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Author Topic: Bazaar Control 2013?  (Read 15256 times)
msg67183
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« on: March 24, 2013, 01:11:18 pm »

I was wondering if a Control deck focused around Bazaar of Baghdad and Squee, Goblin Nabob is viable in the current Vintage metagame?
Cards that I think could make this viable are:
Ancient Grudge
Bloodghast
Purify the Grave
Deep Analysis
Zombie Infestation
Life from the Loam
Riftstone Portal

If this deck would be viable, I would think playing Rainbow lands would probably be best given the "5 color" nature of the deck.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2013, 05:06:31 pm »

I think the Squee engine slow but I don't see why Bazaar-based control couldn't be tuned to have a solid game plan against everything else.  Intuition was the standard play to set up triple Squees and an auto-include with all of the Flashback spells here.  I've seen Pernicious Deed used very effectively as board control in some B/G Loam Bazaar decks also.   
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msg67183
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2013, 05:39:24 pm »

I was thinking something along the lines of:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine
4 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
3 Life from the Loam
4 Bloodghast
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Zombie Infestation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
3 Raven's Crime
1 Balance

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Ravenous Trap


« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 08:25:00 am by msg67183 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2013, 05:50:13 pm »

If you run a tmd/google search for "dawn of the dead", you should find some ready made institutional knowledge.
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msg67183
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2013, 05:57:35 pm »

I just searched "dawn of the dead" on both google and TMD and I didn't find anything.
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2013, 06:00:26 pm »

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37514.msg522190#msg522190

TMD has this wonderful tool called the Vintage Encyclopedia.
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2013, 07:05:50 pm »

I just searched again, and found a number of threads on the deck, so I don't know what to tell you. This isn't new design space, its something that people have been playing with for years. If you are going to work on it, mind as well see what others did first. Good luck, Bazaar of Baghdad is my favorite card in magic. I'm always a fan of people trying to play it more.
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2013, 08:47:02 pm »

You could also search for Baghdad Bob, which was another fun, Bazaar-based deck:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34873.0
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msg67183
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2013, 09:18:32 pm »

When I google searched "dawn of the dead" it tried to sell me the Magic card Dawn of the Dead.
I knew it was a deck in the past, "Dawn of the Deads", "Minestrone Deck", etc... I was just wondering if it was viable in the current metagame.
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2013, 12:19:15 am »

Here's one post from 2008:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36374.msg505843#msg505843

I'm skeptical about this deck being viable, but I've always liked this archetype, so I'm curious to see where you go with it.
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2013, 10:29:22 am »

There is a nice list with bazaar / bob here http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45124.msg621772#msg621772
But it's an aggro list rather than control...
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msg67183
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2013, 03:12:35 pm »

Are you referring to the last list? With Emmisary and Lotleth Troll? If so that is my list!
That list is fun to goldfish. Do you have any suggestions to change it? I like the all creature approach, it makes Lotleth Troll really solid.
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2013, 07:51:51 pm »

For non-Dredge Bazaar decks you can also try to find the works of Visna Harris, with 3 Decks 1 Box and some other Minus Six variants. I really, really like using Bazaar in things besides Dredge, so I hope you have some success.
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2013, 06:45:22 pm »

This is a report I posted a year ago on our Aussie forum. It's been down for a while and I've just been able to recover it. I thought I'll post it here.

FRENCH MADNESS: THE DECK
A while ago, I started playtesting a frenchman's deck http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40492.0 which made Top 4 at BOM4 http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/magic-decklist-mtg-deck-list-bom-lists-bazaar-of-moxen.php (348 players Vintage event in May 2010). Quickly, I felt like the deck was often behind, in top deck mode, trying to survive (digging for Sword, Circular Logic...) and digging even harder for its win cond. So, I dropped the deck for a bit however, after my poor results at Dande's 2011 Masters last November with my own Remora brew, I decided to go to the drawing board: I really loved that Bazaar/Squee engine and the madness, flashback, dredge and other tricks.


