list to let them beat all other pillars more easily.

My response was @ stormangus' response to me, but for some reason i was looking at page 6

[Stormanimagus]

I don't mind the hate distribution in the sb.  The hate for dredge almost alone blows dredge out of the water.  A pair of hate can just totally lock down the game.  The hate for shop is basically useless, cause you'll never get to play a spell anyway, so unless the hate costs -1 it almost doesn't matter.  Shops is better beaten with a solid opposing gameplan, not hate to fight an already bad matchup (fish has said good matchup btw).  The sb allotment vs fish isn't because it isn't needed....it's because it doesn't work.  Fish is so varied in cc and toughness and critter type that pyroclasm only clears out the lowest of the beasts, EE only hits the 2cc, and everything in general is just a speed bump.  The BEST way to beat fish is to just have a more broken, faster plan - like oath.  Even that is easily pridemaged.  Fish is currently the ONLY deck with a legit answer to EVERYTHING.  I think giving it more tools would just supplant one pillar with another.  I want land, because it is versatile to all decks, but I also want to see NEW decks...not just power up a guli/storm list to let them beat all other pillars more easily.

My response was @ stormangus' response to me, but for some reason i was looking at page 6

Dragon, if fish had a legit answer to everything than more people would pilot it at events. The truth is, it is lacking in some key areas:

1. Targeted removal (fiend hunter just isn't good enough here and STP is easily misstepped and also isn't a dude)
2. Turn 1 answers to Oath (other than cage which again, isn't a dude, we don't have a lot here)
3. Card Advantage engine (Bob is all we have. Would be nice to have something more synergistic with the deck)

and by the way, I TOO want a new deck to spring up. Look at my post earlier where I discussed the printing of a possible Leyline cause I had a Leyline.dec in the works. I think it would be pretty safe to say that that deck would be entirely new and original. I think with the right config of leylines it could be viable.

-Storm

[Guli]

That being said, I have another suggestion for a land:

Prospering Gardens

 : Add to your mana pool, you gain 1 life.
 , : Target land in your graveyard gains dredge 1 until end of turn.
Dredge 1

I wouldn't mind such a land as it would def have applications in any Knight build. I'm still surprised that people aren't trying him out. Is he proving not to be that good for most players? I think the GWB manabase does work so I'm wondering why more players aren't considering him more strongly.

-Storm

There are many evenly strong or stronger options. Nothing wrong with Knight and nothing wrong with other cards. Your cards suggestions all seem odd to me. Can you make a more clear, simple strong suggestion for a land?

[Stormanimagus]

That being said, I have another suggestion for a land:

Prospering Gardens

 : Add to your mana pool, you gain 1 life.
 , : Target land in your graveyard gains dredge 1 until end of turn.
Dredge 1

I wouldn't mind such a land as it would def have applications in any Knight build. I'm still surprised that people aren't trying him out. Is he proving not to be that good for most players? I think the GWB manabase does work so I'm wondering why more players aren't considering him more strongly.

-Storm

There are many evenly strong or stronger options. Nothing wrong with Knight and nothing wrong with other cards. Your cards suggestions all seem odd to me. Can you make a more clear, simple strong suggestion for a land?

My suggestions probably seem odd to you cause I'm not specifically trying to design a card for just Vintage. I want to it to be relevant across all formats so it actually has a chance of being picked.

[Stormanimagus]

Ok Guli, let's try this:

Blooming Grove

Land

When Blooming Grove enters the battlefield you may play an additional land this turn.

: Add or to your mana pool.


NOTE: The problem is I find this card exceedingly boring. Not worthy of YMTC.

[Wagner]

Ok Guli, let's try this:

Blooming Grove

Land

When Blooming Grove enters the battlefield you may play an additional land this turn.

: Add or to your mana pool.


NOTE: The problem is I find this card exceedingly boring. Not worthy of YMTC.

I suggested pretty much this on page 5.

Simple land idea.

Fast-land
When Fast-land comes into play you may put a land card from your hand into play.
Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool.

Ok early game, great in multiple, craptastic late game. Or replace last clause with "you may play another land card this turn" to make it really good with Crucible and Y. Will.

[brianpk80]

I'm still surprised that people aren't trying him out. Is he proving not to be that good for most players? I think the GWB manabase does work so I'm wondering why more players aren't considering him more strongly.

Noah, the Knight is solid and your reasoning behind including it is sound.  I haven't included it because I tend to go 4-colors which means 4 Caverns, 4 Cities, sometimes a few Gemstones Mines, 3-4 Wastelands, X Factories, and the result is a mana base that doesn't have enough Plains/Forest cards to get the maximum mileage of Knight.

I think the reason Fish isn't played as much as it could be is because there's just an instinctual aversion to playing non-broken decks in Vintage.  I like complicated broken plays involving Ancestral, Black Lotus, Moxen, Draw-7's, Balance, and (showing my age here) Library of Alexandria but Tinker->BSC and Time Vault aren't my style.  Even if it were mathematically proven that decks running them were strictly superior to those without, I wouldn't play them because winning through such blunt obvious lines of play is not "fun" and would have little meaning as a personal achievement.  Many reasons for deck choice are subjective.  I suspect that even were it established beyond any doubt that the versatility & skill-sensitivity of the best Fish decks provided the best chance to rack up wins consistently, many players would eschew them still because "it's Fish" and "it feels too much like Standard."

Consequently, the available card pool isn't the problem; it's just the style of play that doesn't connect with some, just as certain styles don't connect w. me.  Mayor Fish has a few residual "there are no wrong threats, just wrong answers" drawbacks, but they're not fatal, only enough that there's room for improvement in more compact/versatile creatures printed in the future and still room for evolution in the mana base.  To that end, I like the lands both you and Guli proposed and would probably run both or either.   

[Stormanimagus]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Brian, but I'd really like to come up with a better land (assuming land is chosen tomorrow) than just something that helps accelerate. Some more perverse, more. . . je ne sais quoi? hmmmmm. . . .


Sand Dunes

Land

Artifact spells cost 2 more to cast.

: add to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast non-artifact spells.

, Sacrifice Sand Dunes: Return target artifact permanent to its owner's hand.

"The winds bite. The sand corrodes. The hill erodes. You are lost." - Ajani, Caller of the Pride

[Stormanimagus]

Looks like the land discussion is moot. We have an enchantment folks! Let's start brainstorming the baddest ass Leyline ever !!!!!

-Storm

[msg67183]

Leyline of the Portal 2BB

Players can't draw cards.
At the end of each player's turn,
That player either sacrifices a permanent or
Discards a card.
Discard 2 cards: Draw a card. Any player can activate this ability.

I went with black because there has only been one black Leyline.
It makes people evaluate hands better.
Bob still gives players cards.
Dredge still gets to do its thing.
The last clause prevents it from being too broken.

[Stormanimagus]

Leyline of Boulders        

Enchantment

If Leyline of Boulders is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it in play.

Whenever a player casts an artifact spell Leyline of Boulders becomes a 5/5 Giant creature with Trample.

[Guli]

Leyline of the Portal 2BB

Players can't draw cards.
At the end of each player's turn,
That player either sacrifices a permanent or
Discards a card.
Discard 2 cards: Draw a card. Any player can activate this ability.

I went with black because there has only been one black Leyline.
It makes people evaluate hands better.
Bob still gives players cards.
Dredge still gets to do its thing.
The last clause prevents it from being too broken.

The first clause and last clause contradict each other though. I have a feeling you aren't putting enough time into thinking it through before posting.

[Guli]

Ok Guli, let's try this:

Blooming Grove

Land

When Blooming Grove enters the battlefield you may play an additional land this turn.

: Add or to your mana pool.


NOTE: The problem is I find this card exceedingly boring. Not worthy of YMTC.

This would be amazing and not at all boring. I don't think non GW beats players would appreciate this.

[0/2 Drop]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/240

Welcome back to You Make the Card, where you, the Magic-playing community, get to collectively design a Magic card. We can now announce that the card we will be making is...

Card Type Run Off
Enchantment   38936   51.3%
Land                   36954   48.7%
Total                   75890   100.0%

While there was an initial flurry of tweets and blog posts discussing the epic battle between enchantments and lands, more involved works soon followed. Inkwell Looter made a graphic guide to the options involved. There was no attempt at impartiality.

There was also some premature, if prophetic, disappointment. Kevin Cron, in the So Many Insane Plays podcast, said, “I want a shirt that says: ‘Don’t blame me. I voted for land.’“

The choice of color will impact what kind of rules text our enchantment can have, so it’s important to choose carefully.

White
Blue
Black
Red
Green
For that reason, this is one of a handful of votes where... we aren’t going to let you vote yet! We want you as a community to really discuss and talk about the options before we let you all mash the vote buttons.