Around the same time, with the end of year approaching, Xmas Beating was also becoming popular. After reading a fair bit about the deck, it seems that the Red and Green strategies were fairly coherent in our Aussie Vintage landscape: Mana Screwing, Crea & Artos pin point removals, Aggro-ish strategy.
Basically, I ended up mixing and playtesting the Madness and Xmas Beating decks together. In the end, and after beating Socrates Snappy-deck thousand times, I settled on the following list:

ARTIFACTS (9)
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Sol Ring
1 x Mana Crypt
1 x Time Vault
1 x Voltaic Key
1 x Skullclamp

CREATURES (15)
3 x Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 x Basking Rootwalla
3 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Goblin Welder
1 x Myr Battlesphere
1 x Phyrexian Revoker
3 x Gorilla Shaman

SORCERIES (4)
2 x Life from the Loam
1 x Tinker
1 x Time Walk
 
INSTANTS (11)
2 x Ancient Grudge
3 x Lightning Bolt
1 x Ancestral Recall
3 x Mental Misstep
1 x Pyroblast
1 x Red Elemental Blast

Lands (21)
4 x Bazaar of Baghdad
4 x Wasteland
1 x Strip Mine
1 x Riftstone Portal
2 x Volcanic Island
2 x Taiga
1 x Mountain
1 x Forest
4 x Wooded Foothills
1 x Barbarian Ring

SIDEBOARD (15)
1 x Ravenous Trap
1 x Tormod's Crypt
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Grafdiggers Cage
2 x Deglamer
3 x Natures Claim
3 x Magus of the Moon
1 x Pyrokinesis


Note that the presence of the duo of Goblin Welders is a remanent of the Control Slaver lists www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2017&d=214270" which I was also looking at the time. The main missing cards but that I really tried to make work are Mindslaver (Win more), Wheel of Fortune (inferior than Life from the Loam), Grim Lavamancer (Goyf and bolt are doing a better job) and Wild Mongrel (superseded by Goyf and Bazaar).


TOURNEY REPORT:
We've just run a successful Vintage Tourney at Infinity Games in Adelaide last week-end. 12 heavily geared players showed up and battled for 4 rounds and a Top 4 in order to win the mintiest Library of Alexandria ever.

1st Round: Bloody Dan Dowse (aka GNU) and his all times favourite Welder/Stax deck
Game 1:  I have 3 Wastelands in hand. It's a keeper, I decide to go for the Mana Screwing plan that should give me some good time to put together the draw engine and eventually the aggro plan. Dan starts with:


I sideboard the following:
- 3 Misstep
- 2 Pyroblast/REB
- 2 Rootwalla
+ 2 Deglamer
+ 3 Nature's Claim
+ 2 Surgical Extraction


Game 2: Dan is mana flooded and I manage to nervously get there

Game 3: Long game. I play an early Surgical Extraction and RFG all Wastelands


Then, 3 consecutive 5/6 Goyf attacks put him down to 5 life. He eventually draws into a 5/3 Golem. The whole world thinks: "Goyf is bigger than Golem so: Whatever!" but, a very assiduous Thomas does not forget all his triggers and return the harmless Squee back to his hand during his upkeep. Draw. Main phase. Attack phase...No Stop! Goyf has shrunken to 4/5, there is no more creature (read Squee) in the graveyards! At this stage, Dan had Chalices set at 1 & 2 so I decide to cast the tiny 1/1 Squee on the battlefield. Squee painfully brings Dan down to 4, too fu$%ing slow. Eventually, a gigantic Gargadon ends up trampling me over.
Note that I also made an unforgivable mistake in that game. A few turns before Chalice for 2 came into play, I forgot to flashback an Ancient Grudge from my graveyard. I was clearly too distracted tapping/sacking/returning stuff during my upkeep. FML

2nd Round: Toby (aka AUS TBoy) piloting Dredge
Game 1: Toby starts with Leyline of the Void and Bazaar! Two things:
-   First, who knew that Dredge was running Leyline main deck?
-   Second, I had my own Bazaar draw engine in my opening hand. FML
Dredge slaughters me quickly

I think I sideboard the following:
- 2 Pyroblast/REB
- 1 Life from the Loam
- 2 Goblin Welder
- 2 Ancient Grudge
- 2 Basking Rootwalla
- 3 Gorilla Shaman
+ 2 Deglamer
+ 3 Nature's Claim
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Tormod's Crypt
+ 2 Grafdigger's Cage
+ 1 Ravenous Trap
+ 1 Pirokinesis


Game 2: While shuffling, Stalker (who is watching the Game) and Toby (who is playing Stalker's deck) are both smiling. I start becoming inquisitive and then I said: "I'm sure you guys are running that new Dredge/Black aggro-ish list". I recently read about the deck, very smart like most of the transformational decks. In other words, it is a Dredge deck game 1 and then it becomes an Black aggro-ish deck game 2 (bob, ichorid, bloodghast...). Basically, 90% Game 1 win and then 90% Game 2 win because your opponent is sideboarding in 6 or 7 useless cards and then mulligans to oblivion in order to find 1 or 2 of these useless cards in his opening hand.
It turns out that I'm fairly right. I just forgot that it also sides in the DarkDepths/HexMage combo as well (also note that Dark Depth works like a charm with Putrefied Field!). Anyway, I think that I'm screwing his weak mana base, he hence struggles to put together a Marit Lage and I win that game. Long game though.

Game 3: 5 minutes to go. My deck can be very slow but I have great expectations.  I open with 2 Grafdigger's Cage, Tinker... First turn, Toby Cabals Therapy me naming Misstep! I'm like "Tob, should I have Misstep, I probably would have Misstepped your Therapy away!". Anyway, it's good fun.
Additional  Turn 0: I carefully cast Tinker/sacrificing a Cage in order to search for my big Myr Battesphere creature. Then I make sure to replay the 2nd Cage that I was holding since the beginning, just in case.
Additional Turn 2: Battlesphere deals 12 damages then Bazaar find me a Timewalk!
Additional Turn 3/TimeWalk Turn: Battlesphere beats again for the win! That game was intense. I'm exhausted.


3rd Round: Luke & Burn
Game 1: I beat down with 2 Gorilla. Luke is drawing Lands after Lands. Luke eventually finds a Grim Lavamancer when I'm on 5 life. I manage to Barbarian Ring away the Lava. Then for some unclear reasons I play a Mox Emerald, it immediately gets Smashed to Smithereens. What a muppet! I'm now on 2 life. I then fetched into a Volcanic Island in order to be able to hard cast my Misstep. Luke eventually draws a 3 mana cost burn and kills me when he's on 1 life. FML

I sideboard the following:
- 2 Goblin Welder
- 2 Pyroblast/REB
- 2 Ancient Grudge
+ 3 Nature's Claim (mainly to destroy my own artefacts and gain some life!)
+ 1 Pyrokinesis
+ 2 Surgical Extraction


Game 2: I play a first Turn 3/4 Tarmo using Lotus, etc... Quickly, the Tarmo becomes 5/6 and races Burn down but, Luke's Marauders and Lavamancers manage to slowing the Goyf down. Eventually, I slam a second Goyf on the table but it's too late, next turn Luke top decks a Chain Lightning. He was on 3.

4th Round: Paul (aka Noong) with GUw Meddling Mage Fish
At 1/2 my hopes for Top 4 are gone. I just meet Noong a couple of hours earlier. He's a oldy, who played on/off for the past 17 years. In other words, like me, but older, but still hairy, not bald like Socrates. Charming dude, very cool, we agree to have fun. Note that at this stage, he's my only unknown deck in the room.

Game 1: First turn, I Misstep Noble Hierarch. Ok, some kind of GUx Fish. My turn, I continue the Mana Screwing plan and waste away his Tropical Island. Then turn 3 or 4, I assemble the Vault/Key combo. Not ultra fun for a game that was meant to be fun.


I sideboard the following:
- 2 Rootwalla
- 1 Gorilla
- 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Pyrokinesis
+ 3 Magus of the Moon


Game 2: First turn, I Misstep Paul's ACall. Then follows a battle of Wastelands. Then Paul extracts my 4 Bazaars away. I do not feel bad about that as I have access to Life from the Loam to replay my Wastelands. Then, sticking to my Mana Screwing plan, I Pirokinesis away his lonely Hierarch. He is completely screwed, he has nothing on the board, etc... so I win. Not very fun indeed.

 
FEEDBACK ON THE DECK:
The deck is very versatile, with lot of stuff to do. The type of deck that is not really forgiving but very rewarding; just like I like.
 
The Bagdad engine is only a secondary support in order to filter and quickly draw into the relevant cards and maximize the efficient plays. I believe it is a decent deck as it stands though, I clearly lack more playtestings.
 
At the moment, I can not think of any modification in the main deck. I need to think more about the Magus of the Moon in the sideboard. They are meant to screw up the Jace decks and the Uxx fishy decks. I may be leaning toward some more Pirokinesis, but I need to do some testings.

The deck was primarily design to target Stax decks and the many multicolored Jace/Snappy decks that we have around. More play should tell me. With the help of Goyf, I think the deck can keep at bay the fishy decks. My plan against Oath is mana srewing and heavy sideboarding but, I never had the chance to test against. Gush should have problems against the mana screwing plan but I never had the chance to play against either. Against Dredge, I rely on 5 waste effects main deck and heavy sideboard. The deck would definitely struggle against all mono-coloured decks such as: elf, burn, merfolk... and, I think that I should worry about DarkDepths decks. To finish, it probably would have very little chances versus TPS type decks but I simply ignored this matchup.

The decks runs 12 Power cards so with very small adjustments you should be able to run it in 10-proxy tourneys.

Feedbacks / Questions are welcome
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 06:52:05 pm by tribet » Logged
msg67183
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 08:30:07 am »

After reading a lot about Dawn of the Dead and Bazaar Bob, I put together a list that I think could be playable in the current metagame. The list is above, where I had the original list.
Some notes:
Raven's Crime is pretty sweet, it lets me disrupt the opponent simply by having lands in hand.
Factory has proven its use in many decks.
Bloodghast seems like an auto include with high land count.
Mox Diamond is simply the best Mox for this deck, so I play them instead of the other moxen and it's not bad with high land count.
Any other questions are welcome, as are comments on the deck.
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msg67183
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2013, 08:38:50 am »

I was thinking something along the lines of:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine
4 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
3 Life from the Loam
4 Bloodghast
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Zombie Infestation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
3 Raven's Crime
1 Balance

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Ravenous Trap




To make it easier I thought I would just bring the list down for everyone.
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2013, 12:16:34 pm »

You should definitely 100% be running 4 Dark Confidant.  It also plays very well with Zombiefest/Bazaar/Raven's Crime.  I would probably go -2 Jotun Grunt (not what they used to be), -1 or 2 Duress, maybe -1 Zombiefest.

EDIT: I also just noticed that you are running rainbow lands.  As long as you are 5 color, why not add Ancestral Recall and Time Walk?  Also Wastelands instead of Factories.  Swords to Plowshares?  Stony Silence?  Moxen/Lotus?  Thalia? 
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2013, 01:17:02 pm »

A couple things I noticed about this list.
1. It dies a horrible death to Lodestone.  He spheres everything since you have no real moxen, and your really only way of killing him is having your opponent attack into your blockers.
2. Its heavily reliant on Life from the Loam, yet there are only 3 copies of loam.  Diamond, Zombie Infestation, and Raven's Crime are all pretty much useless without it.

I think this deck would be much better suited going even more land heavy and scrapping cards like bloodghast, squee, and balance.  This type of deck exists in legacy with some adjustments, like the addition of bazaar, I think it could be vintage playable.  Here are links to a couple lists...
Most recent top 8:  http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54223
With Raven's Crime Engine:  http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52072
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msg67183
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2013, 04:05:09 pm »

Lance, this isn't Lands, it's Dawn of the Dead.
I am not sure why you are trying to point me in this direction, although I have wanted to try and play vintage Lands.
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2013, 04:22:09 pm »

Lance, this isn't Lands, it's Dawn of the Dead.
I am not sure why you are trying to point me in this direction, although I have wanted to try and play vintage Lands.

Dawn of the Dead is completely different from the deck list you posted.  Its a deck that combines Bob and/or Goyf to generate an extremely fast clock speed.  Without bob and goyf your deck becomes something completely different.

Your deck list is centered around Life of the Loam.  So I was suggesting a deck design that was better at doing this.  As is your deck would have trouble beating combos, graveyard hate, spheres, and card advantage making it pretty bad against every deck in the format.
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2013, 09:46:09 pm »

Alright, you are right, it was a rough draft.
Looking over Lands I really kind of want to try and build a Vintage version of the deck.
I like the Grove/ Punishing Fire "Combo".
Obviously Vintage gives the deck Bazaars, and Fastbond, anything else?
Obviously more Graveyard hate, probably Bojuka Bog(s). Etc.
Do you think the deck could be playable?
Does anyone think it could work?
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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 10:12:10 pm »

Alright, you are right, it was a rough draft.
Looking over Lands I really kind of want to try and build a Vintage version of the deck.
I like the Grove/ Punishing Fire "Combo".
Obviously Vintage gives the deck Bazaars, and Fastbond, anything else?
Obviously more Graveyard hate, probably Bojuka Bog(s). Etc.
Do you think the deck could be playable?
Does anyone think it could work?

I can definitely see the deck having merit.  Since its structured around recurrable spells and lands, counterspells and spheres have very little effect on the deck.  This means if built correctly the deck can be amazing against both blue control, and workshops.

There are two big obstacles that I see for such a deck.
1. Its weakness to graveyard hate.  Loam, crucible, punishing fire, raven's crime, and bazaar all get hurt by it.
2. Beating broken decks.  The combo decks and dredge are going to be abysmal match ups without changes. 

For 1. you can add cards to reduce your graveyard dependence for games 2/3 and/or you can play enchantment hate.  If you look at both lists they board in Bobs and abrupt decays for games 2/3.  The bobs may be main deckable in vintage.

To handle 2. I'd probably main deck 4 chalice and a bojuka bog and then use whatever sideboard space is left to strengthen those match ups.
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 10:46:47 pm »

What cards come out of the Legacy version?
Would Stony Silence work against broken decks?
I'm not sure if Grove/ PF will work in vintage.
Maybe Barbarian Ring?
If we play Bazaar, is Intuition needed?


What would a Vintage list for Lands that you would play in a tournament look like?
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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2013, 04:06:51 pm »

What cards come out of the Legacy version?
Would Stony Silence work against broken decks?
I'm not sure if Grove/ PF will work in vintage.
Maybe Barbarian Ring?
If we play Bazaar, is Intuition needed?


What would a Vintage list for Lands that you would play in a tournament look like?

Here's what I would probably start with. 

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Strip Mine
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Null Rod
1 Zuran Orb
4 Exploration
2 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Fastbond
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Workshops should be pretty much a bye and fish should also be pretty easy.  What you would have to work out to make this deck work is an effective strategy to beat the decks that can "go broken".  Stoney silence would help if you could actually cast it.  This deck's mana can really only reliably generate green so null rod is a much better option. 
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tribet
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2013, 06:25:20 pm »

I like Tolaria West tech but it may be hard to cast especially since you're running Wastes, Mazes, Bazaars... I understand Chalice is in the Main but I think your list is begging for some Crop Rotation(s) and/or Enlightened Tutor(s)!

I'll try to gain a little bit of room in the main to increase the numbers of EE or Null Rods which would help versus "Broken Decks". Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge, Spell Pierce/Misstep, or even Standstill in the Main could also look good. Between 4*Maze of Ith+Karakas+Tabernable+Chasm+Punishing Fires+Z. Orb... it's pretty heavy against Dudes, I think you can make space there.

Academy Ruin is very slow & very narrow with your current artos package. I'm sure you'ld rather run more Crucibles all day. If you increase Crucible, maybe Reduce Loam. 3/3 may be is a good split and if you want to be cuter run Intuition: 2/2/2 split!

Chasm and Zuran Orb are only good once your Engine is up and running and are most probably "Win-More". You want stuff that do things on their own if not it may be too late for Vintage. You'ld rather bury your opponent under more EE/Strips/Trinisphere/SpellPierce/Grudge in the main

Why don't you max out the Bojuka Bog in the Side instead of Jailer?

You can't overlook opponent's Grave Hate. Maybe Chain of Vapours, Nature's Claim, Deglamer or Pithing Needles in the side...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 10:54:31 pm by tribet » Logged
tribet
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2013, 10:53:19 pm »

Academy Ruins can return a dying Mishra on top of Library, right? Still, it's a still bit too cute. Crucible does this better.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2013, 11:29:37 pm »

I was posting this more as a starting point for testing and a discussion.  As I haven't played the deck extensively I don't know whats necessary and whats extra so I didnt want to cut too many of the singletons from the legacy version.

I like Tolaria West tech but it may be hard to cast especially since you're running Wastes, Mazes, Bazaars... I understand Chalice is in the Main but I think your list is begging for some Crop Rotation(s) and/or Enlightened Tutor(s)!

With multiple bazaars and loam being able to dig for cards the deck rarely needs to tutor for something.  So tolaria west might not be need at all.  As far as tutors I think its the best option for this kind of deck.

Tolaria west has quite a few advantages over Etutor and Crop rotation.
1.  Its a land it can be played for mana and reccured by loam.
2.  Its a 1 for 1.  So I am not losing card advantage.
3.  Its transmute, not actually a spell, making it both uncounterable and unspherable.
4.  It can get a land or zuran orb or explosives.

I don't really think the deck needs any more tutors, but vamp and demonic would definitely be the first to make the list.  The deck doesn't play white for Etutor so that would be kind of difficult and crop rotation can only get lands.

I'll try to gain a little bit of room in the main to increase the numbers of EE or Null Rods which would help versus "Broken Decks". Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge, Spell Pierce/Misstep, or even Standstill in the Main could also look good. Between 4*Maze of Ith+Karakas+Tabernable+Chasm+Punishing Fires+Z. Orb... it's pretty heavy against Dudes, I think you can make space there.

The heavy dudes is definitely because this is coming from legacy.  I agree spots can be made there.  However, I don't really think standstill or competing on the stack are a good idea for this deck.  It would require it to drift far away from its primary game plan in order to run those type of cards.

Academy Ruin is very slow & very narrow with your current artos package. I'm sure you'ld rather run more Crucibles all day. If you increase Crucible, maybe Reduce Loam. 3/3 may be is a good split and if you want to be cutter run Intuition. 2/2/2 split!

Loam is the card that makes this deck.  Putting them into your hand allows you to use tolaria west, bazaar, and tranquil thickets.  

Putting those cards aside.  Crucible still has two pretty big weaknesses comparatively.
1. It can be destroyed or countered.
2. It can be copied by phyrexian metamorph.

Academy ruins is there to get back the critical artifacts that have been milled by loam.  Its not really there to be used a primary engine.  Bazaars do help to mitigate its weakness of only putting it on top.

Chasm and Zuran Orb are only good once your Engine is up and running and are most probably "Win-More". You want stuff that do things on their own if not it may be too late for Vintage. You'ld rather bury your opponent under more EE/Strips/Trinisphere/SpellPierce in the main

I agree these are probably the easiest cuts to make.  It does take out the two broken combos of the deck: Orb, Crucible, Fastbond and Chasm, Exploration, Loam.

Why don't you max out the Bojuka Bog in the Side instead of Jailer?

Bojuka bog is essentially a sorcery speed tormod's crypt that takes up land drops to use.  Comparatively to other graveyard hate the card is pretty terrible.  It's there more for anti crucible than anti dredge.

You can't overlook opponent's Grave Hate. Maybe Chain of Vapours, Nature's Claim, Deglamer or Pithing Needles in the side...

I didn't completely over look it.  Thoughtseizes can preemptively hit their grave hate, EE can blow up most permanent based hate, rod/needle can shut off artifact based hate, and bobs reduce the dependence on your graveyard.  One big advantage is that the 1. dredge hate card grafdigger's cage doesn't do anything against you.

I think this deck has a lot of different directions that it could go towards to try and become competitive with blue decks.  As is though I wouldn't play it unless I knew there was going to be 90% shops, fish, dredge at a tournament.
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msg67183
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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2013, 04:14:44 am »

So, if this deck is already good against dudes, then why play Grove/ PF? Against shops it seems horrible.
My changes to your list lance would have to be:
-3 Grove of the Burnwillows
-2 Punishing Fire
-1 Taiga
+2 Raven's Crime
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+1 Riftstone Portal
+2 Ghost Quarter

These changes allow for easier access to Black for Raven's Crime and the sideboard Bobs and Thoughtseizes,
As well as allow all your lands to tap for mana, and add disruption against broken decks. The Ghost Quarters add more pressure to the opponent's mana base.

Even if the opponent discards lands to Crime, then mana denial is working...
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2013, 08:47:31 am »

So, if this deck is already good against dudes, then why play Grove/ PF? Against shops it seems horrible.
My changes to your list lance would have to be:
-3 Grove of the Burnwillows
-2 Punishing Fire
-1 Taiga
+2 Raven's Crime
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+1 Riftstone Portal
+2 Ghost Quarter

These changes allow for easier access to Black for Raven's Crime and the sideboard Bobs and Thoughtseizes,
As well as allow all your lands to tap for mana, and add disruption against broken decks. The Ghost Quarters add more pressure to the opponent's mana base.

Even if the opponent discards lands to Crime, then mana denial is working...

Punishing fire isn't there as workshops hate.  It's there to beat bobs, meddling mages, deathrite shamans, and other ability creatures that will cause you issues.  Although slow its also an alternate win con and an alternate way to get cards back in hand for bazaar.  When you really think about it I'm not entirely sure what raven's crime does in vintage or even legacy for that matter.  Its an engine that doesn't become active until mid/late game at which point your opponents hand is probably going to be devoid of relevant cards.  It also increases the deck's dependence on loam. 

I'm currently testing main deck grudges to beat TV/key and trying out different lands in the deck.
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msg67183
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2013, 09:28:22 am »

What "other lands?"
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